[liquid]

It just recently came into my mind today. I remember reading from somewhere if a person are dieting/cutting. Their pwo shake should only consist of protein or 40grams+ and no carbs. Where if a person were trying to gain mass, they should aim for 30 gram of protein + and 60 grams of carbs.

Any truth in this?

[Link24]

I believe it is based on the individual....because everyones body reacts different to proteins carbs and fat. While cutting some people like to add fat to their Pwo shake even though many say that is a No No. So in reality just experiment with your body to you figure out what your body responds too

[Neil5585]

I'd say there is some truth to it, however it depends on some different factors:

1. Bodyfat. Someone that's cutting and is 25% doesn't need PWO carbs. If they need more glycogen, then glutamine/glycine PWO in high doses along with the whey. If someone is cutting from 10% to 6%, then they should DEFINITELY have carbs to maintain their muscle, metabolism, leptin, and fuel hard workouts.

2. Volume of work. If you're doing 5x5 hitting each "bodypart" once a week then you don't need much carbs. If you're doing hundreds of reps per workout you may need a lot of carbs. However this also goes along with number 1. An athlete that is lean and does good volume may need in 200g of fast carbs PWO. A fat guy that's 20+% BF and doing 5x5 taking in 50-100g carbs PWO is kidding himself and doing more harm than good.

[Socrates44]

All the carbs post workout are doing for individuals bulking is utilizing insulins anabolic effect. The insulin is high and carbs are broken to glucose which symports AA's with the glucose into the muscle tissue.

True, individuals who dont have lengthy or too indepth workouts dont need as much because they havent depleted their glycogen stores yet. However if a person does HIIT, you will need to glucose afterwords.


If you are over 25% BF or really sensitive to glucose i wouldnt really worry about though.

[zpnq]

Originally Posted by liquid

It just recently came into my mind today. I remember reading from somewhere if a person are dieting/cutting. Their pwo shake should only consist of protein or 40grams+ and no carbs. Where if a person were trying to gain mass, they should aim for 30 gram of protein + and 60 grams of carbs.

Any truth in this?

If you want to preserve muscle you should have carbs in your post work out shake/meal, but they should be good clean carbs like oats. This will give you a much needed insulin spike and stop your muscle from wasting away.

[Neil5585]

BCAAs spike insulin without the carbs....

You're not going to be losing muscle taking in BCAAs during a workout and skipping carbs.

[cranghel099]

i think it's important to take a look at the overall picture, if your tryin to lean out, then yes reduce your OVERALL carb intake, but carbs should not be completely depleted from your diet, especially before and after your weightlifting workout, consuming carbs during this time will not result in fat gain, if anything it will help with the maintance of muscle mass.

[Neil5585]

If eliminating PWO carbs for fatties didn't work in terms of leaning out faster and keeping muscle, I don't think Charles Poliquin would be doing it with his athletes or recommending it.

[Socrates44]

Originally Posted by Neil5585

BCAAs spike insulin without the carbs....

You're not going to be losing muscle taking in BCAAs during a workout and skipping carbs.

BCAA's are Amino Acids that can make either glucose or ketone bodies. So you actually might want to consider taking in BCAA's as a carb source, if you are sensitive or worried, especially if there is high valine content.

[Neil5585]

Socrates,

Does the same go for glutamine and glycine? I've heard that different enzyme pathways are activated with amino acids vs. carbs. Meaning insulin from whey, EAA, BCAAs, etc won't cause any fat gain vs. insulin in response to carbs.

[Rodja]

Originally Posted by Neil5585

Socrates,

Does the same go for glutamine and glycine? I've heard that different enzyme pathways are activated with amino acids vs. carbs. Meaning insulin from whey, EAA, BCAAs, etc won't cause any fat gain vs. insulin in response to carbs.

It's leucine that is responsible for this. It is the amino that can be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis. This is part of the reason that it is the trigger for protein synthesis and, also, insulin is much more complex that just GI.

[Socrates44]

Insulin is the main culprit in weight gain, whether good or bad. When you take in certain AA's (glucogenic) ones your body produces glucose from them. There are also ketogenic AA's, but that is another story. Circulating glucose in the blood passes by the pancreas and the pancreas determines if the levels are sufficient for anabolic processes. After a workout out you are very sensitive to insulin. You have just broken down muscle and your body is looking to replenish its stores of glycogen. Well glucose will be symported with AA's into the muscle cell. Well those crafty amino acids (glutamine is good at this) get transported into the muscle cell with the glycogen and help the repair process of muscle.

Insulin is ubiquitous in its effects it will always do the same thing no matter what it is triggered by it, its job is anabolism. Its counterpart is glucagon (both are produced by the pancrease; insulin from beta cells, glucagon from delta cells).


The whole process is very complex with tons of intermediates and complex pathways but when insulin is high (after workouts) and you want to build muscle I would use equal amounts of BCAA's and hydrolyzed whey peptide with a high glycemic carb. (dextrose). If you are insulin sensitive you can get away with just the BCAA's because some of them are converted to glucose. Hope that helped without being too drawn out.

[Bruth]

Originally Posted by Rodja

It's leucine that is responsible for this. It is the amino that can be converted to glucose via gluconeogenesis. This is part of the reason that it is the trigger for protein synthesis and, also, insulin is much more complex that just GI.

I thought Leucine was one of the few AA that does not readily convert to glucose.

[liquid]

Thank you all for the very informative info.

[Socrates44]

Originally Posted by Bruth

I thought Leucine was one of the few AA that does not readily convert to glucose.

You are correct. Isoleucine can be used for ketone production and glucose production. Valine is the purely glucogenic AA. Leucine is the purely ketogenic. Good catch.