Low Carb Diets and re-feeds.
- 01-22-2008, 01:41 PM
Low Carb Diets and re-feeds.
I was wondering if someone could give me some advice. I am currently trying to drop some fat and I am using a timed carb style diet. I only eat carbs with a shake after work outs M, W, F.
I want to try to keep as much muscle as I can, but honestly do not care if I lose a few. How critical is it to have carbs after a workout? I am obviously taking into reduced calories so I doubt I am build much muscle. The issue is that I seem to feel run down the days after using carbs. It is almost like I am starting the phase-in process over again.
I current eat @ 2100kCal (10% CHO, 40% FAT, 50% PR0). My PWO shakes consist of about 60 CHO. My total CHO intake is about 30g on off days and 90-100g on workout days.
Stats are 200 (23% BF) down from 280 (?? BF) 38" waist. 15.5 neck. My goal is to get to at least 15%. It would be nice to get lower, but I honestly do not desire to get below 10% or maintain a lower BF %.
I am losing about 2 lbs per week and have been in the 2-4 range per week since August. I started supplementing with BCAAs this week, but otherwise I have not taken any supplements besides whey protein.
Is it alright to just drop the carbs totally, or do I need some sort of re-feed? Also if something seems off with my program any advice would help.
- 01-22-2008, 04:57 PM
I would suggest at least having one carb up MEAL once a week just to keep the metabolism revving, restore some glycogen, and restore leptin levels. I tried to PWO carbs as well and when I took them out, i noticed a difference in fat loss and the recovery wasn't hindered so I stuck with no carbs PWO. Try it and see if you notice a difference. I also replaced my PWO shake with sipping on 5-6 scoops of Xtend during the workout. Honeslty I havent lost any lean mass whatsoever and I have been preparing for a contest the past 10 weeks.
Check out this web site, it should clear up alot of questions
01-25-2008, 09:55 AM
01-25-2008, 10:00 AM
01-25-2008, 11:22 AM
01-25-2008, 01:01 PM
hey im no pro. but i think the statement carbs arnt needed for ur health is a bit extreme. that means no veggies or fruit. both of which are a great source of health.
01-25-2008, 01:27 PM
I'm not saying its easy to maintain good health that way, as there are lots of nutrients you need to add as supplements, but its even used in the medical field (diets without carbs)
but all of your organs are capable of functioning without any carbs given enough proteins + fats. Takes a week or so of adaptation, then your brain even is at full capacity
01-25-2008, 01:41 PM
You will be just fine without carbs all day long and post workout. Keep your calories and protein sufficient and you will be fine.
At your bodyfat you can get by without a refeed as long as you see that the weight and fat is still coming off.
Once things stall give yourself a good and hardy refeed meal (usually feast at a buffet) of primarily complex carbohydrates and a good amount of protein. Avoid sugars. Try not to consume too much fat during that meal.
Ideally you should place that meal within a 12-18 hours window prior to your next workout, which should be planned to be of moderate to high intensity. Not a bad idea to follow it with a 30 mins cardio session as well.
Then cycle back into your restriced carbs diet. You can probably get by with doing this every two or three weeks but gage your progress ofter your week following the refeed. You may not need it as often. Usually after you get leaner you will need it more frequently, but right now I would think that you will do fine with a larger period between them.
Note that you will hold a lot of water weight and the scale will probably move upward afterwards and stay that way for a day or two or more. Once you get depleted again you will drop out the weight and you will be on your way to continued fat loss for a while. gage your progress and repeat when desired.
01-25-2008, 01:48 PM
The statement that carbs are not necessary for healthy functioning is maybe a little extreme, but it is true that carbs are not as necessary as everyone thinks. They only part of your body that runs solely on glucose are red blood cells. However your body can break down gluconeogenic amino acids like alanine to produce glucose for red blood cells. However there have been some studys stating that staying on a ketogenic diet for too long is hard on your heart.
Another common misconception is that dietary fats lead to fat storage. It is actually glucose and insulin that cause fat storage. Excess glucose is converted into something called a chylomicron. This huge molecule is similar to LDL's and HDL's and carries almost 90% of its weight as Triacylglycerides. There molecules are bind to adipose tissue and deposit there nasty little payload: TG or fat.
01-26-2008, 01:37 PM
Hello all: I have a question. I know that we should incorporate into our diets cheat-meals (refeed-meals) as part of our weight loss regimen, as a tool to give us a rest, give us some fuel into our tired and hungry depleted systems and brain. And as a relaxation, anti-depressant tool.
However, wouldn't 1 cheat refeed meal a day hinder the caloric-deficit that we are trying to work so hard for.
I mean isn't it better to have 1 refeed cheat meal once a month, instead of once a week?
01-26-2008, 01:43 PM
Anything done daily whether of poor food choice or that creates a surplus of calories is going to be counter productive.
01-26-2008, 02:22 PM
I would never advacate a CHEAT meal. People think, "cheat", they think pizza and ice cream. If you were to cheat, my advice would be to cheat with amounts of food. Instead of one cup of oats, have two cups, with raising and natural peanut butter thrown in.
The problem I had with having CHEAT days was it made the rest of the 6 days miserable for me because I awakened my taste buds again into thinking all that tasted so good. Just my two cents.
01-26-2008, 02:31 PM
01-26-2008, 11:12 PM
01-27-2008, 12:00 AM
We have a lot of speculations and theories and casual terms like cheat meals being used here.
A refeed (or a carb-up) is a strategic plan with a purpose.
This is probably the most critical part of the CKD. The carb up phase
accomplishes two things:
1. rebuilds any muscle that might be lost during the week due to the
anabolic processes related to cell hydration
2. refills muscle glycogen stores for the first workouts of the next week
allowing you to train intensely enough to avoid muscle loss while on low
There are two approaches to the carb-up phase:
1. Subjective approach: with this approach, you simply carb to your hearts
content UNTIL you begin to feel yourself spilling water over to the skin
(i.e. you'll get bloated and smooth). This indicates that muscle glycogen
stores are full and additional carbs will go to the fat cells. The types
of carbs you consume (simple sugars vs. complex carbs) will, to a great
degree, determine how quickly your muscle cells become full.
This approach also allows you to dial in your pre-contest carbing up to
see how your body will respond and what type of carb-up will make you look
the best. To enhance fat loss, it is recommended that you do not carb for
more than 24-36 total hours. This turns the diet into 6 days of low carb
and 1 day of carbing. And, again, more days in ketosis means more fat
For those who need to lose fat very quickly, carbing every other weekend
can have very positive results although it's not as much fun. In this
case, I'd suggest one concentrated carb meal one hour in length right after
Friday's workout and then go immediately back to low carbs. Unless you
really overdo it, you will probably spike yourself back into ketosis by
Saturday morning. The training structure for this approach might be:
Mon: chest and back
Tue: legs and abs
Thu: delts and arms
Fri, Sat, Sun: cardio (have your once concentrated carb meal on one of
Mon: legs, back and bis
Tue: chest, delts, tris, abs
Fri: high rep depletion workout, begin carbing
The benefits of such an approach are relatively greater fat loss since you
spend proportionally more time (10 days out of 14 vs. 8 days out of 14 if
you carb every weekend) in ketosis. The cons are that it's rather boring
and there may be a greater potential for muscle loss. Again,
experimentation (and frequent body composition measures are key).
2. Objective approach: this approach is much more specific. After glycogen
depletion, the muscles can handle 16 grams of carb/kg of lean body mass
during the first 24 hours and 9 grams of carbs/kg lean body mass during the
second 24. In terms of amounts and quality of carbs, you should emphasize
lots of high glycemic index carbs at the beginning of the carb load and
shift to lower amounts of lower glycemic index carbs towards the end. For
very specific recommendations as to quantity and quality of carbs during
the carb-up, check out Dan Duchaine's Bodyopus book.
During the carb-up phase, several other things are important:
1. Protein: you should consume 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight
(or per pound of lean body mass) divided evenly across each 24 hours.
2. Fat: you should consume approximately 15% of your total calories as
essential fatty acids (flax oil, olive oil and walnuts are good sources)
especially near the end of the carb up to slow digestion.
3. Water: for every gram of carbs you consume, you need to consume 3-4
grams of water for optimal refilling of the muscles. This works out to 10
cups of water for a carb intake of 600 grams per day. Unless you're doing
the final carb-up for your contest, I suggest drinking as much water as you
can put down.[/quote]
185lb = 1300g of carbs in 1st 24 hours = 5200 additional calories from carbs alone in the first 24 hours
185lb = 750g of carbs in 2nd 24 hours = 3000 additional calories from carbs alone in the second 24 hours
Unless there is some sort of order or strategy all that is being achieved with a cheat meal is a break from discipline and the ability to just eat whatever you want because you feel like it without any real structure or goal or intention. /end rant
01-27-2008, 09:32 AM
I dont think I could put down 1300g of complex carbs in 24 hours. 100g of oats every 75 minutes while i'm awake would suck
01-27-2008, 10:17 AM
That is from Lyle McDonald BodyOpus which he got from Duchaine and then I believe he made it more appealing to the masses and called it the Ketogenic Diet and or the CKD.
If you can follow it closely it is very effective. The keto period is like any other but the depletion and then refeed period followed by the refeed training can be a bit anal. But if you are able to adhere even closely the carbohydrate supracompensation is anabolic insanity. Literally an 1-1.5" on your arms in a 24-48 hour period after refeed. You go from depleted and flat to skin stretching swollen-ness. Its fun.
It was the first 'bodybuilding' diet I followed and it help me form the foundation of my militant style eating lifestyle.
[ame="http://www.amazon.com/Underground-Bodyopus-Militant-Weight-Recomposition/dp/0965310701"]Amazon.com: Underground Bodyopus: Militant Weight Loss & Recomposition: Daniel Duchaine: Books[/ame]
01-27-2008, 10:27 AM
one thing that i think we are losing touch with, is it sounds like 0x29a hasn't done this before and is trying to do VERY low carbs and/or no carbs. One thing that may help your sanity in the beginning, 0x, is to do carbs about 30-45 mins PRE-workout. This will help send the glycogen to the muscle where you want it and not stored as fat. Xtend is a GREAT ADDITION to help maintain muscle mass and then the absence of a POST-workout meal would help you burn more fat calories after your workout. That may help you in the beginning. I jsut experimented last week with VERY LOW cals and VERY LOW carbs, keeping protein high, and my workouts SUCKED. I was trying the Fast fat loss plan by lyle mcdonald.
Very good info in here. Seems there are ALOT of "quickly lose fat" threads lately and people wanting to do low/no carbs, metabolic diet/anabolic diet, etc..... maybe we need some stickies on the topics?
01-27-2008, 10:40 AM
01-27-2008, 11:14 AM
I think low fat refeeds suck for me.
I like pizza, burgers, etc for boosting metabolism sometimes when dieting.
01-27-2008, 01:00 PM
Feel free to contribute!!!maybe we need some stickies on the topics?
I'll review and stick if appropriate.
EDIT: no private purchase .pdf's and the likes.
Here's an other:
01-27-2008, 02:11 PM
01-27-2008, 02:39 PM
The re-feeds started making me sick after the first few weeks. So im doing a TKD now. Just some WMS around my workout and thats it. Pumps are crazy, strength is stil there, and im losing fat.
Then once baseball season kicks into high gear Ill go back to the CKD. Loading on Sunday, our off day. Keeping workouts short and sweet during the week so Im fine during games but not lose much strength of muscle.
Serious Nutrition Solutions Representative
01-27-2008, 05:15 PM
01-27-2008, 05:20 PM
I also enjoyed the comma that would ensue
I learned an awful lot about dieting from that book. I have Lyle's others as well.
I now practice TC(carb)D all year long. The amount the amount of carbs varies by goals
01-27-2008, 05:25 PM
01-27-2008, 09:47 PM
Hello, well i am planing for once a month refeed meals of around 2000 calories. Here is a cheat-meal that i have planned for that day:
pretty cool, well i have a slow metabolism so i cannot eat a lot. But i managed to do 1 cheat-meal, once a month to jumpstart my metabolism. I will do this cheat meal once a month, the last day of every month, 30th or 31st, and it will be like this:
16 oz of baked chicken: 700 calories
3 mexican wheat tortillas 300 calories
A soy-protein pancake: 600 calories
1/2 cup of white flour: 200
2 scoops of soy protein: 200
1 cup of egg beaters: 100
1 cup of milk 100
2 teaspoon of baking powder 0
1/2 cup of water 0
5 packets of equal sugar 0
Mix all ingredients real well, add water if u like or a little bit of white flour for more thickness, put cooking spray into a pan, and cook as a pancake, eat with the ricota, cheese, eggs, ham, cream cheese, or subsitute those 400 calories for other topping, like light syrup, jelly, peanut butter jam, etc.
400 calories of ricota or filadelfia cream cheese
Chicken and 3 tortillas 1000
Total number of calories for that cheat meal: 2000
I will do this once a month, every 31 or 30 of every month
01-28-2008, 05:29 PM
Well maybe not losing touch, but it has been an informative tangent. Basically I was doing a form of the TKD I suppose. Post workout out carbs only. However I have noticed that on the mornings following a workout, my energy levels and my mood plummets. I am perfectly fine leading up, and during the workout. It just feels like I am starting from day one on no-carbs again the next morning when I go back to the diet. When I forgo the post work out shakes and do a no-carb style for a week or more, I don't seem to have the loss of energy or mood swings.
I was really just worried about the PWO re-feed and building/maintaining what little muscle I can during a calorie deficit. I do not want to sabatoge my work in the gym unless I have to. I don't plan on being on this style of diet more than 12 weeks, then I will ease back into a maintenance 40/40/20 or 30/30/30 split.
So far the thread has been great. I have not had any significant carbs in the last 7 days, and I will try a PWO meal on Friday to see how I respond over the weekend.
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