Carb Cycling

[kraftkid]

I have used variations of aitkens diets in the past that have worked well for weigth loss, but they also ruin my gym workouts.

I am interested in trying carb cycling, but of all the programs i have found via search etc, they vary WIDELY in terms of carbs suggested, days at each intake level, fish oil inclusion, etc.

Does anyone have real life experience with a specific approach, the results they attained, mistakes made, etc?

I know there are a lot of people interested in this topic and would really appreciate you sharing your experience.

 

[LilPsychotic]

This is what works for me when I start dieting in the spring. I sort of diet in the off season, but cheat more frequently around the holidays and such. I tend to start serious dieting around spring break (March). The idea behind cycling carbs is the body will burn off fat when glycogen is depleted. However there is a trick to it, you can't go low carb everyday or else you will lose significant muscle mass and just generally feel like sh*t. So in order to avoid or at least minimize that factor, you need to cycle carbs. For simplicity, say you start on a Monday. Now this is what I do, depending on your body weight, you may have to modify it. Now, I weigh 180ish, but will drop down to 165ish in the spring. Monday-Wed Moderate carb days 150-200g/day range. Thurs/Fri Low carb <30g. Saturday/Sunday High carb > 500g/day and perhaps a cheat on either of these days. Now you can get deeper into it to achieve greater fat loss more rapidly, for example go 4 low days, tues-fri then bring glycogen stores back up over the weekend with two high carb days, do a moderate on monday, and go low again for the remainder of the work week. The more low days you have, the more drastic the effects will be. However 2 low days is sufficient for me to keep fat off. The key to carb cycling is the high days, that bring everything back up. You do feel like sh*t on the low days however, that is unavoidable. This method works though, if you stick with it. Great for contest prep.

 

[rpen22]

I imagine from the fish oil comment that you've read about Twin Peak's carb cycling. I actually just started that version today.

 

[kraftkid]

I imagine from the fish oil comment that you've read about Twin Peak's carb cycling. I actually just started that version today.

That and some Dr Dipasquale talkes about it.

 

[kraftkid]

This is what works for me when I start dieting in the spring. I sort of diet in the off season, but cheat more frequently around the holidays and such. I tend to start serious dieting around spring break (March). The idea behind cycling carbs is the body will burn off fat when glycogen is depleted. However there is a trick to it, you can't go low carb everyday or else you will lose significant muscle mass and just generally feel like sh*t. So in order to avoid or at least minimize that factor, you need to cycle carbs. For simplicity, say you start on a Monday. Now this is what I do, depending on your body weight, you may have to modify it. Now, I weigh 180ish, but will drop down to 165ish in the spring. Monday-Wed Moderate carb days 150-200g/day range. Thurs/Fri Low carb <30g. Saturday/Sunday High carb > 500g/day and perhaps a cheat on either of these days. Now you can get deeper into it to achieve greater fat loss more rapidly, for example go 4 low days, tues-fri then bring glycogen stores back up over the weekend with two high carb days, do a moderate on monday, and go low again for the remainder of the work week. The more low days you have, the more drastic the effects will be. However 2 low days is sufficient for me to keep fat off. The key to carb cycling is the high days, that bring everything back up. You do feel like sh*t on the low days however, that is unavoidable. This method works though, if you stick with it. Great for contest prep.

Thanks LilP. Actually a Bengals fan, but was pulling for you against the Pats.

How do you match up your carb days with workouts? Both weights and cardio. I don't mind cardio at all. I am 230 and want to get to 215. I have my workouts dialed in, supps etc. Just a novice at c cycling.

 

[rpen22]

Well, if you haven't already, I suggest reading through these. TP lays his version out pretty well.


http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par30.htm

http://www.mindandmuscle.net/articles/twin_peak/carbohydrate_cycling_2

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/par49.htm

 

[Botch]

That and some Dr Dipasquale talkes about it.

That is the perfect place to start. Dr Dipasquale is very knowledgable. Most of the cyclic carb diets you see are variations of the Anabolic Diet which he created. If you haven't already checked this out, you should start reading it.. (even the first 20 or so pages is PACKED with info. and will teach you a great deal) http://www.t-nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do;jsessionid=5B882D7C2C9DC9BA9EA351EDB93C5058.hydra?id=658379&pageNo=0 Here you will learn a LOT about the anabolic diet if that is the lifestyle you choose to pursue.. and I for one, love eating this way.

 

[LilPsychotic]

Thanks LilP. Actually a Bengals fan, but was pulling for you against the Pats.

How do you match up your carb days with workouts? Both weights and cardio. I don't mind cardio at all. I am 230 and want to get to 215. I have my workouts dialed in, supps etc. Just a novice at c cycling.

Yeah, you just reminded me to change my avatar. New England is just too damn good. Certainly a team that I love to hate. Anyway, about the fish oils, depending on how you drop your fat cals on this diet supplementing a healthy oil is not a bad idea. On my low carb days, I basically eat egg whites, xtra lean ground beef of turkey, and a couple pieces of cheese. My skin dries out if I don't take flaxseed oil several times a day because of the lack of fat in the diet. The less fat you eat, the leaner you'll become. I just choose flaxseed over fish because I hate the fish burps, but either is fine. I take about 6g/day. Also, a tablespoon of a good peanut butter will give add some healthy fats, and help with the carb cravings.

 

[LilPsychotic]

Thanks LilP. Actually a Bengals fan, but was pulling for you against the Pats.

How do you match up your carb days with workouts? Both weights and cardio. I don't mind cardio at all. I am 230 and want to get to 215. I have my workouts dialed in, supps etc. Just a novice at c cycling.

I workout the smaller muscle groups on low days arms and shoulders, and save legs for the high days. Cardio depends. On the off season I do 20 min 3x/week. In the spring I do up to 5 hours/week. 1/2 hour 1st thing in the morning, and last thing at night 5 days a week, usually monday through friday.

 

[kraftkid]

That is the perfect place to start. Dr Dipasquale is very knowledgable. Most of the cyclic carb diets you see are variations of the Anabolic Diet which he created. If you haven't already checked this out, you should start reading it.. (even the first 20 or so pages is PACKED with info. and will teach you a great deal) http://www.t-nation.com/tmagnum/readTopic.do;jsessionid=5B882D7C2C9DC9BA9EA351EDB93C5058.hydra?id=658379&pageNo=0 Here you will learn a LOT about the anabolic diet if that is the lifestyle you choose to pursue.. and I for one, love eating this way.

Botch, what schedule are you on? I just read like 80 pages and am only a third of the way thru. Seems like there are lots of variants on that link.

what ratios are you using for protein/carbs/fats? And your overlying calorie goals when cutting?

Help would be much appreciated since you have real experience with it.

 

[Botch]

Botch, what schedule are you on? I just read like 80 pages and am only a third of the way thru. Seems like there are lots of variants on that link.

what ratios are you using for protein/carbs/fats? And your overlying calorie goals when cutting?

Help would be much appreciated since you have real experience with it.

First of all, I am not an expert on this diet and I have only been AD'ing for a little over 6 weeks. However, I have been reading TONS of research on the subject. This diet is still very new to me I am still playing with the ratios. Also, keep in mind what works for me may not work for you.. you've gotta find your own sweet spot.

I started the diet eating a ratio of 35%Pro/60%Fat/5%Carbs but after gaining a few lbs of fat at the beginning and since then learning that this diet is extremely protein sparing I have cut the ratio back to 25%Pro/70%Fat/5%Carbs. I also cut back processed foods such as bacon and sausage and upped my extra virgin olive oil intake. Since making these changes I have noticed a reduction in bodyfat while in a caloric surplus. I have also been experimenting with different types of carbs and eating different amounts of carbs on the weekend (for example, last weekend I ate ~12,000 calories ). I am currently bulking so unfortunately I will not be of too much assistance with cutting.

Regardless of whether your goal is to bulk or to cut with this diet, you should follow the diet strict for the first 4 weeks at maintainance cals and then you can start to cut and manipulate parts of the diet (such as pro/fat ratios, sources of fats, daily carb intake, types of food eaten during the carb-ups, duration of carb-up, etc.). First your body must become fat adapted. Since I have no real world experience with cutting on this diet you must take my advice with a grain of salt. But what I have seen work very well for other people who cut on this diet is to do caloric cycling during the week and limiting your carb-up to only one day a week.

I hope that was at least semi-helpful.. let me know if you have any more questions since there are a lot of different aspects of this diet to be covered.

 

[kraftkid]

First of all, I am not an expert on this diet and I have only been AD'ing for a little over 6 weeks. However, I have been reading TONS of research on the subject. This diet is still very new to me I am still playing with the ratios. Also, keep in mind what works for me may not work for you.. you've gotta find your own sweet spot.

I started the diet eating a ratio of 35%Pro/60%Fat/5%Carbs but after gaining a few lbs of fat at the beginning and since then learning that this diet is extremely protein sparing I have cut the ratio back to 25%Pro/70%Fat/5%Carbs. I also cut back processed foods such as bacon and sausage and upped my extra virgin olive oil intake. Since making these changes I have noticed a reduction in bodyfat while in a caloric surplus. I have also been experimenting with different types of carbs and eating different amounts of carbs on the weekend (for example, last weekend I ate ~12,000 calories ). I am currently bulking so unfortunately I will not be of too much assistance with cutting.

Regardless of whether your goal is to bulk or to cut with this diet, you should follow the diet strict for the first 4 weeks at maintainance cals and then you can start to cut and manipulate parts of the diet (such as pro/fat ratios, sources of fats, daily carb intake, types of food eaten during the carb-ups, duration of carb-up, etc.). First your body must become fat adapted. Since I have no real world experience with cutting on this diet you must take my advice with a grain of salt. But what I have seen work very well for other people who cut on this diet is to do caloric cycling during the week and limiting your carb-up to only one day a week.

I hope that was at least semi-helpful.. let me know if you have any more questions since there are a lot of different aspects of this diet to be covered.

No worries Botch, dont expect you to be an expert. Did you use weight x's 18 at your maintanence calories?

How did you have to manage your workouts the first few weeks as you got used to it?

 

[Botch]

No worries Botch, dont expect you to be an expert. Did you use weight x's 18 at your maintanence calories?

How did you have to manage your workouts the first few weeks as you got used to it?

I did start at 18x bodyweight. For the first week I stuck with my normal routine and didn't have any problems putting up my usual numbers until the end of the week when I felt the need to go a little lighter on squats. The second week I was doing fine with my normal routine until Thursday hit and suddenly I became a sloppy mess. I could barely get myself up to go to school or do anything. My workout suffered that day but I just did what I could. By the next day I was feeling 100% better and able to do my normal workout. Overall during the first two weeks workouts I noticed an increase in sweating and an increase in muscle soreness after workouts. But workouts were easier than I initially thought they would be during the break-in period.. until you crash, which will only last for about a day (and a lot of people don't get hit as hard as I did anyway).

 

[Botch]

I see you've done atkins type diets in the past. Are you currently low-carbing right now? If so, you will have a much easier time with the break-in period than I did. I went from a diet of 500+ carbs a day straight into the AD, which made the transition rather difficult.

 

[Ubiquitous]

Try and see how different variations work on you as an individual.

I have been doing a manner of low carb, CKD dieting for many years. When I started doing it, I didn't even realize what was working or what the science was behind it. I just did it out of intuition..

There was a time where I was in ketosis for months on end. I was emaciated, extremely low body fat. I started using refeeds and after a while my LBM shot back up. Ketosis doesn't necessarily ruin your workouts, it ruins your muscular endurance.. just drop the volume, but keep the intensity and frequency the same. You will feel lethargic during the first stages of ketosis but trust me your energy levels will come back if you keep at it. When you do it in a cyclical manner, unfortunately you will have one day a week of lethargy.

Some people do well with a 5 day deplete, 2 day recomp. Dan Duchaine and Lyle McDonald used this type of approach. Dr. Pasquale is indeed very knowledgeable in regards to diets as well.

Usually I vary my diet depending on my ever-changing goals. Sometimes I prefer to be leaner, other times I prefer to gain more LBM. You can do both at the same time, but to do so will just slow the speed of progress. If you're patient, then it's perfect.

 

[kraftkid]

I see you've done atkins type diets in the past. Are you currently low-carbing right now? If so, you will have a much easier time with the break-in period than I did. I went from a diet of 500+ carbs a day straight into the AD, which made the transition rather difficult.

500! Yeah, I have been relatively no carb for a while. Recently, I moved them up to 200-300 and it def improved my energy, etc. I am very carb sensitive, so have to be careful, but that is also why i am so interested in this diet.

 

[freezito]

this is the info ive been looking for, thaks guys. I think im going to give carb cycling a try

 

[dsade]

I found Twin Peak's Carb Cycling plan to be effective and very easy to follow...without my workouts suffering much at all.

 

[T-Bone]

I had been on The Metabolic Diet for years, before a short time off of it for about a month. It really sucked when I was off of it. Anyway, The Metabolic Diet is great. I am back on it now, on The Assesment Phase. Yes Anabolic Diet is its former name. Dr. Di Pasquale is great. I recommend purchasing The Metabolic Diet book. There is more to the diet than you think, a lot of details are in the book. The time I was on the diet Mauro will help you out through emails, and you can read a lot on the website. He even helped me out a few times on the phone personally. That is pretty impressive to me. It didn't cost any money to get his personal advice either. He has a few variations of the diet. He also has a book specific to bodybuilders, and one specific to powerlifters. The Metabolic Diet book is the core of the rest of the diets though. I truely stand behind this diet. Can't say enough good things about it.

http://www.metabolicdiet.com/start_diet.htm

https://www.mdplusstore.com/listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=20

 

[kraftkid]

I had been on The Metabolic Diet for years, before a short time off of it for about a month. It really sucked when I was off of it. Anyway, The Metabolic Diet is great. I am back on it now, on The Assesment Phase. Yes Anabolic Diet is its former name. Dr. Di Pasquale is great. I recommend purchasing The Metabolic Diet book. There is more to the diet than you think, a lot of details are in the book. The time I was on the diet Mauro will help you out through emails, and you can read a lot on the website. He even helped me out a few times on the phone personally. That is pretty impressive to me. It didn't cost any money to get his personal advice either. He has a few variations of the diet. He also has a book specific to bodybuilders, and one specific to powerlifters. The Metabolic Diet book is the core of the rest of the diets though. I truely stand behind this diet. Can't say enough good things about it.

http://www.metabolicdiet.com/start_diet.htm

https://www.mdplusstore.com/listCategoriesAndProducts.asp?idCategory=20

This is good to hear. I ordered both books (met diet + bodybuilding version) yesterday from Amazon. Just got all the goods today at the grocery store today. Giving it a whirl!

 

[T-Bone]

This is good to hear. I ordered both books (met diet + bodybuilding version) yesterday from Amazon. Just got all the goods today at the grocery store today. Giving it a whirl!

Excellent, let me know how it goes!

 

[rpen22]

I found Twin Peak's Carb Cycling plan to be effective and very easy to follow...without my workouts suffering much at all.

I'm a notorious calorie counter and like having a plan for my diet, so these high carb, eat till you're satisfied-days are very new to me, but I think I'll like it in the long run. I am enjoying the fruit at every carb meal too, because I'm not used to eating ANY fruit(yeah, I know). At least the reasoning behind it all makes sense to me, especially after reading through Caleb's old Leptin articles.

Steve is very friendly as well and was kind enough to look over my plan through PMs.

 

[kraftkid]

I'm a notorious calorie counter and like having a plan for my diet, so these high carb, eat till you're satisfied-days are very new to me, but I think I'll like it in the long run. I am enjoying the fruit at every carb meal too, because I'm not used to eating ANY fruit(yeah, I know). At least the reasoning behind it all makes sense to me, especially after reading through Caleb's old Leptin articles.

Steve is very friendly as well and was kind enough to look over my plan through PMs.

Let us know how it goes. I have the same issues with eating saturated fats. It's counterintuitive to years of "sat fat is bad" thinking. I am still trying to get the bulk of my fat from fish oil, flax etc.

Although i had bacon for the first time in literally ten years this AM and i thought i was in heaven!

 

[Botch]

Let us know how it goes. I have the same issues with eating saturated fats. It's counterintuitive to years of "sat fat is bad" thinking. I am still trying to get the bulk of my fat from fish oil, flax etc.

Although i had bacon for the first time in literally ten years this AM and i thought i was in heaven!

Seriously man, its great to be able to eat saturated fats now without the worry. Eggs for breakfast and steak for dinner...this is the life! My only regret is that I didn't get a blood test right before starting the diet to see how much my hormone profile improves (as well as lipids and triglycerides).

 

[celc5]

Fantastic discussion fellas!

Any of you ever use carb cycling for recomp?

Ubiquitous eluded to patience in this case. I'm currently recomping with 40/40/20 ratio and about 12 or 13 cals per pound at 200 pounds (around 2250 cals). The gains are seeming to slow and I'm just browsing for a bit of a boost.

 

[drewh10987]

Fantastic discussion fellas!

Any of you ever use carb cycling for recomp?

Ubiquitous eluded to patience in this case. I'm currently recomping with 40/40/20 ratio and about 12 or 13 cals per pound at 200 pounds (around 2250 cals). The gains are seeming to slow and I'm just browsing for a bit of a boost.

I've never tried carb cycling myself but here is an article I found on T-Nation and he describes it as being great for a recomp.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=811783

 

[rpen22]

The way I'm doing it is for somewhat of a recomp/mass phase effect. Really, with Twin Peak's style, it's pretty much the same diet set up, just a different amount of High/Low/No carb days per week making the difference between cut and mass phase.

 

[kraftkid]

Seriously man, its great to be able to eat saturated fats now without the worry. Eggs for breakfast and steak for dinner...this is the life! My only regret is that I didn't get a blood test right before starting the diet to see how much my hormone profile improves (as well as lipids and triglycerides).

Just got The Metabolic Diet and The Anabolic Solution for Bodybuilders in the mail today. Starting on that tonight.

Another sub 20gm carb day today. I'm pretty used to low carbs, so I am hoping I don't crash during the initial shift to using fats for energy. Ten days to go!

 

[T-Bone]

Just got The Metabolic Diet and The Anabolic Solution for Bodybuilders in the mail today. Starting on that tonight.

Another sub 20gm carb day today. I'm pretty used to low carbs, so I am hoping I don't crash during the initial shift to using fats for energy. Ten days to go!

You won't. It gets better and worse, depending on the person. I do my first carb up on this coming Sunday. As I said before I went off the diet for about 1.5-2 months and gained a buttload and my IBS symptoms started back up again really bad. Now though the IBS symptoms are pretty much completely gone, I have 10 times the energy I had while I was eating carbs, and feel thiner already!. I am so used to this diet though because I have been on it for 5 years straight, minus this past screw up. After a while you won't even want carbs anymore. The craving just goes away. Look on page 98 of The Metabolic Diet for info if you are feeling like crashing. Also remember a lot of people feel better eating steak and red meats while on the assesment phase of the diet.

 

[kraftkid]

You won't. It gets better and worse, depending on the person. I do my first carb up on this coming Sunday. As I said before I went off the diet for about 1.5-2 months and gained a buttload and my IBS symptoms started back up again really bad. Now though the IBS symptoms are pretty much completely gone, I have 10 times the energy I had while I was eating carbs, and feel thiner already!. I am so used to this diet though because I have been on it for 5 years straight, minus this past screw up. After a while you won't even want carbs anymore. The craving just goes away. Look on page 98 of The Metabolic Diet for info if you are feeling like crashing. Also remember a lot of people feel better eating steak and red meats while on the assesment phase of the diet.

What are you core meals? I am eating a lot of meats, tons of fish oil, flax seed oil. I just want to keep some variety going.

I guess my biggest question would be when you dont have time to make a meal, what type of quick eats are you getting into?

 

[Botch]

You won't. It gets better and worse, depending on the person. I do my first carb up on this coming Sunday. As I said before I went off the diet for about 1.5-2 months and gained a buttload and my IBS symptoms started back up again really bad. Now though the IBS symptoms are pretty much completely gone, I have 10 times the energy I had while I was eating carbs, and feel thiner already!. I am so used to this diet though because I have been on it for 5 years straight, minus this past screw up. After a while you won't even want carbs anymore. The craving just goes away. Look on page 98 of The Metabolic Diet for info if you are feeling like crashing. Also remember a lot of people feel better eating steak and red meats while on the assesment phase of the diet.

Haha yeah I hear ya on the steak and red meats. Dr. DiPas. recommends eating red meat (preferably steak) once a day to help elevate those T levels. However, I wouldn't recommend this for someone who has cholesterol issues. I ate like CRAP during the assessment phase. Since I was craving carbs I felt I needed to satisfy myself some other way so I ate bacon, pepperoni, sausage, ground beef, and a ton of cheese almost everyday. That'll make you bloated from the sodium and feeling like crap super quick. I tend to stay away from processed foods at this point. Now I may have bacon or sausage once a week but thats it (little smokies are my weakness). I've also noticed that I don't crave carbs at all during the week anymore. And I haven't felt the need to eat any junk during my carb-ups for the last two weeks either. Last carb up was almost 100% clean.. okay, maybe more like 80%

 

[kraftkid]

Haha yeah I hear ya on the steak and red meats. Dr. DiPas. recommends eating red meat (preferably steak) once a day to help elevate those T levels. However, I wouldn't recommend this for someone who has cholesterol issues. I ate like CRAP during the assessment phase. Since I was craving carbs I felt I needed to satisfy myself some other way so I ate bacon, pepperoni, sausage, ground beef, and a ton of cheese almost everyday. That'll make you bloated from the sodium and feeling like crap super quick. I tend to stay away from processed foods at this point. Now I may have bacon or sausage once a week but thats it (little smokies are my weakness). I've also noticed that I don't crave carbs at all during the week anymore. And I haven't felt the need to eat any junk during my carb-ups for the last two weeks either. Last carb up was almost 100% clean.. okay, maybe more like 80%

Since I have done Aitkens a lot, I am always amazed who once you get past a certain point you just dont feel the need for carbs any more.

After a carb up, do you get mini cravings again? Just curious. I am still ten days out from eating 4 lb of sweet potatos, etc.

 

[T-Bone]

Haha yeah I hear ya on the steak and red meats. Dr. DiPas. recommends eating red meat (preferably steak) once a day to help elevate those T levels. However, I wouldn't recommend this for someone who has cholesterol issues. I ate like CRAP during the assessment phase. Since I was craving carbs I felt I needed to satisfy myself some other way so I ate bacon, pepperoni, sausage, ground beef, and a ton of cheese almost everyday. That'll make you bloated from the sodium and feeling like crap super quick. I tend to stay away from processed foods at this point. Now I may have bacon or sausage once a week but thats it (little smokies are my weakness). I've also noticed that I don't crave carbs at all during the week anymore. And I haven't felt the need to eat any junk during my carb-ups for the last two weeks either. Last carb up was almost 100% clean.. okay, maybe more like 80%

Nothing wrong with red meat. Steak once a week, nothing wrong with that either. The sodium filled meats are what you have to watch out for. Processed meats.

"Buy food that spoils, eat it before it spoils" or something like that is the quote anyway. You just have to be creative and eat a variety of meats. Mix it up, sure you can have some processed meats, just limit it. The more variety the better. Try buffalo meat, duck, pork loin, pork chops. Also eat tons and tons of brocolli. Brussels sprouts are good too. I like red meat but I can't always afford my favorite steak...guess what it is?. Oh yeah, cube steaks are good too. Also I eat Wild Salmon, it is much better for you than the farm raised and has less mercury content. Lamb is pretty good too. Sorry now you got me hungry!.

 

[T-Bone]

I wish Nutra would carry The Metabolic Diet Supplements. I have tried the Low-Carb Meal Replacement and they are great mixed with low carb milk. Thick as a real milkshake and almost as good, they also keep you full for hours.

 

[Botch]

T-Bone, I was wondering about how good Dr. DiPasquales supplement line was. Thank you for the input. I've looked at some of the supplements ingredients and it seems they have a very good ingredient profile, the only problem is the high price.

kraftkid, I do experience small carb cravings the day after the carb up. And its not that I really even crave them but more a habit of unconsciously reaching for carbs when I'm hungry, since I had been used to eating them for the two days prior. I don't have any problem putting down the carbs. In fact, come the last night of the carb up I'm really craving fatty foods and can't wait to get back to my scrambled eggs the next morning.

 

[Ubiquitous]

T-Bone, I was wondering about how good Dr. DiPasquales supplement line was. Thank you for the input. I've looked at some of the supplements ingredients and it seems they have a very good ingredient profile, the only problem is the high price.

kraftkid, I do experience small carb cravings the day after the carb up. And its not that I really even crave them but more a habit of unconsciously reaching for carbs when I'm hungry, since I had been used to eating them for the two days prior. I don't have any problem putting down the carbs. In fact, come the last night of the carb up I'm really craving fatty foods and can't wait to get back to my scrambled eggs the next morning.

I'm the same Botch.

 

[T-Bone]

Bump my thread about Metabolic Diet Supplements, I hope if we get enough interest Nutraplanet will carry them,

http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutraplanet/80336-metabolic-diet-supplements.html

 

[T-Bone]

I'm deep in ketosis according to the ketone strips I've got. My pee is turns it several shades darker than the darkest shade on the little chart on the bottle. I feel so good and full of energy I kinda don't want to carb up tommorow!.

 

[kraftkid]

I'm deep in ketosis according to the ketone strips I've got. My pee is turns it several shades darker than the darkest shade on the little chart on the bottle. I feel so good and full of energy I kinda don't want to carb up tommorow!.

Ditto, just tested this AM and I am definitely into deep ketosis. I feel a lot better then I did on Atkins though. This may be the result of focusing so much on the good fats. I primarily use Fish Oil and Flax.

Also, I've found getting a couple tablespoons of whole flax seeds is great for keeping the pipes right. Works likes a charm and not nearly as harsh on me as Metamucil, etc.

No question I have lost a lot of fat, enough that it is easily visible (and water). I expected this since Atkins tore fat off me.

 

[Botch]

Ketosis is not a good thing. After 6 weeks on this diet there should be no ketones in your urine as long as you are sticking to the ~30g of carbs per day and eating enough fats.

 

[kraftkid]

Ketosis is not a good thing. After 6 weeks on this diet there should be no ketones in your urine as long as you are sticking to the ~30g of carbs per day and eating enough fats.

Lot of varying opinions on ketosis. I'm only a few days in, so this was completely expected and desired.

Six weeks in, I still think it is a matter of where you started on the diet. If you are still trying to lose fat, I can't see this as a negative.

I'm not saying you want to be in ketosis for six months, but if you have a good amount of fat to loose.......

 

[Ubiquitous]

Lot of varying opinions on ketosis. I'm only a few days in, so this was completely expected and desired.

Six weeks in, I still think it is a matter of where you started on the diet. If you are still trying to lose fat, I can't see this as a negative.

I'm not saying you want to be in ketosis for six months, but if you have a good amount of fat to loose.......

exactly.

 

[Botch]

Lot of varying opinions on ketosis. I'm only a few days in, so this was completely expected and desired.

Six weeks in, I still think it is a matter of where you started on the diet. If you are still trying to lose fat, I can't see this as a negative.

I'm not saying you want to be in ketosis for six months, but if you have a good amount of fat to loose.......

Kraftkid,
I see where you are coming from. Many of the cyclic diets focus on ketosis because they are a short term fix where you only diet for about 6 weeks. I respect yours and anyone elses decision to use the diet in this way. I am sure it is effective at fat loss (but also catabolic).

I disagree with you on a few things. First, you say that you can't see being in ketosis as a negative if your goal is fat loss. It would be wrong to think that you would be burning less fat if you were adapted to the diet rather than being in ketosis. Instead, while you are adapted to the diet you will be using triglycerides and fatty acids for energy. You will be in an anabolic state instead of a catabolic state while you burn fat.
Your second comment is along the same lines as the first. It appears you think it is more beneficial to be in ketosis rather than being an efficient fat burner who hovers just above ketosis. If you would like I can provide evidence to the contrary, but it seems you already have your opinions on ketosis so for now I will leave it at this.

 

[kraftkid]

Kraftkid,
I see where you are coming from. Many of the cyclic diets focus on ketosis because they are a short term fix where you only diet for about 6 weeks. I respect yours and anyone elses decision to use the diet in this way. I am sure it is effective at fat loss (but also catabolic).

I disagree with you on a few things. First, you say that you can't see being in ketosis as a negative if your goal is fat loss. It would be wrong to think that you would be burning less fat if you were adapted to the diet rather than being in ketosis. Instead, while you are adapted to the diet you will be using triglycerides and fatty acids for energy. You will be in an anabolic state instead of a catabolic state while you burn fat.
Your second comment is along the same lines as the first. It appears you think it is more beneficial to be in ketosis rather than being an efficient fat burner who hovers just above ketosis. If you would like I can provide evidence to the contrary, but it seems you already have your opinions on ketosis so for now I will leave it at this.

Hey Botch. I don't think we are philisophically as far apart as you think we are.

I am not recommending long term ketosis. I am talking about short term ketosis to strip off some fat. Then move to the approach you describe.

I agree that long term, you want to ride the fence, not be in deep ketosis. But, in the short term, there is no question in my mind, that ketosis is much more effective at stripping fat than the fence straddling method.

I view this as a staged process. Strip off fat, then once you are in range of your target, add some carbs back. I have done this many times and for me it works very well with minimal muscle loss, you just can't stretch it too far.

For example, if I went six weeks, I would 2% bodyfat and little muscle left since I am so carb responsive, but for others that may not be true.

I am a big believer in letting your body be your guide. I don't think anyone is going to stay in ketosis if they are wasting away and can't bench a watermelon. At least I hope not.

I'm not an expert, so dont think I am not open to others ideas (which is why I started asking carb cycling questions). Just sharing my opinions.

I don't really put a ton of credence in "studies" however. I work in the medical field and I see every day how studies can be used to support any position the researchers want them to be. Dig into the initial research on Celebrex and Viox.........

To me studies are a starting point, and real world experience is the true test, which is why I dig this forum. Granted a lot of folks on here go a lot more overboard than I do, but there are some SMART folks on here.

 

[kraftkid]

Hey Botch. I don't think we are philisophically as far apart as you think we are.

I am not recommending long term ketosis. I am talking about short term ketosis to strip off some fat. Then move to the approach you describe.

I agree that long term, you want to ride the fence, not be in deep ketosis. But, in the short term, there is no question in my mind, that ketosis is much more effective at stripping fat than the fence straddling method.

I view this as a staged process. Strip off fat, then once you are in range of your target, add some carbs back. I have done this many times and for me it works very well with minimal muscle loss, you just can't stretch it too far.

For example, if I went six weeks, I would 2% bodyfat and little muscle left since I am so carb responsive, but for others that may not be true.

I am a big believer in letting your body be your guide. I don't think anyone is going to stay in ketosis if they are wasting away and can't bench a watermelon. At least I hope not.

I'm not an expert, so dont think I am not open to others ideas (which is why I started asking carb cycling questions). Just sharing my opinions.

I don't really put a ton of credence in "studies" however. I work in the medical field and I see every day how studies can be used to support any position the researchers want them to be. Dig into the initial research on Celebrex and Viox.........

To me studies are a starting point, and real world experience is the true test, which is why I dig this forum. Granted a lot of folks on here go a lot more overboard than I do, but there are some SMART folks on here.

One last thing I failed to mention. In my personal experience AGE makes a HUGE difference in how you respond to any approach.

I'm just 34, and many people in in are older, but just in the last five years, I have had to refine things more than every before, because unfortunately, I just dont respond the way I used to

 

[celc5]

One last thing I failed to mention. In my personal experience AGE makes a HUGE difference in how you respond to any approach.

Crazy that you mentioned that cause I just looked at your age vs. Botch (who looks to be in his mid 20's?) in that last little discussion... not because of your points of view but moreso because I thought it was an intelligent mature discussion. By all means, carry on...

 

[kraftkid]

Crazy that you mentioned that cause I just looked at your age vs. Botch (who looks to be in his mid 20's?) in that last little discussion... not because of your points of view but moreso because I thought it was an intelligent mature discussion. By all means, carry on...

I hear you. There are obviously a lot of very sharp young folks in this forum. No question, Botch is a great example.

The problem sometimes we all run into is point of reference. I saw a 22 year old dogging some guys in their late 30's, early forties on another post, saying all you need is green tea, etc to get cut.

All I kept thinking was, "wait till your my age"......

As an update, I am a full five days in now and really have not had any issues with low energy etc. This doesn't surprise me as I have a lot of low carb experience.

Right about now, I start increasing my BCAA intake and I have found really helps me keep my muscle while on a low carb phase.

 

[CryingEmo]

I've yet to hit ketosis according to keto strips. I'm way below 30 carbs, and I'm on day 5 of the break in period for AD.

 

[T-Bone]

I just had my first carb up in a long time. I don't feel so great on carb up. Now I'm back in low carb mode and feel much better. I have so much more energy when I eat lower carbs. I am thining of maybe having a carb up every two weeks instead of every 5 days. Well, after the holidays because I timed it so my next carb up will fall the 23rd and 24th. I could re-arange it to fall on the 24th and 25th instead....but argh!. Holidays are a pain in the ass!. Screw everyone elese I will just eat meat and brocolli!. I would much rather have it that way anyway!....Any of you ever read The Radical Diet?. It is based on the metabolic diet, a very low calorie version with only specifics that make it targeted towards fat loss quick, meant to stay on it for only 8 weeks. I have a .pdf copy of it and a real copy.

 

[kraftkid]

I just had my first carb up in a long time. I don't feel so great on carb up. Now I'm back in low carb mode and feel much better. I have so much more energy when I eat lower carbs. I am thining of maybe having a carb up every two weeks instead of every 5 days. Well, after the holidays because I timed it so my next carb up will fall the 23rd and 24th. I could re-arange it to fall on the 24th and 25th instead....but argh!. Holidays are a pain in the ass!. Screw everyone elese I will just eat meat and brocolli!. I would much rather have it that way anyway!....Any of you ever read The Radical Diet?. It is based on the metabolic diet, a very low calorie version with only specifics that make it targeted towards fat loss quick, meant to stay on it for only 8 weeks. I have a .pdf copy of it and a real copy.

Low cal = miserable workouts, low energy. I've tried it and i got night sweats, etc.

On your carb ups are you using mainly clean carbs, or getting nutty??? When I hit a lot of junk, I feel like **** everytime, but in the past when I have used sweet potato, etc I felt like a million bucks.

I think one of the biggest benefits to this diet is the variability. Not only does it seem to work physically, I also think it keeps your head straight.