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  1. conan1071's Avatar
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    Endomorph Cutting


    What is the best exercising for an endomorph to cut? Provided diet and supplements are correct.

  2. T-Bone's Avatar
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    Low intensity long cardio sessions.
  3. Force of Green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Low intensity long cardio sessions.
    Long low intensity cardio sessions are drawn out and boring as hell. You burn the calories while you're on whatever lame piece of technology you workout on and your metabolism drops off back to normal pretty fast.

    HIT training my friend. You'll kick your cardio into overdrive by doing this as well. The exercises are anaerobic, yes, but they still increase your cardio training capacity. Look up HIT training online and check out the true HIT programs developed by trainers that aren't offering programs that you need to be on roids for. Check out Fred Fornicolas website. He is one of my mentors. He has a blog with a ton of ideas for training.

    Do low intensity cardio sessions and end up like one of those fat bastards who dedicates his time to coming in everyday and will always remain fat. Know what I'm talking about? Yes, the fat oblivious guy who can barely contain his contempt for his lack of progress. I personally find planned low intensity cardio sessions POINTLESS. Sure, give me articles that say stuff on how it MAY do this and that... lower cortisol levels, better fat targeting, blah blah blah... it's crap. Save low intensity cardio sessions for walks on the beach with a special girl... or hiking... or a leisurely bike ride. Make sure you're dieting properly (eating sensibly) and you're eating the right foods at the right times. Train HIT.
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  4. conan1071's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info
  5. Force of Green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by conan1071 View Post
    Thanks for the info
    For sure Conan. Something I've always wondered as well... Why do something if it's not fun? And as far as low intensity activity is concerned, why do something half ass? Let alone 1/4 ass...
  6. T-Bone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Long low intensity cardio sessions are drawn out and boring as hell. You burn the calories while you're on whatever lame piece of technology you workout on and your metabolism drops off back to normal pretty fast.

    HIT training my friend. You'll kick your cardio into overdrive by doing this as well. The exercises are anaerobic, yes, but they still increase your cardio training capacity. Look up HIT training online and check out the true HIT programs developed by trainers that aren't offering programs that you need to be on roids for. Check out Fred Fornicolas website. He is one of my mentors. He has a blog with a ton of ideas for training.

    Do low intensity cardio sessions and end up like one of those fat bastards who dedicates his time to coming in everyday and will always remain fat. Know what I'm talking about? Yes, the fat oblivious guy who can barely contain his contempt for his lack of progress. I personally find planned low intensity cardio sessions POINTLESS. Sure, give me articles that say stuff on how it MAY do this and that... lower cortisol levels, better fat targeting, blah blah blah... it's crap. Save low intensity cardio sessions for walks on the beach with a special girl... or hiking... or a leisurely bike ride. Make sure you're dieting properly (eating sensibly) and you're eating the right foods at the right times. Train HIT.


    Whatever. I have tried both. I believe low-intensity cardio to be better for fat burning. H.I.I.T. is ok sure, but just because everyone elese is doing it doesn't mean its the best option. Sure I can go and look up all these stupid articles and studies but I'm not gonna do that. There are a lot of people on here that prefer low intensisty cardio. You are young though so I guess you follow the trends which is exactly what H.I.I.T. is, a trend. People were doing low-intensity cardio before you born, its tried and true. I suppose its the same with the people that use CEE instead of creatine MONO....
  7. Force of Green's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    Whatever. I have tried both. I believe low-intensity cardio to be better for fat burning. H.I.I.T. is ok sure, but just because everyone elese is doing it doesn't mean its the best option. Sure I can go and look up all these stupid articles and studies but I'm not gonna do that. There are a lot of people on here that prefer low intensisty cardio. You are young though so I guess you follow the trends which is exactly what H.I.I.T. is, a trend. People were doing low-intensity cardio before you born, its tried and true. I suppose its the same with the people that use CEE instead of creatine MONO....
    Where did you pull the extra I out of? There's a difference between HIT (High Intensity Training) and HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training).

    Let's not make assumptions here my friend You make age seem like it's a shame. I'm 24, so therefore I follow trends. Wow. The trend I'm seeing lately are a bunch of fools walking on a damn treadmill reading magazines, watching TV on LCD screens and talking on a cell phone. That's called low intensity cardio. I could get a better workout vacuuming my 1 bedroom apartment or flexing my abs while taking a big dump.

    People were doing low intensity cardio before I was born, sure. So....? That's cool... I also can't wait to be 34 so I can condescend to people at my current age like I'm God. Dude, my older brother is your age. You're not going to keel over anytime soon, so don't bother buying into those life insurance policy infomercials quite yet.

    I respect your desire to perform low intensity cardio, but respect my opinion and standpoint that I think exercise and hardwork go hand/hand.
  8. Force of Green's Avatar
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    Oh... I'm off to do some low intensity cardio right now. I'll be doggy-paddling in a pool for a little while. That counts right? I'll be back on the thread later
  9. T-Bone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    Where did you pull the extra I out of? There's a difference between HIT (High Intensity Training) and HIIT (High Intensity Interval Training).

    Let's not make assumptions here my friend You make age seem like it's a shame. I'm 24, so therefore I follow trends. Wow. The trend I'm seeing lately are a bunch of fools walking on a damn treadmill reading magazines, watching TV on LCD screens and talking on a cell phone. That's called low intensity cardio. I could get a better workout vacuuming my 1 bedroom apartment or flexing my abs while taking a big dump.

    People were doing low intensity cardio before I was born, sure. So....? That's cool... I also can't wait to be 34 so I can condescend to people at my current age like I'm God. Dude, my older brother is your age. You're not going to keel over anytime soon, so don't bother buying into those life insurance policy infomercials quite yet.

    I respect your desire to perform low intensity cardio, but respect my opinion and standpoint that I think exercise and hardwork go hand/hand.

    I think exercise and hard work go hand in hand also. Maybe we just think of low-intensity diferently. I use a cardio machine at home and I do push myself as hard as I can. I don't read or talk on a cell phone. The cell phone would get all wet from the sweat and I couldn't hold the magazine because I am using my arms. I do watch tv though. Yes at the gym I do see people working out like you are talking about, just like its a vacation for them. I was thinking you were talking about Hi Intensity Interval Training. Sorry maybe I seem a little short. I respect everyones opinion. Once in a while I just make a not so well thought out post.
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    I have seen and heard studies saying both work. Me, I hate 45-50 min cardio. I would rather bust my ass for 20min and that seems to work better for me, then 45min cardio.
    But thats just me.
    See what one you prefer doing and then do that one.
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    To me, 'low intensity' cardio is between 135 and 165 beats per minute. It's a useful tool to have, and I use it whenever I'm busy getting banged up in rugby, which is more often than not these days. If you're not in any sort of sport you have no reason to not be doing a few HIT sessions of cardio a week, though. It's even useful on a bulk. Nothing will get your appetite revved up like some wind sprints
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dagron View Post
    To me, 'low intensity' cardio is between 135 and 165 beats per minute. It's a useful tool to have, and I use it whenever I'm busy getting banged up in rugby, which is more often than not these days. If you're not in any sort of sport you have no reason to not be doing a few HIT sessions of cardio a week, though. It's even useful on a bulk. Nothing will get your appetite revved up like some wind sprints
    When you're getting up to 165bpm, that is probably a pretty moderate intensity, terminology aside though, I have found that both are great and I am utilising both. However, HIIT sessions are pretty taxing on the CNS, and I have found to hampen my recovery, especially when combined with a 4-5 lifting sessions. A 30-45min at a moderately intensity works well too.
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    Quote Originally Posted by asianbabe View Post
    When you're getting up to 165bpm, that is probably a pretty moderate intensity, terminology aside though, I have found that both are great and I am utilising both. However, HIIT sessions are pretty taxing on the CNS, and I have found to hampen my recovery, especially when combined with a 4-5 lifting sessions. A 30-45min at a moderately intensity works well too.
    I agree totally about the recovery side of it, my leg training was really sucking when i was doing all he HIIT sessions. I normally doing 45 minutes cardio post-workout at 150 BPM while sipping on BCAA's. I find the lower intensity cardio to be better, for me anyways.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CHAPS View Post
    I agree totally about the recovery side of it, my leg training was really sucking when i was doing all he HIIT sessions. I normally doing 45 minutes cardio post-workout at 150 BPM while sipping on BCAA's. I find the lower intensity cardio to be better, for me anyways.
    Yes I can see that. Unless your on some gear recovery would be a ***** on muliple sessions of HIIT along with 4-5 days of heavy lifting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    I think exercise and hard work go hand in hand also. Maybe we just think of low-intensity diferently. I use a cardio machine at home and I do push myself as hard as I can. I don't read or talk on a cell phone. The cell phone would get all wet from the sweat and I couldn't hold the magazine because I am using my arms. I do watch tv though. Yes at the gym I do see people working out like you are talking about, just like its a vacation for them. I was thinking you were talking about Hi Intensity Interval Training. Sorry maybe I seem a little short. I respect everyones opinion. Once in a while I just make a not so well thought out post.
    For sure bro... you do bring up some good points though. When I think about it, I do sometimes enjoy some low intensity cardio and I relate this to my swimming at times. I think that swimming free-style for about a half hour to 45 minutes is an awesome full body workout and if done at a distance pace, will be considered low-mid intensity. Swimmers are pretty ripped for the most part You didn't seem short at all T-Bone, maybe I was too quick to advocate my methods?
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    You see guys, We can all be friends.
  17. SatireWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RoidRageX10 View Post
    You see guys, We can all be friends.
    I'm of the opinion that if you can read a book, or carry on a conversation during cardio, you're DEFINITELY not working hard enough.
  18. jlowsho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    For sure bro... you do bring up some good points though. When I think about it, I do sometimes enjoy some low intensity cardio and I relate this to my swimming at times. I think that swimming free-style for about a half hour to 45 minutes is an awesome full body workout and if done at a distance pace, will be considered low-mid intensity. Swimmers are pretty ripped for the most part You didn't seem short at all T-Bone, maybe I was too quick to advocate my methods?
    Well there is a reason H.I.I.T. is popular, and please go ahead and find ANY article that proves low intensity - low sustained cardio is better. I'll give you a couple days to find them. Your gonna need them.

    HIIT is superior due to it putting your body in a long term defeceit. You can't hide behind the mannerism of "it's works for me" because that doesn't mean what your doing is right, it just means it's working.

    People get so caught up in the "it works for me" bs. and that's what it is. Any gym rat can see results for a short amount of time. But is it the right way? Probably not. Your online giving advice to other people without knowing any facts or research. Just "what works for me."

    Next I'll hear you telling this guy you should do cardio for 45 min. straight on an empty stomach!?!?

    Not ever one is on PH or anabolic steroids or AI or anything else that's gonna f' up your body's chemistry. So you have to take into consideration that what you do - just because it works - maybe not the right choice for others.

    Force is Right - HIIT training is superior for fat loss. obviously your not doing cardio to gain mass - so saying you can't work legs as intensely while doing it is like saying "I don't weigh as much when I do cardio" - NO SHlT. My ass doesn't stink after I take a shower either.

    Why worry about how much calories you kill during 1 hr of cardio when you could spend 15-25 and you'll burn more calories for the other 24 hrs of the day - without doing anything?

    For me, and anyone else informed - the answer, the science, and the studies - are clear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    Well there is a reason H.I.I.T. is popular, and please go ahead and find ANY article that proves low intensity - low sustained cardio is better. I'll give you a couple days to find them. Your gonna need them.

    HIIT is superior due to it putting your body in a long term defeceit. You can't hide behind the mannerism of "it's works for me" because that doesn't mean what your doing is right, it just means it's working.

    People get so caught up in the "it works for me" bs. and that's what it is. Any gym rat can see results for a short amount of time. But is it the right way? Probably not. Your online giving advice to other people without knowing any facts or research. Just "what works for me."

    Next I'll hear you telling this guy you should do cardio for 45 min. straight on an empty stomach!?!?

    Not ever one is on PH or anabolic steroids or AI or anything else that's gonna f' up your body's chemistry. So you have to take into consideration that what you do - just because it works - maybe not the right choice for others.

    Force is Right - HIIT training is superior for fat loss. obviously your not doing cardio to gain mass - so saying you can't work legs as intensely while doing it is like saying "I don't weigh as much when I do cardio" - NO SHlT. My ass doesn't stink after I take a shower either.

    Why worry about how much calories you kill during 1 hr of cardio when you could spend 15-25 and you'll burn more calories for the other 24 hrs of the day - without doing anything?

    For me, and anyone else informed - the answer, the science, and the studies - are clear.
    Yup.... I've lost a good 2 inches off my pants pounding 60 minutes of HIIT cardio three times a week, and still eating a truck load of calories. Of course I'm lifting 3 times a week too, but I'm not going for sheer mass at this point.

    Also, you can get one heck of a friegen leg workout on a Precor elliptical by varying the angle of attack and resistance. I've come away with legs just as sore as I'd have from doing 6-7 sets of full butt almost to the floor squats.
  20. jlowsho's Avatar
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    well muscle soreness only indicates the presence of lactic acid - not muscle breakdown.

    and I'm in no way advocating HIIT as a replacement for a leg workout. I also hope that 60 min. is two different sessions. If you can go a whole hour of HIIT then your not pushing yourself hard enough - I don't care how sweaty you get. That's not the point of HIIT either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    well muscle soreness only indicates the presence of lactic acid - not muscle breakdown.

    and I'm in no way advocating HIIT as a replacement for a leg workout. I also hope that 60 min. is two different sessions. If you can go a whole hour of HIIT then your not pushing yourself hard enough - I don't care how sweaty you get. That's not the point of HIIT either.
    Not everyone is built the same friend I did quite a bit of track in my time. And no it doesn't indicate muscle breakdown but it does indicate anaerobic exercise. But you can get some serious muscle density that way as well. I don't ever let my HR drop below 155, and I peak around 185. I am busting my ass sir. I used to be a sprinter, so I know what busting tail is about. We used to run hills for 2 hours a day until it was an effort just to sit up straight. I had the biggest darn legs I've ever had from doing that. And I wasn't doing any weight training at the time.

    No, it doesn't work for everyone, extreme sprints, with cooldowns in between is what I do.

    But I'm also the sort that gets better gains from very short cooldowns between lifts. It's just the way my biochemistry works.
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    Well I agree people are built differently, but biochemetry isn't. I'm glad you mentioned it. Because it's what makes writes the rules, and I'm just bringing the correct one's to the line.

    Like I said before - every one is so defensive about the siggestion that what THEY might be doing is wrong. And I'm not saying what I do is right either - in fact I've never stated what it is I personally do. I'm just stating what studies have shown to be correct.

    If your gonna hide behind the "it works for me" tag line - then you should realize like I said before that it doesn't make you right. Or what your doing to be adventageous. If the wrong way of a certain technique works for you - imagine what you could do with the proper proven way.

    If HIIT was meant to be done for an hr. I'm sure that's the way it would have been suggested. Long sustained cardio at high intensity - which is what your doing - burns muscle at an incredible rate. Which is why sprinters DON'T EVER do 2 hr hill sprints. X- country runners do.

    I was a Div. 1 pole vaulter I know about sprint and sports training, this isn't my opinion. I'm also an NSCA certified C-PT and is an org. called National Strength and Conditioning Association has it wrong - please let me know so I can inform the pres. that his methods are flawed and we should train sprinter like long distance runners immediatly
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    wow, sorry for being so aggressive. I just re read that and it's a little ridiculous
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    Well I agree people are built differently, but biochemetry isn't. I'm glad you mentioned it. Because it's what makes writes the rules, and I'm just bringing the correct one's to the line.

    Like I said before - every one is so defensive about the siggestion that what THEY might be doing is wrong. And I'm not saying what I do is right either - in fact I've never stated what it is I personally do. I'm just stating what studies have shown to be correct.

    If your gonna hide behind the "it works for me" tag line - then you should realize like I said before that it doesn't make you right. Or what your doing to be adventageous. If the wrong way of a certain technique works for you - imagine what you could do with the proper proven way.

    If HIIT was meant to be done for an hr. I'm sure that's the way it would have been suggested. Long sustained cardio at high intensity - which is what your doing - burns muscle at an incredible rate. Which is why sprinters DON'T EVER do 2 hr hill sprints. X- country runners do.

    I was a Div. 1 pole vaulter I know about sprint and sports training, this isn't my opinion. I'm also an NSCA certified C-PT and is an org. called National Strength and Conditioning Association has it wrong - please let me know so I can inform the pres. that his methods are flawed and we should train sprinter like long distance runners immediatly
    Well I don't do 2 hr hill sprints anymore either. The other thing to realize is that not all 60 minutes is pure high intensity either. I always do a 5 minute warm up, and a ten minute cool down, so technically that's 45 minutes (which is purported to be the magic number).

    It's great that you were a division 1 pole vaulter. I myself went to state throwing discuss (probably had something to do with the crappy sprint training, guys with PE educations typically don't make for great coaches).

    One other thing to note is goals. My goal isn't to get huge. If it was, I would be sucking down protein and carbs and bulking like a mad dog. I'd rather be able to run 5 miles than squat 700 lbs. That being said, yes you learn something becoming a CPT, but there's also 2-3 NSCA-CPT's at my gym that are more out of shape, and flabby than 3/4 of the people in the gym. The only people they're training are the old farts, and the people who are obscenely out of shape. They have people bouncing balls, and rolling around like rolly pollies for exercise. So forgive me if CPT doesn't lend a ton of credence to what you're saying in my book. There's 1 CPT who's a roid head, and walks around with a bloated face all the time, and another who's a cardio head and she's about as anorexically skinny as a bolemia patient can get.

    I agree that too much cardio for too long with improper nutrtion burns muscle like a mad dog. But 'some' burn't muscle is inevitable the way I'm training, and 'that's ok'. My goal isn't to preserve ALL muscle no matter the cost.

    But the facts are rather different in that I've been steadily gaining LMM while losing fat, whilest doing 60 minutes of cardio. So apparently there's something going on there.

    So 'it works for me'.

    Does that prove anything? No, but purporting that burning muscle by doing long cardio as this horrific thing is also a bit unsound unless you're trying to get huge.

    I'm not attacking you or your CPT status in what I'm saying, I'm just stating my side of the story. I'm sure there are great personal trainers out there, I just haven't met any. When over half of the trainers in the gym have flabby butts (females), and overhanging bellies (guys), you know there's something wrong with their training. If they can't be bothered to stay in shape themselves, how are they going to train someone to BE in shape.

    Also, some of the other 'conventional wisdom' for HIIT states that you shouldn't do it for more than 20 minutes. Personally, I think everyone has various limits to their training thresholds, and it would take oxygen intake analysis, bio-sign monitoring, and lab tested nutrition studies, and tons of blood work to truely get a good read on everyone's true optimal training paths.

    They do this for thoroughbred race horses, but humans are just too pathetically worthless unless you're an olympic athlete.

    I understand the true principle to HIIT is to train up to your maximum level of physical output in order to get your metabolism ramped up all day long. (and never on an empty stomach)

    And these things have changed from decade to decade and in another decade there will be another cardio training regime superior to HIIT.

    There is a point to low rev long cardio in that you DO burn calories. But it's pretty low calorie expenditure. 200 calories in an hour is pretty pathetic and it doesn't do much for your metabolism either. So all that said, what you said isn't necessarily incorrect, I just think the spirit of the comments is a bit off.

    Yes, you can and will burn muscle with high output for long periods of time. Yes, you can burn calories doing long low output cardio. Yes HIIT is most definitely superior in that it rev's your metabolism all day long. There's a time and place for both.
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    you wont hear me argue against the C-PT thing. I guess I should have stated that not only do I train NATURAL body builders for competition I also train figure competitors and compete myself. Not to mention I'm a huge follower of the Layne Norton Philosophy. SO yes while you state a great point c-pt doesn't mean much - also in some cases doesn't mean nothing at all either. But such is the way of the world.

    Goals is correct as far as methods go. The HIIT is actually meant to preserve muscle. How much more leaner are you going to be precieved if you had 10 pounds more muscle than you would normally?

    When getting ready for a natural event a competitor MUST try to preserve muscle break down at all cost and for the point stated above - i think doing cardio with the notion that burning muscle also is ok - is kind of like try to hop scotch with out knees. What the hell is the point? You may not want to be huge, but muscle burns calories - all the time. Even when your not exercising. 215 lbs w/7% bf looks VERY different than 200lbs w/7% bf on the same frame.

    Building muscle and keeping it is hard. Not losing weight.

    I'm actually really glad you brought up those other PT's because your SO right PT doesn't mean you know ANYTHING. But science speaks for itself no matter who says it.
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    not matter what your body is only going to burn SO much fat. The rest is muscle and caused by just plain impatience and you end up hindering your ability to burn fat (by less muscle mass) and crippling your metabolism (because it adapts to the SAME cardio reutine you put it through - every day) and not giving it refeeds.

    Unless your obese your not gonna wake up and lose 10bs of fat from yesterday's cardio. If you have and your not obese - you've just taken away 8lbs of muscle that could be burning fat for you while you sit at your desk replying to this message.
  27. Force of Green's Avatar
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    I really am digging all of these posts... I really can't stand people I meet who hide behind the "It works for me, man" slogan. Just because he/she gets some results and looks absolutely absurd in the gym, gives him/her the ticket to keep improperly executing the workouts. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    not matter what your body is only going to burn SO much fat. The rest is muscle and caused by just plain impatience and you end up hindering your ability to burn fat (by less muscle mass) and crippling your metabolism (because it adapts to the SAME cardio reutine you put it through - every day) and not giving it refeeds.

    Unless your obese your not gonna wake up and lose 10bs of fat from yesterday's cardio. If you have and your not obese - you've just taken away 8lbs of muscle that could be burning fat for you while you sit at your desk replying to this message.
    That's funny, because I've never burned 8 lbs of anything in my life other than maybe charcoal And no, I switch up routines doing spinning and ellipticals every other training session.

    But anyways, the calipers speak for themselves. I haven't burn't away any muscle mass, just fat. I have 'more' muscle and 'less' fat than before. So obviously something isn't adding up with your hypothesis. 'Crippling' your metabolism is an effect of overtraining. To a lesser extent, yes you will get less effect over time from doing the exact same thing all the time. That's why you change up your routine on a quarterly or less basis to ensure that you don't become adapted.

    Burning 8 lbs of muscle would require me to burn an INSANE number of calories. Considering I don't burn more than 800 calories even on the most ravenous of sessions, 8 lbs seems ludicrous. At most, I could burn 1 lbs of 'something' in an hour of cardio. And that's optimally. Even worse case, there's no to burn 8 lbs of muscle in a day short of starvation and extreme all day strenuous work. I guess if you're on the supermodel diet...

    This is the basis of my assumptions:

    Does Aerobic Exercise Make You Lose Muscle?

    By Tom Venuto
    www.burnthefat.com

    Yes, it's true. It's a scientifically proven fact that muscle proteins are broken down and used for energy during aerobic exercise. But don't worry, you are constantly breaking down and re building muscle tissue anyway. This process is called "protein turnover." Your body is constantly alternating back and forth between anabolic (building) and catabolic (breaking down) cycles. That's just a normal part of life. Your goal is simply to tip the scales slightly in favor of increasing the anabolic side and reducing the catabolic side just enough so you stay on the anabolic side and you gain or at least maintain muscle.

    This fact of human physiology has often been taken out of context and used to scare people into not doing cardiovascular exercise for fear of losing muscle. When you fast overnight as you sleep, you lose muscle too, but that doesn't mean you should stop sleeping!

    Sure, it's possible for you to lose muscle from doing too much cardio, but it's highly unlikely. Shying away from cardio completely because you think you'll lose muscle is a huge mistake. Only excessive amounts of cardio would cause you to lose muscle because over-training tips the scale towards the catabolic side. It's difficult to generalize and pinpoint one specific amount as too much, but I think it's safe to assume that just about anyone could do up to 45 -60 minutes of cardio a day, 6 to 7 days a week without losing any muscle - as long as the proper nutritional support is provided.

    Trainer John Parillo has always been an advocate of lots of aerobics, even for his bodybuilder clients who are trying to gain muscle mass.

    "Aerobics can enhance your recovery from weight training by promoting blood flow and oxygen transport to your muscles," says Parillo. "Aerobics forces oxygen through your body, increasing the number and size of your blood vessels. Blood vessels are the 'supply routes' that transport oxygen and nutrients to body tissues, including muscles, and carry waste products away for muscular growth, repair and recovery. The expansion of this circulatory network is called 'cardiovascular density.'"

    So, according to Parillo, aerobics can actually enhance recovery from weight training and increase muscular growth by developing the circulatory pathways that provide nourishment to the muscles. Cardiovascular training is important for fat burning, for good health and for muscle-building.

    Losing muscle has more to do with inadequate diet than with excessive aerobics. If you suspect you are losing muscle there are four likely causes:

    1. You are not eating enough protein. Protein is the only nutrient that is actually used to build muscle. To stay anabolic you must eat five to six protein containing meals. Each meal should be spaced out approximately three hours apart. Research has proven that if you are physically active, you need a minimum of .8 grams to 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight.

    2. Your carbohydrates are too low. Low carb diets are often used for fat loss, but it is a mistake to cut your carbs too drastically. Carbohydrates are protein-sparing, so even if you are eating large amounts of protein, you can still lose muscle if you your carbs are too low.

    3. You are not eating enough calories to support muscle growth. This is the most common cause of muscle loss. When your calories are too low, your body goes into "starvation mode." Your metabolism slows down and your body actually burns muscle tissue to conserve energy. Muscle is metabolically active tissue, requiring a great deal of caloric energy just to maintain it. That's why your body will shed muscle if it thinks you are starving.

    4. You are not training with weights. It is a common misconception that if you want to lose weight, you should start with cardio only and add the weights later - another big mistake! It is the weight training that keeps you from losing muscle while you are dieting.

    You are much more likely to lose muscle from not eating enough than you are from doing too much cardio. All too often, people are afraid to eat a lot and do a lot of cardio at the same time. It doesn't seem to make sense. Logically, it seems like the two would cancel each other out - but the opposite is true. Many people believe they must "starve" the fat by drastically lowering calories. Unfortunately, this approach can cause you to lose muscle along with the fat. The only way to maintain your lean mass while losing fat is to feed the muscles with plenty of nutritious calories and at the same time, burn the fat off with cardio.

    Whether your goal is muscle development, fat loss or both, you should always include some form of cardiovascular activity as part of your training program. Unless you're doing some kind of ultra-endurance regimen, AEROBICS DOES NOT CAUSE MUSCLE LOSS, in fact it supports the pathways that help you build it!

    About The Author
    Tom Venuto is a bodybuilder, gym owner, freelance writer, success coach and author of "Burn the Fat, Feed The Muscle" (BFFM): Fat Burning Secrets of the World's Best Bodybuilders and Fitness Models. Tom has written over 150 articles and has been featured in IRONMAN magazine, Natural Bodybuilding, Muscular Development, Muscle-Zine, Exercise for Men and Menís Exercise. Tom's inspiring and informative articles on bodybuilding, weight loss and motivation are featured regularly on dozens of websites worldwide. For information on Tom's Burn The Fat e-book, click here: www.burnthefat.com.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Force of Green View Post
    I really am digging all of these posts... I really can't stand people I meet who hide behind the "It works for me, man" slogan. Just because he/she gets some results and looks absolutely absurd in the gym, gives him/her the ticket to keep improperly executing the workouts. lol
    Heh, of course, there's gotta be something backing what they say.

    Honestly though, I think the point I'm trying to make is I'm not necessarily training for maximum muscle atrophy. I'm not a natural body builder, and don't care to be. But I wouldn't be training that way if I wanted to run a marathon either.

    There IS method to my madness, and the second I stop adding lean muscle, I'll change what I'm doing. I'll probably up the carbs and protein intake and decrease the cardio. But until that happens, I'm still making progress. Besides, I don't get crap for endorphines until I hit the 30 minute mark. I've always been that way. Thirty minutes is just getting to the good stuff
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    Quote Originally Posted by SatireWolf View Post
    Heh, of course, there's gotta be something backing what they say.

    Honestly though, I think the point I'm trying to make is I'm not necessarily training for maximum muscle atrophy. I'm not a natural body builder, and don't care to be. But I wouldn't be training that way if I wanted to run a marathon either.

    There IS method to my madness, and the second I stop adding lean muscle, I'll change what I'm doing. I'll probably up the carbs and protein intake and decrease the cardio. But until that happens, I'm still making progress. Besides, I don't get crap for endorphines until I hit the 30 minute mark. I've always been that way. Thirty minutes is just getting to the good stuff
    Well it's good your not going for muscle.... atrophy is what you call it!?!? Hypertrophy is usually what body builders are interested in. And you don't get their from doing cardio much less 60 min. intense sessions.

    Like I said before these aren't "theories" as you state. The difference is that our statements are based on science. Your reference comes from an opinion not scientific data. I can find 12,000 people with your same opinion. It just means I found 12,001 people that could really benefit from swallowing their pride and trying to do things the right way.

    Unfortunatly your also going to waste my time and make me explain what an ANALOGY is. I used to 8 lbs of muscle loss as an exaggerated analogy to get my point across. Obviously I wasn't being literal, but your response was literally - a waste of time.

    The fact that you see results proves NOTHING other than you're seeing results DESPITE what your doing. I can argue that the kid deadlifting 600 lbs with hunched shoulders and stiff legs has improper form - - but he can deadlift more than me. Does that mean that his form is correct?

    God no. It means he will eventually hurt himself rather badly or hit a plateu and not be able to progress any farther. Actually this is a true example of a kid at my gym who wouldn't take ANY direction. Just blindly lifted as much as her possibly could without any regards to form. He now is on his 2nd month off from lifting due to a psyatic tear and may have to have surgery to fix it.

    I hope my analogy didn't confuse you too much here. What I am suggesting is is that you have no clue what your doing. Your just doing it because you found an article by someone that said it was ok, and you advocating that any one else should follow in your example is asinine.

    While you enjoy gains now - they will slow and or dimish altogether quickly. If you didn't have so much weight to lose you probably wouldn't see any at all and once you do get down to normal levels you'll either be left with a sub - par physique or hanging loose skin and a brused ego.
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    Also - in lue of the recovery with cardio thing - this is referring to a small amount of low intensity cardio - NOT the high intensity your suggesting or the time frame your doing for said results.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    Well it's good your not going for muscle.... atrophy is what you call it!?!? Hypertrophy is usually what body builders are interested in. And you don't get their from doing cardio much less 60 min. intense sessions.

    Like I said before these aren't "theories" as you state. The difference is that our statements are based on science. Your reference comes from an opinion not scientific data. I can find 12,000 people with your same opinion. It just means I found 12,001 people that could really benefit from swallowing their pride and trying to do things the right way.

    Unfortunatly your also going to waste my time and make me explain what an ANALOGY is. I used to 8 lbs of muscle loss as an exaggerated analogy to get my point across. Obviously I wasn't being literal, but your response was literally - a waste of time.

    The fact that you see results proves NOTHING other than you're seeing results DESPITE what your doing. I can argue that the kid deadlifting 600 lbs with hunched shoulders and stiff legs has improper form - - but he can deadlift more than me. Does that mean that his form is correct?

    God no. It means he will eventually hurt himself rather badly or hit a plateu and not be able to progress any farther. Actually this is a true example of a kid at my gym who wouldn't take ANY direction. Just blindly lifted as much as her possibly could without any regards to form. He now is on his 2nd month off from lifting due to a psyatic tear and may have to have surgery to fix it.

    I hope my analogy didn't confuse you too much here. What I am suggesting is is that you have no clue what your doing. Your just doing it because you found an article by someone that said it was ok, and you advocating that any one else should follow in your example is asinine.

    While you enjoy gains now - they will slow and or dimish altogether quickly. If you didn't have so much weight to lose you probably wouldn't see any at all and once you do get down to normal levels you'll either be left with a sub - par physique or hanging loose skin and a brused ego.
    Well I'm glad you feel so passionately about it. Sorry, typo, hypertrophy. I do agree that form is paramount. Throwing weight around with improper form is always a quick way to get hurt. If you can't handle it properly, don't lift it at all, drop the weight.

    I'm not going to get in a pissing match with you, because honestly, I'm not trying to convince you that 'my way' is better than 'your way'. And just because you can find 12k people that think your way is better, doesn't make it 'scientific' either.

    Science, physiology, and biochemistry is far from being hard and fast 'known' and 'true' for everything. If you think we understand it all, I would imagine that you've never sat down for a biochem lecture from a prominent chemist. Biochemistry is an art in approximations, none of which are exactly correct, because the exact function, and method by which most biochemical reactions occur is largely not fully understood. We have 'ideas' and 'conjectures' based on 'observation' but that does not mean it is hard fast science.

    To 'prove' something in science is as much of an oxymoron, as claiming that there is 'one' true path to training. To truely understand biochemistry you have to start at the quantum mechanical level and work your way up. The functionality and mechanisms by which we 'believe' most biological process work, interact on a subatomic level, yet most biochemical engineering happens on a macroscopic molecular level of approximations. Chemicals are derived through millions of pertubations of 'guesses' because we really don't understand the fundamental interactions as well as we should to just 'build' things.

    In any case, I respect what you have to say, and I don't necessarily agree that it's the best for me, but it may be the best for you and your trainee's.

    Just so you don't think I'm some 'hack', I've got degrees in physics and high energy physics and have several papers on multiple sub-atomic processes under my belt. I do 'know' what 'science' is about.

    p.s. I love the 'hanging lose' skin thing. That's hilarious Is that how you motivate all your trainees to get their arses back in the gym? Oh and I'd love to see the 'scientific' data you're speaking of. I'm not aware of any closed environment human testing involving treadmills, elliptical machines, and long scrutinous testing to get the 'facts'. Just the 'observation' of people going about their normal lives and doing some shorter cardio is not 'science'. It's also social and behavioral in nature, and the variables are not isolated.
  33. SwordBurn's Avatar
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    I got the loose skin! Now what?!
  34. jlowsho's Avatar
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    CORTISOL

    The first is cortisol. Cortisol is a hormone secreted in response to stress (in our case exercise). Cortisol's main objective is to liberate energy from tissues for use during these periods of stress . It doesn't have a preference on what tissue it gets it from, but it does seem to favor muscle tissue rather heavily . The amount of cortisol released is directly related to the intensity or degree of the stress. It seems that after about 20 minutes of high intensity work, cortisol levels shoot through the roof. With that said, for high intensity (85-90% VO2 max) cardio to have the most benefit in its muscle building/fat burning properties, sessions should be kept under 20 min.

    here is a little snippet.

    Here are the references:References

    (1) Saladin, SK, Anatomy & physiology: the unity of form and function 2nd ed. (2001) p671.
    (2) Hedge, G. A., H. D. Colby, and R. L. Goodman. Clinical Endocrine Physiology. Philadelphia, PA: Saunders, 1987 [MEDLINE].
    (3) Jacks, E.D., Sowash, J., Anning, J., McGloughlin, T., Andres, F. Effect of exercise at three exercise intensities on salivary cortisol. J. Str. Cond. Res. 2002; 16(2) pp 286-289.
    (4) Blake B. Rasmussen, Kevin D. Tipton, Sharon L. Miller, Steven E. Wolf, and Robert R. Wolfe. An oral essential amino acid-carbohydrate supplement enhances muscle protein anabolism after resistance exercise J. Appl. Physiol. 88, (2), 386-392, 2000
    (5) Luc JC van Loon, Wim HM Saris, Margriet Kruijshoop and Anton JM Wagenmakers. Maximizing postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures Am. J. Clin. Nutri. 72, (1), 106-111, 2000.
    (6) McConnel,G.,K., et. al. Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on glucose kinetics and muscle metabolism during intense exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 2000 ;89(5). Pp1690-1698
    (7) Brett A. Dolezal and Jeffrey A. Potteiger Concurrent resistance and endurance training influence basal metabolic rate in nondieting individuals J. Appl. Physiol. 85 (2) 1998; pp 695-700.
    (8) William J. Kraemer, Jeff S. Volek, Jill A. Bush, Margot Putukian, and Wayne J. Sebastianelli Hormonal responses to consecutive days of heavy-resistance exercise with or without nutritional supplementation J. App. Physiol. 85(4) pp 1544-1599.
    (9) Ann. Nutr. Metab. 44(1) 2000; pp 21-29. Creatine supplementation affects muscle creatine during energy restriction. Med. Sci. in Sport Exerc. 33(1) 2001; pp 61-68.
    (10) J. L. Bowtell, K. Gelly, M. L. Jackman, A. Patel, M. Simeoni, and M. J. Rennie. Effect of oral glutamine on whole body carbohydrate storage during recovery from exhaustive exercise. J Appl Physiol (1999) 86: 1770-1777
    (11) +Leipier, B.J., Brood, R.N., Maughan, J.R. Effect of intermittent high intensity exercise on gastric emptying in man. Med. Sci. in Sport and Exerc. 33(8). pp 1270-1278
    (12) Van Nieuswhover, M.A., et. al. Effect of dehydration on gastric function at rest and during exercise. Eur. J. Appl. Physiol. 2000 Dec; 83(6), 578-584.
    (13) S. Mahe et al. Gastrojejunal kinetics and digestion of [15N] B-Lactoglobulin and casein in humans: the influence of the nature and quality of the protein. Am. J. Clin. Nutri. 63 p 542-546 1996
    (14) P.P. Keohane et al. influence of protein composition and hydrolysis method on intestinal absorption of protein in man. Gut 26 p907 -913. 1985.
    (15)Snyder, C.A. (1998). Exercise, nutrition and health Carmel, IN: Cooper Publishing Group.
    (16) Emon, P. W. R., M. A. Tarnopolsky, J. D. MacDougall, and S. A. Atkinson. Protein requirements and muscle mass/strength changes during intensive training in novice bodybuilders. J. Appl. Physiol. 73: 767-775, 1992
    (17) Inffluence of exercise training on physiological and phycological change with weight loss in men Med. Sci. in Sport and Exerc. 31(9) 1320-1329; 1997.
    (18)Robert R Wolfe. Protein supplements and exercise. Am. J. Clin Nutri, 72(2), 551S-557s, August 2000
    (19) Fern EB, Bielinski RN and Shultz Y. Effects of exaggerated amino acid and protein supply in man. Experimnetia. 1991; 47 168-172.
    (20) Anges, superdrol. M. et al. Dietary composition and physiological adaptation to energy restriction. Am. J. Clin. Nutri. 2000: 71(4) p901-907.
    (21) J,T. Tittelbach, et.al. Post-exercise substrate utilization after a high glucose vs. high fructose meals during negative energy balance in the obese. Obes Res 2000; 8: p496-505.
    (22) Yohiako, M. et. al. Impact of high intensity exercise on energy expenditure, lipid oxidation and body fatness. Int. J. Obes. Relat. Metab. Disord. 2001 Mar: 25(50 p332-339.
    (23) Ma J, Giovannucci E, Pollak M, Chan JM, Gaziano JM, Willett W, Stampfer MJ. Milk intake, circulating levels of insulin-like growth factor-I, and risk of colorectal cancer in men. J Natl Cancer Inst. 2001 Sep 93(17): p1330-6.
    (24) Reed, M. J., R. W. Cheng, M. Simmonds, W. Richmond, and V. H. T. James. Dietary lipids: an additional regulator of plasma levels of sex hormone binding globulin. J. Clin. Endocrinol. Metab. 64: 1083-1085, 1987.
    (25)Jeff S. Volek, William J. Kraemer, Jill A. Bush, Thomas Incledon, and Mark Boetes. Testosterone and cortisol in relationship to dietary nutrients and resistance exercise. J. Appl. Phisol. 82(1) pp 49-54
    (26)Trappe, Scott; Costill, David; Thomas, Robert Effect of swim taper on whole muscle and single muscle fiber contractile properties. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 33(1) pp48-56 2000.
    (27) Dorien P. Van Aggel-Liyssen, et. al. The effect of low-intensity exercise training on fat metabolism of obese women. Obes Res. 4: 86-96. 2001
    (28) Burleson, Max A; O'Bryant, Harold S; Stone, Michael H Effect of weight training exercise and treadmill exercise on post-exercise oxygen consumption. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc. 30(4) p 518-22. 2000


    WOW look at how many people and studies YOU personally prove wrong on a daily basis!! You should email them all and tell them your method is superior!!! I'm sure they'd be as impressed as I was.
  35. jlowsho's Avatar
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    Oh but you know what your talking about since physics which has nothing to do with biochem. is the end all be all of body building and states that bodybuilders should go for "atrophy" which is spelled SO much like hypertrophy that it's a type-o.

    Also, I didn't say I have 12k people on my side you tool. Your gonna have to actually READ what I say to argue points. You master physics but normal every day literature seem rather challenging. Yet you seem to know it all on cardio.....

    How low have you had your bf% btw??? Got some pics?

    Bodybuilding.com - Eric Satterwhite - Anabolic Aerobics!
    Bodybuilding.com - Eric Satterwhite - Anabolic Aerobics: Part 2!
    Bodybuilding.com - HIT Program Articles!

    fortunately I like to help people - even the obnoxious ones that think they know everything.

    Hey, and if you ever decide you want to learn how to eat right AND do cardio properly heres a good one too:

    Bodybuilding.com - Layne Norton - A Unique Combination Of Science And Experience Based Pre-Contest Advice.

    Lucky for us Layne DOES have a biochem. degree and he is so good as to explain why your way IS NOT ideal and how the way I've been trying to open your mind to - could benefit you in several different ways.

    Oh - btw he is also working on his doc. in protein synthesis. I would consider him a credible source. Especially since he's a pro bber twice over - natural of coarse.

    keep up the good work on physics. If i need to know why every time I let go of the computer it dropped on my face after reading your posts I'll let you know.

    As for getting lean - i mean really lean. Like bb lean - I'll stick with Layne and - yes - SCIENCE. Because unlike YOUR body MINE doesn't defy it on a sub molecular level.
  36. jlowsho's Avatar
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    So let's see, those are studies and articles - oh articles from SCIENCE journals that you claim can't prove anything because you know everything and all about veriables... and people with actual degress and research and studies done (imagine that... this has been studied!!!).... Man this argument would have went a whole lot better for you if I really didn't know what I was talking about.

    You can be a Gym Rat with a physics degree and talk **** about these personal trainers in your gym that you think your so much more clever than, but it takes humility to admit when your wrong.

    Was I uniformed before reading these articles and using them to go through several shows - win them - and train normal house wives to get down to 14% bf to compete as figure competitors - female bbers at sub 8% - sure. But I admitted I had no idea. That's the difference. And I don't demean my clients because they don't try to tell me business. They admit that I COULD POSSIBLY had done some actual RESEARCH not based on MY OWN GYM EXPERIENCES.

    Like I said - you want to hide behind the "it works for me" that's cool. You can continue to get sub par results. If you want to swallow your pride and follow basic biochem here and listen to people who know more about it (which isn't me BTW - I know only what those who are more knowedgable present to me) you can step up your physique and health up to the next level. Because I'm not reading natural bb magzine with you on the cover.... Me neither. But I listen to those who are and have a b.s. m.d. and other cool suffixes after their names.

    It was good arguing with you though. i do enjoy a good argument. Which - I have to admit - is why I didn't present proof in the first place. For that I apologize. That was selfish of me.
  37. Force of Green's Avatar
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    I bought one of those 'half torso on a pole' things for boxing target practice and put him out on my balcony. They called him Bob... I practice some Krav Maga style attacks on him at full throttle some mornings before breakfast or during the day for about 30 minutes or more. For cardio, I do Krav Maga private training 2x per week for an hour and Taekwondo 2x a week for an hour, kayaking 1 or 2x a week (distance), swimming (1 mile in Olympic sized pool) at a pace of under 22 minute miles, and I'll sprint or run distance every now and again, or jump on an arc trainer machine. Cardio should be fun and it should be mixed up. People are right when they say that your body adapts and your progress slows. Just make cardio fun and positive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    Well I agree people are built differently, but biochemetry isn't.
    Ummm... no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlowsho View Post
    Unless your obese your not gonna wake up and lose 10bs of fat from yesterday's cardio. If you have and your not obese - you've just taken away 8lbs of muscle that could be burning fat for you while you sit at your desk replying to this message.
    If you lost 8 lbs overnight after cardio it's not muscle or fat... It's water. Obese or otherwise.
  40. jlowsho's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TeamSavage View Post
    If you lost 8 lbs overnight after cardio it's not muscle or fat... It's water. Obese or otherwise.
    once again, someone focusing on an analogy rather anything that matters. You argue like my girlfriend. - lamely.

    Who gives a **** what it is. I wasn't claiming what the ratio of muscle/fat/water was in an 8 lb loss over night. And even if I was it has nothing to do with the discussion.

    You chime in to insiginificant pieces with nothing real to say - good job.

    there is about a page and a half of posts here and you pick out this to comment on? Seriously. And your reply to my biochem reply - HOW IN DEPTH!!! Not to mention completely incorrect. Just because every one stores fat differently doesn mean the process itself is any different from one person to another - you eat a surplus of calories - you store fat. Case closed. So how is biochem. different from me to you OH Wise and Many Worded One?
  

  
 

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