[curt2go]

Just wondering how much protien is too much at one time. 40, 50 ,60 ,70.... Let m eknow Talk to ya...

[Bone]

And I want PROOF................not just the "such and such is too much at one time". Back it up.

Peace

Bone

[curt2go]

hahahahahaha. talk to ya..

[Kay]

Originally posted by Bone
And I want PROOF................not just the "such and such is too much at one time". Back it up.

Peace

Bone

i think 50 g is the upper limit, 20-40g can be done efficiently, 50 g is pushing it , anything over that is a waste.
LOL!
oh wait you asked for proof ??

let me get my gloves ready !

[YellowJacket]

This is a never ending question.....why? because there's no set amount or standard for everyone. It varies from GI tract to GI tract. Some people can handle more than others, depends on a lot of factors. But Id say the average is more than 50, think about a steak dinner or a chicken dinner...if you have a large steak, a glass of milk etc. You're probably taking in more than 50grams.

[Kay]

more than 50g per sitting ? you sure about that YJ?
i don't know, like in my nutrition classes, 50g was teh max they would recommend, now i agree for most bodybuilders that can be stretched a little, but I don't think you have enough digestive enzymes to break down all that.
If you just have steak and milk.. that's fine, but if you have that with carbs, isn't that too much?

[crazypete]

depends, are you a scrawny little guy at 120 lbs and just sat on your ass the last few hours since your last meal, or are you a 230 lbs ph/steroid user who just finished an intense GVT workout. these factors make a big difference. don't forget that the body is efficient at providing its most immediate needs, and if for example after a workout you take in 100g and no carbs, the body will digest most of it but also use most for energy. unfortunately there is no answer or study one can point to to back this up. however we have evidence that greater than 1.25g per lb per day for highly trained collage football players is not needed (under intense training, no roids). now if one were on prohormones, this could go to 1.5-1.7, and up to 2g for those using the real stuff. once again, divide into 6-8 even meals. for after workout, charles poliquin recommends 0.27g per pound of lean body mass (ie if you have a gut, subtract this weight). also 0.5 to 1.25g carbs and flax oil.

sorry, this is the best answer i can come up with and i have done a lot of reading over the last year to come up with this.

hope this helps, pete

[YellowJacket]

Check yourself! Check the color of your piss and check your bodyfat
If your piss is dark, you're pissing out protein (if you're healthy) and excess protein can also convert to glycogen and store as fat (not as likely) 50 in one sitting is fine in my opinion, others will disagree and thats what I want. If you've noticed throughout your duration in nutrition, at least in my area, most nutritionists or nutrition instructors are anti-protein. My nutrition instructor my Sophomore year in college was a bodybuilder (obviously juiced, etc) and he slaps protein around like its worthless. So to each his own, bodies are different

[Kay]

Originally posted by YellowJacket
Check yourself! Check the color of your piss and check your bodyfat
If your piss is dark, you're pissing out protein (if you're healthy) and excess protein can also convert to glycogen and store as fat (not as likely) 50 in one sitting is fine in my opinion, others will disagree and thats what I want. If you've noticed throughout your duration in nutrition, at least in my area, most nutritionists or nutrition instructors are anti-protein. My nutrition instructor my Sophomore year in college was a bodybuilder (obviously juiced, etc) and he slaps protein around like its worthless. So to each his own, bodies are different

jst about the urine.. i have a question.... i take mutlivitamins with pigments in it, so my urine is bright yellow most times.
how would i check it then?

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by Kay


jst about the urine.. i have a question.... i take mutlivitamins with pigments in it, so my urine is bright yellow most times.
how would i check it then?

Then its not as easy, this is just a basic observation. If you're taking a multi then I doubt seriously you can tell.

[Bone]

Originally posted by YellowJacket
This is a never ending question.....why? because there's no set amount or standard for everyone. It varies from GI tract to GI tract. Some people can handle more than others, depends on a lot of factors. But Id say the average is more than 50, think about a steak dinner or a chicken dinner...if you have a large steak, a glass of milk etc. You're probably taking in more than 50grams.

EXACTALLY!!! Thats what I said in the other thread. Oh..........and Kay I fight bare knuckes bro

Peace

Bone

[jweave23]

Yeah, I've also seen this so many times over they years, no set rule for utilization. The best anyone can do is try to form a basline as YJ said, check your urine color, increases/troubles with gas and/or diahrrea, so forth.

Personally I can handle large amounts (from what can be observed), but I'm not exactly a small guy either

[John Benz]

Protein requirements vary with size, weight, age, metabolism, etc. Whey protein is broken down and absorbed so quickly that he average bodybuilder can only utilize 30-35 grams at a sitting; the rest is quickly converted to fat and stored around your waistline. It's much more practical to use a casein/whey/egg blend, like Optimum Complete Protein Diet. The whey is absorbed as quickly as ever, but the milk and egg proteins are digested and used much more slowly. Even then, I believe 50-60 grams is as much as a 200 lb bodybuilder can efficiently utilize, and anything over 50 possibly goes to waste.

A pro bodybuilder is a different animal. Steroids help the body utilize more protein and build more muscle. Also, some of these pros, like Jay Cutler, who likes whey protein, eat 10 or more meals a day, and spread their protein intake out more evenly. Not as practical for us working folk. The pros on steroids tend to eat 2 gms protein per pound bw each day. Jay and Ronnie take in over 500 gms per day!

B vitamins cause bright yellow urine. Normally, barring this, urine should be nearly colorless. If urine is dark, and B complex is not the culprit, it is an indication of dehydration, not excess protein. The more protein one ingests, the more water is required for the kidneys to break it down.

If your sweat smells of ammonia or urine, it is an indication of excess protein.

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by John Benz

If urine is dark, and B complex is not the culprit, it is an indication of dehydration, not excess protein.

Ive actually read many places that dark urine to a novice bodybuilder is an indication of excess protein.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by John Benz
Protein requirements vary with size, weight, age, metabolism, etc. Whey protein is broken down and absorbed so quickly that he average bodybuilder can only utilize 30-35 grams at a sitting; the rest is quickly converted to fat and stored around your waistline. It's much more practical to use a casein/whey/egg blend, like Optimum Complete Protein Diet. The whey is absorbed as quickly as ever, but the milk and egg proteins are digested and used much more slowly. Even then, I believe 50-60 grams is as much as a 200 lb bodybuilder can efficiently utilize, and anything over 50 possibly goes to waste.

A pro bodybuilder is a different animal. Steroids help the body utilize more protein and build more muscle. Also, some of these pros, like Jay Cutler, who likes whey protein, eat 10 or more meals a day, and spread their protein intake out more evenly. Not as practical for us working folk. The pros on steroids tend to eat 2 gms protein per pound bw each day. Jay and Ronnie take in over 500 gms per day!

B vitamins cause bright yellow urine. Normally, barring this, urine should be nearly colorless. If urine is dark, and B complex is not the culprit, it is an indication of dehydration, not excess protein. The more protein one ingests, the more water is required for the kidneys to break it down.

If your sweat smells of ammonia or urine, it is an indication of excess protein.

Protein rarely converts into fat. Its extremely rare. Its more likely to collect in your large intestine and just get excreted.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by YellowJacket


Ive actually read many places that dark urine to a novice bodybuilder is an indication of excess protein.

Figures YJ would know about novice bodybuilders....

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by Bobo


Protein rarely converts into fat. Its extremely rare. Its more likely to collect in your large intestine and just get excreted.

Protein actually breaksdown to amino acids, then converts to glucose then still has the chance to be used as fuel and if still not used, will be stored as fat. So yes bobo, you are correct, it rarely stores as fat because of all the opportunities it has to be used. But as rare as it is, its not out of the question.
So my question is: If it rarely turns to fat, it is then what? Excreted via urine.....protein is a dark, substance in the body, would it not make your urine dark? Yep.

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by Bobo


Figures YJ would know about novice bodybuilders....

Ouch.....that hurts coming from the anti-carb, but I guess Id better be happy, at least I know something.

[John Benz]

Originally posted by Bobo


Protein rarely converts into fat. Its extremely rare. Its more likely to collect in your large intestine and just get excreted.

Bobo. We don't always agree, but I've seldom seen you so far out in left field. Your statement would only pertain to someone without enough digestive enzymes to break down the protein they ingest. I will explain how it works for you.

During the process of digestion the proteins in our food are broken down into their constituent amino acids which are in turn absorbed by the blood capillaries and transported to the liver. The amino acids are then synthesized into proteins or stored as fat or glycogen for energy. Each gram of protein produces approximately 4 kcal. Whey protein is absorbed and digested so quickly that it does NOT lay in the gut. Once the muscles are flooded with as much amino acid as they can use, excess whey protein is quickly burnt off as energy or stored as fat, plain and simple.

Originally posted by YellowJacket
Ive actually read many places that dark urine to a novice bodybuilder is an indication of excess protein.

This is exactly right, because NOVICE bodybuilders have seldom learned to drink enough water to replenish that lost by conversion of amino acid to protein. Amino acids are the building blocks of protein. The formation of protein can result in dehydration because water molecules are lost as amino acids combine to form more.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by John Benz

Bobo. We don't always agree, but I've seldom seen you so far out in left field. Your statement would only pertain to someone without enough digestive enzymes to break down the protein they ingest. I will explain how it works for you.

During the process of digestion the proteins in our food are broken down into their constituent amino acids which are in turn absorbed by the blood capillaries and transported to the liver. The amino acids are then synthesized into proteins or stored as fat or glycogen for energy. Each gram of protein produces approximately 4 kcal. Whey protein is absorbed and digested so quickly that it does NOT lay in the gut. Once the muscles are flooded with as much amino acid as they can use, excess whey protein is quickly burnt off as energy or stored as fat, plain and simple.


This is exactly right, because NOVICE bodybuilders have seldom learned to drink enough water to replenish that lost by conversion of amino acid to protein. Amino acids are the building blocks of protein. The formation of protein can result in dehydration because water molecules are lost as amino acids combine to form more.

Well first your assuming some things and not looking at the whole picture.
First, whey is the only thing being digested without any sort of carbohydrate or fat. The inclusion of fat decreases the rate of at which protein in synthesized into glucose. Protein will only convert into glucose if there isn't a sufficient amount of carbohydrate present, and your below maintnenance calories. Second, non-essential aminos often collect in the large intestine when sufficient amounts are already present in the body. Glutamine is an example. Second, the assumption that whey is absorbed so fast that it turns into glucose is only when your in extreme diet situations. Even then your below maintenance calories therefore you will not store protein as fat. In essence in can be stored but rarely is the situation where your diet is lacking the necessary carbs and/or fat to where protein is converted into glucose and used as an energy source.

I'm not in left field.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by John Benz

Whey protein is absorbed and digested so quickly that it does NOT lay in the gut. Once the muscles are flooded with as much amino acid as they can use, excess whey protein is quickly burnt off as energy or stored as fat, plain and simple.

I said protein in general. Only in times of stress (post workout or any catabolic state) will whey convert into glucose when it is not present with any form of carb and/or fat.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by YellowJacket




Ouch.....that hurts coming from the anti-carb, but I guess Id better be happy, at least I know something.

It was just too easy. If I didn't rip on you, then something is wrong.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by YellowJacket


Protein actually breaksdown to amino acids, then converts to glucose then still has the chance to be used as fuel and if still not used, will be stored as fat. So yes bobo, you are correct, it rarely stores as fat because of all the opportunities it has to be used. But as rare as it is, its not out of the question.

Thats the point. This is rare to where someone'd diet lacks the proper amounts of carbs or fat. Thats why fat is so important in a keto diet. It reduces the amount of protein converted into glucose therefore preventing catabolism. The only situation to where significant amounts of protein gets converted into glucose is whenfat and carbs are severely decresed. In that case the calorie amount would not warrant any fat storage. If can be converted into glucose all day but if you don't go over your maintenance level, it will not get stored as fat.

[John Benz]

Originally posted by Bobo
he inclusion of fat decreases the rate of at which protein in synthesized into glucose. Protein will only convert into glucose if there isn't a sufficient amount of carbohydrate present,

The above is correct.

Originally posted by Bobo
and your below maintnenance calories.

Calorie count has no bearing.

Originally posted by Bobo
Second, non-essential aminos often collect in the large intestine when sufficient amounts are already present in the body. Glutamine is an example.

True, but rare.

Originally posted by Bobo
the assumption that whey is absorbed so fast that it turns into glucose is only when your in extreme diet situations. Even then your below maintenance calories therefore you will not store protein as fat. In essence in can be stored but rarely is the situation where your diet is lacking the necessary carbs and/or fat to where protein is converted into glucose and used as an energy source.

This is no assumption and extreme diet situations have no bearing on this. Whole food proteins are broken down more gradually and rarely used this way, but Whey, which is the most commonly used protein by bodybuilders is broken down too quickly to allow for proper assimilation (Excess amounts). Whey does not lay in the gut, either; thus it is all too frequently stored as fat, despite carbs.

Originally posted by Bobo
I'm not in left field.

I pulled you out in the nick of time.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by John Benz

The above is correct.

Calorie count has no bearing.

True, but rare.

This is no assumption and extreme diet situations have no bearing on this. Whole food proteins are broken down more gradually and rarely used this way, but Whey, which is the most commonly used protein by bodybuilders is broken down too quickly to allow for proper assimilation (Excess amounts). Whey does not lay in the gut, either; thus it is all too frequently stored as fat, despite carbs.

I pulled you out in the nick of time.

Damnit I need to learn how to quote better. I'll do it this way.

1. The amount of calories does have a bearing whether its stored as fat, not whether its converted to glucose. I should of been clearer.

2. Non-essentials often collect in the large intestine more often with the use of whey and proteins high in glutamine. This is the reason glutamine is pointless on a bulking diet. But we've been through that already.

3. Whey protein is high in glutamine and other non-essential aminos. When its broken down...well look at the point above.


The point of all this is that whey rarely ever gets stored as fat. It will get converted into glucose however but with the addition of carbs and fats even that is rare. I guess we can disagree as we do on the glutamine situation.


I'm not on the field...I'm coaching and you have to go with the plan

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by Bobo



The point of all this is that whey rarely ever gets stored as fat. It will get converted into glucose however but with the addition of carbs and fats even that is rare.

Im with you until right here.....it will convert to glucose, but that glucose, if not used will store most likely in the adipose tissue as fat. With the addition of carbs, it is then more likely to be stored as fat because of the excess glucose (from the amino acid transfer and incoming carbs)

[John Benz]

Bobo, just because I don't always agree, doesn't mean I don't value your input. I was going back and rereading your old arguments on post workout shakes, regarding dextrose, etc. I am rethinking a lot of my pre-conceived ideas on this. I have begun to believe a pre-workout shake with low gi carbs is just as, or more important than the post workout shake. And if your muscles have been properly sustained throughout the workout, how important is a high gi insulin spike afterwards? If you have time could you start a thread and outline your current thoughts on this?

[YellowJacket]

Originally posted by John Benz
Bobo, just because I don't always agree, doesn't mean I don't value your input. I was going back and rereading your old arguments on post workout shakes, regarding dextrose, etc. I am rethinking a lot of my pre-conceived ideas on this. I have begun to believe a pre-workout shake with low gi carbs is just as, or more important than the post workout shake. And if your muscles have been properly sustained throughout the workout, how important is a high gi insulin spike afterwards? If you have time could you start a thread and outline your current thoughts on this?

Yes, I would be interested also, flamethrower mounted and ready to use though

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by YellowJacket


Im with you until right here.....it will convert to glucose, but that glucose, if not used will store most likely in the adipose tissue as fat. With the addition of carbs, it is then more likely to be stored as fat because of the excess glucose (from the amino acid transfer and incoming carbs)

But with the addition of carbs, the whey will not get converted. Serisously ask yourself when you take a whey shake without some form of carb or fat. Thats the whole idea.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by John Benz
Bobo, just because I don't always agree, doesn't mean I don't value your input. I was going back and rereading your old arguments on post workout shakes, regarding dextrose, etc. I am rethinking a lot of my pre-conceived ideas on this. I have begun to believe a pre-workout shake with low gi carbs is just as, or more important than the post workout shake. And if your muscles have been properly sustained throughout the workout, how important is a high gi insulin spike afterwards? If you have time could you start a thread and outline your current thoughts on this?

Sounds good. Let me think about it because that would be a nice long post. I agree. I seperate pre and post. The whole idea is to prevent and limit as much catabolic activity as possible.