Food past midnight?
- 12-31-2006, 09:34 AM
Food past midnight?
got a qns that is bugging me...is there any reason why i should not consume any food past midnight if i still don't meet my daily macros for the day...not enough protein or carbs etc...btw i'm tryin to cut and will this result in any fat deposits back to my body by eating so late?
- 01-01-2007, 11:15 AM
- 01-01-2007, 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by ZoMbSta
01-01-2007, 02:08 PM
Avoid the carbs, but good foods containing mostly protein like cottage cheese, a chicken breast, or a good casein wont hurt you at all, in fact like the other poster stated, it will help you avoid going catabolic overnight..Originally Posted by ZoMbSta
01-01-2007, 07:20 PM
thanks man! really like to know more regarding the circadian rhythm you are talking about? maybe you can just post it here and share with everybody? Properly portioned means not overeating until you are full right? But what do you mean by balanced? will be real nice if you can help out on this....thanks again!Originally Posted by Force of Green
01-01-2007, 07:24 PM
meaning avoid carbs but can have fats and protein? to what amount? i know never to stuff your face with food...but thats for every meal anyway..Originally Posted by scott72
hmmm....i'm having problems at night caused i feel hungry sometimes..esp if i haven't fill up my necessary protein intake for the day...i do try to drink water to curb the hunger..but not sure whether i'm damaging my body(being catabolic) in the long term..wouldn't be nice to lose anymore LBM since i don't have much to lose...
01-01-2007, 09:50 PM
Try "Performance Pudding" by Nimbus Nutrition...I'm biased as I am the co-founder but truly believe in the product...tastes amazing and has the proper protein, fat mixture that would be a perfect nighttime meal/snack...it is sold on, Nimbus Nutrition- When Performance is Everything , or on Whey Protein Isolate Concentrate, Cycle Support, diet, supplements - Home .Originally Posted by ZoMbSta
01-02-2007, 12:57 PM
Yep, try consuming foods higher in protein like nuts, cottage cheese, chicken, turkey, or casein. You can eat before bed. The whole saying don't eat before bed cause you'll get fat in a myth. As long as you don't go nuts on simple carbs you'll be fine and you'll stave off catabolism..Originally Posted by ZoMbSta
01-02-2007, 01:04 PM
You can eat whole meals before bed if they're portioned and proportioned properly. Hell, I've been known to eat a 12 egg white omlette (cooked with pam) with peppers, onions, mushrooms, along with a small bowl of fiber one and some almonds right before bed on a cut. I'd **** a brick in the morning, but I wouldn't get fat.
01-02-2007, 01:23 PM
You forgot to mention the metric buttload of BCAAs that Performance Pudding has in it! I can't wait to try this stuff and was considering using it in this manner.Originally Posted by workin2005
RcB Since 09-06-2011 20:55 EST, Post 49
01-02-2007, 01:36 PM
I looked at the Nimbus Nutrition site and I think that they're products look solid. I like those puddings for convenience, especially when you realize you are out of whole foods and forgot to shop. I'll have to try those sometime.Originally Posted by stxnas
01-02-2007, 02:25 PM
I feel it totally depends on one's insulin sensitivity and reaction to carbohydrates. If you have deemed yourself to be impermeable, so to speak, to carbohydrates then consuming carbohydrates should be of no detriment to you. With that being said, I still like to focus the majority of my carbohydrates into 4 meals: the first, Pre/Post WO Meals, and Post-Post WO.
01-02-2007, 04:22 PM
Ditto for me. Meals 5 and 6 contain very little, if any carbs because I'm so carb sensitive..Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
01-02-2007, 09:45 PM
hey..thanks for chipping in..but doesn't pre WO carbs actualli prevents fat-burning during a weights session? personally i find that i have the best strength and endurance if i consume some quick carbs like mashed potatoes 15 mins before workout..but then again that was when i was bulking..not sure if i should do it again now im tryin to lose fats...you also include some protein in all your carb meals right? all those carbs meals you suggest low GI carbs or high GI carbs?Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
01-02-2007, 09:49 PM
Ermm...wouldn't you be too bloated to go to bed? i will have bad farts if i had that amount of food before bed...maybe its ur normal portion and not eating till you feel too full?Originally Posted by Force of Green
01-02-2007, 09:51 PM
Hence i can safely consume something that is high in protein and fats like peanut butter and stuff and not scared it comes back to haunt me the next day?Originally Posted by scott72
01-02-2007, 10:29 PM
When you decide to try it, let me know, I would be very interested in your feedback...it's an amazing product I feel is about to get discovered, so pick it up when the prices are low ; )Originally Posted by stxnas
Thanks for you interest!
01-02-2007, 10:46 PM
I don't really get gas from eggs anymore and I don't do that before bed now... lol... I could almost imagine what women feel like when they're going through labor when I went to visit the 'jon' in the morning.Originally Posted by ZoMbSta
01-03-2007, 12:07 AM
then what do u substitute it with?...u still eating on a daily basis right before bed?
01-03-2007, 01:30 AM
I have honestly never heard that Pre-WO Carbs would prevent fat loss man. Having proper Pre-WO nutrition allows your body to remain anabolic in a crucial period.Originally Posted by ZoMbSta
01-03-2007, 10:02 AM
Yes, my body is different than the next person as far as nighttime food tolerance/digestion whereas some people may feel more comfortable eating certain foods before bed, etc. but I'll sometimes have grilled chicken and black beans as my last meal with a small handful of nuts (lots of protein, fiber, little good fat) or I'll do the 1% cottage cheese route with splenda, or a couple cans of tuna, whatnot.Originally Posted by ZoMbSta
01-03-2007, 10:08 AM
I haven't heard this either. I think a lot of people have a misconception of lifting weights to burn fat and obtain a leaner physique by going a route that just isn't there, so to speak. Following a proper weight training program will definitely get you leaner and depending on the program and the intensity (especially HIT and circuit training) you can increase your cardio capacity. You're not lifting weights to burn fat, you're lifting weights to add muscle to your frame. By adding muscle, you'll expend 10-20x more calories at rest than if the existing mass occupying that area was fat. If you don't eat properly (some are just afraid to eat) you will undoubtably overtrain and end up catabolic and your fatloss efforts will be shot. Aerobic workouts will burn fat. Training and eating is about fueling your body with what it needs, when it needs it and pushing your body to the limits each and every time you pick up the weights and if you're not eating properly when the time comes, you're going to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
01-03-2007, 01:35 PM
You can eat protein & fat before bed, but make sure you're stayinig within your total cals & total fat for the day (you didn't mention being too low on fat earlier, just carbs & protein). Having carbs before bed isn't going to hurt you either unless you overdo it, although breakfast & pre/post-workout are probably better times for large amounts at least.
If you're lifting hard for an hour or more 3-5 times a week, it's burning a lot of calories. Yeah you're burning a lot during the session, but you're also burning a lot during recovery. High intensity cardio is the same way. Try it if you don't believe me. Just stop lifting, but keep eating the same amount for a month. You'll see what I mean.
You should be eating carbs and protein before any hard exercise. Adding carbs to your protein increases protein synthesis and gives you more energy, among other things.
01-03-2007, 02:00 PM
I got some glucophase XR (K-R-ALA) that I recently starting dosing 20-30 minutes before my last meal before bed (dosed at 4 caps = 1 gram K-R-ALA, then I think that equals about 400 mg R-ALA effectively metabolized)... but anyhow... I'll add some good carbs into the mix like maybe some whole oats, carbs from beans, whole bran hot cereal (w/ just water and splenda) and I'll wake up in the morning with every last bit of nutrient stuffed inside the muscles. Awesome technique for good sleep and nighttime fatloss/partitioning and when used with AP, a few reps told me to make sure AP isn't dosed within 4-6 hours of the ALA. Each night time meal has never felt more effective.
01-03-2007, 06:38 PM
Not eating carbs prior to weight training actually is a technique I have used to burn fat in a hurry by completely depleting my body of all glycogen...I use it prior to a photo shoot when I haven't had the time to PROPERLY diet down...It can be used every now and again but I would not recommend it as a way to burn fat on a regular basis due to the reasons listed above...mainly you risk catabolizing to much muscle. In the long run, the more muscle you have, the more body fat you burn 24/7....just my 2 cents ;-)Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier
01-03-2007, 07:30 PM
I am not jumping to disagree... but I don't agree with that. I may be wrong, but I believe that the only thing that is doing is just decreasing excess water weight and at the same time giving you a flatter appearance. Depleting glycogen before aerobic exercise is good to target fat, but I really don't think it is the same in respect to anaerobic activity. Ketosis is another story though.Originally Posted by workin2005
01-03-2007, 07:46 PM
Your right, it drops water weight and puts your body in ketosis very quickly...again, I don't recommend it unless your in a pinch...in the long run the cost will out weight any benifits...The "flatter" muscle appearance, due to the glycogen depletion, is quickly reversed in my body by drinking a simple carb drink about an hour prior to what ever it is I'm leaning up for....it's amazing, actually, how easy it is to manipulate your appearance in a short amount of time...lol! Every one is different and I can only speak for myself and how my body reacts...the bottom line is, in the long run, there are no short cuts to a lean, muscular physic and I've seen people drive themselves crazy looking for one. Keep it simple:Originally Posted by Force of Green
Weight training=increased muscle mass
proper diet=the fuel for both
01-03-2007, 08:04 PM
Word. No short cuts indeed and no slacking!Originally Posted by workin2005
01-04-2007, 01:12 AM
how much carbs, low or high GI and how long before exercise should u use the carbs?Originally Posted by Moyer
01-04-2007, 01:16 AM
and thats equal to recomp right? i wonder how low a BF% can u go without it be a fully-fledged cut...in another word...how long BF% can recomp get u to?Originally Posted by workin2005
01-04-2007, 08:38 AM
Hello Zombsta,Originally Posted by ZoMbSta
I'm not sure I understand your question. Can you elaborate?
01-04-2007, 02:20 PM
Articles - AlanAragon.com
Myths Under The Microscope Part 2: False Hopes for Fasted Cardio
By Alan Aragon © 2006
The bandwagon is lead by blind horses
Many trainees pigeonhole weight training as an activity exclusively for building muscle, and cardio exclusively for burning fat. On the contrary, weight training can yield very similar results to cardio of similar intensity when 24-hr energy expenditure and macronutrient oxidation is measured . The obvious advantage of weight training is the higher potential for lean mass and strength gains. In the bodybuilding context, cardio should be viewed as merely an adjunctive training mode to further energy expenditure and cross-complement the adaptations specific to weight training. As far as cardio being absolutely necessary for cardiovascular health, well, that depends upon the overall volume and magnitude of your weight training - another topic for another time.
Chaos theory strikes again
On the surface, it seems logical to separate carbs from cardio if you want a maximal degree of fat oxidation to occur during training. But, there’s the underlying mistake - focusing on stored fuel usage during training instead of focusing on optimally partitioning exogenous fuel for maximal lipolytic effect around the clock. Put another way, it’s a better objective to coincide your carb intake with your day’s thermic peaks, where insulin sensitivity & lean tissue reception to carbs is highest. For some reason, this logic is not easily accepted, nor understood. As we know, human physiology doesn’t always cooperate with logic or popular opinion, so let’s scrutinize the science behind the claims.
Let The Research Speak
Carbohydrate ingestion during low-intensity exercise reduces fat oxidation
As far as 3 decades back, Ahlborg’s team observed that carb ingestion during low-intensity exercise (25-45% VO2 max) reduced fat oxidation compared to fasted levels . More recently, De Glisezinski’s team observed similar results in trained men at 50% VO2 max . Efforts to determine the mechanism behind this phenomenon have been made. Coyle’s team observed that at 50% VO2 max, carbohydrate availability can directly regulate fat oxidation by coordinating hyperinsulinemia to inhibit long-chain fatty acid transport into mitochondria .
Carbohydrate’s effect on fat oxidation during moderate-intensity exercise depends on conditioning level
Civitarese’s team found glucose ingestion during exercise to blunt lipolysis via decreasing the gene expression involved in fat oxidation in untrained men . Wallis’ team saw suppressed fat oxidation in moderately trained men & women when glucose was ingested during exercise .
In contrast to the above trials on beginning and intermediate trainees, Coyle’s team repeatedly showed that carb ingestion during moderate-intensity (65-75% VO2 max) does not reduce fat oxidation during the first 120 min of exercise in trained men [7,8]. Interestingly, the intensity margin proximal to where fat oxidation is highest was unaffected by carb ingestion, and remained so for the first 2 hours of exercise.
Horowitz’ team examined the effect of a during-training solution of high-glycemic carbs on moderately trained men undergoing either low intensity exercise (25% VO2 max) or high-moderate intensity (68% VO2 max) . Similar results to Coyle’s work were seen. Subjects completed a 2-hr cycling bout, and ingested the carb solution at 30, 60, and 90 minutes in. In the low-intensity treatment, fat oxidation was not reduced below fasted-state control group’s levels until 80-90 min of exercise. In the 68% group, no difference in fat oxidation was seen whether subjects were fasted or fed throughout the trial.
Further supporting the evidence in favor of fed cardio in trained men, Febbraio’s team investigated the effects of carb ingestion pre & during training in easily one of the best-designed trials on this topic . Subjects exercised for 2 hrs at an intensity level of 63% VO2 max, which is now known as the point of maximal fat oxidation during exercise. Result? Pre & during-training carbs increased performance - and there was no difference in total fat oxidation between the fasted and fed subjects. Despite the elevated insulin levels in the carb-fueled groups, there was no difference in fat availability or fat utilization.
Summing Up the Research Findings
• At low intensities (25-50% VO2 max), carbs during exercise reduce fat oxidation compared to fasted trainees.
• At moderate intensities (63-68% VO2 max) carbs during exercise may reduce fat oxidation in untrained subjects, but do not reduce fat oxidation in trained subjects for at least the first 80-120 minutes of exercise.
• Carbohydrate during exercise spares liver glycogen, which is among the most critical factors for anticatabolism during hypocaloric & other conditions of metabolic stress. This protective hepatic effect is absent in fasted cardio.
• At the established intensity level of peak fat oxidation (~63% VO2 max), carbohydrate increases performance without any suppression of fat oxidation in trained subjects.
Melanson EL, et al. Resistance and aerobic exercise have similar effects on 24-h nutrient oxidation.. Med Sci Sports Exerc. 2002 Nov;34(11):1793-800.
2. Ahlborg, G., and P. Felig. Influence of glucose ingestion on fuel-hormone response during prolonged exercise. J. Appl. Physiol. 1976;41:683-688.
3. De Glisezinski I, et al. Effect of carbohydrate ingestion on adipose tissue lipolysis during long-lasting exercise in trained men. J Appl Physiol. 1998 May;84(5):1627-32.
4. Coyle EF, et al. Fatty acid oxidation is directly regulated by carbohydrate metabolism during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1997 Aug;273(2 Pt 1):E268-75.
5. Civitarese AE, et al. Glucose ingestion during exercise blunts exercise-induced gene expression of skeletal muscle fat oxidative genes. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2005 Dec;289(6):E1023-9.
6. Wallis GA, et al. Metabolic response to carbohydrate ingestion during exercise in males and females. Am J Physiol Endocrinol Metab. 2006 Apr;290(4):E708-15.
7. Coyle, et al. Muscle glycogen utilization during prolonged strenuous exercise when fed carbohydrate. J. Appl. Physiol. 1986;6:165-172.
8. Coyle, et al.. Carbohydrates during prolonged strenuous exercise can delay fatigue. J. Appl. Physiol. 59: 429-433, 1983.
9. Horowitz JF, et al. Substrate metabolism when subjects are fed carbohydrate during exercise. Am J Physiol. 1999 May;276(5 Pt 1):E828-35.
10. Febbraio MA, et al. Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and exercise performance. J Appl Physiol. 2000 Dec;89(6):2220-6.
01-04-2007, 02:53 PM
"It depends". If you eat too much and workout too soon, you'll have stomach discomfort and gas during your workout. If you don't have enough or you wait too long before you workout, you won't have enough energy and you'll miss out on some of the benefits.Originally Posted by ZoMbSta
I have a decent sized meal about 1 1/2 - 2hrs before my workout. Usually some kind of sandwich on whole wheat bread with milk and a piece of fruit. My numbers will be completly different from yours though because I'm bulking and we're probably not the same size.
I also sip some whey protein &/or BCAAs and 20-50g of simple carbs (Gatorade) directly before and during the workout. More of less carbs depending on cutting or bulking and how long/tough the workout is.
Layne Norton recommended in one of his articles that you split up your daily carbs like this when cutting:
Breakfast - 15%
1.5 - 2hrs Pre Workout - 35%
During Workout - 20%
Post Workout - 25%
Now I'm sure he would agree that percentages like this are really just splitting hairs and they definately don't need to be exact (he doesn't follow it exactly either), but I suppose it's a pretty good ballpark to start with.
In practice, it would be fine to eat more than 5% of your carbs at other times of the day (you don't need zero-carb meals). Also, 20% of your carbs during your workout is a heck of a lot unless your total carb # is fairly low. I wouldn't consume more than 50g or so of simple carbs during workout when I'm bulking, let alone cutting.
On non-workout days you can simply lower your total carb intake by about 25%, since you're not getting the benefits of the workout and you're burning less calories. The easy way to do this is to simply cut out the carbs from your workout shake and a little from your usual pre/pwo meals.
Hope this helps.
01-05-2007, 10:52 PM
well....i mean whether is it possible to get to 6% BF by just recomping? or is there a limitation as to how far recomp will work?Originally Posted by workin2005
01-05-2007, 10:57 PM
errr...1 more qns...how do you propose consuming carbs during WO? you mean bringing in some oats drinks and sipping it throughout the WO? won't you get bloated on that?Originally Posted by Moyer
01-06-2007, 11:27 AM
Thanks for your question...Originally Posted by ZoMbSta
I'm not sure I fully follow it but I will say this...If your goal is 6% BF, getting there completely depends on your body type, current physical conditioning and current body fat. Mapping out a plan of action to reach that goal is different for everyone...especially if you are trying to retain muscle mass at the same time....EVERYONE'S goal ;-)
Post your stats and I would be happy to send you a few helpful pointers that have worked for many of my clients of different fitness levels and body types....
Sorry to be so vague.
01-06-2007, 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by ZoMbStaOriginally Posted by Moyer
I also wanna add, there will probably be some low-GI policemen frowning on using any simple carbs(even during workout), but even Bobo recommended 30g during workouts (the guy I credit for starting the entire oats trend).
The whole "high-GI is bad, even post-workout" thing was started when many guys were slamming 100g+ of dextrose right after their workout.
01-25-2007, 09:55 AM
Performance Pudding is now available on Nutra Planet! Enjoy!Originally Posted by stxnas
NutraPlanet.com: Performance Pudding (12 servings) By Nimbus Nutrition
Look for the Poseidon Pre Sale to start in less than 24 hours ;-)
01-25-2007, 12:37 PM
I've been refreshing the Nutraplanet webpage for hours now Workin. Any nighttime pudding coming soon to Nutraplanet?Originally Posted by workin2005
01-25-2007, 06:20 PM
Thanks for your question FOG,Originally Posted by Force of Green
We are currently still testing Performance Pudding Nighttime. We should have it available by mid February. In the mean time, the current Performance Pudding available on Nutra Planet is a great alternative. It's what I eat almost every night before bed. Just like our Nighttime version, we used a blend of non-essential and essential amino acids derived from 2 of the highest quality protein species available, Low temperature micro/ultra-filtrated Whey Protein Isolate and Micellar Casein. This combination allows for an immediate release of amino acids to the muscles as well as a continually release over 7 hours. This sustained release system keeps you in a positive nitrogen balance all night as you rest.
Hope this helps FOG...we'll get the Nighttime version out as soon as possible, we just need to be sure it's right before it's released ;-)
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