- 05-05-2006, 08:16 AM
Right now, I'm at about 14% BF. I want to work my way down to 10% and below. I did some research on an ECY stack and I like what I see but I want to know someone's opinion who actually used it before. the question is, how quickly can I get from 14% to 10% if my diet and training is in check and I stack ECY. Could I get to 10% without ECY in the same amount of time? Obviously, I'm not looking to lose LBM and from what I read, ECY will help preserve it.
- 05-05-2006, 05:56 PM
I have used ECA/ECY many times in my past and have found it to be a very effective stack for fat burning. It is very possible to drop the 4% bf while on a stack in a very short period of time, as your appetite will be virtually illiminated... but that obviously isn't the best way to do things.
Its kind of hard to give you a timeline as to when you will see your desired results not knowing you or much about you, but at minimum I can attest to the stacks effectivness. Give it a go, its cheap enough.
One piece of advice though: For week one I wouldn't recommend you go higher then 2 servings per day if you desire to sleep at night.
- 05-05-2006, 07:00 PMBoard Sponsor
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I've read that ephedrine and yohimbine are bad to stack with one another.
05-05-2006, 07:09 PM
people react differently to this mix. Personally, I hesitated to try it for a long time then tried it and all was good. I've heard of a few back reactions but when it comes down to it EC or YC stack are great on their own.
To answer the OP's question, dropping to 10% will be difficult. It's doable but don't plan on doing it in a month unless you want to murder LBM. I'd give myself a few months to attain that goal if I were you.
05-05-2006, 07:22 PM
14% is not killing me. I was basically looking at a goal of like 8-10 weeks to try and reach 10%. My diet is clean, I just have to figure out where to cut my calories down. Right now I'm at the end of a bulk so eating is real easy at ~3400 cals a day. I am thinking i need to taper down to around ~2400 to reach my goal.
05-06-2006, 05:09 PM
Hmm, 8-10 weeks to get down from 14% to 10%?Originally Posted by peterson24
Yeah, definitely if diet stays in check and you work hard and keep motivated!
It's nice to see someone with realistic goals every now and then. You'll be able to hold on to most of your lbm in that amount of time as well.
05-06-2006, 06:22 PM
Using the impedence method i've dropped from 238 to 203. Starting mid Dec. to this morning. 23.6% BF to 17.2%. I wish I could of lost the BF that quick. I would imagine dropping from 14 to 10% would be much harder.
So I guess to answer your question based off personal experience, i would have to say 10 weeks to go from 14 to 10% using only an EC stack would be difficult.
05-06-2006, 07:44 PM
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Originally Posted by thesinner
as long as you dont take the E and the Y in the same dose you should be fine. I did ECY for awhile and I always took CY in the early AM before my cardio. Gave me the jitters and made me dizzy if I really pushed myself during but everyone reacts differant, once I lowered the dose I was fine
05-06-2006, 07:52 PM
By David Tolson
1. What is yohimbine?
Yohimbine is an alkaloid found in the inner bark of a tree that grows in southern Africa, Corynanthe yohimbe. Yohimbe has been used for centuries as an aphrodisiac, and alkaloids derived from this tree have been studied in depth. Yohimbine is now used primarily in veterinary medicine and in the treatment of erectile dysfunction, and it may also be useful in the treatment of obesity.
2. What application does yohimbine have?
Yohimbine has not been researched as thoroughly in the area of fat loss as many other weight loss aids, especially where clinical trials are concerned, but the existing data is promising. A 3-week study in 1991 on 20 obese females on 1000 calorie diets found that 20 mg of yohimbine daily increased weight loss 3 lbs. over placebo (1). Multiple studies have found that yohimbine increases the amount of non-esterfied fatty acids (NEFAs), a product of lipolysis (the breaking down of fat), in the bloodstream in both lean and obese individuals (2, 3), and that this effect persists for at least 14 days, indicating that rapid tolerance does not develop (4). Yohimbine is also an appetite suppressant, and decreases energy intake in both lean and obese mice (5).
3. How does yohimbine work?
Yohimbine works by blocking alpha(2) adrenoreceptors. There are a number of feedback mechanisms that prevent the release of norepinephrine (NE), one of the body's primary lipolytic hormones. When NE is released, such as in periods of stress or after taking a sympathomimetic (such as ephedrine), it stimulates both the alpha and beta adrenoreceptors. Stimulation of the beta adrenoreceptors causes the breakdown of fat while stimulating the alpha(2) adrenoreceptors has the opposite effect, preventing the release of NE and lipolysis. Yohimbine prevents this negative feedback mechanism, thus increasing NE release and lipolysis.
There are a number of reasons why alpha(2) inhibition is specifically useful. First, while the beta-adrenergic system primarily controls lipolysis during periods of intense activity, during rest, which makes up most of our day, the alpha-adrenergic system is in control (6, 7). Also, "stubborn fat" areas – usually the abdominal area in men and the glutofemoral area in women – contain a higher ratio of alpha(2) receptors (7), making yohimbine particularly effective in these areas (whereas other drugs that increase NE may be somewhat counterproductive). Finally, alpha(2) blockade increases blood flow in adipose tissue (7), which prevents fat from being retained in the area (8).
3. What other benefits does yohimbine have?
Aside from being a fat loss agent, yohimbine is well known as a sexual stimulant. Studies indicate that it increases copulatory behavior and reduces sexual exhaustion in male rats (9, 10). A recent review of the literature found that yohimbine, especially in combination with drugs that facilitate the action of nitric oxide, is effective in the treatment of male erectile dysfunction (11), and a study in women found yohimbine combined with L-arginine glutamate to increase sexual arousal in women with sexual arousal disorder (12). Yohimbine also slightly raises serum testosterone levels in men (13).
4. What are the side effects of yohimbine?
Anxiety is the most common side effect seen with yohimbine, especially higher doses, and for this reason it should not be used by individuals prone to panic attacks or with stress-related disorders (14, 15). Other common side effects are increased heart rate and blood pressure, although these do not appear to be a problem at the doses used for weight loss (2, 3). Other side effects associated with elevated levels of NE, such as insomnia, can also be expected. All of these side effects disappear after termination of use (11).
5. What form of yohimbine is best?
Yohimbine is available as an herbal yohimbe extract or pure yohimbine HCl, and it is also found in some topical fat loss solutions. Yohimbe extracts contain a variety of alkaloids, and yohimbine only makes up 10-15% of the alkaloids present (16). The activity of many of these alkaloids is not well known, and some of them may have toxic effects (there are many reports that yohimbe is an MAOI), which makes pure yohimbine HCl both a safer and more consistent alternative. For those wishing to deliver a higher quantity to a specific "trouble area" without the side effects of systemic delivery, topical solutions (such as Lipoderm-Y) are effective (17).
6. How should yohimbine be taken?
The dosage of .2 mg/kg (approximately 1 mg per 10 lbs.) per day is relatively free of side effects and effective for weight loss (2, 3), while .1 mg/kg is more commonly used for sexual stimulant effects. For fat loss, yohimbine is generally taken twice daily, in the morning and afternoon. It is best taken on an empty stomach, as taking it with a meal can reduce its lipolytic effects (3). The half-life of yohimbine is short (1-2 hours), but the half-life of a metabolite with similar activity, 11-hydroxy-yohimbine, is 6-8 hours (18), so it is not necessary to take it every 2 hours. It is best to start with half the dose or less to see how sensitive you are to yohimbine, as inter-individual bioavailability and tolerance can vary greatly.
7. What are some good supplements to take with yohimbine?
As covered above, arginine and other NO enhancers may operate synergistically with yohimbine as a sexual stimulant. It is also probably synergistic with caffeine for fat loss through PDE inhibition.
A possible synergism between yohimbine and ephedrine hasn't been thoroughly explored, and the information that exists is somewhat contradictory. In theory, they should work well together as yohimbine blocks one of the negative feedback mechanisms that would normally make ephedrine less effective. Cell culture studies confirm that yohimbine increases the lipolytic effects of beta(3) agonists (19). However, a study using rats indicated that yohimbine blocked the effects of the same beta(3) agonist, indicating that the two may antagonize each other (19). Additionally, a study on cardiovascular variables found that ephedrine and caffeine together were safe, but the addition of yohimbine may produce undesirable effects (20). So it is still unknown whether the combination of yohimbine and ephedrine produces any additional benefit, and whether it is justified by the potential dangers.Information courtesy of Par Deus
One of the major contributors to body weight homeostasis in the human body is the sympathetic nervous system, the principal components of which are the catecholamines (epinephrine and norepinephrine) and the andrenergic receptors. There are two types of adrenergic receptors, alpha and beta, as well as subtypes of each -- and depending on which are activated, lipolysis (breakdown of fat) can be either stimulated or inhibited.
The most well-known adrenoreceptors to bodybuilders are the beta receptors. These can be divided into subtypes 1, 2, and 3 -- and it is through these receptors that drugs such as the ephedrine/caffeine stack and Clenbuterol exert their effects. While Clenbuterol acts directly on beta 2 receptors, ephedrine exerts its effects indirectly by stimulating the release of norepinephrine (NE), the body's primary endogenous thermogenic hormone. Unlike Clenbuterol, NE is not selective in its binding. In addition to binding to the beta 2 receptor, it also binds to both alpha receptors, as well as the beta 1 and 3 receptors. It is in regards to its binding to the alpha 2 receptor that yohimbine comes into play.
Norepinephrine and Yohimbine
Ativation of the alpha 2 receptor inhibits the release of NE. Thus, by binding to this receptor, NE functions as its own negative feedback signal. In other words, it shuts off its own release. Obviously, this is not a good thing for fat loss. This is particularly true at rest (which, unless you are a marathon runner is 95% of your day) -- this is because alpha 2 receptors are activated at lower catecholamine levels than are the beta receptors (1). Thus, thermogenesis is basically always turned off. It is the differences in regional distribution of alpha 2 and the beta receptors that is responsible for the gender differences in bodyfat storage (2). Basically, females have a large number of alpha 2 receptors and few beta receptors in the gluteofemoral area (hips, thighs, and butt), while men have the same problem in the midsection. With exercise or the use of compounds such as the ephedrine/caffeine stack, catecholamine levels can be increased to a point where the alpha 2 induced inhibition of lipolysis is partially overcome (1). However, even then, the alpha 2 receptors ARE still acting to reduce lipolysis. Yohimbine is a selective alpha 2 antagonist (3) and can thus short circuit this feedback loop, maximizing NE levels, thus maximizing fat loss, particularly in these problem areas.
A second, more indirect, mechanism by which Yohimbine can aid lipolysis via the adrenergic system is by increasing peripheral blood flow (4, 5). Adipose tissue is known to have rather poor vascularity. When triglycerides are broken down into free fatty acids and glycerol during lipolysis, they must also be transported away from the fat cell or they risk being reincorporated into adipose tissue. Beta receptor activation causes vasodilation, thus increasing blood flow, however, it does not increase enough to remove all of the free fatty acids released during lipolysis (6). Alpha 1 and 2 receptor activation, on the other hand, causes a decrease in blood flow (2, 7). Thus, antagonism of the alpha 2 receptor with yohimbine would be expected to increase blood flow, and thus increase the mobilization and disposal of these FFA's, further aiding fat loss.
Yohimbine vs. yohimbe
Quite a bit of confusion seems to exist about the difference between Yohimbine and yohimbe. Yohimbine is the principal alkaloid from the herb P. yohimbe. However, there are 31 other yohimbane alkaloids that can be present in herbal yohimbe preparations. Some of these have different and unknown selectivities and potencies (and thus, effects) at the adrenergic receptors (8, 9) -- in addition, these preparations vary greatly from brand to brand and even from batch to batch, as no standardization for extraction exists. In fact, a recent investigation found that most over the counter preparations have little to no actual yohimbine (10). And, even in the more potent preparations, most people find a higher degree of undesirable effects with the herb vs. pure Yohimbine (due to the afore mentioned 31 other yohimbane alkaloids that can be present).
Studies have concluded that the ideal dosing for Yohimbine is .2mg/kg (11) -- this would be 20mg for a 220lb person (0.09 mg/lb of body weight). Studies using smaller dosages have produced less favorable results. At this level, little to no side effects have been reported (Keep in mind, this is with Yohimbine HCl, not the yohimbe herb). Another thing to be considered when using yohimbine is that insulin completely blunts its lipolytic effects, thus it should ideally be used on a low-carb/ketogenic diet, or at the very least, first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, followed by moderate aerobic activity for an extended period.
05-07-2006, 12:13 PM
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That's exactly where I had read that ECY might not be a good stack
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