- 03-29-2006, 02:50 PM
There is a ton of info on T3 on this board and I have been studying it for the past 3 days. I have very seldom seen such contradictory posts as have with T3. I have used ECA and clen in the past but have got to sticking point where I need to let receptors cool. My question is there any need to start below 25mcgs if first time user. It appears to me there is more post stating the benefits of tapering down opposed to just stopping. MY question would then be should you taper below 25 mcgs. I have purchased thyroid energy supplement to pct. Anybody with a beginner cycle who would be willing to share would be appreciated. Interested in moderation and don't know if can tolerate high dose and was thinking of something in the 4-5 week long cycle. I know there is alot of info as I stated earlier just looking for someone willing to help sort it out and point me in a general direction since first experience with T3. I ve put alot of thought into proceeding and in desperate need of cutting gear beside clen,albut or Eca. Respectively Sincere, dagnabit
- 03-29-2006, 02:57 PM
I too, have researched T3 a long time and there does seem to be a controversy as to how to run it. Starting at 25mcg appears to be safe and good even for newbies. Ramping up should be based on BBT (basal body temperature) measurements early in the morning.
There is still some controversy as to wether it should be run continuously or with 7days ON/5days OFF mini-cycles.
I am preparing to embark on a cutting cycle based on my lenghty research. I will start sometime between April 4 and April 15. I will probably use clen while on androgens and albuterol while in PCT. The blueprint is here: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle...uterol+TRN+Zol
- 03-30-2006, 11:15 PM
Starting at 25mcgs is fine but if you are new to T3 then I always think its better to start at 12.5 for a short time. Especially if you are doing a liquid and dont know how its dosed or how you react to it. The tapering up isnt as important as the tapering down but is still needed nonetheless. If you are staying at a consistent low dose for 6 weeks like say 25mcg then a taper up isnt needed and a taper down doesnt have to last that long at 12.5 or may not even be needed. I still do though b/c you only have one thyroid. If you are cycling up to say the 75-125mcg range then follow the rule of thumb for tapering up, peak, and taper down when it comes to days on a cycle at no more than 6 weeks(I like 37-40day cycles personally). 20% time up 30% time on peak 50% time tapering down. Remember that even though T3 will be out of your system, your thyroid will still be kickin after its out and then drop off sharply. Thats why a taper is a good idea to let the thyroid adjust and come back on its own. Additionally, bring it back to normal using a good thyroid PCT. L-tyrosine, guggul, bladderwack, USPlabs camphibolic, etc...
03-31-2006, 12:06 AM
03-31-2006, 03:36 AM
I've seen plenty of research too. Most of it covers the taper up, peak for two weeks, taper down routine.
However, there seems to be a change towards either shortening or removing the taper down - the reasons being that you are effectively extending the time it takes your thyroid to recover.
The main reason for the taper is to allow the thyroid to start producing its' own 't3' again, so as not to leave users hypothyroidal. There is no evidence that use of T3 will damage the thyroid, and I haven't seen any evidence that natural thyroid production actually starts again while any form of t3 is being administered. So why would you taper down?
This is a request for answers, not advice, so please don't hunt me down if you take the above as the truth.
03-31-2006, 08:14 AM
Taper down because you don't want to shock your system so badly. Going from full blast to all stop will kick the ever living snot out of you.Originally Posted by imichael
Personally I do not believe in short cycling of T3. It takes as much as 6 weeks or even more for your thyroid to recover, so cycling on and off just makes your T3 levels go up and down like a roller coaster. Staying on T3 even for years won't cause permanent shutdown so this is further reason NOT to do short cycles.
So I say ramp up to your peak, stay there for as long as you want to drop weight, and then slowly ramp down as you prepare for thyroid PCT. Length of cycle honestly doesn't matter; it will take the same amount of time to recover regardless.
03-31-2006, 08:34 AM
Thanks for the answer.
So we are saying 125mcg to zero is going to feel a lot worse than 25mcg to zero. I guess the next question is at what point does the thyroid actually start production naturally - during the taper or afterwards?
03-31-2006, 08:46 AM
The answer to that is "afterwards".Originally Posted by imichael
And although I agree with nullifidian about the slowness of reaction of the thyroid, it seems to me that exactly BECAUSE it is slow to react, then the thyroid should keep on producing during the first so many days of exogenous T3 administration.
For this reason, 7on/5off has been said to work extremely well, in that 7 days on is too short to allow the thyroid to react, and then the 5 off is long enough that all exogenous thyroid is out of the body. This is said to enable the T3 user to never shut down the thyroid, although I believe this is just theory and anecdotal at this point. I'll try it both ways and tell you guys about it. Or, of course, anyone who's done the standard 6-weeker with tapers can try the 7on/5off and chime in. I do believe that lower dosages of the T3 are needed for this protocol. It just makes sense to me.
Last edited by Grunt76; 03-31-2006 at 09:13 AM.
03-31-2006, 10:57 AM
03-31-2006, 11:28 AM
Mine or everyone's?Originally Posted by Nullifidian
But seriously, are there any studies showing how quick it is tu shutdown? I'm interested in this topic.
03-31-2006, 11:57 AM
Theoretically everyone is different.
Best way for YOU to find out is go on a T3 cycle and have thyroid checked a couple days in. If your TSH is in the toilet, you're shutdown.
03-31-2006, 12:06 PM
I've given up searching for published info on speed of shutdown. Apart from finding I have the symptoms of both hypo and hyper thyroidism, there is just too much contradictory info out there.
I think the early days of use/abuse has created a beast out of T3 and there are too many urban myth scare stories on the net now to easiily find decent feedback.
Sorry to have hijacked your thread dagnabit.
04-01-2006, 03:20 PM
Thanks Bros, for all this input and I appreciate yall taking the time and concern to respond to my post. I owe you big time. I have 3 years experience with Hgh since I'm 43 yrs. old it was very beneficial but lenghty process to see results. So if any one needs some help or opinions on my experiences with Hgh just holler. Fixing to start T3. I had previous experience with T4 but didn't have enough product to do effective cycle because only half of it made it to destination so I made rookie error that I knew better than but proceeded w/o all of order and wasted my time and $. Also does anyone know if albuterol is less hepatoxic than clen? thanx&BeWell,dagnabit
04-01-2006, 08:49 PM
04-01-2006, 10:20 PM
Natural thyroid production will be completely shutdown for a good period of time after using T3, but it will eventually recover.
I still like short cycles b/c you shouldnt have to be on T3 a long time to lose weight--it is a good finisher at the end of a cutter. Short cycles do less damage to the organ's ability to regulate T3 especially after so many cycles. Long cycles at high doses will shut your thyroid down for longer periods before coming back. However, your Thyroid will always continue to work it may work as well with greater rebound effect. With cycles of short length at 25mcgs you are giving your thyroid a push to boost your metabolism and especially protein synthesis. It is easier to recover from these quicker, take time off and start again. They are especially good for 16 weeks AAS cycles. Also, tapering down helps with rebound issues.
N Engl J Med. 1975 Oct 2;293(14):681-4. Related Articles, Links
Recovery of pituitary thyrotropic function after withdrawal of prolonged thyroid-suppression therapy.
Vagenakis AG, Braverman LE, Azizi F, Portinay GI, Ingbar SH.
The pattern of thyrotropin secretion was analyzed in seven euthyroid women, before and after withdrawal of long-term thyroid hormone, by serial measurements of thyroid 131l uptake, serum thyroxine, tri-iodothyronine, and thyrotropin concentrations, and the response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone. During exogenous hormone administration, 131l uptake was suppressed, and serum thyrotropin concentrations before and after administration of thyrotropin-releasing hormone were undetectable. After withdrawal of exogenous hormone, thyrotropin secretory function was transiently impaired, as indicated by undetectable basal thyrotropin concentrations together with absence of response to thyrotropin-releasing hormone, and subsequently by normal values of basal thyrotropin concentration and normal responses to releasing hormone while serum thyroxine and tri-iodothyronine concentrations were subnormal. Decreased thyrotropin reserve persisted for two to five weeks. Detectable values of serum thyrotropin (less than 1.2 muU per milliliter) and a normal 131l uptake usually occurred concurrently in two to three weeks. Serum thyroxine concentration returned to normal at least four weeks after hormone withdrawal.
PMID: 808728 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
04-02-2006, 05:25 PM
04-02-2006, 06:01 PM
TSH is a pituitary hormone. If T3/T4 are elevated TSH will be low. So that probably is not the best way to tell if your thyroid is shutdown. If TSH is elevated and T4/T3 is low then there is a good chance your thyroid is shutdown or slow to rebound.Originally Posted by Nullifidian
Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
05-06-2006, 05:48 AM
do you think a small dosage of t3 (25 mcg) is worth of taking.
I want to add it to my cuting cycle . I want to add small dosge because I will not take any saa ,only ECA , creatine , tt and attitude ( increase testosterone levels from within the body, without raising Estrogen in the process)
05-06-2006, 09:49 AM
05-06-2006, 11:03 AM
75-100mcg is my sweet spot but I would NEVER take it without an Anabolic or two.
I am assuming you are referring to a 16 week cut using AAS? T3 would be counter productive during a bulk.Originally Posted by C.J.
05-06-2006, 02:23 PM
At low 25-50mcg dose it is actually beneficial provided you up them calories and especially protein up a few notches...Originally Posted by bpmartyr
05-07-2006, 01:53 PM
Yeah, 16 week cut at a high T3 dose is what I meant.Originally Posted by bpmartyr
However, I am about to start a bulk in less than a week with T3 at 25mcg(no cardio)-- We will see what happens. I always run T3 for cutting but this time I am gonna see if protein synthesis is indeed enhanced. I will be running Test E 750 and EQ 600 for 16 weeks along with the T3. No other supps like ephedra will be run during, except for protein and vitamins. I am unsure if I am even going to run Adex b/c I really just want to see the effect of the T3 at that dose.
05-09-2006, 08:39 AM
Will t4 works as well on a keto diet? i cant afford t3 at the moment and i'm two weeks in a tren/winny cutter,planning to run cycle for 7 weeks.
05-09-2006, 11:23 AM
Could any one tell me if 25 mcg of t3 is enough to improof fat burning , while only on suplements and low carb diet.
05-09-2006, 11:38 AM
anyone ever look into ketotifen while on T3 and adding Albuterol or Clen
Ketotifen is perhaps best known for its ability to inhibit the down regulation of beta receptors caused by drugs like clenbuterol and albuterol. Clenbuterol and its sister drug albuterol are typically cycled on and off because they desensitize the very receptors they act on to produce their fat mobilizing effect. Ketotifen used in conjunction with either would allow the use of these fat burning drugs for much longer periods. This is convenient if, for example, a person is wishes to do a T3 cycle for a month or six weeks and use albuterol to ehnance T3's fat burning. Adding ketotifen would allow that person to use the albuterol throughout the entire T3 cycle.
Ketotifen is also recognized for its ability to lower levels of the catabolic cytokine Tumor Necrosis Factor-alpha (TNF-alpha). It is used by people suffering from AIDS or cancer to prevent muscle wasting caused to a large extent by TNF-alpha. In one study involving AIDS patients, combining ketotifen and oxymetholone showed that 18 out of 22 patients gained an average of 11.4 pounds after treatment of an average of 3.9 weeks (1).
There is a large body of research showing TNF-alpha lowers both testosterone and IGF-1 levels quite significantly (2,3). What's relevant to bodybuilders and other athletes is that strenuous exercise elevates TNF-alpha levels (4).
TNF-alpha has also been implicated in insulin resistance, the condition in which muscle uptake of glucose is hindered. Ketotifen then could potentially improve insulin sensitivity in muscle. (R-ALA is so popular because it too improves insulin sensitivity.)
Besides blocking TNF-alpha, ketotifen is a potent appetite stimulant. This is an aded bonus for someone with a wasting condition, or someone on a bulking cycle. This almost certainly contributed in part to the weight gain cited in the study above. When cutting using clenbuterol or albuterol, this is obviously going to force one to exercise more will power when it comes to dieting.
Recent research has shown that hypogonadism (low testosterone) is also associated with elevated TNF-alpha (5). Testosterone replacement reduces these high levels of TNF-alpha. After a cycle of anabolic steroids, a person is essentially in a hypogonadal state, with elevated TNF-alpha. This could be a possible factor in the loss of muscle mass that is normally seen after a cycle. Adding ketotifen to a typical post cycle therapy (PCT) regimen would likely help stave off this loss of muscle until testosterone levels return to normal, or until beginning the next cycle.
So whether cutting or bulking, or as part of PCT ketotifen has a valuable place in bodybuilding and exercise recovery.
(1) Smart T. GMHC Treat Issues. 1995 May;9(5):7-8, 12.
(2) Mauduit C, et.al Endocrinology 1998 Jun;139(6):2863-8
(3) Lang CH et.al Growth Horm IGF Res 2001 Aug;11(4):250-60
(4) Pedersen BK et. al. Exerc Immunol Rev 2001;7:18-31
(5) Malkin CJ et.al. J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2004 Jul;89(7):3313-8.
05-09-2006, 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by jerolddaviking
I have read that T4 is considerably weaker then T3 so you would need ample ammounts of T4 to get near the effects of T3 heres the break down
The conversion is 100mcg of T4 = 25mcg of T3. T3 is more powerful thyroid hormone
so if you think its cost effective looking at that conversion then go for it.
i've seen T3 for under 45 bux.. dunno if thats too much
05-09-2006, 04:23 PM
Thanks, gained some knowledge from the informative post workin4bigmuscles. Also agree that T-3 much more cost effective if that is a concern. Unless you work at the local T-4 factory.
05-09-2006, 10:34 PM
Yes. However, I would not run T3 even at 25mcg without an anabolic. It is too powerful and catabolic to run only on supps. If I did run T3 without an anabolic anyway, I wouldnt do any cardio at all and use less than 25mcg for a little boost.Originally Posted by estor
05-10-2006, 12:32 AM
Originally Posted by C.J.
hmm , what dosage do you propose and for how long ?
I was informed that naturally body will produce around 25mcg due to the convertion of T4 to T3
I want to take more to burn fat
05-10-2006, 07:27 AM
Also keep in mind that dosages of around 12.5mcg and lower will not suppress thyroid function. Additionally, that kind of dosage will not be catabolic, but instead can actually not only burn additional fat but also help to build muscle assuming sufficient calories are taken in.Originally Posted by estor
05-10-2006, 07:57 AM
so , if take 12,5 mcg , and I don't stop my body production, thyroid is ok and produce 25 mcgOriginally Posted by Nullifidian
this will give me around 37 mcg of active t3 .
this is how I should interprete it.
6-8 weeks with 12,5 mcg is ok.
this time is not bulking time my calories intake is low <2000 kcal
96 kg and 12% bf I assume aroud 300 g of protein per day.
05-11-2006, 09:34 PM
12.5 should be the max to take without anabolics but dont do any cardio- at least until you see how you react. I also wouldnt run it for more than 6 weeks. It ate through my muscle at a ridiculous rate with 25mcg when I wasnt on anything . It wasnt a liquid though. I would also be careful of taking any fat burners. Looking forward to seeing your results.Originally Posted by estor
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