weights than cardio to lose fat?
- 03-15-2006, 10:06 AM
weights than cardio to lose fat?
I am trying to get ripped for summer but maintain my muscle i've gained in the winter. I've been training for 45 minutes on heavy weights to deplete my blood sugar levels and glycogen stores and than I do 45 minutes of 65% of maximum heart rate cardio on an eliptical machine. Does this seem like it would send me into a catabolic state because i dont take my postworkout shake until after the cardio? My diet is clean so i'm getting enough protien, about 1.2g per bodyweight. any ideas? also i'm taking ECY stack 1/2 hour before my workouts.
- 03-15-2006, 10:16 AM
i've heard not to exceed 30 minutes on PWO cardio simply for catabolic reasons. and to save the longer sessions for days where you don't train with weights. are you 'on' anything?
03-15-2006, 12:26 PM
You dont want to overdo it on postcardio like Bee stated. Try to separate cardio and weight training if possible, if not, shorten your cardio sessions. I just incorporated cardio first thing in the morning on an empty stomach, and It's made a difference on my energy levels throughout the day.
03-15-2006, 12:30 PM
03-15-2006, 12:38 PM
03-15-2006, 12:46 PM
If you feel 45 mins of low to moderate intensity cardio is making you lose muscle after a 45min training session then you are not properly fueling up your workout to begin with or you're not fueling your body post workout.Originally Posted by Brent
03-15-2006, 01:19 PM
It totally is. There is such a thing as 'too much cardio' but 45 minutes isnt it! IMO, as long as your diet is in order, 30-45 minute cardio sessions are nothing but beneficial for endurance and fat loss.I really think muscle catabolization is highly overrated.
If you're worred about getting your protien in, just drink it (mixed with water) during your workout. It will already be starting to replenish your muscles once you start the cardio.
Personally, I wouldnt go over 45 minutes of pwo cardio. Usually Ill do ~40 minutes when I do a mid-day session (with the first 20 being glycogen depletion rather than fat burning, probably), and shoot for 20-30 pwo at night.
03-15-2006, 02:15 PM
Its overrated in the context of what the original poster said he was doing which was 45 mins.Originally Posted by BigVrunga
But yeah, we seem to agree here
03-15-2006, 02:17 PM
yeah, my post was in support of your statment Sorry if it sounded otherwise I didnt get a lot of sleep
03-15-2006, 04:04 PM
From MAX OT
With that being said, what is the point of a 45min low intensity cardio session?The higher the intensity of the cardio the greater the fat-loss and the greater the calorie expenditure during the length of exercise. And most importantly, the less of a negative impact it has on muscle breakdown.
Longer duration, lower intensity aerobic exercise tends to impact muscle growth negatively and has less of an effect on fat loss. Though you may burn calories, this type of aerobic exercise derives the majority of the calories burned from lean tissue and less from fat. This is exactly what you don't want.
To minimize cardio's negative effects on muscle growth you must schedule your aerobic sessions as distant in time from your weight training as possible. This means DO NOT do both cardio and weight training in the same workout. Don't do cardio immediately before you weight train and don't do cardio immediately after you weight train. This is how most people do it and it's completely wrong and detrimental to optimal muscle growth.
(I am asking and not trying to be a smart ass)
03-15-2006, 04:12 PM
Is debatable by many but my opinion is that cardio at a moderate intensity for 45 mins will burn more FAT than cardio at a HIGH intensity for 20 mins.Originally Posted by Brent
03-15-2006, 04:21 PM
For mesos and endos muscle catabolism is overblown IMO, however not everyone has the same body. Losing any mass is hell for me...fat or muscle.
As for as the intensity argument I am an intensity person. Look at a sprinter and look at a marathoner and tell me.
03-15-2006, 04:55 PM
I have never been a cardio person, because I was always the skinny kid but I'm getting older and the six pack is fading lol and I want it back. So say you workout for 1.5 to 2 hours more like 1.5 but just in case. How far along into the workout should you drink some protein? The most I ever really do PWO cardio is 35 to 40 minutes anyway at low to mid intensity.Originally Posted by BigVrunga
03-15-2006, 05:00 PM
Wouldn't genetics factor into that too though? I'm not sure, just asking, but it just seems the two sports while they both involve running have different energy/endurance requirements, so you might find people of significantly different genetic make-ups/potentials excelling in each sport. I think remember different types of cardio being compared in a thread not too long ago where people were discussing EPOC, but I can't find the thread.Originally Posted by diminuendo
03-15-2006, 06:00 PM
Max-OT cardio is about boosting metabolism instead of burning calories, low intensity cardio is about targeting fat as energy to be used instead of higher intensity cardio which is really taking a toll on muscle glycogen. Thing is if doing Max-OT cardio it's not a great idea to do it post workout, they even state that. You can but they don't recommend it if you can do it later or earlier in the day.
03-15-2006, 06:24 PM
I think Im right here, but high intensity cardio (sprinting, high-rep power cleans, etc) is going to pull from glycogen initially, as its more of an anerobic activity.
People seem to have great results from HIIT training though in regards to fatloss...perhaps the short sprints eat up glycogen reserves and when you shift back to moderate intensity there's more fat to burn. I believe the concept is that even though you burn more calories from fat at a moderate intensity (65% Max HR), you burn more total calories at a higher intensity so, if you're diet is locked down it will result in a larger net caloric defecit resulting in more fat lost. Like Viper mentioned, you probably wouldnt want to do HIIT cardio after working out because your glycogen levels are already depleted.
There's so many people with so much conflicting information that its definitely overwhelming when you're trying to plot out the bast fat loss plan for yourself. Some people say no cardio, other people say cardio's fine...personally I think people are over-complicating the issue to the extreme.
Eating a clean diet with proper macronutrient ratios (40/40/20 works best for me) is the first part.
Dividing your diet up into 6 evenly spaced meals throughout the day keeps the metabolism churning all day long.
Intense weight training helps you keep muscle mass while further elevating the metabolism, and your cardio adds to the caloric defecit that will equate to fat loss if all of the above is in order.
Most people (myself included!) often fail to focus on the basics and instead obcess over the minor details. Eat right, eat clean, eat often, train hard, and run your ass off...Im finding out that's basically it in a nutshell. Everything else...time of day, type of cardio, supplements, etc, are just tweaks, icing on the fatloss cake. Important, definitely, but the core of it is much simpler than people make it out to be.
That's true, but a marathoner does cardio in the extreme, and has very little muscle mass. A sprinter has to have a decent musculature to develop the type of power necessary for the sport, and that in itself will equate to a leaner body. Cardio to a bodybuilder is not catabolic. TOO MUCH cardio is definitely catabolic. Ive read that over 60 minutes of moderate intensity is too much, and personally I dont go over 45.As for as the intensity argument I am an intensity person. Look at a sprinter and look at a marathoner and tell me.
If you're an extreme ecto then yeah, maybe the same amount of cardio that would get a meso-type ripped would result in you being emaciated. I'd still bet this could be prevented with proper dietary measures though, More frequent refeeds, higher carbs in your nutrient ratios, etc. Before you blame the cardio for your muscle loss take a look at the other parts of the equation. Is your diet the best fat-loss plan for your bodytype? Are you training properly? Getting enough rest?For mesos and endos muscle catabolism is overblown IMO, however not everyone has the same body. Losing any mass is hell for me...fat or muscle.
Personally, I wouldnt spend more than 1.5 hours in the gym. 60 minutes on the weights and 30 minutes of cardio. My preworkout meal is usually 45-60 minutes before training and Ill start sipping on the protien shake during my 1st or second exercise. Leaving the protien until afterward and drinking a BCAA mix might help as well.So say you workout for 1.5 to 2 hours more like 1.5 but just in case. How far along into the workout should you drink some protein? The most I ever really do PWO cardio is 35 to 40 minutes anyway at low to mid intensity.
In short, the whole cardio is catabolic myth is just that - a myth. When your dieting to lose fat and preserve muscle, a proper diet and well-timed refeeds are going to keep your LBM, while cardio is essential for creating the caloric deficit that will result in the loss of fat. Assuming you're training naturally, fat loss (while preseving LBM) takes a long time. For instance - if your a nice and bulked out 17% bodyfat and want to get down to 7 or 8%, expect to eat strict, train hard, and run your ass off for at least 16-20 weeks. Dietary tweaks like carbohydrate cycling, caloric tapering, doing your cardio first thing in the AM, etc will shave some time off but fat loss is still a very long, slow, and painful process
That's what Im learning anyway..For the life of me I couldn't break the 11-12% plateau I had been stuck at for months. Then I started doing a boatload of cardio, training harder, eating more strict, and finally Im starting to see the fat come off. And Im getting a little stronger every week.
Oh well, just my $.02
03-15-2006, 07:19 PM
Certainly so, however looking at those who excell is not a good way to discover the effect of the exercise.Originally Posted by CDB
I have participated in many sports, and the worst I looked, physique-wise was when I ran cross country (I did not weight train). The next year I returned to soccer where I played a position (midfield) that requires intervals of sprinting and jogging. I noticed an increase in total muscle mass (I was still not training with weights). I believe that the upregulation of GLUT-4 that occurs as a result of high-intensity exercise is a huge contributor to glucose partitioning and thus recompositioning effects that this type of exercise exerts on the body. Also of importance are the hormonal effects of high intensity exercise. Exercise at low intensities for long periods of time have been shown to decrease free test levels, while the opposite has been shown to be true for high intensity.
I will link the studies, and a really good article at mind and muscle by Loki if anyone is interested.
03-15-2006, 07:36 PM
03-16-2006, 10:00 AM
thanks for all the quick replies, sorry it took me so long to reply, my internet is acting up. anyways, i had another question about the issue. after my 45 mins of weights should i take my post workout shake before i do my cardio or take the shake after the cardio. I know your supposed to take your post workout shake directly after weight training, but all those carbs will raise my blood sugar where when i hit the cardio i will be burning the shake i just drinked or if i keep it at 65% will i just be burning fat and not the shake. and if i should take it after both the weight and cardio session will i be losing muscle if i do this? whew...i hope that wasnt to long winded.
03-16-2006, 10:09 AM
oh i forgot to add. my diet is 40/40/20, and im getting around 250g protien a day at 2000 calories a day with 2,220 calories needed to maintain my weight. so i am only restricting 220 calories a day since i am hitting the wieght pretty hard 6 times a week. I am also eating carbs only in the morning hours and pre and post workout. so i am ingesting no carbs past 5pm. I only weigh around 185, but i want to drop my bodyfat while maintaining muscle before i start my next mass gaining phase.
Does it look like this plan will be good at maintaining muscle while dropping fat. If anyone sees any flaws or tweaks they could add to my diet/workout it would be greatly appreciated.
03-16-2006, 11:45 AM
Cool deal, thanks for the links. I haven't been to M&M in a while, totally forgot it even existed.Originally Posted by diminuendo
03-16-2006, 02:49 PM
If you mix whey protien with water, there's next to no carbs. If you are mixing carbs in, then it kind of defeats the purpose of the pwo cardio. Maybe if you drank it right after working out and then immediately did you 30 minutes of cardio you'd be fine.thanks for all the quick replies, sorry it took me so long to reply, my internet is acting up. anyways, i had another question about the issue. after my 45 mins of weights should i take my post workout shake before i do my cardio or take the shake after the cardio. I know your supposed to take your post workout shake directly after weight training, but all those carbs will raise my blood sugar where when i hit the cardio i will be burning the shake i just drinked or if i keep it at 65% will i just be burning fat and not the shake. and if i should take it after both the weight and cardio session will i be losing muscle if i do this? whew...i hope that wasnt to long winded.
If you're dieting, I think weight training 6 days a week is going to be too much and could lead to overtraining. For me it is, anyway. Your calories and ratios sound fine, just keep the carbs low GI. I think working out early in the day and tapering your carbs so that your last 2 meals are just protien+fat really helps too...but I wouldnt know from experience as I work out at the end of the day.
03-16-2006, 07:25 PM
thanks bigvrunga, sounds good. yeah i think i might cut out some of the cardio, especially on leg day. just did legs today, plus cardio, beat the **** outta me. i think i'll just take 32g whey protien after the wieghts than do around 40 minutes of 65% cardio than immediatly after the cardio i'll eat a bagal with 40 grams of complex carbs.
03-17-2006, 11:08 AM
Another thing worth mentioning is, it depends on what stage of your development you are in. When I was cutting down for contest I would be at higher risk of catabolism the lower my body fat got. Things seemed to be going very well as far as muscle sparing is concerned until the last couple of weeks. So here is some advice based on my failure and itís advice I am planning to use for myself.
1. Donít get yourself into a position where you have to lose fat too quickly. If you are in a position where you need to lose 2 lbs a week then you are going to be at high risk to lose muscle (my opinion).
2. The leaner you get the more caution you need to use, I think at this time you need to only do low intensity morning cardio and high intensity evening cardio.
3. Endos when getting very lean are probably at more risk than mesos or ectos and this is directly related to the fact that endos need to do much more cardio to get lean. Sure endos donít lose muscle when there above 12% but when we get into uncharted territory our bodies donít seem to be as accustomed to being lean (again my opinion based on my own experience).
4. Plan where you need to get to on the scale and donít start your hard-core cutting diet/regime until you are already fairly lean. If you have 50 lbs to lose this is no time to go hard. Make steady improvements in your diet until you are in striking distance. 16 weeks to lose 20 lbs is ok. 20 weeks to lose 20 might be better for some.
I know ectos who lose less muscle than me (a true blue endo) because they usually donít have as much fat to lose, hence there is usually no hurry, their bodies are accustomed to being quite lean and they donít need to do a lot of cardio to get lean. If the ecto type is very good at diet, they may have to do next to no cardio, I have seen it, a man get completely sliced without any drugs or cardio (or next to none).
Unremarkable is no way to go through life... Doug
03-17-2006, 01:47 PM
Great advice DreamWeaver! I totally agree...Ive havent got to 'contest leanness' myself yet (headed there!), but as the fat % gets down there its harder and harder to burn off.
I think this is when different dieting techniques are best to preserve LBM...carb cycling with frequent refeeds to stay anabolic, for instance. Some people like CKD too, but I cant get past the negative impact on strength during the first two weeks when you're supposed to skip the weekend refeed.
03-17-2006, 02:35 PM
Thanks Big, yah refeeds are really productive and I have done very well with nutrient cycling in the past. To employ these techniques you need to have the time to do it, that is something I plan on employing.
Yah there is no way I can think of to avoid those last 3 weeks of hell, I have used insanely high protein levels (fish and lean veal) with some success, maybe if I didn’t have to lose so much in such a short time this would have worked better.
Another point about taking time to lean out is that it takes time to become thin skinned after you have lost the weight and then there is the loose skin to deal with. I bet if you reached your weight goal about 3 weeks out and them employed that last 3 weeks of your plan things would work out better. I always seemed to be saying to myself if only I had 3 more weeks.
Unremarkable is no way to go through life... Doug
03-17-2006, 02:38 PM
Don't get me started on loose skin!Originally Posted by DreamWeaver
When I jog you can see my abs while my skin is moving up and down. Retarded.
03-17-2006, 05:07 PM
hey does someone want to check out my fitday food profile to see if im doing the right diet and eating the right foods, link is
I'm eating every 2-3 hours to keep my metabolism up. and im doing pre carb meal with a post workout shake. I just wanna make sure im doing things right to keep my muscle this time while doing my cut phase. than im gonna bulk up big time for summer.
03-17-2006, 06:02 PM
You should read Lyle McDonald's "Ultimate Diet 2.0". You seem to be doing the first part of the 7 day cycle, namely low carb high intensity exercise leading to complete glycogen depletion which allows for a time period of very high fat burning followed by a carb up phase to refill muscle glycogen and heavy weight-lifting session. This stuff will get you down into those single digit bodyfat levels.Originally Posted by mildain
03-17-2006, 07:08 PM
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