After workout shake...
- 08-09-2005, 05:30 PM
After workout shake...
okay...I've been using Optimum Nutrition After Max for 3 years now for my postworkout shake and it's worked fine, but I'm looking for a cheaper alternative...anybody have suggestions? It has 40g protein/40g carbs and tastes pretty darn good considering all the crap I've tried in the past five years.
- 08-09-2005, 05:34 PM
Trying to get cheaper than Optimum?
Well, you could buy bulk protein (from board sponsor All The Whey for instance) and bulk maltodextrin or dextrose.
Or something such as that.
- 08-09-2005, 05:38 PM
25lbs from the AllTheWhey is like 79.95 if my memory serves me correctly...MUCH CHEAPER then optimum.
or if you know guys that work at GNC tell them to hook you up with some nitro-tech cause that **** is sweeter than a milkshake...however, if paying full-price is WAY over-rated, lol.
08-09-2005, 05:46 PM
yeah...I was just checking out the SuperMass 600...it's a bit cheaper than Optimum.
Nitrotech? ...isn't that just asking to get spammed? heh j/k
Guess my objective is two-fold...cheaper and a little higher carb/protein ratio...60/40 (carb/protein)...for instance.
08-10-2005, 01:30 AM
add a handfull of oats to the shake and blend.. problem solved
08-10-2005, 04:42 AM
or get some cheap whey and mix with ff milk. I do! 440 cals, 64 grams of protein, 40 grams of carbs
08-10-2005, 07:28 AM
It depends on your situation and goals. If you are looking to reduce bodyfat you're going to want to stay away from dextrose and milk (lactose; milk sugar) in your shakes... though, it can be argued, rightly so, that post-workout could be the only time for such things in a diet.
Oats can be a good option post-workout too, as someone mentioned, however, if you are trying to get the 'fast' protein/carb shake, oats don't fit that bill. I'd rather take in my whey isolate, for example, right after training and then, about an hour later, have a meal with oats as the carb source.
There are many ways to approach it. Some are better than others depending on what you are doing diet and training wise, where you are and what your goals are, etc.
You can certainly start this idea of saving money and being control of the protein/carb ratio by buying bulk protein.
08-10-2005, 08:43 AM
i use oats and dextrose, so i have a short burst with the dextrose, and a longer acting carb with the oats. Sort of like the sust of PWO shakes.
08-10-2005, 09:38 AM
There is no need for trying to drink a 'fast' carb source. Aminos yes, but carbs no. I suggest you check out the sticky from old threads. This has been beaten to death.Originally Posted by shootmeagain
08-10-2005, 09:46 AM
Also I think that milk is just fine PWO, so long as its Skim.
08-10-2005, 09:54 AM
Skim milk is perfectOriginally Posted by Giantz11
08-10-2005, 10:25 AM
Milk is fine
I don't what the big stigma is with drinking milk and cutting. FF Milk isn't going to hinder fat loss.
08-10-2005, 10:39 AM
I didn't say there was. I said "IF" basing the idea on the composition of AfterMax (sp?) which is what he said he has been using.Originally Posted by DieTrying
And beaten to death? Sure. Is there one answer for everyone? No.
08-10-2005, 10:46 AM
I've got zero against milk and enjoy FF milk every day. However, 'fat-free' (skim) has nothing to do with the sugar content. I'm not sure what the stigma is regarding milk and cutting, I am cutting now, and as I said, drink milk...Originally Posted by TheCrownedOne
...but to ignore the fact that a 12oz glass of milk has 16g of sugar and to think you can drink all you want or drink it anytime is, IMO, in error.
Though I will add, the benefits of milk almost certainly outweigh this minor issue. In the end, I only choose to avoid drinking milk (even though it's fat-free), and other simple carb sources, in the late afternoon and evening hours.
08-10-2005, 11:02 AM
- 6'1" 221 lbs.
- Join Date
- Nov 2002
- Rep Power
Its lactose. Its has a GI of 50 at best. Its "sugar" isn't bad for at all. I can't think of ANY negatives of skim milk.
For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
08-10-2005, 11:06 AM
If you knew what was actually going on in the body post-WO, you would see that its not that difficult.Originally Posted by shootmeagain
08-10-2005, 11:07 AM
Skim milk has a GI value of 32.Originally Posted by shootmeagain
I usually drink 4 gallons per week when both cutting and bulking.
08-10-2005, 11:29 AM
I don't mind being corrected, educated, even disputed... but no need to go off saying that I don't know anything about what I'm talking about.Originally Posted by DieTrying
[Edit: Removed unnecessary wording... For the record, I do admit to being misguided in my views regarding skim milk. Anyway, see below for the resolution between DieTrying and myself... it's all good.]
Last edited by shootmeagain; 08-10-2005 at 11:58 AM. Reason: Removed unnecessary wording... see below for resolution
08-10-2005, 11:38 AM
We have very, very different opinions, and theres nothing wrong with that.
I realize I came off as a dick, and I apologize.
08-10-2005, 11:51 AM
I certainly appreciate that man and echo that right back to you.
I'm really not sure if we have very different opinions or not. Mabe so. Still, I'd be interested in hearing what you have say about post-workout nutrition as a matter of fact. I'll do a search for 'post-wo' and your username.
We now return this thread to its original topic...
08-10-2005, 11:59 AM
I used to use weightgainers for my PWO shake (ie N-Large, CytoGainer) due to the high protein, high carb content (malto, dextrose, etc). Recently, within the past month or so, I've been using protein powder with oats and a banana instead and truthfully can't really say I've noticed a difference yet. Of course I'll give it a few more months so I can be a little more subjective.
08-10-2005, 03:44 PM
I have no shame in saying that just about everything I've learned about PWO nutrition comes from Bobo and his program. I was once a fan of dextrose and malto, until I started doing some reading of different journals. As the clown once told me 'when science produces results, thats what matters'.Originally Posted by shootmeagain
Sorry to bring off topic again
08-10-2005, 04:14 PM
I too have changed my ways on this matter, I find Bobo's argument for Low-GI extremely convincing.
08-10-2005, 04:43 PM
I, like most people, went down the dextrose/maltodextrin road too. As I learned more, I started backing up my post-workout shake with a post-workout meal, usually within 60-90 minutes. Then, as yet another step, I started using Pure Vitargo in the post-workout concoction.
At present, I do not use any carbs in my post-wo shake. WPI only. Then, within an hour or so, I eat a nice meal with a good lean protein source and a starchy carb.
When I resume a bulking phase, I intend to return to the Vitargo. I've yet to do the search to find Bobo's comments on post-wo nutrition, but I assume this (using Vitargo) would not be in-line with those. I have seen Bobo comment before, something to the effect of, having a postive balance throughout the day is more important that just concentrating on post (and presumably pre) WO efforts. I certainly agree with that. But I do wonder why using high GI carbs, post-WO would be a bad thing anyway?
A quick answer or brief comments will suffice... and I'll look for more via the search. Thanks.
08-10-2005, 05:16 PM
Its just that high GI carbs have a much greater chance of being stored as adipose tissue. Both low-GI and high-GI work, but low-GI carbs are less likely to cause a problem around the waist.Originally Posted by shootmeagain
08-10-2005, 06:59 PM
I find it very convincing also, especially for those that are weight training. I still do not think that a small(15-30grams) amount of mod-high GI carbs is necessarily a bad thing PWO. I think you need to strike a balance.Originally Posted by Giantz11
08-10-2005, 08:06 PM
Look at me crying about this being beaten to death and then going on and on..
The research shows that the source of carbohydrate makes no difference except for two areas: body composition (which we all care about) and insulin resistance. If people are more comfortable using high-GI, thats their opinion and thats fine. However, a lot of people think that they need this FAST absorbing PWO-CHO source when they really don't. The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis PWO is bi-phasic. The initial fast phase lasts around 30 minutes and happens WITHOUT THE PRESENCE OF INSULIN..so essentially by ingesting a FAST source of CHO, you're creating a situation that happens even without the intake.
Heres an analogy: Lets say you're on a very tight budget and need a ride to work. Why would you call a taxi when you have a car with a tank full of gas??
Why do you need to create a situation that happens no matter what?
The bottom line is that fast levels of glycogen reloading doesn't result in faster protein synthesis.
END OF MY RANT. Sorry.
08-10-2005, 08:31 PM
For informational purposes then, what regulates glycogen synthesis in the bi-phasic synthesis of glycogen?
In my understanding insulin was the hormone that stimulated glycogen synthesis while glucagon and epinephrine stimulated glycogen breakdown. Now, I am sure that you have your **** wired pretty tight re: this topic. Probably have all the research articles ready to post. Its not about the quick glycogen reloading resulting in faster protein synthesis, its the secretion of insulin that does that.
Besides ride your bike to work and save the gas, two birds with one stone. Get to work and save gas. Glycogen restoration and protein synthesis.
By the way, I am not looking to argue this out. I am just saying that if you are consuming 60 grams of CHO PWO there is no harm in having 15-30 grams of that as mod-high GI carbs.
08-10-2005, 08:58 PM
Neither am I.Originally Posted by jonny21
Agreed, but everybody is different. Some people with faster metabolisms (younger kids) or higher activity levels can get away with just about anything....doesn't mean its optimal. I'm a good example of somebody who can't. I honestly think for me over the long haul (the last 2 years or so), consuming low-GI carbs PWO for my 4-5 WOs per week has made a big difference.
08-10-2005, 09:03 PM
High levels of insulin have not shown to improve protein synthesis when aminos are removed. Aminos are they key brother, not insulin.Originally Posted by jonny21
08-10-2005, 09:10 PM
As I said before, the biggest issue here is body composition and the consumption of the type of CHO (GI, nutrient density). ALL TYPES OF CHO WORK. My only argument is that if we tell people to try and consume nutrient rich forms of carbohydrate throughout the day, why would it be any different PWO? I see no reason why it should be. You wouldn't drink Coke all day if you were trying to lose weight..why would you drink one PWO?
08-10-2005, 09:14 PM
Well, I was assuming that we were not neglecting Pre-WO nutrition in this picture therefore we already have the pool of amino acids lurking about. Besides we are not talking high levels of insulin just insulin. See insulin works in two phases both contingent upon BG levels. But I agree to disagree on this one, I still believe the insulin is the key in PW protein synthesis. That's just what it does and what it is meant to do.Originally Posted by DieTrying
By the way I also eat low GI carbs (oats) PWO, but have them in 1 to 2 cups of fat free milk.
08-10-2005, 09:16 PM
Instead of arguing, you can give both methods a try. Once you've done so, make a decision on what works best for you. You won't really know until you try it. Am I right.
08-10-2005, 09:22 PM
Not at all trying to argue, trying to have a friendly discussion. Sorry if my tone comes off otherwise.Originally Posted by natedogg
I've personally tried both and know my results. Of course there are a lot of factors, but I just don't see how somebody could come away happier with their body comp in the long run using high-GI. Unless you're some sort of a genetic freak, high-GI carbs are more likely to be stored as fat. Thats what they do.
I think you guys see I feel pretty strongly about this one. Maybe I should stay out of this thread.
08-10-2005, 09:22 PM
I don't remember say to drink coke PWO. I was just thinking fat free milk, maybe some plain yogurt.Originally Posted by DieTrying
No animosity on this end either. This is just a lot better than taking to myself about what i am gonna eat after workout
08-10-2005, 09:25 PM
No I know you didn't say coke, I was just giving an example. You do realize that skim milk and yogurt are extremely low-GI (yogurt especially). Maybe thats why you're results are so good.Originally Posted by jonny21
08-10-2005, 09:27 PM
I'm not so much talking towards you as I am a other who are involved in or reading this thread. Myself, I'm all about trial and error. It may be a little primitive, but it works. Science isn't the end all. I know many bodybuilders who use high GI's post workout and do fine.Originally Posted by DieTrying
08-10-2005, 09:29 PM
Never do that. Its good to feel strongly about something, especially if it works for you. Just try to remain open to the other side, which I usually have a hard time doing. I just spend a most of my time discussing nutrition and when I hear things that are not necessarily true I'll say something.Originally Posted by DieTrying
08-10-2005, 09:33 PM
well there you go, here i am considering it moderate.Originally Posted by DieTrying
08-10-2005, 09:41 PM
If you really want a large surge of insulin PWO, why not go with a large dose of Leucine?
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