Best Legal or Illegal Fat Loss ďAidsĒ

Page 2 of 2 First 12

  1. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I love how you jump to these really weird extreme analogies. It actually made me smile.

    "You are kind of saying that an alcoholic can go into the liquor store to get a bottle of water. He is best avoiding the liquor store altogether."

    Thats not true at all. He would be best to learn how to deal with those urges because they are going to be presented with them every single day of their lives. You picked the wrong topic here pimpin. I got 30 years of 12 step program experience here. Dad has 30+ years of sobriety, I spent years in AlaNon and Alateen. The best solution is indeed for the alcoholic to learn to abstain in all situations and not expect others to change behavior to cater to their disease. Avoidance of the situation helps, and is far easier but in the end if the only place to get water is the liquor store and he needs water it is best he get it at the liquor store.

    However with what you are saying, which is that you do go to the liquor store to get water... IE fast food places, and decide fug it I am getting the chubby combo since I didn't pre plan a reasonable meal I must make a bad decision now that I am here. That is like trying to justify that since he went into the liquor store for water knowing he is an alcoholic he should go ahead and grab a few 5ths of whiskey because he hadn't made a plan to have water on hand. That's illogical and says exactly why you need to make better choices in those instances.

    You blamed the reason for the failure initially on not planning. I put a big hole in that by saying you are still responsible for your decision and there were just as convenient to get options at the same places you are already going to. That is fact and goes around the planning issue. Now it is the impulse control issue that you have to at least try to overcome. I only manage to control it about 80% of the time. Others I get the chubby meal too, but I am a lot less chubby than I would be if I just ate the goodies every time I found myself looking for a convenient meal.
    It isn't all that extreme an example actually. It is basic psychology. Planning trumps will power.

    I am not saying an alcoholic can't walk through a liquor store and grab a bottle of water. I am saying it really isn't a good idea on the regular. The situation isn't an ideal situation to put yourself in.

    Guess what, I am not an alcoholic. I have maybe had less than 30 alcoholic beverages in my entire life. I don't walk through liquor stores to get water because, well, it us hard to find a bottle of water in all that liquor. I don't hang out in bars. I don't regularly hang out with people who drink. I don't need to avoid it but what is the cause and effect? Maybe I don't need to avoid it because it never became a part of my bad habits.

    Fast food, however, did become part of my bad habits. Can I go there and order something special, sure. But it's a bit of a challenge because it's not typically on the menu and the employees usually get confused.

    I used to go to fast food places daily when I was 300 pounds. I stopped. Over the past years of not going, things have changed. I don't want to go. I have actually gone to fast food places and left because their menus are so confusing (since I am not used to it anymore) I don't even want to order something on the menu and can't begin to figure out how to modify what they have to what I want.

    I have also sat in plenty of lunch meetings on all kinds of places drinking black coffee while entire groups of people ate all kinds of things.

    Will power is all well and good and has its place, but if you don't have a plan to begin with, you will end up in an environment that caters to your weaknesses.

    Criminals end up hanging out with criminals and that is never good. Alcoholics often have to walk away from situations and people who are a bad influence.

    And this is studied and found to be the case over and over again. Environment is more powerful than your will power. That's it. You have to create the environment that drives you to what you want and away from what you don't want. Society creates a toxic environment and if you don't take steps to alter it for yourself, you will succumb to the sausage biscuit that you just drove by every 5 minutes on the highway.

    There is a book called "Change Anything" and one if the best examples I've ever heard was in this book:

    How many people do you know that have purchased a treadmill and never used it? (Presumably quite a few)

    How many people do you know that have purchased a TV and never used it? (Probably very close to no one)

    Now, where do these people usually put their treadmill? (Usually in their basement)

    Now, where do most people put the TV? (Usually the living room, in the center of their environment)

    Now, how often would they watch that TV if they had to go into their basement to use it?

    I would figure the TV will get far more use in the living room than in the basement.

    Now, it's not perfect and you can say "well some people have a home theater in their finished basement" but your missing the lesson.

    Our environment has a huge impact on our actions. People like to talk tough and claim will power is so important, but the studies show they are wrong. Will power fails. The environment that you create is the real key.

    Failure to plan is...i don't know, like failing to plan and stuff


  2. Thanks, sorry I didnít reply straight away because you know I do sleep occasionally!!!

    Anyway some decent advice, I appreciate it. I wear my Fitbit in work on a daily basis so I know roughly how many calories I burn etc and then use MyFitnessPal to log my food, a typical day (not every day) I try to stick to a 1000 cal deficit and try to stick to under 80g of carbs a day.

    Iím leaning more towards continuing to not take anything for a few more weeks then try Cardarine and SR9009 and see if that helps my plateau. Also Iíll try a bigger deficit and see how I function in work, Iím a scaffolder so if my energy levels drop too much from a bigger deficit it could be dangerous.
    •   
       


  3. Quote Originally Posted by huhihj View Post
    Thanks, sorry I didn’t reply straight away because you know I do sleep occasionally!!!

    Anyway some decent advice, I appreciate it. I wear my Fitbit in work on a daily basis so I know roughly how many calories I burn etc and then use MyFitnessPal to log my food, a typical day (not every day) I try to stick to a 1000 cal deficit and try to stick to under 80g of carbs a day.

    I’m leaning more towards continuing to not take anything for a few more weeks then try Cardarine and SR9009 and see if that helps my plateau. Also I’ll try a bigger deficit and see how I function in work, I’m a scaffolder so if my energy levels drop too much from a bigger deficit it could be dangerous.
    Mature response after all that flaming. Lol
    OLYMPUS LABS
    For product questions PM me or email:
    [email protected]

  4. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    It isn't all that extreme an example actually. It is basic psychology. Planning trumps will power.

    I am not saying an alcoholic can't walk through a liquor store and grab a bottle of water. I am saying it really isn't a good idea on the regular. The situation isn't an ideal situation to put yourself in.

    Guess what, I am not an alcoholic. I have maybe had less than 30 alcoholic beverages in my entire life. I don't walk through liquor stores to get water because, well, it us hard to find a bottle of water in all that liquor. I don't hang out in bars. I don't regularly hang out with people who drink. I don't need to avoid it but what is the cause and effect? Maybe I don't need to avoid it because it never became a part of my bad habits.

    Fast food, however, did become part of my bad habits. Can I go there and order something special, sure. But it's a bit of a challenge because it's not typically on the menu and the employees usually get confused.

    I used to go to fast food places daily when I was 300 pounds. I stopped. Over the past years of not going, things have changed. I don't want to go. I have actually gone to fast food places and left because their menus are so confusing (since I am not used to it anymore) I don't even want to order something on the menu and can't begin to figure out how to modify what they have to what I want.

    I have also sat in plenty of lunch meetings on all kinds of places drinking black coffee while entire groups of people ate all kinds of things.

    Will power is all well and good and has its place, but if you don't have a plan to begin with, you will end up in an environment that caters to your weaknesses.

    Criminals end up hanging out with criminals and that is never good. Alcoholics often have to walk away from situations and people who are a bad influence.

    And this is studied and found to be the case over and over again. Environment is more powerful than your will power. That's it. You have to create the environment that drives you to what you want and away from what you don't want. Society creates a toxic environment and if you don't take steps to alter it for yourself, you will succumb to the sausage biscuit that you just drove by every 5 minutes on the highway.

    There is a book called "Change Anything" and one if the best examples I've ever heard was in this book:

    How many people do you know that have purchased a treadmill and never used it? (Presumably quite a few)

    How many people do you know that have purchased a TV and never used it? (Probably very close to no one)

    Now, where do these people usually put their treadmill? (Usually in their basement)

    Now, where do most people put the TV? (Usually the living room, in the center of their environment)

    Now, how often would they watch that TV if they had to go into their basement to use it?

    I would figure the TV will get far more use in the living room than in the basement.

    Now, it's not perfect and you can say "well some people have a home theater in their finished basement" but your missing the lesson.

    Our environment has a huge impact on our actions. People like to talk tough and claim will power is so important, but the studies show they are wrong. Will power fails. The environment that you create is the real key.

    Failure to plan is...i don't know, like failing to plan and stuff
    Now you are making the case that consistently putting yourself the wrong situations causes the "When in Rome" Which I agree, but c'mon man... don't be ludicrous here. Why must it be an extreme? So you're saying a person who wants to eat better, has goals of eating better and is actually making an effort to do so but failed to plan on OCCASION, is going to make the wrong decision every time. That is just ludicrous.

    At some point you have to realize that when you allow weaknesses to limit you because it is hard that you will never improve. You can keep saying these crutches are justifiable reasons but they are not. They are factors and nothing else, but they become excuses if you try to use them as reasons.

    Secondly you know plenty about nutrition so all of your "I don't know what I should order" stuff is a ridiculous excuse... You may not want to go through the trouble to order it but again that is your choice to fail in that instance. You are the customer, you make the order, and if they get confused they are being paid to figure it out... it doesn't have to be fun for them, they are providing a service. As much as you know please don't try to tell me you couldn't fashion a keto meal, or a high carb low fat meal, or balanced meal... Even without knowing the nutritional data you can do this but almost all fast food places have the nutritional data on the website nowadays. You know too much to use that as an excuse. Don't play dumb to be devils advocate.

    Also, the TV analogy does not make sense in any way shape or form for this discussion. By going to the fast food place you ARE actually going to the basement to watch the TV!!!! The treadmill AKA kitchen is closer, and cheaper but you would still rather watch TV... So you make the trip. So we are really only discussing the quality of what you choose to watch while down there... Changing the channel isn't the inconvenient part here, getting to the TV was... now just choose better channels.

    Now you may be using the fail to plan in an extreme too. As in a guy wants to lose weight.... That's the end, no planning so that is where it stops... He wants to lose weight but has no plans to do anything about it.

    I think we can both agree to end the discussion there would be silly. I feel that in this instance failing to plan is more on an acute, and realistic level, instances like I forgot this or that. I forgot to do my food prep and had to wing it today. I am traveling and can't carry my food with me, whatever the situation that makes it inconvenient to get a healthy meal.

    You do not have to have a mapped out plan to know which food choices are better. If your only plan is to pick more appropriate serving sizes, and food choices at fast food places and you eat at them regularly then guess what... if you stick to that you will likely make progress weight.

    If you have a loose plan of eating better food choices and more appropriate serving sizes then that will also help at the fast food place.

    If you food prep normally, but forget and choose to go to a fast food spot, but still use sensible decision making then you will get to your goals more quickly.

    Also, look at all those examples of when you used willpower, but in an earlier post you implied almost as if bragging that if you go to a fast food spot you were simply going to over indulge. You made it sound as if you wouldn't have a choice due to psychological and environmental reactions to the environment of being in a fast food joint.

    Not true, you just showed so many times you opted to do the right thing in challenging situations. Almost seemed you got offended I acted like you couldn't BUT I was going off of how you presented yourself in that post. I know better from knowing you, but others reading this may not. So what is presented is what is discussed.

    There is only 1 reason why people choose inappropriate food choices or serving sizes when on a diet. They want it! That's it, end of discussion as far as reasons go... Now excuses, we can make up millions of them. People use extenuating circumstance, or any challenging factor as reasons why they didn't make the decision they knew they should. However they are just excuses and the reality is that they wanted the instant gratification more than they wanted the goal they were working towards.

    Me saying this is not me being on a soap box saying others do this or that. I do this myself, I sometimes choose a choice that is detrimental to my goals. However I don't mince words or bullshlt myself that I chose to do it and for whatever reason in that instance I decided it was more important than the goal... Not going to say I haven't regretted those decisions but they were my choice and in that instance I chose what I wanted MORE!

    If you choose to give fast food places that power over you, that is a choice to be a victim. Don't be a victim... If you can't do that then keep protein powder and carb or fat snacks around to eat whenever you don't plan and prep your food so you don't have to go to a fast food spot. Then again that is a plan right?
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  5. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Now you are making the case that consistently putting yourself the wrong situations causes the "When in Rome" Which I agree, but c'mon man... don't be ludicrous here. Why must it be an extreme? So you're saying a person who wants to eat better, has goals of eating better and is actually making an effort to do so but failed to plan on OCCASION, is going to make the wrong decision every time. That is just ludicrous.

    At some point you have to realize that when you allow weaknesses to limit you because it is hard that you will never improve. You can keep saying these crutches are justifiable reasons but they are not. They are factors and nothing else, but they become excuses if you try to use them as reasons.

    Secondly you know plenty about nutrition so all of your "I don't know what I should order" stuff is a ridiculous excuse... You may not want to go through the trouble to order it but again that is your choice to fail in that instance. You are the customer, you make the order, and if they get confused they are being paid to figure it out... it doesn't have to be fun for them, they are providing a service. As much as you know please don't try to tell me you couldn't fashion a keto meal, or a high carb low fat meal, or balanced meal... Even without knowing the nutritional data you can do this but almost all fast food places have the nutritional data on the website nowadays. You know too much to use that as an excuse. Don't play dumb to be devils advocate.

    Also, the TV analogy does not make sense in any way shape or form for this discussion. By going to the fast food place you ARE actually going to the basement to watch the TV!!!! The treadmill AKA kitchen is closer, and cheaper but you would still rather watch TV... So you make the trip. So we are really only discussing the quality of what you choose to watch while down there... Changing the channel isn't the inconvenient part here, getting to the TV was... now just choose better channels.

    Now you may be using the fail to plan in an extreme too. As in a guy wants to lose weight.... That's the end, no planning so that is where it stops... He wants to lose weight but has no plans to do anything about it.

    I think we can both agree to end the discussion there would be silly. I feel that in this instance failing to plan is more on an acute, and realistic level, instances like I forgot this or that. I forgot to do my food prep and had to wing it today. I am traveling and can't carry my food with me, whatever the situation that makes it inconvenient to get a healthy meal.

    You do not have to have a mapped out plan to know which food choices are better. If your only plan is to pick more appropriate serving sizes, and food choices at fast food places and you eat at them regularly then guess what... if you stick to that you will likely make progress weight.

    If you have a loose plan of eating better food choices and more appropriate serving sizes then that will also help at the fast food place.

    If you food prep normally, but forget and choose to go to a fast food spot, but still use sensible decision making then you will get to your goals more quickly.

    Also, look at all those examples of when you used willpower, but in an earlier post you implied almost as if bragging that if you go to a fast food spot you were simply going to over indulge. You made it sound as if you wouldn't have a choice due to psychological and environmental reactions to the environment of being in a fast food joint.

    Not true, you just showed so many times you opted to do the right thing in challenging situations. Almost seemed you got offended I acted like you couldn't BUT I was going off of how you presented yourself in that post. I know better from knowing you, but others reading this may not. So what is presented is what is discussed.

    There is only 1 reason why people choose inappropriate food choices or serving sizes when on a diet. They want it! That's it, end of discussion as far as reasons go... Now excuses, we can make up millions of them. People use extenuating circumstance, or any challenging factor as reasons why they didn't make the decision they knew they should. However they are just excuses and the reality is that they wanted the instant gratification more than they wanted the goal they were working towards.

    Me saying this is not me being on a soap box saying others do this or that. I do this myself, I sometimes choose a choice that is detrimental to my goals. However I don't mince words or bullshlt myself that I chose to do it and for whatever reason in that instance I decided it was more important than the goal... Not going to say I haven't regretted those decisions but they were my choice and in that instance I chose what I wanted MORE!

    If you choose to give fast food places that power over you, that is a choice to be a victim. Don't be a victim... If you can't do that then keep protein powder and carb or fat snacks around to eat whenever you don't plan and prep your food so you don't have to go to a fast food spot. Then again that is a plan right?
    I think you know we see eye to eye on most things and sometimes it is hard to discuss finer points over the internet.

    I think you are missing the larger point. It isn't at all about being a victim and motivational tough talk doesn't change reality.

    Look through threads of people failing at diets in here. There are a lot. They usually come down to a lack of planning and preparation. The fact is that in society we have fast food, convenient food and it is plentiful and everywhere. Finding healthy food is many times more difficult than finding unhealthy food. You can choose to think you can change that with will power, but you can't. That's naive and has nothing to do with being a victim. It's just how things are today.

    And no, you aren't going to the basement to watch TV in your example. Yes, the kitchen is closer but you need to understand the analogy.

    The kitchen is closer but it doesn't solve the problem if you are unprepared. If the kitchen doesn't have chicken, broccoli, egg whites, etc. ready to go and you can go and get a big Mac quicker and cheaper and with less effort then you are going to take the easier road more often than not. If you wanted to cut back on your TV consumption and it is in your living room, are you really telling me you wont watch it less if you move it into the basement or out of the house altogether?

    And guess what? If you are saying that it is going to happen once in a while and people want to do it so they will...great, I agree. But either you have a plan that you follow in some way 80-90% of the time and accept it when you don't follow the plan for whatever reason (lack of preparation, lack of time or, yes, I just want some junk), or you will succumb to the current every time.

    And sorry, but I see your justification for not being able to avoid a fast food joint to be an excuse...but ironically your own argument proves my point.

    Look at how much planning you have put into your fast food choices? You apparently have meal choices ready to go at Wendy's. To be honest, that takes quite a bit of planning. Maybe it doesn't seem like it because you made the plan a while ago and now it is second nature. But nobody walks into Wendy's and gets 40-50 grams of protein in a meal with under 500 caloreis by accident. You had to figure that out. Great. I haven't put the effort into figuring out how to order chicken and broccoli at McDonald's. I don't go there at all and I can eat out and find something as needed, but if I start eating out 5 nights a week we all know where that will lead.

    Eventually I am gonna day, fuggit gimme the chicken parm instead of the grilled chicken. And that meal at a restaurant will come with breadsticks and spaghetti and have 2000 calories. Am I weak or a victim? Whatever. Maybe I have no will power. Maybe it is a weakness. Who cares? Would it be more effective for me to try to be touch when I am not and go to Burger King everyday trying to resist? Seems a lot easier to just create a different environment with a plan and preparation.

    If my failing willpower makes me weak or a victim, what would you say about someone who can't make a plan, prepare for an outcome and follow the plan?
    •   
       


  6. Quote Originally Posted by huhihj View Post
    Thanks, sorry I didn’t reply straight away because you know I do sleep occasionally!!!

    Anyway some decent advice, I appreciate it. I wear my Fitbit in work on a daily basis so I know roughly how many calories I burn etc and then use MyFitnessPal to log my food, a typical day (not every day) I try to stick to a 1000 cal deficit and try to stick to under 80g of carbs a day.

    I’m leaning more towards continuing to not take anything for a few more weeks then try Cardarine and SR9009 and see if that helps my plateau. Also I’ll try a bigger deficit and see how I function in work, I’m a scaffolder so if my energy levels drop too much from a bigger deficit it could be dangerous.
    Nice job so far brother, and yes - great response.

    1,000 calorie deficits are pretty large. I am not against it at all, but a lot of people wouldn't go that far even. Good for you, and definitely be safe on your job.

    How long have you been stuck at your plateau? This happens a lot to people for a few reasons. There are two things that are pretty common:

    1. A lot of times people start off at a higher bodyfat and the weight just comes off. It is consistent and fairly "easy" ...and I use easy loosely as it can still require a lot of work. Then as you get lower the weight loss changes. It becomes less "linear". You may end up going 2-6 days where you are doing everything right and your weight isn't changing. Sometimes you will even gain a pound and you KNOW it shouldn't be possible. You think you are stuck and then on one day you wake up and you have suddenly lost 3-4 pounds like magic.

    2. When you are heavier your metabolism is faster. It just takes more energy to move when you are 250 vs. 200, for example. You start at the heavier weight, calculate your TDEE, do your deficit and everything goes great. Then you lose a bunch of weight and you are burning less calories and you are still calculating your TDEE off your old bodyweight. You may have to recalculate and adjust your calories a little.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Nice job so far brother, and yes - great response.

    1,000 calorie deficits are pretty large. I am not against it at all, but a lot of people wouldn't go that far even. Good for you, and definitely be safe on your job.

    How long have you been stuck at your plateau? This happens a lot to people for a few reasons. There are two things that are pretty common:

    1. A lot of times people start off at a higher bodyfat and the weight just comes off. It is consistent and fairly "easy" ...and I use easy loosely as it can still require a lot of work. Then as you get lower the weight loss changes. It becomes less "linear". You may end up going 2-6 days where you are doing everything right and your weight isn't changing. Sometimes you will even gain a pound and you KNOW it shouldn't be possible. You think you are stuck and then on one day you wake up and you have suddenly lost 3-4 pounds like magic.

    2. When you are heavier your metabolism is faster. It just takes more energy to move when you are 250 vs. 200, for example. You start at the heavier weight, calculate your TDEE, do your deficit and everything goes great. Then you lose a bunch of weight and you are burning less calories and you are still calculating your TDEE off your old bodyweight. You may have to recalculate and adjust your calories a little.
    Been stuck since before Christmas, I still trained and did cardio over Christmas but thought with the added calories Iíd consumed that it would kind of restart my weight loss and metabolism but it seems like itís been the opposite! Maybe your right that because Iíve near enough stayed the same weight that itís just temporary and in a few weeks itíll kick start again and Iíll be good to go. I did reevaluate my TDEE and adjusted my diet accordingly, thatís why I was looking for something to give myself a little boost but like you say could just wake up tomorrow and Iíll be a few pounds down.
    Nice one mate, appreciate the feedback.

  8. I was just diagnosed with the Flu, so the Doctor prescribed a few things including Albuterol.
    That's a good way to drop some weight...

    Seriously though.

    You may be doing your insulin resistance some harm by being in such a deficit. Up your calories to a 500 kcal deficit.
    You're storing fat because your body is telling the pancreas to work harder and shift to fat storage in lieu of starvation.

    A good way to counter is a re-feed. Pick a day and carb load, then drop to a deficit.
    Also, maybe consider a GDA along with Intermittent Fasting.

    I bet you get a lot of suggestions.
    I just ordered GlycÝshield.
    BLACK LION RESEARCH
    I am an ambassador of being healthy; fit, and smart.
    15% code: MARK15

  9. Quote Originally Posted by justhere4comm View Post
    I was just diagnosed with the Flu, so the Doctor prescribed a few things including Albuterol.
    That's a good way to drop some weight...

    Seriously though.

    You may be doing your insulin resistance some harm by being in such a deficit. Up your calories to a 500 kcal deficit.
    You're storing fat because your body is telling the pancreas to work harder and shift to fat storage in lieu of starvation.

    A good way to counter is a re-feed. Pick a day and carb load, then drop to a deficit.
    Also, maybe consider a GDA along with Intermittent Fasting.

    I bet you get a lot of suggestions.
    I just ordered GlycÝshield.
    Do GDAís actually work though? And if they do how?

  10. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    I think you know we see eye to eye on most things and sometimes it is hard to discuss finer points over the internet.

    I think you are missing the larger point. It isn't at all about being a victim and motivational tough talk doesn't change reality.

    Look through threads of people failing at diets in here. There are a lot. They usually come down to a lack of planning and preparation. The fact is that in society we have fast food, convenient food and it is plentiful and everywhere. Finding healthy food is many times more difficult than finding unhealthy food. You can choose to think you can change that with will power, but you can't. That's naive and has nothing to do with being a victim. It's just how things are today.

    And no, you aren't going to the basement to watch TV in your example. Yes, the kitchen is closer but you need to understand the analogy.

    The kitchen is closer but it doesn't solve the problem if you are unprepared. If the kitchen doesn't have chicken, broccoli, egg whites, etc. ready to go and you can go and get a big Mac quicker and cheaper and with less effort then you are going to take the easier road more often than not. If you wanted to cut back on your TV consumption and it is in your living room, are you really telling me you wont watch it less if you move it into the basement or out of the house altogether?

    And guess what? If you are saying that it is going to happen once in a while and people want to do it so they will...great, I agree. But either you have a plan that you follow in some way 80-90% of the time and accept it when you don't follow the plan for whatever reason (lack of preparation, lack of time or, yes, I just want some junk), or you will succumb to the current every time.

    And sorry, but I see your justification for not being able to avoid a fast food joint to be an excuse...but ironically your own argument proves my point.

    Look at how much planning you have put into your fast food choices? You apparently have meal choices ready to go at Wendy's. To be honest, that takes quite a bit of planning. Maybe it doesn't seem like it because you made the plan a while ago and now it is second nature. But nobody walks into Wendy's and gets 40-50 grams of protein in a meal with under 500 caloreis by accident. You had to figure that out. Great. I haven't put the effort into figuring out how to order chicken and broccoli at McDonald's. I don't go there at all and I can eat out and find something as needed, but if I start eating out 5 nights a week we all know where that will lead.

    Eventually I am gonna day, fuggit gimme the chicken parm instead of the grilled chicken. And that meal at a restaurant will come with breadsticks and spaghetti and have 2000 calories. Am I weak or a victim? Whatever. Maybe I have no will power. Maybe it is a weakness. Who cares? Would it be more effective for me to try to be touch when I am not and go to Burger King everyday trying to resist? Seems a lot easier to just create a different environment with a plan and preparation.

    If my failing willpower makes me weak or a victim, what would you say about someone who can't make a plan, prepare for an outcome and follow the plan?
    I am not missing any picture. I understand the analogy. You are just using it unrealistically. Unless we are talking about complete morons who don't stock their refrigerators at all... Again then we are back to the complete lack of planning scenario which I already said in the last post was ridiculous unrealistic and not going to be entertained. IE... "A man wants to lose weight but plans to do nothing about it." Thats a man without a plan.. Any plan no matter how minimal it is qualifies as a plan, so in that regard you are correct, but that is a useless conversation. I addressed that in my last post. Using unrealistic extremes like a guy who never has food, and always eats at fast food places WHILE trying to lose weight to prove your point just doesn't make sense in reality. IE... no one in their right mind is doing this.

    Yes, if you are a someone who wants to lose weight but chooses to go to a fast food place daily you are more than likely going to end up eating the wrong choices if you already have a propensity to do so. No one is arguing that point in the slightest. Sooner or later they will probably choose to give in and get the goodies. However if they say that it was a result of the environment and not their choice then that is a victim mentality. No one forces them into those places and the correct choice is to minimize exposure to the environment, but learn to cope when in the environment.

    However, a person who is trying to lose weight is extremely unlikely to go to fast food places every single day. No reasonable person anyway. That scenario is unrealistic to prove the point you are trying to make. Same with the TV analogy, and the fact that it only applies if the person regularly has NO FOOD in the house, causing them to regularly go to eat fast food. Again if this is the case then that person is either completely unreasonable, or not trying to lose weight. They may have a desire but that is it.

    It has been obvious from the beginning that I am referring to what to do in the same 10-20% of the time you end up unprepared. Times where the plan was not met for whatever reason, and I clarified that in my last post. This people who are trying to lose weight going to fast food consistently situation is a nonreality for anyone who is even moderately sensible so unless we are dealing with highly unintelligent people here lets not even make that argument. It definitely should not apply to ANYONE who cares enough about fitness or diet to be on this board reading these posts...

    Also, I went back looking for where I said something about me having no choice but to go to a fast food place. I must have missed it when I went back and reread my posts looking for it. I tried to find it to see what the context of me saying that would be since I don't remember saying it. Now I can't find it so I can't respond to that comment. Please show me where I said it so I can refer to the context.

    Failing willpower does not make you victim minded, blaming the environment for your personal decision does.
    Saying I got the double whopper meal because I was at Burger King, when you can get healthy options there is an excuse.
    Saying "I was at burger king and decided I wanted the double meat more than I wanted abs that day!" is not an excuse and is not victim minded.

    You are talking about someone putting themselves in a bad position for their goals over and over again then saying "Oh well I couldn't help it, it's because Burger king is fast food" That's a victim mindset. Somehow they forget they chose to continue going to burger king consistently.


    I do agree failure to plan is planning to fail, but failing to plan for when a plan fails is planning to fail too!!!!!! The options I gave were created on the days that I did not have a plan, or had failed to prepare. So it wasn't part of the plan, but came about as a reaction to not planning or preparing. Now that I have the options I don't need to plan, just pick from my already found out options. I have been working downtown for 15 years now, and there is a wendy's right by me. It wasn't hard to end up with a grouping of things that fit macros over the span of the 15 years. I have also been dieting for a long time and have a pretty good idea that buns have carbs in them, and burgers are going to be higher in fat than a grilled chicken breast, or a baked potato has less fat than french fries. For you to use that as an argument is reaching because we have debated nutrition heavily enough that I know you know enough to make better choices even if you don't know the exact macros. I looked up the macros after I made the snap decision to eat what I chose because I was tracking things heavily at the time. I didn't find out the macros then order. However now I do, if I failed to bring a lunch in and want something different I go to the website look at the nutritional data and decide what I need to order to be close to my macros. That isn't planning that is reacting to not being prepared.

    I learned a long time ago that unless in competition prep, I am simply not going to adhere more than 80-90% It is just a reality for me. Could I do 100 probably but it would require a heavy bit of external motivation. I have ADHD, and forget to do things often so unless the diet and training are my #1 priority then 85% adherence is excellent for me and I can do really well on just that. It also means that I am had to teach myself to make better decisions at fast food places when I forgot to prep my food and didn't have a shake up here or just didn't want to settle for a shake.

    I might end up at a fast food 2-4 times a month, but I have not gone into one while dieting and intending to eat well and then ordered the fatburger in a couple years at least. I have went to a fast food joint explicitly to get the fatburger and jumbo fries though, but that was my choice, and made before I got there.

    I am really not sure why me giving multiple solutions to making healthier decisions at some fast food places became a concept that you would think negatively of and speak so heavily against using. Especially since you mention finding yourself in the situation 10-20% of the time. For some reason you have been trying to shoot the better options down with unlikely scenarios and reasons why if you are in the fast food situation you will just eat junk. If anything in this instance you would think that you might be like "Hey thanks for those options, I didn't know what to order at those places now I have some better options."

    In the end we are only arguing where your idea of planning starts, or ends. Like I said it seems you are choosing the extreme of no plan literally means no plan. IE... The guy who wants to lose weight but has no plan to do anything about it." is a man with no planning. A guy who wants to lose weight, and decides he is just going to try to eat a little better indeed has a plan. I don't think we need to be discussing either of these extremes when they are completely unrealistic for those who care enough about nutrition or fitness to be on this forum reading this thread. I would theorize there is not anyone here who thinks it would be prudent to continuously go to fast food places over and over again while dieting unless they had some specific foods that fit well into their macros.

    I myself have proven that you can teach yourself to go into a fast food joint and order better choices. Like I said it has been a couple years since I went into a fast food joint intending to eat better choices, and not gotten the better choices. That is not to say that I have not went specifically for a Texas Double Whopper Meal multiple times, but those were completely intended and not part of this discussion.

    This scenario reminds me an awful lot of the whole Catholics insisting on abstinence, and refusing contraceptives. They know they probably can't abstain but still refuse contraceptives at their own detriment due to their religious belief... as a result more someone gets pregnant or an STD... Your ideal of total avoidance of fast food places is like insisting on abstinence, when abstinence is extremely unlikely. Then saying well since we couldn't abstain we could at least minimize the damage by making good choices but nah, lets make the wrong one and sabotage our goals.

    Again, you seem to be stuck on people going to fast food places daily... that is an extreme and and pretty unrealistic one for anyone trying to lose weight. Extremes should not be used for analogies, medians should so that they are recognizable and applicable to the masses, not only to the outliers. A person going to a fast food place 5 days a week while trying to eat healthier is definitely an outlier.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  11. By the way to anyone who doesn't already know, @HIT4ME and I enjoy debating and discussing things like this. We respect each other and no one is getting offended here we just enjoy the good discussion.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  12. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    By the way to anyone who doesn't already know, @HIT4ME and I enjoy debating and discussing things like this. We respect each other and no one is getting offended here we just enjoy the good discussion.
    Whaaaaa???? You aren't offended yet? Damn, I am not trying hard enough I guess

    Screw you @Mrkleen. How's that?

  13. Name:  giphy-49.gif
Views: 131
Size:  691.2 KB
    BLACK LION RESEARCH
    I am an ambassador of being healthy; fit, and smart.
    15% code: MARK15

  14. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    By the way to anyone who doesn't already know, @HIT4ME and I enjoy debating and discussing things like this. We respect each other and no one is getting offended here we just enjoy the good discussion.
    Except for all of the Catholics you just offended with your asinine analogy.

    FYI-when you show me the Lord commanding us to make healthy food choices, then you might have something.
    Catholics are just ridiculous: somehow we think that Jesus was serious when he talked about a man and his wife becoming one flesh (which contraception pretty much negates)

  15. Quote Originally Posted by scherbs View Post
    Except for all of the Catholics you just offended with your asinine analogy.

    FYI-when you show me the Lord commanding us to make healthy food choices, then you might have something.
    Catholics are just ridiculous: somehow we think that Jesus was serious when he talked about a man and his wife becoming one flesh (which contraception pretty much negates)
    Oh, and we hardly insist on abstinence-we just make the (biblically aligned) claim that it should be between a man and his wife.
    Pretty much takes care of that STD problem.

  16. I don’t think they are ridiculous and did not say that. I have friends in all religions. Please don’t put words in my mouth. Also it wasn’t an analogy I said it reminded me of that. It does. Sorry to offend your religion. It wasn’t the intention. I am not religious and that is my understanding of the situation. That outside of marriage abstinence is expected. Not achieved all the time and when already sinning out of wedlock then it makes sense to sin with a contraceptive too. Yet I have had more than a few discussions with people who were having sex out of wedlock that told me they weren’t allowed to use contraceptives. So that is why I said that. Not taking a jab at them just in that situation the logic doesn’t make sense. I realize the way I said Catholics sound like all but I meant those who do this. So I apologize for lumping it all into the Catholic religion and not pointing out I mean those in that specific situation.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  17. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    I am not missing any picture. I understand the analogy. You are just using it unrealistically. Unless we are talking about complete morons who don't stock their refrigerators at all... Again then we are back to the complete lack of planning scenario which I already said in the last post was ridiculous unrealistic and not going to be entertained. IE... "A man wants to lose weight but plans to do nothing about it." Thats a man without a plan.. Any plan no matter how minimal it is qualifies as a plan, so in that regard you are correct, but that is a useless conversation. I addressed that in my last post. Using unrealistic extremes like a guy who never has food, and always eats at fast food places WHILE trying to lose weight to prove your point just doesn't make sense in reality. IE... no one in their right mind is doing this.

    Yes, if you are a someone who wants to lose weight but chooses to go to a fast food place daily you are more than likely going to end up eating the wrong choices if you already have a propensity to do so. No one is arguing that point in the slightest. Sooner or later they will probably choose to give in and get the goodies. However if they say that it was a result of the environment and not their choice then that is a victim mentality. No one forces them into those places and the correct choice is to minimize exposure to the environment, but learn to cope when in the environment.

    However, a person who is trying to lose weight is extremely unlikely to go to fast food places every single day. No reasonable person anyway. That scenario is unrealistic to prove the point you are trying to make. Same with the TV analogy, and the fact that it only applies if the person regularly has NO FOOD in the house, causing them to regularly go to eat fast food. Again if this is the case then that person is either completely unreasonable, or not trying to lose weight. They may have a desire but that is it.

    It has been obvious from the beginning that I am referring to what to do in the same 10-20% of the time you end up unprepared. Times where the plan was not met for whatever reason, and I clarified that in my last post. This people who are trying to lose weight going to fast food consistently situation is a nonreality for anyone who is even moderately sensible so unless we are dealing with highly unintelligent people here lets not even make that argument. It definitely should not apply to ANYONE who cares enough about fitness or diet to be on this board reading these posts...

    Also, I went back looking for where I said something about me having no choice but to go to a fast food place. I must have missed it when I went back and reread my posts looking for it. I tried to find it to see what the context of me saying that would be since I don't remember saying it. Now I can't find it so I can't respond to that comment. Please show me where I said it so I can refer to the context.

    Failing willpower does not make you victim minded, blaming the environment for your personal decision does.
    Saying I got the double whopper meal because I was at Burger King, when you can get healthy options there is an excuse.
    Saying "I was at burger king and decided I wanted the double meat more than I wanted abs that day!" is not an excuse and is not victim minded.

    You are talking about someone putting themselves in a bad position for their goals over and over again then saying "Oh well I couldn't help it, it's because Burger king is fast food" That's a victim mindset. Somehow they forget they chose to continue going to burger king consistently.


    I do agree failure to plan is planning to fail, but failing to plan for when a plan fails is planning to fail too!!!!!! The options I gave were created on the days that I did not have a plan, or had failed to prepare. So it wasn't part of the plan, but came about as a reaction to not planning or preparing. Now that I have the options I don't need to plan, just pick from my already found out options. I have been working downtown for 15 years now, and there is a wendy's right by me. It wasn't hard to end up with a grouping of things that fit macros over the span of the 15 years. I have also been dieting for a long time and have a pretty good idea that buns have carbs in them, and burgers are going to be higher in fat than a grilled chicken breast, or a baked potato has less fat than french fries. For you to use that as an argument is reaching because we have debated nutrition heavily enough that I know you know enough to make better choices even if you don't know the exact macros. I looked up the macros after I made the snap decision to eat what I chose because I was tracking things heavily at the time. I didn't find out the macros then order. However now I do, if I failed to bring a lunch in and want something different I go to the website look at the nutritional data and decide what I need to order to be close to my macros. That isn't planning that is reacting to not being prepared.

    I learned a long time ago that unless in competition prep, I am simply not going to adhere more than 80-90% It is just a reality for me. Could I do 100 probably but it would require a heavy bit of external motivation. I have ADHD, and forget to do things often so unless the diet and training are my #1 priority then 85% adherence is excellent for me and I can do really well on just that. It also means that I am had to teach myself to make better decisions at fast food places when I forgot to prep my food and didn't have a shake up here or just didn't want to settle for a shake.

    I might end up at a fast food 2-4 times a month, but I have not gone into one while dieting and intending to eat well and then ordered the fatburger in a couple years at least. I have went to a fast food joint explicitly to get the fatburger and jumbo fries though, but that was my choice, and made before I got there.

    I am really not sure why me giving multiple solutions to making healthier decisions at some fast food places became a concept that you would think negatively of and speak so heavily against using. Especially since you mention finding yourself in the situation 10-20% of the time. For some reason you have been trying to shoot the better options down with unlikely scenarios and reasons why if you are in the fast food situation you will just eat junk. If anything in this instance you would think that you might be like "Hey thanks for those options, I didn't know what to order at those places now I have some better options."

    In the end we are only arguing where your idea of planning starts, or ends. Like I said it seems you are choosing the extreme of no plan literally means no plan. IE... The guy who wants to lose weight but has no plan to do anything about it." is a man with no planning. A guy who wants to lose weight, and decides he is just going to try to eat a little better indeed has a plan. I don't think we need to be discussing either of these extremes when they are completely unrealistic for those who care enough about nutrition or fitness to be on this forum reading this thread. I would theorize there is not anyone here who thinks it would be prudent to continuously go to fast food places over and over again while dieting unless they had some specific foods that fit well into their macros.

    I myself have proven that you can teach yourself to go into a fast food joint and order better choices. Like I said it has been a couple years since I went into a fast food joint intending to eat better choices, and not gotten the better choices. That is not to say that I have not went specifically for a Texas Double Whopper Meal multiple times, but those were completely intended and not part of this discussion.

    This scenario reminds me an awful lot of the whole Catholics insisting on abstinence, and refusing contraceptives. They know they probably can't abstain but still refuse contraceptives at their own detriment due to their religious belief... as a result more someone gets pregnant or an STD... Your ideal of total avoidance of fast food places is like insisting on abstinence, when abstinence is extremely unlikely. Then saying well since we couldn't abstain we could at least minimize the damage by making good choices but nah, lets make the wrong one and sabotage our goals.

    Again, you seem to be stuck on people going to fast food places daily... that is an extreme and and pretty unrealistic one for anyone trying to lose weight. Extremes should not be used for analogies, medians should so that they are recognizable and applicable to the masses, not only to the outliers. A person going to a fast food place 5 days a week while trying to eat healthier is definitely an outlier.
    Well, I keep looking at this and I want to reply but I am having a crazy week and the sheer volume of your thoughts is difficult to deal with! I am supposed to be the long winded one here, haha.

    As to your comment above about people getting offended, I want to add to that really quickly. I use "you" and "I" with Kleen a lot in our debates, but it isn't really a personal you and I...it is for example or to represent a side of the debate. To his immense credit, he seems to understand that. Also, to be honest, I don't consider myself to have the level of knowledge that Kleen has...it is incredible how much he knows.

    Having said that, it's good that he is wrong sometimes and I can argue with him when I have the truth on my side

    Now, MrKleen think the distinction in the argument that I would like to make, since I don't know how to respond point by point just yet, is the "victim" or blame stuff.

    I think you and I both agree that will power and free choice is paramount. But I think, not to put words in your mouth, you feel my side of the debate is taking blame off the individual and placing it on society. That is not my intent.

    I am trying to point out that standing there and making decisions on the fly isn't always the best way to do things. Knowledge that your environment actually has control over you is empowering. Once you realize this, you can make choices that change your environment and then you have leverage on your choices. It is a big part of the reason people achieve things and then go back to their old ways, they use motivation to overcome the environment they are in, but then they get what they want and they stop fighting the environment.

    For me, my original point is that pyrobat said people have an aversion to tracking food intake. I agree with this and was saying, I need to go a step further. I have to plan it out.

    If I wake up in the morning and say, "what am I going to eat"....then what I FEEL like eating is going to effect my decision because I am making it right then.

    But if I plan a meal that I SHOULD be eating the night before when I have no immediate gratification or any desire pulling on me, then I wake up and there is no decision, it is, "ok, time to make breakfast" and there is no decision about what that will be and no influence from the fact that if I think about it I may want something I shouldn't be eating.

    And, it may not be normal in your eyes, but I have plenty of times when I have very little to eat in my house. I have had times in life where I was busy and didn't care and literally ate out every day and my fridge was near empty. Is that someone who wants to be in shape? No, but life pulls in directions other than that. And I had to make decisions to change that environment.

    Just like someone making a decision to put their treadmill in their living room instead of their basement.

    Or, one thing I learned doing the PSMF was that once I made the decision to basically not eat, those on the fly decisions were gone, and I realized how often I would walk by a candy dish and grab a piece of candy and never think about it, or grab something from the fridge when I came home without thinking. I saw it and would eat it subconsciously. That's not healthy either, but having a plan and rearranging your environment to create better gravity is important.

    And I am not saying I don't have this under control better now...although I still work at it and I am not good at everything, but I realize that a lot of people are starting where I did too, and they winder why they can't lose weight. What we do involves skills, etc. We have improved on those skills and are still improving. But many people wonder why they can't lose weight and to just say, "your choices suck" doesn't really give a complete answer. They aren't losing weight because they don't even realize that they are defaulting to societies environment, which is bad. They need to plan a new environment AND become aware of their choices AND learn what good choices are. And you can actually ignore the environment and power through on motivation, but that doesn't last usually.

    And, I don't disagree with your strategies of having healthier meals at Wendy's, etc. But those are learned skills. I can walk into a convenience store and find 30 grams of protein or more with 200-300 calories if I am in a pinch. You are doing the same thing at the fast food places..nothing wrong, but it took some prep and practice to get there and you had yo start with a plan of what you were looking to achieve.

    Once you figured it out, you had it and had a fall back and that is good.

    And not everyone needs to plan like I do, some people can just track and there are some people who just eat whatever they feel like and they do fine.

    And yes, when the plan goes wrong, having a plan for when the plan fails is important (grilled chicken at wendys).

    And hopefully you end up with 10-20% left over from that planning where you can enjoy a cheeseburger with bacon.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by HIT4ME View Post
    Well, I keep looking at this and I want to reply but I am having a crazy week and the sheer volume of your thoughts is difficult to deal with! I am supposed to be the long winded one here, haha.

    As to your comment above about people getting offended, I want to add to that really quickly. I use "you" and "I" with Kleen a lot in our debates, but it isn't really a personal you and I...it is for example or to represent a side of the debate. To his immense credit, he seems to understand that. Also, to be honest, I don't consider myself to have the level of knowledge that Kleen has...it is incredible how much he knows.

    Having said that, it's good that he is wrong sometimes and I can argue with him when I have the truth on my side

    Now, MrKleen think the distinction in the argument that I would like to make, since I don't know how to respond point by point just yet, is the "victim" or blame stuff.

    I think you and I both agree that will power and free choice is paramount. But I think, not to put words in your mouth, you feel my side of the debate is taking blame off the individual and placing it on society. That is not my intent.

    I am trying to point out that standing there and making decisions on the fly isn't always the best way to do things. Knowledge that your environment actually has control over you is empowering. Once you realize this, you can make choices that change your environment and then you have leverage on your choices. It is a big part of the reason people achieve things and then go back to their old ways, they use motivation to overcome the environment they are in, but then they get what they want and they stop fighting the environment.

    For me, my original point is that pyrobat said people have an aversion to tracking food intake. I agree with this and was saying, I need to go a step further. I have to plan it out.

    If I wake up in the morning and say, "what am I going to eat"....then what I FEEL like eating is going to effect my decision because I am making it right then.

    But if I plan a meal that I SHOULD be eating the night before when I have no immediate gratification or any desire pulling on me, then I wake up and there is no decision, it is, "ok, time to make breakfast" and there is no decision about what that will be and no influence from the fact that if I think about it I may want something I shouldn't be eating.

    And, it may not be normal in your eyes, but I have plenty of times when I have very little to eat in my house. I have had times in life where I was busy and didn't care and literally ate out every day and my fridge was near empty. Is that someone who wants to be in shape? No, but life pulls in directions other than that. And I had to make decisions to change that environment.

    Just like someone making a decision to put their treadmill in their living room instead of their basement.

    Or, one thing I learned doing the PSMF was that once I made the decision to basically not eat, those on the fly decisions were gone, and I realized how often I would walk by a candy dish and grab a piece of candy and never think about it, or grab something from the fridge when I came home without thinking. I saw it and would eat it subconsciously. That's not healthy either, but having a plan and rearranging your environment to create better gravity is important.

    And I am not saying I don't have this under control better now...although I still work at it and I am not good at everything, but I realize that a lot of people are starting where I did too, and they winder why they can't lose weight. What we do involves skills, etc. We have improved on those skills and are still improving. But many people wonder why they can't lose weight and to just say, "your choices suck" doesn't really give a complete answer. They aren't losing weight because they don't even realize that they are defaulting to societies environment, which is bad. They need to plan a new environment AND become aware of their choices AND learn what good choices are. And you can actually ignore the environment and power through on motivation, but that doesn't last usually.

    And, I don't disagree with your strategies of having healthier meals at Wendy's, etc. But those are learned skills. I can walk into a convenience store and find 30 grams of protein or more with 200-300 calories if I am in a pinch. You are doing the same thing at the fast food places..nothing wrong, but it took some prep and practice to get there and you had yo start with a plan of what you were looking to achieve.

    Once you figured it out, you had it and had a fall back and that is good.

    And not everyone needs to plan like I do, some people can just track and there are some people who just eat whatever they feel like and they do fine.

    And yes, when the plan goes wrong, having a plan for when the plan fails is important (grilled chicken at wendys).

    And hopefully you end up with 10-20% left over from that planning where you can enjoy a cheeseburger with bacon.
    First off, GREAT RESPONSE!

    Only things I would take exceptions to is the statement that "your environment has power over you" I would agree with the sentiment, but feel that saying something has power over you is still saying that you don't have the control. However ultimately you do. That is where I mention the victim mentallity, when you feel you have no control and that external forces are resonsible for your situation and not your decisions. So in my opinion it is extremely important to change that speech to change the mindset. I would say Once you realize your environment influences you then you can learn what environments you need to minimize due to them causing you overwhelming temptation. In this scenario and speech pattern the person is taking control and responsibility for their decisions while still adjusting behavior based on environmental factors and the level of influence they still have on the individual.

    In the end we both completely agree that those new to this game should probably be pretty staunch about planning and following the plan until they develop more self awareness, familiarity with some macros and have created some better habits. Then less planning is needed for lifestyle type dieting.

    I would honestly say that years of tracking has me where I am now that I can look at a lot of whole food options especially single items and estimate macros reasonably. So yeah there is that. It is also why I like to share the easy and convenient options I have come up with, so they have an easy go to.

    By the way, a bun-less double meat whopper isn't even under 500 cals... I know for sure it is right at-30g fat per patty so there is up to 540 calories in fat alone. YIKES!!!! The average I have seen at all the major fast food chains has been 30g of fat per 1/4lb burger. Probably just how it breaks down for 1/4 lb of ground chuck.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  19. I'm a mason, I poured concrete for 12 hours yesterday came home showered, drank some black coffee & pre workout then lifted & ate a steak!
    just because you think your job is " basically like working out for 8 hours a day" doesn't mean you are actually working out, you still need to put in work after!
    I understand that our type of work we can't eat on a regular scheduled pattern, but buy yourself some Quest bars have 1 or 2 a day for a quick snack!
    stop eating sandwiches for 1.. if you want one use lettuce as bread! but better to stay away from them all together, sliced cheese is garbage!
    see where I'm going? diet is key, bring a shaker cup full of protein then mic with water at work, eat chicken/steak n veggies for lunch & dinner...Meal prep is key, intake zero sugar.. no sodas.. just stick to water, green tea & black coffee.. carbs should be clean, not processed crap! go on reddit r/Keto & go Keto if you want, I do keto but still eat carbs & I use Exogenous Ketones after carb intake! buy BCAA's *sugar free and add it to your water you drink during the day
    CARDARINE and SR9009 are fine but I am always hesitant to order because I don't want to end up with bunk/low does crap & I don't know any 100% trusted sources!
    you can get DNP easily in the UK but NEVER NEVER EVER take it especially in your line of work.. you will cook yourself from the inside out & die in agony!
    If I were you, I would save money... and run Test E,C whatever for 12 weeks alongside T3 & Icon 11 also run HGH at 4iu a day for 6 months! Keep your diet around 3-3.5k cals considering you burn lots of cals at work! Remember muscle burns fat.. so by adding muscle you will not only look better but you will burn more fat... other things to take, krill oil 5000mg day, D3 5000iu day, cayenne pepper pills, melatonin * at night, green apples & cold showers! the last 4 have been shown to increase white fat turning to brown fat cells which is more easily burned off then white fat!

  20. Legal triazole aka a estrogen blocker so you cant form fat with no carbs. Illegal that pesticide that makes you burn everything you eat (risk of burning out! Literally cook alive) works wonders
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Best peptide combination for Fat Loss?
    By Mr.50 in forum IGF-1/GH
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 03-23-2008, 07:58 PM
  2. Avant Research needs YOUR help- more mass or more fat loss first??
    By Sir Savage in forum Company Promotions
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-17-2007, 01:00 PM
  3. Best Fat Loss Aid?
    By mikejamez2 in forum Supplements
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-14-2007, 09:35 PM
  4. prohormones legal or illegal?
    By calidood in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 05-11-2007, 10:47 PM
Log in
Log in