Low GI Post workout drink, really???

[Draven]

Bobo's gonna hate me for this but, after reading and debating the Hi vs Low GI post WO drink I decided to do some investigation of my own and I'm now more confused than ever. After reading the two studies produced by Bobo in another thread they where "The effects of simple-carbohydrate (CHO)- and complex-CHO-rich diets on skeletal muscle glycogen content were compared" and "The effect of free glutamine and peptide ingestion on the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in man.". However after closer investigation I realize these may have been misinterrepted.

First, in the study of complex vs simple CHO, this study was conducted over a 3 day time where no resistance training was involved and glycogen depletion was only achieved from a previous 3 day low carb diet. Now this may speak in terms of types of CHO to use in ones regular diet but I don't think this is a good claim to a low GI post workout drink.

Second, in the study of glycogen resysnthesis, it was claimed that resysnthesis was the same in the whey/wheat group as the glucose/glutamine group, but what I think may have been overlooked was that they ALL consumed the same amount of glucose with their respective drinks and now GI level is given. To me this only proves that the addition of protein to a post workout shake has no effect on glycogen resysnthesis.

Now I decide to grab a few studies that do show a difference in a low vs high GI post workout drink, these are:

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Sports Med 1997 Mar;23(3):164-72 Related Articles, Links


Glycaemic index and optimal performance.

Walton P, Rhodes EC.

School of Human Kinetics, University of British Columbia, Vancouver, Canada.

It is widely documented that athletes should consume carbohydrates prior to, during and after exercise. Ingestion of carbohydrates at these times will optimise performance and recovery. In spite of this knowledge, there is a paucity of information available to athletes concerning the types of carbohydrate foods to select. Therefore, it is suggested that the glycaemic index may be an important resource when selecting an ideal carbohydrate. The glycaemic index categories foods containing carbohydrates according to the blood glucose response that they elicit. Carbohydrate foods evoking the greatest responses are considered to be high glycaemic index foods, while those producing a relatively smaller response are categorised as low glycaemic index foods. Athletes wishing to consume carbohydrates 30 to 60 minutes before exercise should be encouraged to ingest low glycaemic index foods. Consuming these types of foods will decrease the likelihood of creating hyperglycaemia and hyperinsulinaemia at the onset of exercise, while providing exogenous carbohydrate throughout exercise. It is recommended that high glycaemic index foods be consumed during exercise. These foods will ensure rapid digestion and absorption, which will lead to elevated blood glucose levels during exercise. Post-exercise meals should consist of high glycaemic index carbohydrates. Low glycaemic foods do not induce adequate muscle glycogen resynthesis compared with high glycaemic index foods.
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Int J Sports Med 1996 Jul;17(5):373-8 Related Articles, Links


The influence of starch structure on glycogen resynthesis and subsequent cycling performance.

Jozsi AC, Trappe TA, Starling RD, Goodpaster B, Trappe SW, Fink WJ, Costill DL.

Human Performance Laboratory, Ball State University, Muncie, Indiana 47306, USA.

The present study was designed to evaluate the influence of starch structure on muscle glycogen resynthesis and cycling performance. Eight male cyclists (22 +/- 1 yr) completed an exercise protocol (DP) to decrease vastus lateralis glycogen concentration. This exercise consisted of 60 min cycling at 75% VO2max, followed by six 1-min sprints at approximately 125% VO2max with 1 min rest intervals. In the 12 hr after the exercise each subject consumed approximately 3000 kcal (65:20:15% carbohydrate, fat and protein). All of the carbohydrate (CHO) consumed was derived from one of four solutions; 1) glucose, 2) maltodextrin (glucose polymer), 3) waxy starch (100% amylopectin), or 4) resistant starch (100% amylose). Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis muscle after DP and 24 hr later to determine glycogen concentrations. A 30 min cycling time trial (TT) was performed following the 24 hr post-DP muscle biopsy to examine the influence of the feeding regimen on total work output. The post-DP glycogen concentrations were similar among the four trials, ranging from 220.3 +/- 29.2 to 264 +/- 48.3 mmol.kg-1 dry weight (d.w.) muscle. Twenty-four hours after DP, muscle glycogen concentration had increased less (p < 0.05) in the resistant starch trial (+90.8 +/- 12.8 mmol.kg-1 d.w.) than in the glucose (+197.7 +/- 31.6 mmol.kg-1 d.w.), maltodextrin (+136.7 +/- 24.5 mmol.kg-1 d.w.) and waxy starch (+171.8 +/- 37.1 mmol.kg-1 d.w.) trials. There were no differences in total work output during the TT, or blood lactate concentration immediately following the TT in any of the CHO trials. In summary, glycogen resynthesis was attenuated following ingestion of starch with a high amylose content, relative to amylopectin or glucose; however, short duration time trial performance was unaffected.

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Aust J Sci Med Sport 1997 Mar;29(1):3-10 Related Articles, Links


Nutrition for post-exercise recovery.

Burke LM.

Australian Institute of Sport, ACT, Australia.

Recovery after exercise poses an important challenge to the modern athlete. Important issues include restoration of liver and muscle glycogen stores, and the replacement of fluid and electrolytes lost in sweat. Rapid resynthesis of muscle glycogen stores is aided by the immediate intake of carbohydrate (I g.kg-1 BM each 2 hours), particularly of high glycemic index carbohydrate foods, leading to a total intake over 24 hours of 7-10 g.kg-1 BM. Provided adequate carbohydrate is consumed it appears that the frequency of intake, the form (liquid versus solid) and the presence of other macronutrients does not affect the rate of glycogen storage. Practical considerations, such as the availability and appetite appeal of foods or drinks, and gastrointestinal comfort may determine ideal carbohydrate choices and intake patterns. Rehydration requires a special fluid intake plan since thirst and voluntary intake will not provide for full restoration of sweat losses in the acute phase (0-6 hr) of recovery. Steps should be taken to ensure that a supply of palatable drinks is available after exercise. Sweetened drinks are generally preferred and can contribute towards achieving carbohydrate intake goals. Replacement of sodium lost in sweat is important in maximising the retention of ingested fluids. A sodium content of 50-90 mmol.L-1 may be necessary for optimal rehydration; however commercial sports drinks are formulated with a more moderate sodium content (10-25 mmol.L-1). It may be necessary to consume 150% of fluid losses to allow for complete fluid restoration. Caffeine and alcohol containing beverages are not ideal rehydration fluids since they promote an increased rate of diuresis.
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Int J Sports Med 1998 Jun;19 Suppl 2:S142-5 Related Articles, Links


Glycogen resynthesis after exercise: effect of carbohydrate intake.

Ivy JL.

Department of Kinesiology, University of Texas, Austin 78712, USA. [email protected]

To maximize glycogen resynthesis after exercise, a carbohydrate supplement in excess of 1.0 g x kg(-1) body wt should be consumed immediately after competition or a training bout. Continuation of supplementation every two hours will maintain a rapid rate of storage up to six hours post exercise. Supplements composed of glucose or glucose polymers are the most effective for replenishment of muscle glycogen, whereas fructose is most beneficial for the replenishment of liver glycogen. The addition of protein to a carbohydrate supplement may also increase the rate of glycogen storage due to the ability of protein and carbohydrate to act synergistically on insulin secretion.

PMID: 9694422 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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Now there are quite a few others but I'll stop there for now. Now I'm not arguing that a diet that consist of mainly low GI foods is not benificial in reduce overall fat storage but I can't say I'm in away convinced that a low GI post workout drink is as effective as a high GI one.

Sorry to bring this up again but I just want to make sure I'm getting the most out of my post WO drink and I'm not sure that low GI is the way to go. Please, let me know if I'm missing something here.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Bobo's gonna hate me for this but, after reading and debating the Hi vs Low GI post WO drink I decided to do some investigation of my own and I'm now more confused than ever. After reading the two studies produced by Bobo in another thread they where "The effects of simple-carbohydrate (CHO)- and complex-CHO-rich diets on skeletal muscle glycogen content were compared" and "The effect of free glutamine and peptide ingestion on the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis in man.". However after closer investigation I realize these may have been misinterrepted.

First, in the study of complex vs simple CHO, this study was conducted over a 3 day time where no resistance training was involved and glycogen depletion was only achieved from a previous 3 day low carb diet. Now this may speak in terms of types of CHO to use in ones regular diet but I don't think this is a good claim to a low GI post workout drink.

Second, in the study of glycogen resysnthesis, it was claimed that resysnthesis was the same in the whey/wheat group as the glucose/glutamine group, but what I think may have been overlooked was that they ALL consumed the same amount of glucose with their respective drinks and now GI level is given. To me this only proves that the addition of protein to a post workout shake has no effect on glycogen resysnthesis.

The study that compared diets compared full depletion vs. non-depleted. The non-depleted didn't really say anything but the fully depleted athletes showed their was no differend. Whether mnuscle glycogen is depleted one way or the other doesn't really matter. The point is to fill mucsle glycogen to faciliate muscle growth. Its howed there was no difference.


As for the second study the addition of wheat/whey lowers the GI. The GI of a glucose/glutamine drink wasn't any signinficant that a glucose/whey/wheat mixture. In other words, the lower GI drink did as well.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

To me this only proves that the addition of protein to a post workout shake has no effect on glycogen resysnthesis.

Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise.

Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis BB 3rd, Ivy JL.

Department of Kinesiology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Carbohydrate, protein, and carbohydrate-protein supplements were compared to determine their effects on muscle glycogen storage during recovery from prolonged exhaustive exercise. Nine male subjects cycled for 2 h on three separate occasions to deplete their muscle glycogen stores. Immediately and 2 h after each exercise bout, they ingested 112.0 g carbohydrate (CHO), 40.7 g protein (PRO), or 112.0 g carbohydrate and 40.7 g protein (CHO-PRO). Blood samples were drawn before exercise, immediately after exercise, and throughout recovery. Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis immediately and 4 h after exercise. During recovery the plasma glucose response of the CHO treatment was significantly greater than that of the CHO-PRO treatment, but the plasma insulin response of the CHO-PRO treatment was significantly greater than that of the CHO treatment. Both the CHO and CHO-PRO treatments produced plasma glucose and insulin responses that were greater than those produced by the PRO treatment (P less than 0.05). The rate of muscle glycogen storage during the CHO-PRO treatment [35.5 +/- 3.3 (SE) mumol.g protein-1.h-1] was significantly faster than during the CHO treatment (25.6 +/- 2.3 mumol.g protein-1.h-1), which was significantly faster than during the PRO treatment (7.6 +/- 1.4 mumol.g protein-1.h-1). The results suggest that postexercise muscle glycogen storage can be enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement as a result of the interaction of carbohydrate and protein on insulin secretion

 

[Biggs]

dammit bobo, ya low gi carbin' s.o.b... you may have me rethinking my **** here... still researchin', will throw more studies up when I find some good ones, but I like the overall concept (preworkout low gi carbs to help facilitate non requirement of post w/o spike, etc)

 

[Dwight Schrute]

dammit bobo, ya low gi carbin' s.o.b... you may have me rethinking my **** here... still researchin', will throw more studies up when I find some good ones, but I like the overall concept (preworkout low gi carbs to help facilitate non requirement of post w/o spike, etc)

I never said High GI doesn't work. I just stated that this can be acheived with the combination of a carb/protein mixture. This has been showed to increase the insulin response. With the study comparingdiets on fully depleted athletes and this showing that the resynthesis wasn't any different, I conclude that a low-mod (oatmeal) in combination with a protein source is significant enough to promote muscle growth without the excess glucose you will get with a high amount of High GI carbs. This in essence is my THEORY and using it in real life has proven very beneficial.

 

[Draven]

Re: Re: Low GI Post workout drink, really???

As for the second study the addition of wheat/whey lowers the GI. The GI of a glucose/glutamine drink wasn't any signinficant that a glucose/whey/wheat mixture. In other words, the lower GI drink did as well.

well according to the American Diabetes Association ""Adding protein does not slow the rate of absorption," she [Marion Franz] stated, and protein also does not prevent late hypoglycemia, so that this common recommendation is no longer accepted. -- 2002 American Diabetes Association Annual Meeting, 14-18 June 2002.". Therefore the wheat/whey does not lower the overall GI.

Also "We used to think that the protein would help slow down the carb absorption, but it is more likely the fat content (that often goes along with most proteins from animal sources) that slows the absorption of the other food nutrients. Also, the more fat contained with the proteins, the slower the whole digestion process. " http://www.childrenwithdiabetes.com/dteam/2001-02/d_0d_69f.htm

I'm sure if we looked hard we could probably find studies to back this. You see now why I am not totaly convinced.

 

[Draven]

Re: Re: Low GI Post workout drink, really???

Carbohydrate-protein complex increases the rate of muscle glycogen storage after exercise.

Zawadzki KM, Yaspelkis BB 3rd, Ivy JL.

Department of Kinesiology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Carbohydrate, protein, and carbohydrate-protein supplements were compared to determine their effects on muscle glycogen storage during recovery from prolonged exhaustive exercise. Nine male subjects cycled for 2 h on three separate occasions to deplete their muscle glycogen stores. Immediately and 2 h after each exercise bout, they ingested 112.0 g carbohydrate (CHO), 40.7 g protein (PRO), or 112.0 g carbohydrate and 40.7 g protein (CHO-PRO). Blood samples were drawn before exercise, immediately after exercise, and throughout recovery. Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis immediately and 4 h after exercise. During recovery the plasma glucose response of the CHO treatment was significantly greater than that of the CHO-PRO treatment, but the plasma insulin response of the CHO-PRO treatment was significantly greater than that of the CHO treatment. Both the CHO and CHO-PRO treatments produced plasma glucose and insulin responses that were greater than those produced by the PRO treatment (P less than 0.05). The rate of muscle glycogen storage during the CHO-PRO treatment [35.5 +/- 3.3 (SE) mumol.g protein-1.h-1] was significantly faster than during the CHO treatment (25.6 +/- 2.3 mumol.g protein-1.h-1), which was significantly faster than during the PRO treatment (7.6 +/- 1.4 mumol.g protein-1.h-1). The results suggest that postexercise muscle glycogen storage can be enhanced with a carbohydrate-protein supplement as a result of the interaction of carbohydrate and protein on insulin secretion

Hmm this says otherwise though:


Muscle glycogen recovery after exercise measured by 13C-magnetic resonance spectroscopy in humans: effect of nutritional solutions.

Rotman S, Slotboom J, Kreis R, Boesch C, Jequier E.

Department of Life Sciences, Nestle Research Center, Lausanne, Switzerland.

The rate of glycogen resynthesis in human skeletal muscle after glycogen-depleting exercise is known to depend on carbohydrate intake and is reported to reach a plateau after an adequate amount of carbohydrate (CHO) consumption. Efforts to maximize the rate of glycogen storage by changing the type and form of CHO, as well as by adding proteins or lipids have yielded inconsistent results. The objective of this study was to assess whether isocaloric addition of proteins and arginine to a CHO diet in the first 4 h after an endurance exercise would increase the rate of glycogen synthesis. The CHO solution, given twice at a 2 h interval according to earlier optimized protocols, contained 1.7 g CHO/kg(body weieght) The effects of this solution were compared to those of an isocaloric solution containing 1.2 g CHO/kg(body weight) plus 0.5 g protein/kg(body weight) (including 5 g arginine). Glycogen was measured in quadriceps muscle in vivo with natural abundance 13C-magnetic resonance spectroscopy before exercise and twice after exercise, before and at the end of a 4-h period following the intake of one of the solutions. Eight subjects took part in a randomized cross-over trial separated by at least 1 week. Glycogen synthesis was found to be significantly increased with both regimes compared to a zero-caloric placebo diet, but no significant difference in glycogen resynthesis was found between the CHO-only diet and the one supplemented by proteins and arginine. It is estimated that significance would have been reached for an increase of 34%, while the effectively measured synthesis rates only differed by 5%.

 

[Draven]

Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise.

Roy BD, Tarnopolsky MA.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 4K1.

The provision of additional protein (Pro) to a carbohydrate (CHO) supplement resulted in an enhanced rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis after endurance exercise (Zawadzki et al., J. Appl. Physiol. 72: 1854-1859, 1992). A comparison of isoenergetic CHO and CHO/Pro formula drinks on muscle glycogen resynthesis has not been examined after either endurance or resistance exercise. We studied the effect of isoenergetic CHO (1 g/kg) and CHO/Pro/fat (66% CHO, 23% Pro, 11% fat) defined formula drinks and placebo (Pl) given immediately (t = 0 h) and 1 h (t = +1 h) after resistance exercise in 10 healthy young men. They performed a whole body workout (9 exercises/3 sets at 80% 1 repetition maximum) with unilateral knee extension exercise [exercise (Ex) and control (Con) leg]. The CHO/Pro/fat and CHO trials resulted in significantly greater (P < 0. 05) plasma insulin and glucose concentration compared with Pl. Muscle glycogen was significantly lower (P < 0.05) for the Ex vs. Con leg immediately postexercise for all three conditions. The rate of glycogen resynthesis was significantly greater (P < 0.05) for both CHO/Pro/fat and CHO (23.0 +/- 4.5 and 19.3 +/- 6.1 mmol . kg dry muscle-1 . h-1, respectively) vs. Pl (Ex = 2.8 +/- 2.3 and Con = 1.4 +/- 3.6 mmol . kg dry muscle-1 . h-1). These results demonstrated that a bout of resistance exercise resulted in a significant decrease in muscle glycogen and that consumption of an isoenergetic CHO or CHO/Pro/fat formula drink resulted in similar rates of muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise. This suggests that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle glycogen.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 9480948 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[Biggs]

I never said High GI doesn't work. I just stated that this can be acheived with the combination of a carb/protein mixture.

yeh I know, wasn't implying you said it didn't work, but if I can achieve the same results without pounding fast acting sugar and keep my diet even keel throughout the day, that would be more optimal

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Re: Re: Re: Low GI Post workout drink, really???

Hmm this says otherwise though:


Muscle glycogen recovery after exercise measured by 13C-magnetic resonance spectroscopy in humans: effect of nutritional solutions.

Rotman S, Slotboom J, Kreis R, Boesch C, Jequier E.

Department of Life Sciences, Nestle Research Center, Lausanne, Switzerland.

The rate of glycogen resynthesis in human skeletal muscle after glycogen-depleting exercise is known to depend on carbohydrate intake and is reported to reach a plateau after an adequate amount of carbohydrate (CHO) consumption. Efforts to maximize the rate of glycogen storage by changing the type and form of CHO, as well as by adding proteins or lipids have yielded inconsistent results. The objective of this study was to assess whether isocaloric addition of proteins and arginine to a CHO diet in the first 4 h after an endurance exercise would increase the rate of glycogen synthesis. The CHO solution, given twice at a 2 h interval according to earlier optimized protocols, contained 1.7 g CHO/kg(body weieght) The effects of this solution were compared to those of an isocaloric solution containing 1.2 g CHO/kg(body weight) plus 0.5 g protein/kg(body weight) (including 5 g arginine). Glycogen was measured in quadriceps muscle in vivo with natural abundance 13C-magnetic resonance spectroscopy before exercise and twice after exercise, before and at the end of a 4-h period following the intake of one of the solutions. Eight subjects took part in a randomized cross-over trial separated by at least 1 week. Glycogen synthesis was found to be significantly increased with both regimes compared to a zero-caloric placebo diet, but no significant difference in glycogen resynthesis was found between the CHO-only diet and the one supplemented by proteins and arginine. It is estimated that significance would have been reached for an increase of 34%, while the effectively measured synthesis rates only differed by 5%.

Well the carb mixture was 1.7g/kg. Thats an awful lot. I dont think anyone realistically takes that much. Also the study I posted stated that muscle glycogen storage is enhanced, not glycogen resythesis. Glycogen synbthesis will happen with any carbohydrate but the muscle gycogen storage is increased adding a protein.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Influence of differing macronutrient intakes on muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise.

Roy BD, Tarnopolsky MA.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario, Canada L8S 4K1.

The provision of additional protein (Pro) to a carbohydrate (CHO) supplement resulted in an enhanced rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis after endurance exercise (Zawadzki et al., J. Appl. Physiol. 72: 1854-1859, 1992). A comparison of isoenergetic CHO and CHO/Pro formula drinks on muscle glycogen resynthesis has not been examined after either endurance or resistance exercise. We studied the effect of isoenergetic CHO (1 g/kg) and CHO/Pro/fat (66% CHO, 23% Pro, 11% fat) defined formula drinks and placebo (Pl) given immediately (t = 0 h) and 1 h (t = +1 h) after resistance exercise in 10 healthy young men. They performed a whole body workout (9 exercises/3 sets at 80% 1 repetition maximum) with unilateral knee extension exercise [exercise (Ex) and control (Con) leg]. The CHO/Pro/fat and CHO trials resulted in significantly greater (P < 0. 05) plasma insulin and glucose concentration compared with Pl. Muscle glycogen was significantly lower (P < 0.05) for the Ex vs. Con leg immediately postexercise for all three conditions. The rate of glycogen resynthesis was significantly greater (P < 0.05) for both CHO/Pro/fat and CHO (23.0 +/- 4.5 and 19.3 +/- 6.1 mmol . kg dry muscle-1 . h-1, respectively) vs. Pl (Ex = 2.8 +/- 2.3 and Con = 1.4 +/- 3.6 mmol . kg dry muscle-1 . h-1). These results demonstrated that a bout of resistance exercise resulted in a significant decrease in muscle glycogen and that consumption of an isoenergetic CHO or CHO/Pro/fat formula drink resulted in similar rates of muscle glycogen resynthesis after resistance exercise. This suggests that total energy content and CHO content are important in the resynthesis of muscle glycogen.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial

PMID: 9480948 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

This just tells us about synthesis again not enhanced muscle glycogen storage. I admit, it is confusing!

 

[Draven]

This just tells us about synthesis again not enhanced muscle glycogen storage. I admit, it is confusing!

Yeah no kidding. So is the end goal glycogen resynthesis or enhanced glycogen storage?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Yeah no kidding. So is the end goal glycogen resynthesis or enhanced glycogen storage?

Well I think both would be ideal but there are many studies conflicting each other. Overrall if you have enhanced storage it could only be positive. I'm still trying to find studies on the checmical reaction that causes the combination of protein/carb to trigger a greater insulin release. This would be the nail in the coffin proving thats its just the carb itself no matter the GI combined with a protein that will cause a significant insulin spike. In theory, it should be the otherway around since yuor lowering the GI with the introduction of a protein in the mix.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Yeah no kidding. So is the end goal glycogen resynthesis or enhanced glycogen storage?

Good Job in finding those studies though. I see where your thinking is taking you and by no means are you wrong. What I'm saying not absolutely right, but from what I've read the conclusions can point in that direction and with using this in the real world I found it beneficial along with some others that have tried.

 

[bachovas]

Bobo, you and JB use oatmeal right? How do you cook it? just water and rolled oats? No milk, right?

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Bobo, you and JB use oatmeal right? How do you cook it? just water and rolled oats? No milk, right?

Uncooked rolled oats. I grind them up with a coffee grinder into a powder for my shakes. No milk.

 

[John Benz]

Bobo, you and JB use oatmeal right? How do you cook it? just water and rolled oats? No milk, right?

I don't believe raw oats are anywhere near as good for you, no matter how fine you grind them. Thus I cook up about a week's worth of old fashioned rolled oats and put 1 1/2 cup each in 6-7 tupperware bowls, cover with Saran wrap and refrigerate. I just dump one of these into a blender with 20 oz water and 50 gmns protein for my shake.

P.S. Look up all the studies you want Draven. If you try this for a month you will never look back

 

[bachovas]

Originally posted by John Benz

I don't believe raw oats are anywhere near as good for you, no matter how fine you grind them...

Wow, wait, you mean post-workout, right?

 

[sage]

I don't believe raw oats are anywhere near as good for you, no matter how fine you grind them.

ive been basically chewing the "grinded not too fine" oatmeal in my shake. JB, raw oats vs cooke oatmeal...is it a simply a question of digestion and and absorption or is it a fact (reseach shown) that prepared oatmeal keeps and has more nutrients than the straigh raw? Sage

 

[Draven]

P.S. Look up all the studies you want Draven. If you try this for a month you will never look back

Hehe, well I still may. I just want to understand all the facts, you know? I hate to do things just cause someone else says to. No offence, I don't think you guys are misleading or anything, just curious of the science behind it. As Bobo said there's alot of conflicting data out there.

 

[RippedUp]

I didn't read the whole thread, but I just wanted to add this;

High-GI carbs might be definitely better at restoring glycogen stores quickly. No doubt about that.

One of the main points of eating low-GI post-WO is a long-term issue. Imagine how efficient your body would become at processing carbs and using them as an immediate source of energy if your main source of carbs were slow digesting and low GI. (talking about the whole insulin sensitivity issue)

Apart from theory, that's what I have been doing for about 9 months. In the last 3-4, I have gained about 20+lbs of weight, and my abs are still popping out. On top of that, I have never felt as good and energetic. (never used PHs, AAS, pro-steroids etc. either)

The human body works much more optimally when fed with wholesome, clean, unprocessed foods.

Also, unless you're on a keto diet, your liver & muscles would hardly get completely depleted of glycogen, so no big worries there.

 

[Draven]

One of the main points of eating low-GI post-WO is a long-term issue. Imagine how efficient your body would become at processing carbs and using them as an immediate source of energy if your main source of carbs were slow digesting and low GI. (talking about the whole insulin sensitivity issue)

It's funny you mention this, I was pondering this exact thought last night. It would make sense that a low GI diet would increase insulin sensitivity like a zero carb diet does when on a keto.

Good point. Is there any data out there to support this? I mean insulin sensitivity from a low GI diet. It makes sense.

 

[Biggs]

I certainly believe at this point that both methods (high GI post workout vs low GI all day) will work, but there are good points about long term considerance here...is there enough of a difference in the long run to prefer one over the other if they are both effective?

 

[bachovas]

Originally posted by RippedUp
...The human body works much more optimally when fed with wholesome, clean, unprocessed foods...

Are you having cooked oatmeal too? What other source of low GI carbs could we use?

 

[RippedUp]

My only sources of carbs that I eat all year long come from;

- oatmeal
- very little Shredded Wheat (a few squares sprinkled on my post-WO oatmeal and second meal)
- lactose (from milk - very little when cutting)
- vegetables

Post-WO, I've been eating,

- 30g+ of protein from chicken/turkey
- 20g+ from a good blend
- cooked oatmeal (quantity depends on my goals)

That's it.

 

[inertia]

My only sources of carbs that I eat all year long come from;

- oatmeal
- very little Shredded Wheat (a few squares sprinkled on my post-WO oatmeal and second meal)
- lactose (from milk - very little when cutting)
- vegetables

Post-WO, I've been eating,

- 30g+ of protein from chicken/turkey
- 20g+ from a good blend
- cooked oatmeal (quantity depends on my goals)

That's it.

so you dont believe in a dextrose/malto post workout or fruits? just curious.

 

[Nelson]

Just to clarify

My only sources of carbs that I eat all year long come from;

- oatmeal
- very little Shredded Wheat (a few squares sprinkled on my post-WO oatmeal and second meal)
- lactose (from milk - very little when cutting)
- vegetables

Post-WO, I've been eating,

- 30g+ of protein from chicken/turkey
- 20g+ from a good blend
- cooked oatmeal (quantity depends on my goals)

That's it.

RippedUp - Do you eat all of the above Post-WO foods immediately following training, or in two separate sittings?
You guys have got me thinking about making some changes.

 

[RippedUp]

Nelson,

I eat:

- 30g+ of protein from chicken/turkey
- 20g+ from a good blend
- cooked oatmeal (quantity depends on my goals)

immediately after I get home from the gym.

Then the same meal 2 hours later.

 

[Nelson]

Thanks RippedUp

Cheers bro.
I`m cutting now.
Post w/o is 35g protein + 50g dextrose.
Followed by salad & salmon an hour later.

I would like to try out the low-gi carbs.
Would I just change the 50g dextrose to 50g of carbs in the form of oatmeal?
I feel stupid asking this, but would I still add creatine to the post-w/o whey/oatmeal mix?
Thanks for your help in advance

 

[RippedUp]

Yes, no problem with that. Oatmeal is about 66% carbs.
Add the creatine to the shake, or drink it with water. It doesn't matter.

Stay well hydrated all the time. Strive for 3+ litres of water during the 2 hours bracketting your workout.

 

[Nelson]

One last ?

Just as a matter of curiosity.
How long after you have finished training do you have your first meal?

 

[RippedUp]

I'd be eating my first bite of chicken/turkey about 15-20 mins after my last set.

 

[bachovas]

Ripped, only cooked? with water right? what about dry oats? Is it just a matter of digestion or something else, the diference between dry and cooked oats?

 

[RippedUp]

I cook my oats the night before, let them cool, then store them in the fridge.

When comes the time to eat, I mix some pro. powder in them and it's all set. Much more refreshing than eating them hot/warm.

Cooking them fills them out with water. I don't know exactly how/if this influences the GI.

 

[Biggs]

yo... regarding cooking vs raw oats and GI, it seems that effects on insulin/glucose response don't differ all that much between the two...(see bold areas below):
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Metabolic responses to starch in oat and wheat products. On the importance of food structure, incomplete gelatinization or presence of viscous dietary fibre.

Granfeldt Y, Hagander B, Bjorck I.

Department of Applied Nutrition and Food Chemistry, University of Lund, Sweden.

OBJECTIVE: Evaluate the importance of incomplete gelatinization, food structure and presence of viscous dietary fibre for the postprandial glycaemic and insulinaemic responses to oat and wheat products. DESIGN: Three common breakfast meals were tested, 'raw' rolled oats (muesli), boiled rolled oats (oat porridge) and white wheat bread. Boiled intact oat and wheat kernels (kernel porridges) were also included. For comparison, glycaemic indices (GIs) were calculated both from analysis of capillary and venous blood samples. SETTING: The study was performed at the research laboratory, Dalby Health Sciences Centre (primary care). SUBJECTS: Nine healthy male volunteers between 65 and 70 years of age participated in the study. RESULTS: The rolled oats and oat porridge elicited high metabolic responses. No differences in the glycaemic and insulinaemic indices (IIs) were seen between these products and white wheat bread. In contrast, the kernel porridges produced low glucose and insulin responses. No differences were obtained in GI values whether based on capillary or venous blood. However, with some products capillary blood allowed smaller differences to be detected. CONCLUSIONS: Neither incomplete gelatinization in rolled oats nor naturally occurring viscous dietary fibre in oats affect postprandial glycaemia, whereas enclosure of intact kernels significantly blunt metabolic responses.
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Postprandial glucose and insulin responses to rolled oats ingested raw, cooked or as a mixture with raisins in normal subjects and type 2 diabetic patients.

Rasmussen O, Winther E, Hermansen K.

Second University Clinic of Internal Medicine, Aarhus Kommune-hospital, Denmark.

Cooking and processing of food may account for differences in blood glucose and insulin responses to food with similar contents of carbohydrate, fat, and protein. The present study was carried out to see if short-term cooking of rolled oats caused an increase in blood glucose. Furthermore, we wanted to see if dried fruit could substitute for some of the starch without deterioration of the postprandial blood glucose response. We therefore compared the blood glucose and insulin responses to three isocaloric, carbohydrate equivalent meals in 11 normal subjects and 9 Type 2 diabetic patients. Meals composed either of raw rolled oats, oatmeal porridge or a mixture of raw rolled oats with raisins were served. In normal subjects, the three meals produced similar glucose (75 +/- 22, 51 +/- 16 and 71 +/- 23 (+/- SE) mmol l-1 180 min, respectively) and insulin response curves (3160 +/- 507, 2985 +/- 632 and 2775 +/- 398 mU l-1 180 min, respectively). Type 2 diabetic patients also showed similar postprandial blood glucose (515 +/- 95, 531 +/- 83 and 409 +/- 46 mmol l-1 180 min, respectively) and insulin (5121 +/- 850, 6434 +/- 927 and 6021 +/- 974 mU l-1 180 min, respectively) responses to the three meals. Thus short-term cooking of rolled oats has no deleterious effect on blood glucose and insulin responses, and substitution of 25% of the starch meal with simple sugars (raisins) did not affect the blood glucose or insulin responses.
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what do you think?

 

[NPursuit]

Originally posted by RippedUp
Yes, no problem with that. Oatmeal is about 66% carbs.
Add the creatine to the shake, or drink it with water. It doesn't matter.

Ripped up do you or could you grind up the oatmeal before cooking it to add to a shake?  Not sure I want to ingest whole oats?

 

BTW great thread guys got me changing my strategy.  I'm getting ready to hit my cutting cycle, and would like to toss out the malto.

 

[RippedUp]

N'Pursuit

There's no point of grinding the oats before cooking since they will get soft and easy to eat.

Use a blender if you want to put them in a shake..

A blender should be a bber's best friend

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by RippedUp
Yes, no problem with that. Oatmeal is about 66% carbs.
Add the creatine to the shake, or drink it with water. It doesn't matter.

Ripped up do you or could you grind up the oatmeal before cooking it to add to a shake?&nbsp; Not sure I want to ingest whole oats?

&nbsp;

BTW great thread guys got me changing my strategy.&nbsp; I'm getting ready to hit my cutting cycle, and would like to toss out the malto.

I grind mine up with a coffee grider. Makes 2 cups of wholes look like a 1/2 a cup


I find it easier to mix when I grind it up into a powder but thats my personal preference.

 

[NPursuit]

I think I will try both ways guys. Thanks!

Do you think 2 cups is a good serving per shake? Keep in mind I'm cutting but my BMR is around 2950.

 

[RippedUp]

There is no magic quantity number.

Figure out how much carbs you want to eat per day, and spread them between morning and around WO time.

100g of oatmeal have around 67g of carbs.

 

[Draven]

N'Pursuit, 2 cups????? How the heck would you get that much to dissolve in a shake? Wouldn't that make it like mud?

How do you guys find the texture and taste putting oats in a shake?

 

[NPursuit]

Draven just going by Bobo's statement. Sounded a little much, but I've never thrown oats in my shakes. I've always been pretty simple with my shakes. Whey or blend, malto, glutamine.

 

[Timbo]

Try this out for your post-workout meal:

Fat-Free Cottage Cheese
Protein Powder
Oats
Banana

*Quantities vary accordingly. Freeze this for about an hour and it's like cheesecake.

Okay, now onto business.

Draven said:

It would make sense that a low GI diet would increase insulin sensitivity like a zero carb diet does when on a keto.

A low GI diet may very well enhance insulin sensitivity. But a ketogenic diet? Not hardly. Ask anyone of the guys around here how their glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity is coming off keto. Anything but sensitive.

Draven said:

To me this only proves that the addition of protein to a post workout shake has no effect on glycogen resysnthesis.

Like Bobo already directed us, this is a flawed statement. The Ivy study is basically the standard. Here's another one from the group to add to it:

**********************************
J Strength Cond Res 2003 Feb;17(1):12-9


Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance.

Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL.

Cardiovascular Research Institute, University of North Texas, Health Science Center at Fort Worth, Texas 76107, USA. [email protected]

The restorative capacities of a high carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO) beverage containing electrolytes and a traditional 6% carbohydrate-electrolyte sports beverage (SB) were assessed after glycogen-depleting exercise. Postexercise ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage, in comparison with the SB, resulted in a 55% greater time to exhaustion during a subsequent exercise bout at 85% maximum oxygen consumption (VO(2)max). The greater recovery after the intake of the CHO-PRO beverage could be because of a greater rate of muscle glycogen storage. Therefore, a second study was designed to investigate the effects of after exercise CHO-PRO and SB supplements on muscle glycogen restoration. Eight endurance-trained cyclists (VO(2)max = 62.1 +/- 2.2 ml.kg(-1) body wt.min(-1)) performed 2 trials consisting of a 2-hour glycogen-depletion ride at 65-75% VO(2)max. Carbohydrate-protein (355 ml; approximately 0.8 g carbohydrate (CHO).kg(-1) body wt and approximately 0.2 g protein.kg(-1) body wt) or SB (355 ml; approximately 0.3 g CHO.kg(-1) body wt) was provided immediately and 2 hours after exercise. Trials were randomized and separated by 7-15 days. Ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage resulted in a 17% greater plasma glucose response, a 92% greater insulin response, and a 128% greater storage of muscle glycogen (159 +/- 18 and 69 +/- 32 micromol.g(-1) dry weight for CHO-PRO and SB, respectively) compared with the SB (p < 0.05). These findings indicate that the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggest that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement.

****************************

Here's another for the fun of it:

Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11


Maximizing postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures.

van Loon LJ, Saris WH, Kruijshoop M, Wagenmakers AJ.

From the Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands. [email protected]

BACKGROUND: Postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis is an important factor in determining the time needed to recover from prolonged exercise. OBJECTIVE: This study investigated whether an increase in carbohydrate intake, ingestion of a mixture of protein hydrolysate and amino acids in combination with carbohydrate, or both results in higher postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis rates than does ingestion of 0.8 g*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) carbohydrate, provided at 30-min intervals. DESIGN: Eight trained cyclists visited the laboratory 3 times, during which a control beverage and 2 other beverages were tested. After the subjects participated in a strict glycogen-depletion protocol, muscle biopsy samples were collected. The subjects received a beverage every 30 min to ensure ingestion of 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (Carb trial), 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) plus 0.4 g wheat protein hydrolysate plus free leucine and phenylalanine*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (proven to be highly insulinotropic; Carb + Pro trial), or 1.2 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (Carb + Carb trial). After 5 h, a second biopsy was taken. RESULTS: Plasma insulin responses in the Carb + Pro and Carb + Carb trials were higher than those in the Carb trial (88 +/- 17% and 46 +/- 18%; P < 0.05). Muscle glycogen synthesis was higher in both trials than in the Carb trial (35. 4 +/- 5.1 and 44.8 +/- 6.8 compared with 16.6 +/- 7.8 micromol glycosol units*g dry wt(-)(1)*h(-)(1), respectively; P < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Addition of a mixture of protein hydrolysate and amino acids to a carbohydrate-containing solution (at an intake of 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1)) can stimulate glycogen synthesis. However, glycogen synthesis can also be accelerated by increasing carbohydrate intake (0.4 g*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1)) when supplements are provided at 30-min intervals.
**************************

Admittedly, I find this topic very interesting. I'm experimenting with that approach that seems to be highly advised and acceptable here. I know John Berardi is working on some data on recovery parameters with Surge.

When the issue of insulin sensitivity comes up, I really don't think you should be concerned when ingesting the high GI carbs. As an active individual, following an acute bout of resistance and/or aerobic training, you have a heightened state of insulin sensitivity.

 

[Draven]

A low GI diet may very well enhance insulin sensitivity. But a ketogenic diet? Not hardly. Ask anyone of the guys around here how their glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity is coming off keto. Anything but sensitive.

Hmm, well perhaps I'm misreading this but not according to Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., D’Alessio, D.A., et al., "Effects of a Low Carbohydrate Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors", College of Nursing and College of Medicine, University of Cincinnati.

Summary:

Popular weight loss diets, such as the low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet, are adopted by millions of Americans each year. However, rigorous, well-controlled studies of their efficacy and safety are limited. Thirty-four mildly obese women (BMI of 30-34 kg/m2) were recruited for a six-month clinical study to investigate the effects of a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet on body weight and cardiovascular risk factors. The study included a three-month weight loss intervention followed by a three-month follow-up period during which no intervention occurred. Subjects were randomly assigned to either an ad libitum low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet that restricted carbohydrate intake to less than 10% of kcal, or a control diet with modest caloric restriction (1200-1500 kcal/d) and recommended distributions of fat (30% of kcal) and carbohydrate (55% of kcal) conforming to recommendations of the American Heart Association. Twenty-six subjects (76%) completed the trial, with an equal number of dropouts from each diet group. Mean weight loss was significantly greater in the ketogenic diet group than in the control diet group at three months (8.0+1.0 vs. 4.4+1.1 kg; p<0.02) and at six months (7.9+1.4 vs. 3.2+1.3 kg; p<0.02). As measured by DEXA scans, the mean percentage body fat decreased in both groups at three months (1.7+.46 vs. 1.3+.48) and at six months (2.2+.58 vs. .74+.49). Blood pressure, total cholesterol, and LDL-cholesterol decreased, and HDL-cholesterol increased, in both groups. Plasma insulin levels decreased in both groups suggesting an improvement in insulin sensitivity. Triglyceride levels decreased significantly more in the ketogenic diet group than in the control diet group (65.3+17.2 vs. 15.2+8.2 mg/dl; p<0.02) at three months. These results indicate that for short periods of time, a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet is efficacious in causing weight loss and has no deleterious effects on cardiovascular risk factors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Now I know this only suggests the fact and doesn't absolutely confirm sensitivity but this study is what gave me that impression.

 

[Timbo]

Draven, that's a valant effort, my friend, but you've got to understand the physiology before quoting and believing something like that. I'll explain in just a second.

I, myself have never partaken in a ketogenic diet, but I guarantee that if you ask any of the other regular low-carb roamers around here, they will tell you that coming off a prolonged ketogenic diet, their insulin sensivitiy and glucose tolerance sucks.

Now, back to the matter at hand. Of course plasma insulin levels dropped, they were on a ketogenic diet for six months! During this time, they consumed no more than 10% of total calories. This abstract doesn't mention absolute calories, but it does say that caloric restriction was in the range of 1200-1500 kcals/day. Considering these are women, they're probably not dieting on more than 1000 kcals/day (though, I'd like to know for sure). Therefore, carb intake is probably roughly around 25g/day. Surprise, ketogenic diet!

With a prolonged ketogenic diet, which six-months definitely qualifies as prolonged, the body will switch into a relative fat-burning mode where insulin levels and blood glucose are always at baseline. However, before these fatties got on this type of diet (i.e. which would represent pre-testing and dieting values), they were in a state in which their blood glucose and insulin levels were like a roller coaster ride at Six Flags Themeparks. They were in a sugar-burning state.

Actually, Draven, this is an excellent study to pull up. It shows the efficacy of a low-carb diet for obese populations, diabetic populations and patients with a heightened risk for CVD. Keep this one in your pocket.

The bottom line, though, upon returning to a normal, mixed diet, one's sensitivity to insulin and tolerance to glucose will be hampered.

 

[Draven]

I wasn't really trying to dispute what you said, rather just showing you what lead me to believe that you would gain sensitivity from a keto diet.

I myself just tried a short stint on keto but am off now to start my 1-test cycle. I wasn't on long enough (3 weeks) to really say either way, senitive or insensitive.

Anyone know where I can find an upload link directly to the brain for this board?

Anyways, thanks for clearing that up Timbo.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

The most important part of that study Draven was the fact they were obese women. Given this fact they are very likey to be insulin resistant to begin with. A low carb diet will help their situation as its alreay been shown to help type II diabetics.

 

[Timbo]

That's cool, Dra. I'm glad that we could clear things up.

Just like my favorite clown mentioned, that fact that these are fatties indicates right away that their insulin sensitivity is awful.

I just wanted to add to the matter that the authors of this study are making an extremely far-fetched conclusion by relating plasma insulin levels to insulin sensitivity.

Insulin sensitivity refers to the relative amount of insulin secreted for a given load of blood glucose. That is, a person who is more sensitive to insulin will secrete less insulin for a given load of glucose, compared to another individual.

Now, if insulin levels are measured during the ketogenic diet, I guarantee that they'll be very low. But this really has nothing to do with insulin sensitivity because you're not eating any carbs!

Dra, as far as that upload link, you've got it right in front of you. All of us--including yourself--compose the brain of the board. I guarantee that not one individual on this board is more experienced, valuable or knowledgable than all the members as a whole.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I guarantee that not one individual on this board is more experienced, valuable or knowledgable than all the members as a whole.

Yes I am.



hehe just kiddin.....

 

[Timbo]

hehe just kiddin

The hell you are, you conceited bastard Just pullin' your leg, brutha. You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.

Keep up the great work, my friend