[Kruger]

Originally posted by Draven




I don't understand why you're getting so aggressive with this, all I said was that both worked and there are studies to back noth, calm down.

If both work, and one has less chance of being stored as fat, then what haven't you been swayed on?

You've admitted that both work so whats the problem?

[Draven]

I give upo Bobo, you keep coming back with something different. In my org. statement all I said was both worked. I then thought you were questioning me about studies showing different rates of glycogen replenishment, that's all. My response had only to do with that statement, not where this thread is currently at (Especially since I haven't reread this thread in a long time so I don't even remeber where we left off). I never said I suggested High GI or low, I only said both worked and wasn't personally swayed to one side or another. I already admitted low GI has less chance of spillage and we all know that insulin supresses Cortisol, hence my statement about being anti-catabolic. As far as I'm concerned it really comes down to personal choice. I think having oats in my shake tastes like ****, so I don't do that. Ilike the malto better. Plain and simple.

[Draven]

Originally posted by Bobo


If both work, and one has less chance of being stored as fat, then what haven't you been swayed on?

You've admitted that both work so whats the problem?

Haha, I think we both got a little confused about what was trying to be said.

We're on the same page, just I read upside down.

[Kruger]

Well you brought up taste and I can't find a study to support my arguement there

[John Benz]

[

Originally posted by chi_town
I think this really is more complicated than some here have led us to believe. The PW shake does many things as we all know. Which thing is more important........I';m not sure.....but IMO increasing glycogen synthisis, glycogen storage....as well as generally getting the body QUICKLY out of the catabolic state it is from training must surely be what is optimal

The body will not be all that catabolic if you have ingested a low gi carb/protein PRE-workout meal. This meal is probably even more important than the post-workout meal, as it supplies increased energy and stamina for a grueling workout, as well as releasing a steady flow of amino acids, keeping the body anabolic throughout the workout, and greatly diminishing the need for a huge and immediate insulin response afterwards. The key to continuous muscle growth is to keep the body anabolic throughout the day by maintaining a constant positive nitrogen balance. Too much emphasis is placed on post-workout nutrition, and not enough on keeping the body anabolic all day long!

[chi_town]

JB,

I was referring to post.........not pre.

Too much emphasis is placed on post-workout nutrition, and not enough on keeping the body anabolic all day long!

I agree for the most part.


But when you look stricly at getting out of a catabolic state.......that is another issue.

You do not have to be anabolic immediately post Wo....sure it would be nice......but the way I understand it is that the real anabolic reactionary boost actually comes many hours later.....via HGH, IGF1 (both local and as a result of HGH production)

So being anabolic immediately after your WO......sounds nice.....and I guess the process of becomming and shifting to the anabolic state begins post WO......but to me the immediate need is to stop the state that can lend itself to sacrificing the most muscle. Blood glucose levels as well as glycogen levels are what I deam as most important Post WO.


Ilike oats and oatmeal, I just feel that that would be better to wait until the next meal......as a slight insulin spike is what is in order post WO.being that the rise in glucose levels and coresponding insulin release will aid in getting out of the catabolic state the fastest.


PEACE

[Kruger]

I also think the whole "catabolic" state is way overblown. You are not that catabolic post workout. The glycogen loss is not close to what people think. Remember ANY insulin repsonse will elleviate this. THe response from oatmeal is greater than normal since post exercise you are insulin sensitive anyway.

Basically once you consume anything thart has some sort of carb/protein mix, the mild catabolic state is gone.

[chi_town]

Originally posted by Bobo
You are not that catabolic post workout. The glycogen loss is not close to what people think. Remember ANY insulin repsonse will elleviate this. THe response from oatmeal is greater than normal since post exercise you are insulin sensitive anyway.

I would agree about the catabolic state.......somewhat......but only if not cutting or on a keto diet.


Maybe it's just my keto type of thinking that keeps me from seeing this. I guess I see the argument for using both types of carbs Post WO other times. Maybe some time I'll try 15 grams Dextrose, with about 15 g of carbs from some oats or oatmeal together with my protein PW.

Of course........this I would first try this only if not cutting on keto .

[_AJ]

I agree with the post oatmeal shake as I feel a lot better and have not noticed any difference in recovery. I am currently cutting, I have read different numbers as to how much PRO and CHO to intake in the post meal. Also currently I use some whey with some EFA as a pre workout shake as I notice that intensity and strength decrease when CHO are ingested beforehand. Is it ok to take just whey preworkout(44 grams) and would that be enough to keep me out of the catabolic state.

Thanks

[IPR]

Very interesting thread.

Not stating an opinion (abit hot in here at present it seems ) but all the debate with regard to low GI carbs post workout has centred around glycogen synthesis, but surely this is only a part of the impact the choice of post workout carbs has.

In an earlier post Bobo mentions that post workout GH is high so cortisol is lower than most assume and not as catabolic. But isn't this the period where GH drops along with testosterone and cortisol does rise with GH release having peaked somewhere between 20min to 50mins after commencement of exercise?

Considering the short shelf life of plasma GH, would high GI carbs post workout be of benefit with liver produced IGF-1, or for that matter to what extent does the level of insulin impact on muscle hypertrophy via the local IGF-1 produced?

Another question I have in my mind is low GI or high GI better in respect of achieving a rebound in test levels follwoing exercise?

Finally, JB promotes pre-workout carbs, to what extent will this impact on GH release during exercise if any?

I should point out that I am looking at this from a low-carbing/CKD standpoint.

[phidelt]

i've been pondering this whole high gi vs low gi issue for a while as well, and this thread raises some interesting issues. i personally am not fond of the malto/dextro combo at all, it just seems so unnatural, and i dont really feel that such a large portion of my daily carb intake should come from this source. further, after a workout, i am STARVING. i don't feel like having any kind of shake, and dont feel right delaying my hunger with a shake. on the contrary, i crave food, a big meal of steak, tuna, potatoes etc. of course, if a shake really is best, then i'm all for it. i'm also always leary of the supplement industry, and feel they have a large hand in the idea of the post workout shake, and fund many of the studies that support their products.
in any event, if high gi carbs with protein elicit the greatest insulin response, does that necessarily mean this will produce the greatest amount of muscle? i mean, does faster really mean better? i'm also curious what pros consume post workout, does anyone know? i read dave draper's book, brother iron sister steel, and know that he eats a hamburger patty and baked potato (high gi carb, intentional?). he is pretty old school tho..........

PD

[chi_town]

IPR, good points......you need to stop by here more often .
BTW.......its not hot over here, it just a severly high testoerone enviornment.......alot of 1-test and other goodies used by many here. Don't sweat these guys.......they just seem like @ssholes........but they are not. It's a mix of sarcasm and science in here......LOL

For those of you who don't know him.
IPR is a fellow Mod at CKD.com

PEACE

[IPR]

Thanks Chi

Been spending a fair bit of time just reading on this forum.......so much great stuff posted.

[scotty2]

Originally posted by chi_town
they just seem like @ssholes........but they are not.

oh no................................they are

[Kruger]

He's right. We are

[chi_town]

Look there's one of the AM clowns now.

Hey BOZO......I mean bobo, your not an @ss, your just socially challenged.

It's like a circus in here.......... LOL