Low GI Post workout drink, really???

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  1. Originally posted by Timbo


    The hell you are, you conceited bastard Just pullin' your leg, brutha. You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.

    Keep up the great work, my friend
    Funny thing is I might be the most modest person in real life you've ever met! Thats usually how it works though....hehe


    The King I am not! Just trying to do my part...Keep posting here Timbo. You bring a good attitude and you compliment me very well. I don't need a bigger head...LOL
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.


  2. Bobo, thanks for the oh-so kind compliments. You're a classy guy, and I have the utmost respect for you. I'll keep your head from swelling too much. Funny subject, though, because I've recently had to buy new fitted hats, as mine no longer are big enough!

    Talk about modesty, Bobo, I'm right up there with you. While this is good sometimes, it can also be detrimental. You just have to be confident and know when to crank it up.
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  3. For you guys that grind up your oats...I know that I had once read on Mendoza's GI site that this modified the glycemic response (i.e. amplified it). But I've been searching and searching. I could only come up with this bit:

    Particle size is also an important factor, according to a 1988 study by Heaton et al. The researchers found that the GI of wheat, maize, and oats increased from whole grains (lowest GI), cracked grains, coarse flour, to fine flour (highest GI).
    I couldn't find the actual research.

    Now, this may not actually be a dilemma for those who grind up your oats for post-workout (however, I would argue differently if this were the method of ingestion at all times of the day), as the increased glycemic response might lead to an amplified insulin response, which is desired at this time for anti-catabolic properties.

  4. Just wanted to add some more reading to the list of fun. Check out this article, as it might provide some helpful and insightful info:


    Glycemic Index and Exercise Metabolism
  5. Talking The clown who became king


    Originally posted by Timbo
    You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.
    The pipe dream of every Ringling Brothers employee. You just made the Bobo one happy clown!
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  6. Originally posted by Timbo
    For you guys that grind up your oats...I know that I had once read on Mendoza's GI site that this modified the glycemic response (i.e. amplified it). But I've been searching and searching. I couldn't find the actual research. Now, this may not actually be a dilemma for those who grind up your oats for post-workout (however, I would argue differently if this were the method of ingestion at all times of the day), as the increased glycemic response might lead to an amplified insulin response, which is desired at this time for anti-catabolic properties.
    didn't catch the studies I put up earlier Timbo?

  7. Biggin, how could I overlook your knowledge bombs? How dare you accuse me of such blasphemy!

    Your posted studies covered cooked vs. raw oats, not particle size (i.e. whole-rolled vs. grinded).

    I'm looking for this Heaton study, but to no avail.

  8. my bad need to read more carefully. will be looking for your Heaton **** if you can find it

  9. Timbo lives up to and defines his avatar once again...<i>Here I come to save the day...</i>

    I found the Heaton study, and now all you grinders can quit holding your breath and wipe the sweat off your brow. Man, it blows to prove <i>yourself</i> wrong

    ********************
    Am J Clin Nutr 1988 Apr;47(4):675-82 Related Articles, Links


    Particle size of wheat, maize, and oat test meals: effects on plasma glucose and insulin responses and on the rate of starch digestion in vitro.

    Heaton KW, Marcus SN, Emmett PM, Bolton CH.

    University Department of Medicine, Bristol Royal Infirmary, UK.

    When normal volunteers ate isocaloric wheat-based meals, their plasma insulin responses (peak concentration and area under curve) increased stepwise: whole grains less than cracked grains less than coarse flour less than fine flour. <b><i>Insulin responses</i></b> were also greater with fine maizemeal than with whole or cracked maize grains but <b><i>were similar with whole groats, rolled oats, and fine oatmeal.</i></b> The peak-to-nadir swing of plasma glucose was greater with wheat flour than with cracked or whole grains. In vitro starch hydrolysis by pancreatic amylase was faster with decreasing particle size with all three cereals. Correlation with the in vivo data was imperfect. Oat-based meals evoked smaller glucose and insulin responses than wheat- or maize-based meals. Particle size influences the digestion rate and consequent metabolic effects of wheat and maize but not oats. The increased insulin response to finely ground flour may be relevant to the etiology of diseases associated with hyperinsulinemia and to the management of diabetes.

  10. So let me get this right
    Hypothteically Work out time is 5:30 pm

    15 minutes before breakfast
    5 grams creatine
    5 grams Glutemine
    meal 1
    protein,carbs, EFAS
    1 (protein):1(carb) with 1 TBSP EFA
    500 mgs ALA
    1000 mgs ginger
    meal 2 -3
    protein and EFAS, fiber
    1000 mgs ginger

    330 10 grams glutemine
    400 EC STAck

    meal 4 preworkout meal 430
    2 scoops whey isolate with 3/4 cup oats
    500 mgs ALA ?

    with in 15 minutes
    post workout meal 1
    40 grams malot /40 grams dextrose
    40 grams whey islolate
    10 grams glutemine
    5 grams Creatine
    750 mgs ALA

    an hour and a half following
    post workout meal 2
    6 oz chicken
    6 oz yam
    Veggies
    250 ALA

    before bed time
    protein, flax, fiber

    Is this scenerio look feasible ?

    Would you take ALA with pre workout meal as well ?

    thanks

    By way john berrardi is my old training partner and good freind

  11. Well the dicsussion here is about dropping the malto/dex post workout and replacing it with the oats so there would be NO high GI carbs in your day at all. Pre workout meal looks good though. Not sure on the ALA, I don't use it unless I'm cutting.

  12. Originally posted by Draven
    Well the dicsussion here is about dropping the malto/dex post workout and replacing it with the oats so there would be NO high GI carbs in your day at all. Pre workout meal looks good though. Not sure on the ALA, I don't use it unless I'm cutting.
    Maybe I missed something along the thread, but if you end up dropping dex post workout how will you get your insulin level spiked for creatine uptake?

  13. The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  14. Originally posted by Bobo
    The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.
    &nbsp;

    I was just concerned a low gi carb source such as oats wouldn't spike your insulin sufficiently like dex will.&nbsp; Works for me I would prefer to drop the dex/malto.&nbsp; Although I'm still considering switching to oats for pre-workout and malto/dex post.&nbsp; Especially since I have a Shltload of malto sitting here.

  15. Hardasnails said:
    By way john berrardi is my old training partner and good freind
    Sweet! JB is a very good friend of mine also, Nails. I would've thought that you would have spelled his name right though (i.e. Berardi) since you know him so well Just busting ya, brutha.

    It seems that you'd be violating some of JB's principles with your combos of fats and carbs and also fiber with flax.

    ALA with the pre and post meals will be fine, but 750mg seems high to me.

  16. i guess this low gi post workout drink wouldn't be good if i wanted to get my creatine sent to my muscles quickly?

  17. Explain the protein, fats, fiber rule.. I thought that Fiber slows absorption of protein and stablizes your blood sugar levels. Correct me if I'm worng Timbo I'm eager to learn as well...

  18. Read "Massive Eating Principles" by John Berardi - either on t-mag.com or on JB's own website.

  19. Nelson how did it go with the creatine and low GI carbs post-w?

  20. Man, how did I miss this thread.


    Originally posted by Bobo
    The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.


    Ok, I read this whole thread..and most of al the studies posted. I'm not sure I am that convinced.

    We know from other studies......that whey itself is shown to spike insulin. By removing all dex or malto and replacing it with just say oatmeal.......does this really prove that the added insulin spike that the dex or malto is not needed.
    The way I read, it most of these studies we doing testing samples 3-6 or more hours post PW shake.

    I think this really is more complicated than some here have led us to believe. The PW shake does many things as we all know. Which thing is more important........I';m not sure.....but IMO increasing glycogen synthisis, glycogen storage....as well as generally getting the body QUICKLY out of the catabolic state it is from training must surely be what is optimal.

    I feel that many people take in entirely to many carbs PW period. This may be why some have had better results (ie. less fat gain and decent recovery) from lower GI carbs. This is just my theory. If someone ingests a ton of high GI carbs........ie. way to much.....surely the resulting fat storage and insulin spike rebound and plumitting that occurs would not be optimal and could actually cause some insulin insensitivity. But on the other hand if one uses some common sense and ingests the proper amount of high GI carbs PW..........then I have to believe that gettting the body quickly out of the catabolic state must be the most important goal and focusing on one minute part of the recovery and replenishment process is short sighted and get us lost. We get lost down a path that actually deviates us from our true goal.

    Protein by itself does a decent job PW.
    Of course the addition of carbs......be them High or Low Gi will surely help.

    What we are talking about is ........which one is OPTIMAL.

    I'm staying with High GI (moderate amounts, 30-50 grams depending on LMB) until I see more convincing overall evidence.


    also.........


    Timbo,

    Do you have anything that supprts your insulin sensitivity sucks when comming off keto theory.

    You guys are great and I just love this level of discussion.



    PEACE

  21. I'm with you Chi. The studies weren't enough to sway me.

  22. Nor am I. Which is why I started the thread. I have to say I've since dropped my carbs to 50g PW (from 100g before ) but still use a high GI malto/dex mix in combination with 35g of whey.

    To be honest I think both ways work and that the minute differences High vs Low GI make aren't really all that important. Perhaps a little less spillage with the low GI but a quicker anti-catabloic response with high GI.

    I still find alot of the studies vary so greatly in the amount of carbs used and the methodology used in the experiment that you could prove either or to be better for some reason or another.
    Last edited by Draven; 06-04-2003 at 12:55 PM.

  23. Originally posted by Draven

    I still find alot of the studies vary so greatly in the amount of carbs used and the methodology used in the experiment that you could prove either or to be better for some reason or another.
    Then do so. I've seen none that state High GI carbs increase the rate of synthesis.

    I don't mind that your not swayed but at least show me why.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  24. Originally posted by scotty2
    I'm with you Chi. The studies weren't enough to sway me.
    THen I assume I would of done a better job without any studies? THats what the High GI side. No studies.
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  25. Originally posted by chi_town
    Man, how did I miss this thread.







    I think this really is more complicated than some here have led us to believe. The PW shake does many things as we all know. Which thing is more important........I';m not sure.....but IMO increasing glycogen synthisis, glycogen storage....as well as generally getting the body QUICKLY out of the catabolic state it is from training must surely be what is optimal.




    PEACE
    If we look at just those points, I have you covered.

    1. Increasing glycogen synthesis? Its not changed with either

    Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

    Costill DL.

    The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

    2. Glyocgen storage? Well both can do this.

    Effect of different types of high carbohydrate diets on glycogen metabolism in liver and skeletal muscle of endurance-trained rats.

    Garrido G, Guzman M, Odriozola JM.

    Department of Human Performance, National Institute of Physical Education, Madrid, Spain.

    Male Wistar rats were fed ad libitum four different diets containing fructose, sucrose, maltodextrins or starch as the source of carbohydrate (CH). One group was subjected to moderate physical training on a motor-driven treadmill for 10 weeks (trained rats). A second group received no training and acted as a control (sedentary rats). Glycogen metabolism was studied in the liver and skeletal muscle of these animals. In the sedentary rats, liver glycogen concentrations increased by 60%-90% with the administration of simple CH diets compared with complex CH diets, whereas skeletal muscle glycogen stores were not significantly affected by the diet. Physical training induced a marked decrease in the glycogen content in liver (20%-30% of the sedentary rats) and skeletal muscle (50%-80% of the sedentary rats) in animals fed simple (but not complex) CH diets. In liver this was accompanied by a two-fold increase of triacylglycerol concentrations. Compared with simple CH diets, complex CH feeding increased by 50%-150% glycogen synthase (GS) activity in liver, whereas only a slight increase in GS activity was observed in skeletal muscle. In all the animal groups, a direct relationship existed between tissue glucose 6-phosphate concentration and glycogen content (r = 0.9911 in liver, r = 0.7177 in skeletal muscle). In contrast, no relationship was evident between glycogen concentrations and either glycogen phosphorylase activity or adenosine 5'-monophosphate tissue concentration. The results from this study thus suggest that for trained rats diets containing complex CH (compared with diets containing simple CH) improve the glycogenic capacity of liver and skeletal muscle, thus enabling the adequate regeneration of glycogen stores in these two tissues.

    3. Getting the body out of catabolic state? Insulin does this, not glyocgen. Not to emtion your not that catabolic post workout due to increased GH secretions. Even if it was glyogen, the fist phase of glycogen replenishment is insulin independent, so whats the point of creating a large spike if its not needed?



    If those are your requirements, I've done it. Is it better? Nobody said that but it much less risky and overall more healthy in the long run while producing the same results. In some, the results seem better with increased energy, more fat lose witht the same LBM gains, less of a crash, etc....
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