Low GI Post workout drink, really???

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  1. Well the dicsussion here is about dropping the malto/dex post workout and replacing it with the oats so there would be NO high GI carbs in your day at all. Pre workout meal looks good though. Not sure on the ALA, I don't use it unless I'm cutting.


  2. Originally posted by Draven
    Well the dicsussion here is about dropping the malto/dex post workout and replacing it with the oats so there would be NO high GI carbs in your day at all. Pre workout meal looks good though. Not sure on the ALA, I don't use it unless I'm cutting.
    Maybe I missed something along the thread, but if you end up dropping dex post workout how will you get your insulin level spiked for creatine uptake?
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  3. The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.
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  4. Originally posted by Bobo
    The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.
     

    I was just concerned a low gi carb source such as oats wouldn't spike your insulin sufficiently like dex will.  Works for me I would prefer to drop the dex/malto.  Although I'm still considering switching to oats for pre-workout and malto/dex post.  Especially since I have a Shltload of malto sitting here.

  5. Hardasnails said:
    By way john berrardi is my old training partner and good freind
    Sweet! JB is a very good friend of mine also, Nails. I would've thought that you would have spelled his name right though (i.e. Berardi) since you know him so well Just busting ya, brutha.

    It seems that you'd be violating some of JB's principles with your combos of fats and carbs and also fiber with flax.

    ALA with the pre and post meals will be fine, but 750mg seems high to me.

  6. i guess this low gi post workout drink wouldn't be good if i wanted to get my creatine sent to my muscles quickly?

  7. Explain the protein, fats, fiber rule.. I thought that Fiber slows absorption of protein and stablizes your blood sugar levels. Correct me if I'm worng Timbo I'm eager to learn as well...

  8. Read "Massive Eating Principles" by John Berardi - either on t-mag.com or on JB's own website.

  9. Nelson how did it go with the creatine and low GI carbs post-w?

  10. Man, how did I miss this thread.


    Originally posted by Bobo
    The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.


    Ok, I read this whole thread..and most of al the studies posted. I'm not sure I am that convinced.

    We know from other studies......that whey itself is shown to spike insulin. By removing all dex or malto and replacing it with just say oatmeal.......does this really prove that the added insulin spike that the dex or malto is not needed.
    The way I read, it most of these studies we doing testing samples 3-6 or more hours post PW shake.

    I think this really is more complicated than some here have led us to believe. The PW shake does many things as we all know. Which thing is more important........I';m not sure.....but IMO increasing glycogen synthisis, glycogen storage....as well as generally getting the body QUICKLY out of the catabolic state it is from training must surely be what is optimal.

    I feel that many people take in entirely to many carbs PW period. This may be why some have had better results (ie. less fat gain and decent recovery) from lower GI carbs. This is just my theory. If someone ingests a ton of high GI carbs........ie. way to much.....surely the resulting fat storage and insulin spike rebound and plumitting that occurs would not be optimal and could actually cause some insulin insensitivity. But on the other hand if one uses some common sense and ingests the proper amount of high GI carbs PW..........then I have to believe that gettting the body quickly out of the catabolic state must be the most important goal and focusing on one minute part of the recovery and replenishment process is short sighted and get us lost. We get lost down a path that actually deviates us from our true goal.

    Protein by itself does a decent job PW.
    Of course the addition of carbs......be them High or Low Gi will surely help.

    What we are talking about is ........which one is OPTIMAL.

    I'm staying with High GI (moderate amounts, 30-50 grams depending on LMB) until I see more convincing overall evidence.


    also.........


    Timbo,

    Do you have anything that supprts your insulin sensitivity sucks when comming off keto theory.

    You guys are great and I just love this level of discussion.



    PEACE
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  11. I'm with you Chi. The studies weren't enough to sway me.

  12. Nor am I. Which is why I started the thread. I have to say I've since dropped my carbs to 50g PW (from 100g before ) but still use a high GI malto/dex mix in combination with 35g of whey.

    To be honest I think both ways work and that the minute differences High vs Low GI make aren't really all that important. Perhaps a little less spillage with the low GI but a quicker anti-catabloic response with high GI.

    I still find alot of the studies vary so greatly in the amount of carbs used and the methodology used in the experiment that you could prove either or to be better for some reason or another.
    Last edited by Draven; 06-04-2003 at 12:55 PM.

  13. Originally posted by Draven

    I still find alot of the studies vary so greatly in the amount of carbs used and the methodology used in the experiment that you could prove either or to be better for some reason or another.
    Then do so. I've seen none that state High GI carbs increase the rate of synthesis.

    I don't mind that your not swayed but at least show me why.
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  14. Originally posted by scotty2
    I'm with you Chi. The studies weren't enough to sway me.
    THen I assume I would of done a better job without any studies? THats what the High GI side. No studies.
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  15. Originally posted by chi_town
    Man, how did I miss this thread.







    I think this really is more complicated than some here have led us to believe. The PW shake does many things as we all know. Which thing is more important........I';m not sure.....but IMO increasing glycogen synthisis, glycogen storage....as well as generally getting the body QUICKLY out of the catabolic state it is from training must surely be what is optimal.




    PEACE
    If we look at just those points, I have you covered.

    1. Increasing glycogen synthesis? Its not changed with either

    Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

    Costill DL.

    The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

    2. Glyocgen storage? Well both can do this.

    Effect of different types of high carbohydrate diets on glycogen metabolism in liver and skeletal muscle of endurance-trained rats.

    Garrido G, Guzman M, Odriozola JM.

    Department of Human Performance, National Institute of Physical Education, Madrid, Spain.

    Male Wistar rats were fed ad libitum four different diets containing fructose, sucrose, maltodextrins or starch as the source of carbohydrate (CH). One group was subjected to moderate physical training on a motor-driven treadmill for 10 weeks (trained rats). A second group received no training and acted as a control (sedentary rats). Glycogen metabolism was studied in the liver and skeletal muscle of these animals. In the sedentary rats, liver glycogen concentrations increased by 60%-90% with the administration of simple CH diets compared with complex CH diets, whereas skeletal muscle glycogen stores were not significantly affected by the diet. Physical training induced a marked decrease in the glycogen content in liver (20%-30% of the sedentary rats) and skeletal muscle (50%-80% of the sedentary rats) in animals fed simple (but not complex) CH diets. In liver this was accompanied by a two-fold increase of triacylglycerol concentrations. Compared with simple CH diets, complex CH feeding increased by 50%-150% glycogen synthase (GS) activity in liver, whereas only a slight increase in GS activity was observed in skeletal muscle. In all the animal groups, a direct relationship existed between tissue glucose 6-phosphate concentration and glycogen content (r = 0.9911 in liver, r = 0.7177 in skeletal muscle). In contrast, no relationship was evident between glycogen concentrations and either glycogen phosphorylase activity or adenosine 5'-monophosphate tissue concentration. The results from this study thus suggest that for trained rats diets containing complex CH (compared with diets containing simple CH) improve the glycogenic capacity of liver and skeletal muscle, thus enabling the adequate regeneration of glycogen stores in these two tissues.

    3. Getting the body out of catabolic state? Insulin does this, not glyocgen. Not to emtion your not that catabolic post workout due to increased GH secretions. Even if it was glyogen, the fist phase of glycogen replenishment is insulin independent, so whats the point of creating a large spike if its not needed?



    If those are your requirements, I've done it. Is it better? Nobody said that but it much less risky and overall more healthy in the long run while producing the same results. In some, the results seem better with increased energy, more fat lose witht the same LBM gains, less of a crash, etc....
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  16. Originally posted by Bobo


    Then do so. I've seen none that state High GI carbs increase the rate of synthesis.

    I don't mind that your not swayed but at least show me why.
    This one to start.

    Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the glycemic index of carbohydrate feedings.

    Burke LM, Collier GR, Hargreaves M.

    Department of Sports Medicine, Australian Institute of Sport, Australian Capital Territory.

    The effect of the glycemic index (GI) of postexercise carbohydrate intake on muscle glycogen storage was investigated. Five well-trained cyclists undertook an exercise trial to deplete muscle glycogen (2 h at 75% of maximal O2 uptake followed by four 30-s sprints) on two occasions, 1 wk apart. For 24 h after each trial, subjects rested and consumed a diet composed exclusively of high-carbohydrate foods, with one trial providing foods with a high GI (HI GI) and the other providing foods with a low GI (LO GI). Total carbohydrate intake over the 24 h was 10 g/kg of body mass, evenly distributed between meals eaten 0, 4, 8, and 21 h postexercise. Blood samples were drawn before exercise, immediately after exercise, immediately before each meal, and 30, 60, and 90 min post-prandially. Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis immediately after exercise and after 24 h. When the effects of the immediate postexercise meal were excluded, the totals of the incremental glucose and insulin areas after each meal were greater (P < or = 0.05) for the HI GI meals than for the LO GI meals. The increase in muscle glycogen content after 24 h of recovery was greater (P = 0.02) with the HI GI diet (106 +/- 11.7 mmol/kg wet wt) than with the LO GI diet (71.5 +/- 6.5 mmol/kg). The results suggest that the most rapid increase in muscle glycogen content during the first 24 h of recovery is achieved by consuming foods with a high GI.

  17. Originally posted by Bobo


    THen I assume I would of done a better job without any studies? THats what the High GI side. No studies.
    Dammit, Bobo. Would HAVE or would'VE.

  18. LOL Scotty!

    This is one of my pet peeves. Whatever happened to proper English?

  19. Sorry. I don't sit here and edit everyone one of my posts. My posts are full of grammar errors. You can never say I just cut and paste because their are too many errors.
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  20. Originally posted by Bobo
    Sorry. I don't sit here and edit everyone one of my posts. My posts are full of grammar errors. You can never say I just cut and paste because their are too many errors.
    I'm playing with you. I thought you did it purposely to fire me up.

  21. Originally posted by Draven


    This one to start.

    Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the glycemic index of carbohydrate feedings.

    Burke LM, Collier GR, Hargreaves M.

    Department of Sports Medicine, Australian Institute of Sport, Australian Capital Territory.

    The effect of the glycemic index (GI) of postexercise carbohydrate intake on muscle glycogen storage was investigated. Five well-trained cyclists undertook an exercise trial to deplete muscle glycogen (2 h at 75% of maximal O2 uptake followed by four 30-s sprints) on two occasions, 1 wk apart. For 24 h after each trial, subjects rested and consumed a diet composed exclusively of high-carbohydrate foods, with one trial providing foods with a high GI (HI GI) and the other providing foods with a low GI (LO GI). Total carbohydrate intake over the 24 h was 10 g/kg of body mass, evenly distributed between meals eaten 0, 4, 8, and 21 h postexercise. Blood samples were drawn before exercise, immediately after exercise, immediately before each meal, and 30, 60, and 90 min post-prandially. Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis immediately after exercise and after 24 h. When the effects of the immediate postexercise meal were excluded, the totals of the incremental glucose and insulin areas after each meal were greater (P &lt; or = 0.05) for the HI GI meals than for the LO GI meals. The increase in muscle glycogen content after 24 h of recovery was greater (P = 0.02) with the HI GI diet (106 +/- 11.7 mmol/kg wet wt) than with the LO GI diet (71.5 +/- 6.5 mmol/kg). The results suggest that the most rapid increase in muscle glycogen content during the first 24 h of recovery is achieved by consuming foods with a high GI.
    Once again, where does it say the RATE of resynthesis (muscle repair) is increased. I want the RATE not the AMOUNT.

    So I ask you once again, show me a study that shows the rate of muscle repair is increased with greater glycogen content. I've already shown you one that says it doesn't make a difference at all. It seems that the studies I have posted are relevant to points addressed, but the ones for the High GI camp are just opinion, specualtion and marketing from large supp companies.
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  22. Originally posted by scotty2


    I'm playing with you. I thought you did it purposely to fire me up.
    I can do that in chat. No need for it here. In fact I made a mistake in the post where I said I didn't check for grammar errors.
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  23. Originally posted by Draven


    This one to start.

    When the effects of the immediate postexercise meal were excluded, .[/color]
    So why would they do that? Could it be that the post exercise meals and/or shake reacts differently that the rest of the day? Could it be that your insulin sensitive after post exercise? Could be....
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  24. Originally posted by Bobo


    Once again, where does it say the RATE of resynthesis (muscle repair) is increased. I want the RATE not the AMOUNT.

    So I ask you once again, show me a study that shows the rate of muscle repair is increased with greater glycogen content. I've already shown you one that says it doesn't make a difference at all. It seems that the studies I have posted are relevant to points addressed, but the ones for the High GI camp are just opinion, specualtion and marketing from large supp companies.
    Well now your on to a different subject. you clearly said "I've seen none that state High GI carbs increase the rate of synthesis", to which the study I posted clearly says that glycogen was produced (synthesized) fatser and in greater quantity with high GI.

    Now, as you pointed out in the above study the rate of RE-synthesis of MUSCLE TISSUE is the same. So there shouldn't be any for or against either, right? We are thinking of two different things. Plus I never said one was greater than the other in this reagrd (resynthesis), just that most of the time you can find studies to back both options, which is true. They both work.

  25. Another one:

    Comparison of carbohydrate and milk-based beverages on muscle damage and glycogen following exercise.

    Wojcik JR, Walber-Rankin J, Smith LL, Gwazdauskas FC.

    Department of Human Nutrition, Foods, and Exercise at Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University, Blacksburg 24061, USA.

    This study examined effects of carbohydrate (CHO), milk-based carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO), or placebo (P) beverages on glycogen resynthesis, muscle damage, inflammation, and muscle function following eccentric resistance exercise. Untrained males performed a cycling exercise to reduce muscle glycogen 12 hours prior to performance of 100 eccentric quadriceps contractions at 120% of 1-RM (day 1) and drank CHO (n = 8), CHO-PRO (n = 9; 5 kcal/kg), or P (n = 9) immediately and 2 hours post-exercise. At 3 hours post-eccentric exercise, serum insulin was four times higher for CHO-PRO and CHO than P (p < .05). Serum creatine kinase (CK) increased for all groups in the 6 hours post-eccentric exercise (p < .01), with the increase tending to be lowest for CHO-PRO (p < .08) during this period. Glycogen was low post-exercise (33+/-3.7 mmol/kg ww), increased 225% at 24 hours, and tripled by 72 hours, with no group differences. The eccentric exercise increased muscle protein breakdown as indicated by urinary 3-methylhistidine and increased IL-6 with no effect of beverage. Quadriceps isokinetic peak torque was depressed similarly for all groups by 24% 24 hours post-exercise and remained 21% lower at 72 hours (p < .01). In summary, there were no influences of any post-exercise beverage on muscle glycogen replacement, inflammation, or muscle function.


    Last time I checked, milk is pretty low GI.
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  26. More?

    Simple and complex carbohydrate-rich diets and muscle glycogen content of marathon runners.

    Roberts KM, Noble EG, Hayden DB, Taylor AW.

    Faculty of Physical Education, University of Western Ontario, London, Canada.

    The effects of simple-carbohydrate (CHO)- and complex-CHO-rich diets on skeletal muscle glycogen content were compared. Twenty male marathon runners were divided into four equal groups with reference to dietary consumption: depletion/simple, depletion/complex, nondepletion/simple, and nondepletion/complex. Subjects consumed either a low-CHO (15% energy [E] intake), or a mixed diet (50% CHO) for 3 days, immediately followed by a high-CHO diet (70% E intake) predominant in either simple-CHO or in complex-CHO (85% of total CHO intake) for another 3 days. Skeletal muscle biopsies and venous blood samples were obtained one day prior to the start of the low-CHO diet or mixed diet (PRE), and then again one day after the completion of the high-CHO diet (POST). The samples were analysed for skeletal muscle glycogen, serum free fatty acids (FFA), insulin, and lactate and blood glucose. Skeletal muscle glycogen content increased significantly (p less than 0.05) only in the nondepletion/simple group. When groups were combined, according to the type of CHO ingested and/or utilization of a depletion diet, significant increases were observed in glycogen content. Serum FFA decreased significantly (p less than 0.05) for the nondepletion/complex group only, while serum insulin, blood glucose, and serum lactate were not altered. It is concluded that significant increases in skeletal muscle glycogen content can be achieved with a diet high in simple-CHO or complex-CHO, with or without initial consumption of a low-CHO diet.
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  27. Originally posted by Bobo


    So why would they do that? Could it be that the post exercise meals and/or shake reacts differently that the rest of the day? Could it be that your insulin sensitive after post exercise? Could be....
    They were removing the fact that there would be a greater insulin response post workout from high GI and they were looking at the daily totals not immediate response. You've said yourself it's not only about the immediate response but the what happens over the next 24/hrs.

    I don't understand why you're getting so aggressive with this, all I said was that both worked and there are studies to back noth, calm down.

  28. Originally posted by Draven


    They were removing the fact that there would be a greater insulin response post workout from high GI and they were looking at the daily totals not immediate response. You've said yourself it's not only about the immediate response but the what happens over the next 24/hrs.

    I don't understand why you're getting so aggressive with this, all I said was that both worked and there are studies to back noth, calm down.
    Bobo is militant.

  29. Originally posted by Draven


    Well now your on to a different subject. you clearly said &quot;I've seen none that state High GI carbs increase the rate of synthesis&quot;, to which the study I posted clearly says that glycogen was produced (synthesized) fatser and in greater quantity with high GI.

    Now, as you pointed out in the above study the rate of RE-synthesis of MUSCLE TISSUE is the same. So there shouldn't be any for or against either, right? We are thinking of two different things. Plus I never said one was greater than the other in this reagrd (resynthesis), just that most of the time you can find studies to back both options, which is true. They both work.
    You knew what I was referring too because it went with the arguement thats in the numerous pages of this debate. THe AMOUNT doesn't effect the RATE. As for the benefits, are you going to sit there and tell me from a health aspect that consuming High GI sources are better in the long run than a lower GI source (oatmeal)? Which one is better? Which one will have a greater effect on insulin sensisitivity in the long run? Which was has a greater chance of being stored as adipose tissue since a some of the circualting glucsoe does not get utilized by the exercised muscles? (study already posted). I would like to know why you would recommend a high GI source to anyone since the first phase (30-60 minutes) is insulin independent on glycogen storage? Is is the "catabolic" arguement because that one is already been shown to be bunk.
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  30. Originally posted by Draven


    They were removing the fact that there would be a greater insulin response post workout from high GI and they were looking at the daily totals not immediate response. You've said yourself it's not only about the immediate response but the what happens over the next 24/hrs.

    I don't understand why you're getting so aggressive with this, all I said was that both worked and there are studies to back noth, calm down.
    I though the thread title was "Low GI POST workout drink". My point were addressing the immediate response as the title implies.

    Aggressive? Oh come on. THis isn't even close to being aggressive.
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