Low GI Post workout drink, really???

[Draven]

N'Pursuit, 2 cups????? How the heck would you get that much to dissolve in a shake? Wouldn't that make it like mud?

How do you guys find the texture and taste putting oats in a shake?

[NPursuit]

Draven just going by Bobo's statement. Sounded a little much, but I've never thrown oats in my shakes. I've always been pretty simple with my shakes. Whey or blend, malto, glutamine.

[Timbo]

Try this out for your post-workout meal:

Fat-Free Cottage Cheese
Protein Powder
Oats
Banana

*Quantities vary accordingly. Freeze this for about an hour and it's like cheesecake.

Okay, now onto business.

Draven said:

It would make sense that a low GI diet would increase insulin sensitivity like a zero carb diet does when on a keto.

A low GI diet may very well enhance insulin sensitivity. But a ketogenic diet? Not hardly. Ask anyone of the guys around here how their glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity is coming off keto. Anything but sensitive.

Draven said:

To me this only proves that the addition of protein to a post workout shake has no effect on glycogen resysnthesis.

Like Bobo already directed us, this is a flawed statement. The Ivy study is basically the standard. Here's another one from the group to add to it:

****************************** ****
J Strength Cond Res 2003 Feb;17(1):12-9


Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance.

Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL.

Cardiovascular Research Institute, University of North Texas, Health Science Center at Fort Worth, Texas 76107, USA. johnivy@mail.utexas.edu

The restorative capacities of a high carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO) beverage containing electrolytes and a traditional 6% carbohydrate-electrolyte sports beverage (SB) were assessed after glycogen-depleting exercise. Postexercise ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage, in comparison with the SB, resulted in a 55% greater time to exhaustion during a subsequent exercise bout at 85% maximum oxygen consumption (VO(2)max). The greater recovery after the intake of the CHO-PRO beverage could be because of a greater rate of muscle glycogen storage. Therefore, a second study was designed to investigate the effects of after exercise CHO-PRO and SB supplements on muscle glycogen restoration. Eight endurance-trained cyclists (VO(2)max = 62.1 +/- 2.2 ml.kg(-1) body wt.min(-1)) performed 2 trials consisting of a 2-hour glycogen-depletion ride at 65-75% VO(2)max. Carbohydrate-protein (355 ml; approximately 0.8 g carbohydrate (CHO).kg(-1) body wt and approximately 0.2 g protein.kg(-1) body wt) or SB (355 ml; approximately 0.3 g CHO.kg(-1) body wt) was provided immediately and 2 hours after exercise. Trials were randomized and separated by 7-15 days. Ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage resulted in a 17% greater plasma glucose response, a 92% greater insulin response, and a 128% greater storage of muscle glycogen (159 +/- 18 and 69 +/- 32 micromol.g(-1) dry weight for CHO-PRO and SB, respectively) compared with the SB (p < 0.05). These findings indicate that the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggest that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement.

****************************

Here's another for the fun of it:

Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11


Maximizing postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures.

van Loon LJ, Saris WH, Kruijshoop M, Wagenmakers AJ.

From the Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands. L.vanLoon@hb.unimaas.nl

BACKGROUND: Postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis is an important factor in determining the time needed to recover from prolonged exercise. OBJECTIVE: This study investigated whether an increase in carbohydrate intake, ingestion of a mixture of protein hydrolysate and amino acids in combination with carbohydrate, or both results in higher postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis rates than does ingestion of 0.8 g*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) carbohydrate, provided at 30-min intervals. DESIGN: Eight trained cyclists visited the laboratory 3 times, during which a control beverage and 2 other beverages were tested. After the subjects participated in a strict glycogen-depletion protocol, muscle biopsy samples were collected. The subjects received a beverage every 30 min to ensure ingestion of 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (Carb trial), 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) plus 0.4 g wheat protein hydrolysate plus free leucine and phenylalanine*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (proven to be highly insulinotropic; Carb + Pro trial), or 1.2 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (Carb + Carb trial). After 5 h, a second biopsy was taken. RESULTS: Plasma insulin responses in the Carb + Pro and Carb + Carb trials were higher than those in the Carb trial (88 +/- 17% and 46 +/- 18%; P < 0.05). Muscle glycogen synthesis was higher in both trials than in the Carb trial (35. 4 +/- 5.1 and 44.8 +/- 6.8 compared with 16.6 +/- 7.8 micromol glycosol units*g dry wt(-)(1)*h(-)(1), respectively; P < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Addition of a mixture of protein hydrolysate and amino acids to a carbohydrate-containing solution (at an intake of 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1)) can stimulate glycogen synthesis. However, glycogen synthesis can also be accelerated by increasing carbohydrate intake (0.4 g*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1)) when supplements are provided at 30-min intervals.
**************************

Admittedly, I find this topic very interesting. I'm experimenting with that approach that seems to be highly advised and acceptable here. I know John Berardi is working on some data on recovery parameters with Surge.

When the issue of insulin sensitivity comes up, I really don't think you should be concerned when ingesting the high GI carbs. As an active individual, following an acute bout of resistance and/or aerobic training, you have a heightened state of insulin sensitivity.

[Draven]

Originally posted by Timbo
A low GI diet may very well enhance insulin sensitivity. But a ketogenic diet? Not hardly. Ask anyone of the guys around here how their glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity is coming off keto. Anything but sensitive.

Hmm, well perhaps I'm misreading this but not according to Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., D’Alessio, D.A., et al., "Effects of a Low Carbohydrate Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors", College of Nursing and College of Medicine, University of Cincinnati.

Summary:

Popular weight loss diets, such as the low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet, are adopted by millions of Americans each year. However, rigorous, well-controlled studies of their efficacy and safety are limited. Thirty-four mildly obese women (BMI of 30-34 kg/m2) were recruited for a six-month clinical study to investigate the effects of a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet on body weight and cardiovascular risk factors. The study included a three-month weight loss intervention followed by a three-month follow-up period during which no intervention occurred. Subjects were randomly assigned to either an ad libitum low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet that restricted carbohydrate intake to less than 10% of kcal, or a control diet with modest caloric restriction (1200-1500 kcal/d) and recommended distributions of fat (30% of kcal) and carbohydrate (55% of kcal) conforming to recommendations of the American Heart Association. Twenty-six subjects (76%) completed the trial, with an equal number of dropouts from each diet group. Mean weight loss was significantly greater in the ketogenic diet group than in the control diet group at three months (8.0+1.0 vs. 4.4+1.1 kg; p<0.02) and at six months (7.9+1.4 vs. 3.2+1.3 kg; p<0.02). As measured by DEXA scans, the mean percentage body fat decreased in both groups at three months (1.7+.46 vs. 1.3+.48) and at six months (2.2+.58 vs. .74+.49). Blood pressure, total cholesterol, and LDL-cholesterol decreased, and HDL-cholesterol increased, in both groups. Plasma insulin levels decreased in both groups suggesting an improvement in insulin sensitivity. Triglyceride levels decreased significantly more in the ketogenic diet group than in the control diet group (65.3+17.2 vs. 15.2+8.2 mg/dl; p<0.02) at three months. These results indicate that for short periods of time, a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet is efficacious in causing weight loss and has no deleterious effects on cardiovascular risk factors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Now I know this only suggests the fact and doesn't absolutely confirm sensitivity but this study is what gave me that impression.

[Timbo]

Draven, that's a valant effort, my friend, but you've got to understand the physiology before quoting and believing something like that. I'll explain in just a second.

I, myself have never partaken in a ketogenic diet, but I guarantee that if you ask any of the other regular low-carb roamers around here, they will tell you that coming off a prolonged ketogenic diet, their insulin sensivitiy and glucose tolerance sucks.

Now, back to the matter at hand. Of course plasma insulin levels dropped, they were on a ketogenic diet for six months! During this time, they consumed no more than 10% of total calories. This abstract doesn't mention absolute calories, but it does say that caloric restriction was in the range of 1200-1500 kcals/day. Considering these are women, they're probably not dieting on more than 1000 kcals/day (though, I'd like to know for sure). Therefore, carb intake is probably roughly around 25g/day. Surprise, ketogenic diet!

With a prolonged ketogenic diet, which six-months definitely qualifies as prolonged, the body will switch into a relative fat-burning mode where insulin levels and blood glucose are always at baseline. However, before these fatties got on this type of diet (i.e. which would represent pre-testing and dieting values), they were in a state in which their blood glucose and insulin levels were like a roller coaster ride at Six Flags Themeparks. They were in a sugar-burning state.

Actually, Draven, this is an excellent study to pull up. It shows the efficacy of a low-carb diet for obese populations, diabetic populations and patients with a heightened risk for CVD. Keep this one in your pocket.

The bottom line, though, upon returning to a normal, mixed diet, one's sensitivity to insulin and tolerance to glucose will be hampered.

[Draven]

I wasn't really trying to dispute what you said, rather just showing you what lead me to believe that you would gain sensitivity from a keto diet.

I myself just tried a short stint on keto but am off now to start my 1-test cycle. I wasn't on long enough (3 weeks) to really say either way, senitive or insensitive.

Anyone know where I can find an upload link directly to the brain for this board?

Anyways, thanks for clearing that up Timbo.

[Dwight Schrute]

The most important part of that study Draven was the fact they were obese women. Given this fact they are very likey to be insulin resistant to begin with. A low carb diet will help their situation as its alreay been shown to help type II diabetics.

[Timbo]

That's cool, Dra. I'm glad that we could clear things up.

Just like my favorite clown mentioned, that fact that these are fatties indicates right away that their insulin sensitivity is awful.

I just wanted to add to the matter that the authors of this study are making an extremely far-fetched conclusion by relating plasma insulin levels to insulin sensitivity.

Insulin sensitivity refers to the relative amount of insulin secreted for a given load of blood glucose. That is, a person who is more sensitive to insulin will secrete less insulin for a given load of glucose, compared to another individual.

Now, if insulin levels are measured during the ketogenic diet, I guarantee that they'll be very low. But this really has nothing to do with insulin sensitivity because you're not eating any carbs!

Dra, as far as that upload link, you've got it right in front of you. All of us--including yourself--compose the brain of the board. I guarantee that not one individual on this board is more experienced, valuable or knowledgable than all the members as a whole.

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by Timbo
I guarantee that not one individual on this board is more experienced, valuable or knowledgable than all the members as a whole.

Yes I am.



hehe just kiddin.....

[Timbo]

hehe just kiddin

The hell you are, you conceited bastard Just pullin' your leg, brutha. You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.

Keep up the great work, my friend

[Dwight Schrute]

Originally posted by Timbo


The hell you are, you conceited bastard Just pullin' your leg, brutha. You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.

Keep up the great work, my friend

Funny thing is I might be the most modest person in real life you've ever met! Thats usually how it works though....hehe


The King I am not! Just trying to do my part...Keep posting here Timbo. You bring a good attitude and you compliment me very well. I don't need a bigger head...LOL

[Timbo]

Bobo, thanks for the oh-so kind compliments. You're a classy guy, and I have the utmost respect for you. I'll keep your head from swelling too much. Funny subject, though, because I've recently had to buy new fitted hats, as mine no longer are big enough!

Talk about modesty, Bobo, I'm right up there with you. While this is good sometimes, it can also be detrimental. You just have to be confident and know when to crank it up.

[Timbo]

For you guys that grind up your oats...I know that I had once read on Mendoza's GI site that this modified the glycemic response (i.e. amplified it). But I've been searching and searching. I could only come up with this bit:

Particle size is also an important factor, according to a 1988 study by Heaton et al. The researchers found that the GI of wheat, maize, and oats increased from whole grains (lowest GI), cracked grains, coarse flour, to fine flour (highest GI).

I couldn't find the actual research.

Now, this may not actually be a dilemma for those who grind up your oats for post-workout (however, I would argue differently if this were the method of ingestion at all times of the day), as the increased glycemic response might lead to an amplified insulin response, which is desired at this time for anti-catabolic properties.

[Timbo]

Just wanted to add some more reading to the list of fun. Check out this article, as it might provide some helpful and insightful info:


Glycemic Index and Exercise Metabolism

[John Benz]

Originally posted by Timbo
You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.

The pipe dream of every Ringling Brothers employee. You just made the Bobo one happy clown!

[Biggs]

Originally posted by Timbo
For you guys that grind up your oats...I know that I had once read on Mendoza's GI site that this modified the glycemic response (i.e. amplified it). But I've been searching and searching. I couldn't find the actual research. Now, this may not actually be a dilemma for those who grind up your oats for post-workout (however, I would argue differently if this were the method of ingestion at all times of the day), as the increased glycemic response might lead to an amplified insulin response, which is desired at this time for anti-catabolic properties.

didn't catch the studies I put up earlier Timbo?

[Timbo]

Biggin, how could I overlook your knowledge bombs? How dare you accuse me of such blasphemy!

Your posted studies covered cooked vs. raw oats, not particle size (i.e. whole-rolled vs. grinded).

I'm looking for this Heaton study, but to no avail.

[Biggs]

my bad need to read more carefully. will be looking for your Heaton **** if you can find it

[Timbo]

Timbo lives up to and defines his avatar once again...<i>Here I come to save the day...</i>

I found the Heaton study, and now all you grinders can quit holding your breath and wipe the sweat off your brow. Man, it blows to prove <i>yourself</i> wrong

********************
Am J Clin Nutr 1988 Apr;47(4):675-82 Related Articles, Links


Particle size of wheat, maize, and oat test meals: effects on plasma glucose and insulin responses and on the rate of starch digestion in vitro.

Heaton KW, Marcus SN, Emmett PM, Bolton CH.

University Department of Medicine, Bristol Royal Infirmary, UK.

When normal volunteers ate isocaloric wheat-based meals, their plasma insulin responses (peak concentration and area under curve) increased stepwise: whole grains less than cracked grains less than coarse flour less than fine flour. <b><i>Insulin responses</i></b> were also greater with fine maizemeal than with whole or cracked maize grains but <b><i>were similar with whole groats, rolled oats, and fine oatmeal.</i></b> The peak-to-nadir swing of plasma glucose was greater with wheat flour than with cracked or whole grains. In vitro starch hydrolysis by pancreatic amylase was faster with decreasing particle size with all three cereals. Correlation with the in vivo data was imperfect. Oat-based meals evoked smaller glucose and insulin responses than wheat- or maize-based meals. Particle size influences the digestion rate and consequent metabolic effects of wheat and maize but not oats. The increased insulin response to finely ground flour may be relevant to the etiology of diseases associated with hyperinsulinemia and to the management of diabetes.

[hardasnails1973]

So let me get this right
Hypothteically Work out time is 5:30 pm

15 minutes before breakfast
5 grams creatine
5 grams Glutemine
meal 1
protein,carbs, EFAS
1 (protein):1(carb) with 1 TBSP EFA
500 mgs ALA
1000 mgs ginger
meal 2 -3
protein and EFAS, fiber
1000 mgs ginger

330 10 grams glutemine
400 EC STAck

meal 4 preworkout meal 430
2 scoops whey isolate with 3/4 cup oats
500 mgs ALA ?

with in 15 minutes
post workout meal 1
40 grams malot /40 grams dextrose
40 grams whey islolate
10 grams glutemine
5 grams Creatine
750 mgs ALA

an hour and a half following
post workout meal 2
6 oz chicken
6 oz yam
Veggies
250 ALA

before bed time
protein, flax, fiber

Is this scenerio look feasible ?

Would you take ALA with pre workout meal as well ?

thanks

By way john berrardi is my old training partner and good freind