[Draven]

Well the dicsussion here is about dropping the malto/dex post workout and replacing it with the oats so there would be NO high GI carbs in your day at all. Pre workout meal looks good though. Not sure on the ALA, I don't use it unless I'm cutting.

[NPursuit]

Originally posted by Draven
Well the dicsussion here is about dropping the malto/dex post workout and replacing it with the oats so there would be NO high GI carbs in your day at all. Pre workout meal looks good though. Not sure on the ALA, I don't use it unless I'm cutting.

Maybe I missed something along the thread, but if you end up dropping dex post workout how will you get your insulin level spiked for creatine uptake?

[Kruger]

The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.

[NPursuit]

Originally posted by Bobo
The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.

 

I was just concerned a low gi carb source such as oats wouldn't spike your insulin sufficiently like dex will.  Works for me I would prefer to drop the dex/malto.  Although I'm still considering switching to oats for pre-workout and malto/dex post.  Especially since I have a Shltload of malto sitting here.

[Timbo]

Hardasnails said:

By way john berrardi is my old training partner and good freind

Sweet! JB is a very good friend of mine also, Nails. I would've thought that you would have spelled his name right though (i.e. Berardi) since you know him so well Just busting ya, brutha.

It seems that you'd be violating some of JB's principles with your combos of fats and carbs and also fiber with flax.

ALA with the pre and post meals will be fine, but 750mg seems high to me.

[pinoy]

i guess this low gi post workout drink wouldn't be good if i wanted to get my creatine sent to my muscles quickly?

[hardasnails1973]

Explain the protein, fats, fiber rule.. I thought that Fiber slows absorption of protein and stablizes your blood sugar levels. Correct me if I'm worng Timbo I'm eager to learn as well...

[RippedUp]

Read "Massive Eating Principles" by John Berardi - either on t-mag.com or on JB's own website.

[bachovas]

Nelson how did it go with the creatine and low GI carbs post-w?

[chi_town]

Man, how did I miss this thread.

Originally posted by Bobo
The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.

Ok, I read this whole thread..and most of al the studies posted. I'm not sure I am that convinced.

We know from other studies......that whey itself is shown to spike insulin. By removing all dex or malto and replacing it with just say oatmeal.......does this really prove that the added insulin spike that the dex or malto is not needed.
The way I read, it most of these studies we doing testing samples 3-6 or more hours post PW shake.

I think this really is more complicated than some here have led us to believe. The PW shake does many things as we all know. Which thing is more important........I';m not sure.....but IMO increasing glycogen synthisis, glycogen storage....as well as generally getting the body QUICKLY out of the catabolic state it is from training must surely be what is optimal.

I feel that many people take in entirely to many carbs PW period. This may be why some have had better results (ie. less fat gain and decent recovery) from lower GI carbs. This is just my theory. If someone ingests a ton of high GI carbs........ie. way to much.....surely the resulting fat storage and insulin spike rebound and plumitting that occurs would not be optimal and could actually cause some insulin insensitivity. But on the other hand if one uses some common sense and ingests the proper amount of high GI carbs PW..........then I have to believe that gettting the body quickly out of the catabolic state must be the most important goal and focusing on one minute part of the recovery and replenishment process is short sighted and get us lost. We get lost down a path that actually deviates us from our true goal.

Protein by itself does a decent job PW.
Of course the addition of carbs......be them High or Low Gi will surely help.

What we are talking about is ........which one is OPTIMAL.

I'm staying with High GI (moderate amounts, 30-50 grams depending on LMB) until I see more convincing overall evidence.


also.........


Timbo,

Do you have anything that supprts your insulin sensitivity sucks when comming off keto theory.

You guys are great and I just love this level of discussion.



PEACE

[scotty2]

I'm with you Chi. The studies weren't enough to sway me.

[Draven]

Nor am I. Which is why I started the thread. I have to say I've since dropped my carbs to 50g PW (from 100g before ) but still use a high GI malto/dex mix in combination with 35g of whey.

To be honest I think both ways work and that the minute differences High vs Low GI make aren't really all that important. Perhaps a little less spillage with the low GI but a quicker anti-catabloic response with high GI.

I still find alot of the studies vary so greatly in the amount of carbs used and the methodology used in the experiment that you could prove either or to be better for some reason or another.

[Kruger]

Originally posted by Draven

I still find alot of the studies vary so greatly in the amount of carbs used and the methodology used in the experiment that you could prove either or to be better for some reason or another.

Then do so. I've seen none that state High GI carbs increase the rate of synthesis.

I don't mind that your not swayed but at least show me why.

[Kruger]

Originally posted by scotty2
I'm with you Chi. The studies weren't enough to sway me.

THen I assume I would of done a better job without any studies? THats what the High GI side. No studies.

[Kruger]

Originally posted by chi_town
Man, how did I miss this thread.







I think this really is more complicated than some here have led us to believe. The PW shake does many things as we all know. Which thing is more important........I';m not sure.....but IMO increasing glycogen synthisis, glycogen storage....as well as generally getting the body QUICKLY out of the catabolic state it is from training must surely be what is optimal.




PEACE

If we look at just those points, I have you covered.

1. Increasing glycogen synthesis? Its not changed with either

Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

Costill DL.

The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

2. Glyocgen storage? Well both can do this.

Effect of different types of high carbohydrate diets on glycogen metabolism in liver and skeletal muscle of endurance-trained rats.

Garrido G, Guzman M, Odriozola JM.

Department of Human Performance, National Institute of Physical Education, Madrid, Spain.

Male Wistar rats were fed ad libitum four different diets containing fructose, sucrose, maltodextrins or starch as the source of carbohydrate (CH). One group was subjected to moderate physical training on a motor-driven treadmill for 10 weeks (trained rats). A second group received no training and acted as a control (sedentary rats). Glycogen metabolism was studied in the liver and skeletal muscle of these animals. In the sedentary rats, liver glycogen concentrations increased by 60%-90% with the administration of simple CH diets compared with complex CH diets, whereas skeletal muscle glycogen stores were not significantly affected by the diet. Physical training induced a marked decrease in the glycogen content in liver (20%-30% of the sedentary rats) and skeletal muscle (50%-80% of the sedentary rats) in animals fed simple (but not complex) CH diets. In liver this was accompanied by a two-fold increase of triacylglycerol concentrations. Compared with simple CH diets, complex CH feeding increased by 50%-150% glycogen synthase (GS) activity in liver, whereas only a slight increase in GS activity was observed in skeletal muscle. In all the animal groups, a direct relationship existed between tissue glucose 6-phosphate concentration and glycogen content (r = 0.9911 in liver, r = 0.7177 in skeletal muscle). In contrast, no relationship was evident between glycogen concentrations and either glycogen phosphorylase activity or adenosine 5'-monophosphate tissue concentration. The results from this study thus suggest that for trained rats diets containing complex CH (compared with diets containing simple CH) improve the glycogenic capacity of liver and skeletal muscle, thus enabling the adequate regeneration of glycogen stores in these two tissues.

3. Getting the body out of catabolic state? Insulin does this, not glyocgen. Not to emtion your not that catabolic post workout due to increased GH secretions. Even if it was glyogen, the fist phase of glycogen replenishment is insulin independent, so whats the point of creating a large spike if its not needed?



If those are your requirements, I've done it. Is it better? Nobody said that but it much less risky and overall more healthy in the long run while producing the same results. In some, the results seem better with increased energy, more fat lose witht the same LBM gains, less of a crash, etc....

[Draven]

Originally posted by Bobo


Then do so. I've seen none that state High GI carbs increase the rate of synthesis.

I don't mind that your not swayed but at least show me why.

This one to start.

Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the glycemic index of carbohydrate feedings.

Burke LM, Collier GR, Hargreaves M.

Department of Sports Medicine, Australian Institute of Sport, Australian Capital Territory.

The effect of the glycemic index (GI) of postexercise carbohydrate intake on muscle glycoge