Low GI Post workout drink, really???

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    N'Pursuit, 2 cups????? How the heck would you get that much to dissolve in a shake? Wouldn't that make it like mud?

    How do you guys find the texture and taste putting oats in a shake?

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    Draven just going by Bobo's statement. Sounded a little much, but I've never thrown oats in my shakes. I've always been pretty simple with my shakes. Whey or blend, malto, glutamine.
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    Try this out for your post-workout meal:

    Fat-Free Cottage Cheese
    Protein Powder
    Oats
    Banana

    *Quantities vary accordingly. Freeze this for about an hour and it's like cheesecake.

    Okay, now onto business.

    Draven said:
    It would make sense that a low GI diet would increase insulin sensitivity like a zero carb diet does when on a keto.
    A low GI diet may very well enhance insulin sensitivity. But a ketogenic diet? Not hardly. Ask anyone of the guys around here how their glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity is coming off keto. Anything but sensitive.

    Draven said:
    To me this only proves that the addition of protein to a post workout shake has no effect on glycogen resysnthesis.
    Like Bobo already directed us, this is a flawed statement. The Ivy study is basically the standard. Here's another one from the group to add to it:

    ****************************** ****
    J Strength Cond Res 2003 Feb;17(1):12-9


    Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance.

    Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL.

    Cardiovascular Research Institute, University of North Texas, Health Science Center at Fort Worth, Texas 76107, USA. johnivy@mail.utexas.edu

    The restorative capacities of a high carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO) beverage containing electrolytes and a traditional 6% carbohydrate-electrolyte sports beverage (SB) were assessed after glycogen-depleting exercise. Postexercise ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage, in comparison with the SB, resulted in a 55% greater time to exhaustion during a subsequent exercise bout at 85% maximum oxygen consumption (VO(2)max). The greater recovery after the intake of the CHO-PRO beverage could be because of a greater rate of muscle glycogen storage. Therefore, a second study was designed to investigate the effects of after exercise CHO-PRO and SB supplements on muscle glycogen restoration. Eight endurance-trained cyclists (VO(2)max = 62.1 +/- 2.2 ml.kg(-1) body wt.min(-1)) performed 2 trials consisting of a 2-hour glycogen-depletion ride at 65-75% VO(2)max. Carbohydrate-protein (355 ml; approximately 0.8 g carbohydrate (CHO).kg(-1) body wt and approximately 0.2 g protein.kg(-1) body wt) or SB (355 ml; approximately 0.3 g CHO.kg(-1) body wt) was provided immediately and 2 hours after exercise. Trials were randomized and separated by 7-15 days. Ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage resulted in a 17% greater plasma glucose response, a 92% greater insulin response, and a 128% greater storage of muscle glycogen (159 +/- 18 and 69 +/- 32 micromol.g(-1) dry weight for CHO-PRO and SB, respectively) compared with the SB (p < 0.05). These findings indicate that the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggest that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement.

    ****************************

    Here's another for the fun of it:

    Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11


    Maximizing postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures.

    van Loon LJ, Saris WH, Kruijshoop M, Wagenmakers AJ.

    From the Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands. L.vanLoon@hb.unimaas.nl

    BACKGROUND: Postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis is an important factor in determining the time needed to recover from prolonged exercise. OBJECTIVE: This study investigated whether an increase in carbohydrate intake, ingestion of a mixture of protein hydrolysate and amino acids in combination with carbohydrate, or both results in higher postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis rates than does ingestion of 0.8 g*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) carbohydrate, provided at 30-min intervals. DESIGN: Eight trained cyclists visited the laboratory 3 times, during which a control beverage and 2 other beverages were tested. After the subjects participated in a strict glycogen-depletion protocol, muscle biopsy samples were collected. The subjects received a beverage every 30 min to ensure ingestion of 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (Carb trial), 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) plus 0.4 g wheat protein hydrolysate plus free leucine and phenylalanine*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (proven to be highly insulinotropic; Carb + Pro trial), or 1.2 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (Carb + Carb trial). After 5 h, a second biopsy was taken. RESULTS: Plasma insulin responses in the Carb + Pro and Carb + Carb trials were higher than those in the Carb trial (88 +/- 17% and 46 +/- 18%; P < 0.05). Muscle glycogen synthesis was higher in both trials than in the Carb trial (35. 4 +/- 5.1 and 44.8 +/- 6.8 compared with 16.6 +/- 7.8 micromol glycosol units*g dry wt(-)(1)*h(-)(1), respectively; P < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Addition of a mixture of protein hydrolysate and amino acids to a carbohydrate-containing solution (at an intake of 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1)) can stimulate glycogen synthesis. However, glycogen synthesis can also be accelerated by increasing carbohydrate intake (0.4 g*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1)) when supplements are provided at 30-min intervals.
    **************************

    Admittedly, I find this topic very interesting. I'm experimenting with that approach that seems to be highly advised and acceptable here. I know John Berardi is working on some data on recovery parameters with Surge.

    When the issue of insulin sensitivity comes up, I really don't think you should be concerned when ingesting the high GI carbs. As an active individual, following an acute bout of resistance and/or aerobic training, you have a heightened state of insulin sensitivity.
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    Originally posted by Timbo
    A low GI diet may very well enhance insulin sensitivity. But a ketogenic diet? Not hardly. Ask anyone of the guys around here how their glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity is coming off keto. Anything but sensitive.
    Hmm, well perhaps I'm misreading this but not according to Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., D’Alessio, D.A., et al., "Effects of a Low Carbohydrate Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors", College of Nursing and College of Medicine, University of Cincinnati.

    Summary:

    Popular weight loss diets, such as the low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet, are adopted by millions of Americans each year. However, rigorous, well-controlled studies of their efficacy and safety are limited. Thirty-four mildly obese women (BMI of 30-34 kg/m2) were recruited for a six-month clinical study to investigate the effects of a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet on body weight and cardiovascular risk factors. The study included a three-month weight loss intervention followed by a three-month follow-up period during which no intervention occurred. Subjects were randomly assigned to either an ad libitum low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet that restricted carbohydrate intake to less than 10% of kcal, or a control diet with modest caloric restriction (1200-1500 kcal/d) and recommended distributions of fat (30% of kcal) and carbohydrate (55% of kcal) conforming to recommendations of the American Heart Association. Twenty-six subjects (76%) completed the trial, with an equal number of dropouts from each diet group. Mean weight loss was significantly greater in the ketogenic diet group than in the control diet group at three months (8.0+1.0 vs. 4.4+1.1 kg; p<0.02) and at six months (7.9+1.4 vs. 3.2+1.3 kg; p<0.02). As measured by DEXA scans, the mean percentage body fat decreased in both groups at three months (1.7+.46 vs. 1.3+.48) and at six months (2.2+.58 vs. .74+.49). Blood pressure, total cholesterol, and LDL-cholesterol decreased, and HDL-cholesterol increased, in both groups. Plasma insulin levels decreased in both groups suggesting an improvement in insulin sensitivity. Triglyceride levels decreased significantly more in the ketogenic diet group than in the control diet group (65.3+17.2 vs. 15.2+8.2 mg/dl; p<0.02) at three months. These results indicate that for short periods of time, a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet is efficacious in causing weight loss and has no deleterious effects on cardiovascular risk factors.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


    Now I know this only suggests the fact and doesn't absolutely confirm sensitivity but this study is what gave me that impression.
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    Draven, that's a valant effort, my friend, but you've got to understand the physiology before quoting and believing something like that. I'll explain in just a second.

    I, myself have never partaken in a ketogenic diet, but I guarantee that if you ask any of the other regular low-carb roamers around here, they will tell you that coming off a prolonged ketogenic diet, their insulin sensivitiy and glucose tolerance sucks.

    Now, back to the matter at hand. Of course plasma insulin levels dropped, they were on a ketogenic diet for six months! During this time, they consumed no more than 10% of total calories. This abstract doesn't mention absolute calories, but it does say that caloric restriction was in the range of 1200-1500 kcals/day. Considering these are women, they're probably not dieting on more than 1000 kcals/day (though, I'd like to know for sure). Therefore, carb intake is probably roughly around 25g/day. Surprise, ketogenic diet!

    With a prolonged ketogenic diet, which six-months definitely qualifies as prolonged, the body will switch into a relative fat-burning mode where insulin levels and blood glucose are always at baseline. However, before these fatties got on this type of diet (i.e. which would represent pre-testing and dieting values), they were in a state in which their blood glucose and insulin levels were like a roller coaster ride at Six Flags Themeparks. They were in a sugar-burning state.

    Actually, Draven, this is an excellent study to pull up. It shows the efficacy of a low-carb diet for obese populations, diabetic populations and patients with a heightened risk for CVD. Keep this one in your pocket.

    The bottom line, though, upon returning to a normal, mixed diet, one's sensitivity to insulin and tolerance to glucose will be hampered.
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    I wasn't really trying to dispute what you said, rather just showing you what lead me to believe that you would gain sensitivity from a keto diet.

    I myself just tried a short stint on keto but am off now to start my 1-test cycle. I wasn't on long enough (3 weeks) to really say either way, senitive or insensitive.

    Anyone know where I can find an upload link directly to the brain for this board?

    Anyways, thanks for clearing that up Timbo.
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    The most important part of that study Draven was the fact they were obese women. Given this fact they are very likey to be insulin resistant to begin with. A low carb diet will help their situation as its alreay been shown to help type II diabetics.
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    That's cool, Dra. I'm glad that we could clear things up.

    Just like my favorite clown mentioned, that fact that these are fatties indicates right away that their insulin sensitivity is awful.

    I just wanted to add to the matter that the authors of this study are making an extremely far-fetched conclusion by relating plasma insulin levels to insulin sensitivity.

    Insulin sensitivity refers to the relative amount of insulin secreted for a given load of blood glucose. That is, a person who is more sensitive to insulin will secrete less insulin for a given load of glucose, compared to another individual.

    Now, if insulin levels are measured during the ketogenic diet, I guarantee that they'll be very low. But this really has nothing to do with insulin sensitivity because you're not eating any carbs!

    Dra, as far as that upload link, you've got it right in front of you. All of us--including yourself--compose the brain of the board. I guarantee that not one individual on this board is more experienced, valuable or knowledgable than all the members as a whole.
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    Originally posted by Timbo
    I guarantee that not one individual on this board is more experienced, valuable or knowledgable than all the members as a whole.
    Yes I am.



    hehe just kiddin.....
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    hehe just kiddin
    The hell you are, you conceited bastard Just pullin' your leg, brutha. You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.

    Keep up the great work, my friend
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    Originally posted by Timbo


    The hell you are, you conceited bastard Just pullin' your leg, brutha. You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.

    Keep up the great work, my friend
    Funny thing is I might be the most modest person in real life you've ever met! Thats usually how it works though....hehe


    The King I am not! Just trying to do my part...Keep posting here Timbo. You bring a good attitude and you compliment me very well. I don't need a bigger head...LOL
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    Bobo, thanks for the oh-so kind compliments. You're a classy guy, and I have the utmost respect for you. I'll keep your head from swelling too much. Funny subject, though, because I've recently had to buy new fitted hats, as mine no longer are big enough!

    Talk about modesty, Bobo, I'm right up there with you. While this is good sometimes, it can also be detrimental. You just have to be confident and know when to crank it up.
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    For you guys that grind up your oats...I know that I had once read on Mendoza's GI site that this modified the glycemic response (i.e. amplified it). But I've been searching and searching. I could only come up with this bit:

    Particle size is also an important factor, according to a 1988 study by Heaton et al. The researchers found that the GI of wheat, maize, and oats increased from whole grains (lowest GI), cracked grains, coarse flour, to fine flour (highest GI).
    I couldn't find the actual research.

    Now, this may not actually be a dilemma for those who grind up your oats for post-workout (however, I would argue differently if this were the method of ingestion at all times of the day), as the increased glycemic response might lead to an amplified insulin response, which is desired at this time for anti-catabolic properties.
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    Just wanted to add some more reading to the list of fun. Check out this article, as it might provide some helpful and insightful info:


    Glycemic Index and Exercise Metabolism
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    Talking The clown who became king


    Originally posted by Timbo
    You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.
    The pipe dream of every Ringling Brothers employee. You just made the Bobo one happy clown!
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    Originally posted by Timbo
    For you guys that grind up your oats...I know that I had once read on Mendoza's GI site that this modified the glycemic response (i.e. amplified it). But I've been searching and searching. I couldn't find the actual research. Now, this may not actually be a dilemma for those who grind up your oats for post-workout (however, I would argue differently if this were the method of ingestion at all times of the day), as the increased glycemic response might lead to an amplified insulin response, which is desired at this time for anti-catabolic properties.
    didn't catch the studies I put up earlier Timbo?
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    Biggin, how could I overlook your knowledge bombs? How dare you accuse me of such blasphemy!

    Your posted studies covered cooked vs. raw oats, not particle size (i.e. whole-rolled vs. grinded).

    I'm looking for this Heaton study, but to no avail.
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    my bad need to read more carefully. will be looking for your Heaton **** if you can find it
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    Timbo lives up to and defines his avatar once again...<i>Here I come to save the day...</i>

    I found the Heaton study, and now all you grinders can quit holding your breath and wipe the sweat off your brow. Man, it blows to prove <i>yourself</i> wrong

    ********************
    Am J Clin Nutr 1988 Apr;47(4):675-82 Related Articles, Links


    Particle size of wheat, maize, and oat test meals: effects on plasma glucose and insulin responses and on the rate of starch digestion in vitro.

    Heaton KW, Marcus SN, Emmett PM, Bolton CH.

    University Department of Medicine, Bristol Royal Infirmary, UK.

    When normal volunteers ate isocaloric wheat-based meals, their plasma insulin responses (peak concentration and area under curve) increased stepwise: whole grains less than cracked grains less than coarse flour less than fine flour. <b><i>Insulin responses</i></b> were also greater with fine maizemeal than with whole or cracked maize grains but <b><i>were similar with whole groats, rolled oats, and fine oatmeal.</i></b> The peak-to-nadir swing of plasma glucose was greater with wheat flour than with cracked or whole grains. In vitro starch hydrolysis by pancreatic amylase was faster with decreasing particle size with all three cereals. Correlation with the in vivo data was imperfect. Oat-based meals evoked smaller glucose and insulin responses than wheat- or maize-based meals. Particle size influences the digestion rate and consequent metabolic effects of wheat and maize but not oats. The increased insulin response to finely ground flour may be relevant to the etiology of diseases associated with hyperinsulinemia and to the management of diabetes.
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    So let me get this right
    Hypothteically Work out time is 5:30 pm

    15 minutes before breakfast
    5 grams creatine
    5 grams Glutemine
    meal 1
    protein,carbs, EFAS
    1 (protein):1(carb) with 1 TBSP EFA
    500 mgs ALA
    1000 mgs ginger
    meal 2 -3
    protein and EFAS, fiber
    1000 mgs ginger

    330 10 grams glutemine
    400 EC STAck

    meal 4 preworkout meal 430
    2 scoops whey isolate with 3/4 cup oats
    500 mgs ALA ?

    with in 15 minutes
    post workout meal 1
    40 grams malot /40 grams dextrose
    40 grams whey islolate
    10 grams glutemine
    5 grams Creatine
    750 mgs ALA

    an hour and a half following
    post workout meal 2
    6 oz chicken
    6 oz yam
    Veggies
    250 ALA

    before bed time
    protein, flax, fiber

    Is this scenerio look feasible ?

    Would you take ALA with pre workout meal as well ?

    thanks

    By way john berrardi is my old training partner and good freind
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    Well the dicsussion here is about dropping the malto/dex post workout and replacing it with the oats so there would be NO high GI carbs in your day at all. Pre workout meal looks good though. Not sure on the ALA, I don't use it unless I'm cutting.
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    Originally posted by Draven
    Well the dicsussion here is about dropping the malto/dex post workout and replacing it with the oats so there would be NO high GI carbs in your day at all. Pre workout meal looks good though. Not sure on the ALA, I don't use it unless I'm cutting.
    Maybe I missed something along the thread, but if you end up dropping dex post workout how will you get your insulin level spiked for creatine uptake?
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    The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.
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    Originally posted by Bobo
    The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.
    &nbsp;

    I was just concerned a low gi carb source such as oats wouldn't spike your insulin sufficiently like dex will.&nbsp; Works for me I would prefer to drop the dex/malto.&nbsp; Although I'm still considering switching to oats for pre-workout and malto/dex post.&nbsp; Especially since I have a Shltload of malto sitting here.
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    Hardasnails said:
    By way john berrardi is my old training partner and good freind
    Sweet! JB is a very good friend of mine also, Nails. I would've thought that you would have spelled his name right though (i.e. Berardi) since you know him so well Just busting ya, brutha.

    It seems that you'd be violating some of JB's principles with your combos of fats and carbs and also fiber with flax.

    ALA with the pre and post meals will be fine, but 750mg seems high to me.
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    i guess this low gi post workout drink wouldn't be good if i wanted to get my creatine sent to my muscles quickly?
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    Explain the protein, fats, fiber rule.. I thought that Fiber slows absorption of protein and stablizes your blood sugar levels. Correct me if I'm worng Timbo I'm eager to learn as well...
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    Read "Massive Eating Principles" by John Berardi - either on t-mag.com or on JB's own website.
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    Nelson how did it go with the creatine and low GI carbs post-w?
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    Man, how did I miss this thread.


    Originally posted by Bobo
    The combination of a protein/carb shake has been shown to cause a singificant insulin spike. Its in one of the studies posted.


    Ok, I read this whole thread..and most of al the studies posted. I'm not sure I am that convinced.

    We know from other studies......that whey itself is shown to spike insulin. By removing all dex or malto and replacing it with just say oatmeal.......does this really prove that the added insulin spike that the dex or malto is not needed.
    The way I read, it most of these studies we doing testing samples 3-6 or more hours post PW shake.

    I think this really is more complicated than some here have led us to believe. The PW shake does many things as we all know. Which thing is more important........I';m not sure.....but IMO increasing glycogen synthisis, glycogen storage....as well as generally getting the body QUICKLY out of the catabolic state it is from training must surely be what is optimal.

    I feel that many people take in entirely to many carbs PW period. This may be why some have had better results (ie. less fat gain and decent recovery) from lower GI carbs. This is just my theory. If someone ingests a ton of high GI carbs........ie. way to much.....surely the resulting fat storage and insulin spike rebound and plumitting that occurs would not be optimal and could actually cause some insulin insensitivity. But on the other hand if one uses some common sense and ingests the proper amount of high GI carbs PW..........then I have to believe that gettting the body quickly out of the catabolic state must be the most important goal and focusing on one minute part of the recovery and replenishment process is short sighted and get us lost. We get lost down a path that actually deviates us from our true goal.

    Protein by itself does a decent job PW.
    Of course the addition of carbs......be them High or Low Gi will surely help.

    What we are talking about is ........which one is OPTIMAL.

    I'm staying with High GI (moderate amounts, 30-50 grams depending on LMB) until I see more convincing overall evidence.


    also.........


    Timbo,

    Do you have anything that supprts your insulin sensitivity sucks when comming off keto theory.

    You guys are great and I just love this level of discussion.



    PEACE
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    I'm with you Chi. The studies weren't enough to sway me.
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    Nor am I. Which is why I started the thread. I have to say I've since dropped my carbs to 50g PW (from 100g before ) but still use a high GI malto/dex mix in combination with 35g of whey.

    To be honest I think both ways work and that the minute differences High vs Low GI make aren't really all that important. Perhaps a little less spillage with the low GI but a quicker anti-catabloic response with high GI.

    I still find alot of the studies vary so greatly in the amount of carbs used and the methodology used in the experiment that you could prove either or to be better for some reason or another.
    Last edited by Draven; 06-04-2003 at 12:55 PM.
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    Originally posted by Draven

    I still find alot of the studies vary so greatly in the amount of carbs used and the methodology used in the experiment that you could prove either or to be better for some reason or another.
    Then do so. I've seen none that state High GI carbs increase the rate of synthesis.

    I don't mind that your not swayed but at least show me why.
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    Originally posted by scotty2
    I'm with you Chi. The studies weren't enough to sway me.
    THen I assume I would of done a better job without any studies? THats what the High GI side. No studies.
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    Originally posted by chi_town
    Man, how did I miss this thread.







    I think this really is more complicated than some here have led us to believe. The PW shake does many things as we all know. Which thing is more important........I';m not sure.....but IMO increasing glycogen synthisis, glycogen storage....as well as generally getting the body QUICKLY out of the catabolic state it is from training must surely be what is optimal.




    PEACE
    If we look at just those points, I have you covered.

    1. Increasing glycogen synthesis? Its not changed with either

    Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

    Costill DL.

    The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

    2. Glyocgen storage? Well both can do this.

    Effect of different types of high carbohydrate diets on glycogen metabolism in liver and skeletal muscle of endurance-trained rats.

    Garrido G, Guzman M, Odriozola JM.

    Department of Human Performance, National Institute of Physical Education, Madrid, Spain.

    Male Wistar rats were fed ad libitum four different diets containing fructose, sucrose, maltodextrins or starch as the source of carbohydrate (CH). One group was subjected to moderate physical training on a motor-driven treadmill for 10 weeks (trained rats). A second group received no training and acted as a control (sedentary rats). Glycogen metabolism was studied in the liver and skeletal muscle of these animals. In the sedentary rats, liver glycogen concentrations increased by 60%-90% with the administration of simple CH diets compared with complex CH diets, whereas skeletal muscle glycogen stores were not significantly affected by the diet. Physical training induced a marked decrease in the glycogen content in liver (20%-30% of the sedentary rats) and skeletal muscle (50%-80% of the sedentary rats) in animals fed simple (but not complex) CH diets. In liver this was accompanied by a two-fold increase of triacylglycerol concentrations. Compared with simple CH diets, complex CH feeding increased by 50%-150% glycogen synthase (GS) activity in liver, whereas only a slight increase in GS activity was observed in skeletal muscle. In all the animal groups, a direct relationship existed between tissue glucose 6-phosphate concentration and glycogen content (r = 0.9911 in liver, r = 0.7177 in skeletal muscle). In contrast, no relationship was evident between glycogen concentrations and either glycogen phosphorylase activity or adenosine 5'-monophosphate tissue concentration. The results from this study thus suggest that for trained rats diets containing complex CH (compared with diets containing simple CH) improve the glycogenic capacity of liver and skeletal muscle, thus enabling the adequate regeneration of glycogen stores in these two tissues.

    3. Getting the body out of catabolic state? Insulin does this, not glyocgen. Not to emtion your not that catabolic post workout due to increased GH secretions. Even if it was glyogen, the fist phase of glycogen replenishment is insulin independent, so whats the point of creating a large spike if its not needed?



    If those are your requirements, I've done it. Is it better? Nobody said that but it much less risky and overall more healthy in the long run while producing the same results. In some, the results seem better with increased energy, more fat lose witht the same LBM gains, less of a crash, etc....
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    Originally posted by Bobo


    Then do so. I've seen none that state High GI carbs increase the rate of synthesis.

    I don't mind that your not swayed but at least show me why.
    This one to start.

    Muscle glycogen storage after prolonged exercise: effect of the glycemic index of carbohydrate feedings.

    Burke LM, Collier GR, Hargreaves M.

    Department of Sports Medicine, Australian Institute of Sport, Australian Capital Territory.

    The effect of the glycemic index (GI) of postexercise carbohydrate intake on muscle glycogen storage was investigated. Five well-trained cyclists undertook an exercise trial to deplete muscle glycogen (2 h at 75% of maximal O2 uptake followed by four 30-s sprints) on two occasions, 1 wk apart. For 24 h after each trial, subjects rested and consumed a diet composed exclusively of high-carbohydrate foods, with one trial providing foods with a high GI (HI GI) and the other providing foods with a low GI (LO GI). Total carbohydrate intake over the 24 h was 10 g/kg of body mass, evenly distributed between meals eaten 0, 4, 8, and 21 h postexercise. Blood samples were drawn before exercise, immediately after exercise, immediately before each meal, and 30, 60, and 90 min post-prandially. Muscle biopsies were taken from the vastus lateralis immediately after exercise and after 24 h. When the effects of the immediate postexercise meal were excluded, the totals of the incremental glucose and insulin areas after each meal were greater (P < or = 0.05) for the HI GI meals than for the LO GI meals. The increase in muscle glycogen content after 24 h of recovery was greater (P = 0.02) with the HI GI diet (106 +/- 11.7 mmol/kg wet wt) than with the LO GI diet (71.5 +/- 6.5 mmol/kg). The results suggest that the most rapid increase in muscle glycogen content during the first 24 h of recovery is achieved by consuming foods with a high GI.
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    Originally posted by Bobo


    THen I assume I would of done a better job without any studies? THats what the High GI side. No studies.
    Dammit, Bobo. Would HAVE or would'VE.
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    LOL Scotty!

    This is one of my pet peeves. Whatever happened to proper English?
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    Sorry. I don't sit here and edit everyone one of my posts. My posts are full of grammar errors. You can never say I just cut and paste because their are too many errors.
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    Originally posted by Bobo
    Sorry. I don't sit here and edit everyone one of my posts. My posts are full of grammar errors. You can never say I just cut and paste because their are too many errors.
    I'm playing with you. I thought you did it purposely to fire me up.
  

  
 

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