[Nelson]

Just as a matter of curiosity.
How long after you have finished training do you have your first meal?

[RippedUp]

I'd be eating my first bite of chicken/turkey about 15-20 mins after my last set.

[bachovas]

Ripped, only cooked? with water right? what about dry oats? Is it just a matter of digestion or something else, the diference between dry and cooked oats?

[RippedUp]

I cook my oats the night before, let them cool, then store them in the fridge.

When comes the time to eat, I mix some pro. powder in them and it's all set. Much more refreshing than eating them hot/warm.

Cooking them fills them out with water. I don't know exactly how/if this influences the GI.

[Biggs]

yo... regarding cooking vs raw oats and GI, it seems that effects on insulin/glucose response don't differ all that much between the two...(see bold areas below):
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Metabolic responses to starch in oat and wheat products. On the importance of food structure, incomplete gelatinization or presence of viscous dietary fibre.

Granfeldt Y, Hagander B, Bjorck I.

Department of Applied Nutrition and Food Chemistry, University of Lund, Sweden.

OBJECTIVE: Evaluate the importance of incomplete gelatinization, food structure and presence of viscous dietary fibre for the postprandial glycaemic and insulinaemic responses to oat and wheat products. DESIGN: Three common breakfast meals were tested, 'raw' rolled oats (muesli), boiled rolled oats (oat porridge) and white wheat bread. Boiled intact oat and wheat kernels (kernel porridges) were also included. For comparison, glycaemic indices (GIs) were calculated both from analysis of capillary and venous blood samples. SETTING: The study was performed at the research laboratory, Dalby Health Sciences Centre (primary care). SUBJECTS: Nine healthy male volunteers between 65 and 70 years of age participated in the study. RESULTS: The rolled oats and oat porridge elicited high metabolic responses. No differences in the glycaemic and insulinaemic indices (IIs) were seen between these products and white wheat bread. In contrast, the kernel porridges produced low glucose and insulin responses. No differences were obtained in GI values whether based on capillary or venous blood. However, with some products capillary blood allowed smaller differences to be detected. CONCLUSIONS: Neither incomplete gelatinization in rolled oats nor naturally occurring viscous dietary fibre in oats affect postprandial glycaemia, whereas enclosure of intact kernels significantly blunt metabolic responses.
--------------
Postprandial glucose and insulin responses to rolled oats ingested raw, cooked or as a mixture with raisins in normal subjects and type 2 diabetic patients.

Rasmussen O, Winther E, Hermansen K.

Second University Clinic of Internal Medicine, Aarhus Kommune-hospital, Denmark.

Cooking and processing of food may account for differences in blood glucose and insulin responses to food with similar contents of carbohydrate, fat, and protein. The present study was carried out to see if short-term cooking of rolled oats caused an increase in blood glucose. Furthermore, we wanted to see if dried fruit could substitute for some of the starch without deterioration of the postprandial blood glucose response. We therefore compared the blood glucose and insulin responses to three isocaloric, carbohydrate equivalent meals in 11 normal subjects and 9 Type 2 diabetic patients. Meals composed either of raw rolled oats, oatmeal porridge or a mixture of raw rolled oats with raisins were served. In normal subjects, the three meals produced similar glucose (75 +/- 22, 51 +/- 16 and 71 +/- 23 (+/- SE) mmol l-1 180 min, respectively) and insulin response curves (3160 +/- 507, 2985 +/- 632 and 2775 +/- 398 mU l-1 180 min, respectively). Type 2 diabetic patients also showed similar postprandial blood glucose (515 +/- 95, 531 +/- 83 and 409 +/- 46 mmol l-1 180 min, respectively) and insulin (5121 +/- 850, 6434 +/- 927 and 6021 +/- 974 mU l-1 180 min, respectively) responses to the three meals. Thus short-term cooking of rolled oats has no deleterious effect on blood glucose and insulin responses, and substitution of 25% of the starch meal with simple sugars (raisins) did not affect the blood glucose or insulin responses.
-------------


what do you think?

[NPursuit]

[quote]Originally posted by RippedUp
[b]Yes, no problem with that. Oatmeal is about 66% carbs.
Add the creatine to the shake, or drink it with water. It doesn't matter.

Ripped up do you or could you grind up the oatmeal before cooking it to add to a shake?  Not sure I want to ingest whole oats?

 

BTW great thread guys got me changing my strategy.  I'm getting ready to hit my cutting cycle, and would like to toss out the malto.

[RippedUp]

N'Pursuit

There's no point of grinding the oats before cooking since they will get soft and easy to eat.

Use a blender if you want to put them in a shake..

A blender should be a bber's best friend

[Kruger]

[quote]Originally posted by N'Pursuit
[b]

Originally posted by RippedUp
Yes, no problem with that. Oatmeal is about 66% carbs.
Add the creatine to the shake, or drink it with water. It doesn't matter.

Ripped up do you or could you grind up the oatmeal before cooking it to add to a shake?  Not sure I want to ingest whole oats?

 

BTW great thread guys got me changing my strategy.  I'm getting ready to hit my cutting cycle, and would like to toss out the malto.

I grind mine up with a coffee grider. Makes 2 cups of wholes look like a 1/2 a cup


I find it easier to mix when I grind it up into a powder but thats my personal preference.

[NPursuit]

I think I will try both ways guys. Thanks!

Do you think 2 cups is a good serving per shake? Keep in mind I'm cutting but my BMR is around 2950.

[RippedUp]

There is no magic quantity number.

Figure out how much carbs you want to eat per day, and spread them between morning and around WO time.

100g of oatmeal have around 67g of carbs.

[Draven]

N'Pursuit, 2 cups????? How the heck would you get that much to dissolve in a shake? Wouldn't that make it like mud?

How do you guys find the texture and taste putting oats in a shake?

[NPursuit]

Draven just going by Bobo's statement. Sounded a little much, but I've never thrown oats in my shakes. I've always been pretty simple with my shakes. Whey or blend, malto, glutamine.

[Timbo]

Try this out for your post-workout meal:

Fat-Free Cottage Cheese
Protein Powder
Oats
Banana

*Quantities vary accordingly. Freeze this for about an hour and it's like cheesecake.

Okay, now onto business.

Draven said:

It would make sense that a low GI diet would increase insulin sensitivity like a zero carb diet does when on a keto.

A low GI diet may very well enhance insulin sensitivity. But a ketogenic diet? Not hardly. Ask anyone of the guys around here how their glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity is coming off keto. Anything but sensitive.

Draven said:

To me this only proves that the addition of protein to a post workout shake has no effect on glycogen resysnthesis.

Like Bobo already directed us, this is a flawed statement. The Ivy study is basically the standard. Here's another one from the group to add to it:

**********************************
J Strength Cond Res 2003 Feb;17(1):12-9


Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance.

Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL.

Cardiovascular Research Institute, University of North Texas, Health Science Center at Fort Worth, Texas 76107, USA. johnivy@mail.utexas.edu

The restorative capacities of a high carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO) beverage containing electrolytes and a traditional 6% carbohydrate-electrolyte sports beverage (SB) were assessed after glycogen-depleting exercise. Postexercise ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage, in comparison with the SB, resulted in a 55% greater time to exhaustion during a subsequent exercise bout at 85% maximum oxygen consumption (VO(2)max). The greater recovery after the intake of the CHO-PRO beverage could be because of a greater rate of muscle glycogen storage. Therefore, a second study was designed to investigate the effects of after exercise CHO-PRO and SB supplements on muscle glycogen restoration. Eight endurance-trained cyclists (VO(2)max = 62.1 +/- 2.2 ml.kg(-1) body wt.min(-1)) performed 2 trials consisting of a 2-hour glycogen-depletion ride at 65-75% VO(2)max. Carbohydrate-protein (355 ml; approximately 0.8 g carbohydrate (CHO).kg(-1) body wt and approximately 0.2 g protein.kg(-1) body wt) or SB (355 ml; approximately 0.3 g CHO.kg(-1) body wt) was provided immediately and 2 hours after exercise. Trials were randomized and separated by 7-15 days. Ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage resulted in a 17% greater plasma glucose response, a 92% greater insulin response, and a 128% greater storage of muscle glycogen (159 +/- 18 and 69 +/- 32 micromol.g(-1) dry weight for CHO-PRO and SB, respectively) compared with the SB (p < 0.05). These findings indicate that the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggest that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement.

****************************

Here's another for the fun of it:

Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11


Maximizing postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures.

van Loon LJ, Saris WH, Kruijshoop M, Wagenmakers AJ.

From the Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands. L.vanLoon@hb.unimaas.nl

BACKGROUND: Postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis is an important factor in determining the time needed to recover from prolonged exercise. OBJECTIVE: This study investigated whether an increase in carbohydrate intake, ingestion of a mixture of protein hydrolysate and amino acids in combination with carbohydrate, or both results in higher postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis rates than does ingestion of 0.8 g*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) carbohydrate, provided at 30-min intervals. DESIGN: Eight trained cyclists visited the laboratory 3 times, during which a control beverage and 2 other beverages were tested. After the subjects participated in a strict glycogen-depletion protocol, muscle biopsy samples were collected. The subjects received a beverage every 30 min to ensure ingestion of 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (Carb trial), 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) plus 0.4 g wheat protein hydrolysate plus free leucine and phenylalanine*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (proven to be highly insulinotropic; Carb + Pro trial), or 1.2 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (Carb + Carb trial). After 5 h, a second biopsy was taken. RESULTS: Plasma insulin responses in the Carb + Pro and Carb + Carb trials were higher than those in the Carb trial (88 +/- 17% and 46 +/- 18%; P < 0.05). Muscle glycogen synthesis was higher in both trials than in the Carb trial (35. 4 +/- 5.1 and 44.8 +/- 6.8 compared with 16.6 +/- 7.8 micromol glycosol units*g dry wt(-)(1)*h(-)(1), respectively; P < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Addition of a mixture of protein hydrolysate and amino acids to a carbohydrate-containing solution (at an intake of 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1)) can stimulate glycogen synthesis. However, glycogen synthesis can also be accelerated by increasing carbohydrate intake (0.4 g*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1)) when supplements are provided at 30-min intervals.
**************************

Admittedly, I find this topic very interesting. I'm experimenting with that approach that seems to be highly advised and acceptable here. I know John Berardi is working on some data on recovery parameters with Surge.

When the issue of insulin sensitivity comes up, I really don't think you should be concerned when ingesting the high GI carbs. As an active individual, following an acute bout of resistance and/or aerobic training, you have a heightened state of insulin sensitivity.

[Draven]

Originally posted by Timbo
A low GI diet may very well enhance insulin sensitivity. But a ketogenic diet? Not hardly. Ask anyone of the guys around here how their glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity is coming off keto. Anything but sensitive.

Hmm, well perhaps I'm misreading this but not according to Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., D’Alessio, D.A., et al., "Effects of a Low Carbohydrate Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors", College of Nursing and College of Medicine, University of Cincinnati.

Summary:

Popular weight loss diets, such as the low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet, are adopted by millions of Americans each year. However, rigorous, well-controlled studies of their efficacy and safety are limited. Thirty-four mildly obese women (BMI of 30-34 kg/m2) were recruited for a six-month clinical study to investigate the effects of a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet on body weight and cardiovascular risk factors. The study included a three-month weight loss intervention followed by a three-month follow-up period during which no intervention occurred. Subjects were randomly assigned to either an ad libitum low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet that restricted carbohydrate intake to less than 10% of kcal, or a control diet with modest caloric restriction (1200-1500 kcal/d) and recommended distributions of fat (30% of kcal) and carbohydrate (55% of kcal) conforming to recommendations of the American Heart Association. Twenty-six subjects (76%) completed the trial, with an equal number of dropouts from each diet group. Mean weight loss was significantly greater in the ketogenic diet group than in the control diet group at three months (8.0+1.0 vs. 4.4+1.1 kg; p<0.02) and at six months (7.9+1.4 vs. 3.2+1.3 kg; p<0.02). As measured by DEXA scans, the mean percentage body fat decreased in both groups at three months (1.7+.46 vs. 1.3+.48) and at six months (2.2+.58 vs. .74+.49). Blood pressure, total cholesterol, and LDL-cholesterol decreased, and HDL-cholesterol increased, in both groups. Plasma insulin levels decreased in both groups suggesting an improvement in insulin sensitivity. Triglyceride levels decreased significantly more in the ketogenic diet group than in the control diet group (65.3+17.2 vs. 15.2+8.2 mg/dl; p<0.02) at three months. These results indicate that for short periods of time, a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet is efficacious in causing weight loss and has no deleterious effects on cardiovascular risk factors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------


Now I know this only suggests the fact and doesn't absolutely confirm sensitivity but this study is what gave me that impression.

[Timbo]

Draven, that's a valant effort, my friend, but you've got to understand the physiology before quoting and believing something like that. I'll explain in just a second.

I, myself have never partaken in a ketogenic diet, but I guarantee that if you ask any of the other regular low-carb roamers around here, they will tell you that coming off a prolonged ketogenic diet, their insulin sensivitiy and glucose tolerance sucks.

Now, back to the matter at hand. Of course plasma insulin levels dropped, they were on a ketogenic diet for six months! During this time, they consumed no more than 10% of total calories. This abstract doesn't mention absolute calories, but it does say that caloric restriction was in the range of 1200-1500 kcals/day. Considering these are women, they're probably not dieting on more than 1000 kcals/day (though, I'd like to know for sure). Therefore, carb intake is probably roughly around 25g/day. Surprise, ketogenic diet!

With a prolonged ketogenic diet, which six-months definitely qualifies as prolonged, the body will switch into a relative fat-burning mode where insulin levels and blood glucose are always at baseline. However, before these fatties got on this type of diet (i.e. which would represent pre-testing and dieting values), they were in a state in which their blood glucose and insulin levels were like a roller coaster ride at Six Flags Themeparks. They were in a sugar-burning state.

Actually, Draven, this is an excellent study to pull up. It shows the efficacy of a low-carb diet for obese populations, diabetic populations and patients with a heightened risk for CVD. Keep this one in your pocket.

The bottom line, though, upon returning to a normal, mixed diet, one's sensitivity to insulin and tolerance to glucose will be hampered.

[Draven]

I wasn't really trying to dispute what you said, rather just showing you what lead me to believe that you would gain sensitivity from a keto diet.

I myself just tried a short stint on keto but am off now to start my 1-test cycle. I wasn't on long enough (3 weeks) to really say either way, senitive or insensitive.

Anyone know where I can find an upload link directly to the brain for this board?

Anyways, thanks for clearing that up Timbo.