Low GI Post workout drink, really???

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  1. Nelson
    Nelson's Avatar

    One last ?


    Just as a matter of curiosity.
    How long after you have finished training do you have your first meal?


  2. I'd be eating my first bite of chicken/turkey about 15-20 mins after my last set.
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  3. Ripped, only cooked? with water right? what about dry oats? Is it just a matter of digestion or something else, the diference between dry and cooked oats?

  4. I cook my oats the night before, let them cool, then store them in the fridge.

    When comes the time to eat, I mix some pro. powder in them and it's all set. Much more refreshing than eating them hot/warm.

    Cooking them fills them out with water. I don't know exactly how/if this influences the GI.

  5. yo... regarding cooking vs raw oats and GI, it seems that effects on insulin/glucose response don't differ all that much between the two...(see bold areas below):
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    Metabolic responses to starch in oat and wheat products. On the importance of food structure, incomplete gelatinization or presence of viscous dietary fibre.

    Granfeldt Y, Hagander B, Bjorck I.

    Department of Applied Nutrition and Food Chemistry, University of Lund, Sweden.

    OBJECTIVE: Evaluate the importance of incomplete gelatinization, food structure and presence of viscous dietary fibre for the postprandial glycaemic and insulinaemic responses to oat and wheat products. DESIGN: Three common breakfast meals were tested, 'raw' rolled oats (muesli), boiled rolled oats (oat porridge) and white wheat bread. Boiled intact oat and wheat kernels (kernel porridges) were also included. For comparison, glycaemic indices (GIs) were calculated both from analysis of capillary and venous blood samples. SETTING: The study was performed at the research laboratory, Dalby Health Sciences Centre (primary care). SUBJECTS: Nine healthy male volunteers between 65 and 70 years of age participated in the study. RESULTS: The rolled oats and oat porridge elicited high metabolic responses. No differences in the glycaemic and insulinaemic indices (IIs) were seen between these products and white wheat bread. In contrast, the kernel porridges produced low glucose and insulin responses. No differences were obtained in GI values whether based on capillary or venous blood. However, with some products capillary blood allowed smaller differences to be detected. CONCLUSIONS: Neither incomplete gelatinization in rolled oats nor naturally occurring viscous dietary fibre in oats affect postprandial glycaemia, whereas enclosure of intact kernels significantly blunt metabolic responses.
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    Postprandial glucose and insulin responses to rolled oats ingested raw, cooked or as a mixture with raisins in normal subjects and type 2 diabetic patients.

    Rasmussen O, Winther E, Hermansen K.

    Second University Clinic of Internal Medicine, Aarhus Kommune-hospital, Denmark.

    Cooking and processing of food may account for differences in blood glucose and insulin responses to food with similar contents of carbohydrate, fat, and protein. The present study was carried out to see if short-term cooking of rolled oats caused an increase in blood glucose. Furthermore, we wanted to see if dried fruit could substitute for some of the starch without deterioration of the postprandial blood glucose response. We therefore compared the blood glucose and insulin responses to three isocaloric, carbohydrate equivalent meals in 11 normal subjects and 9 Type 2 diabetic patients. Meals composed either of raw rolled oats, oatmeal porridge or a mixture of raw rolled oats with raisins were served. In normal subjects, the three meals produced similar glucose (75 +/- 22, 51 +/- 16 and 71 +/- 23 (+/- SE) mmol l-1 180 min, respectively) and insulin response curves (3160 +/- 507, 2985 +/- 632 and 2775 +/- 398 mU l-1 180 min, respectively). Type 2 diabetic patients also showed similar postprandial blood glucose (515 +/- 95, 531 +/- 83 and 409 +/- 46 mmol l-1 180 min, respectively) and insulin (5121 +/- 850, 6434 +/- 927 and 6021 +/- 974 mU l-1 180 min, respectively) responses to the three meals. Thus short-term cooking of rolled oats has no deleterious effect on blood glucose and insulin responses, and substitution of 25% of the starch meal with simple sugars (raisins) did not affect the blood glucose or insulin responses.
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    what do you think?
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  6. [QUOTE]Originally posted by RippedUp
    [B]Yes, no problem with that. Oatmeal is about 66% carbs.
    Add the creatine to the shake, or drink it with water. It doesn't matter.

    Ripped up do you or could you grind up the oatmeal before cooking it to add to a shake?  Not sure I want to ingest whole oats?

     

    BTW great thread guys got me changing my strategy.  I'm getting ready to hit my cutting cycle, and would like to toss out the malto.

  7. N'Pursuit

    There's no point of grinding the oats before cooking since they will get soft and easy to eat.

    Use a blender if you want to put them in a shake..

    A blender should be a bber's best friend

  8. [QUOTE]Originally posted by N'Pursuit
    [B]
    Originally posted by RippedUp
    Yes, no problem with that. Oatmeal is about 66% carbs.
    Add the creatine to the shake, or drink it with water. It doesn't matter.

    Ripped up do you or could you grind up the oatmeal before cooking it to add to a shake?  Not sure I want to ingest whole oats?

     

    BTW great thread guys got me changing my strategy.  I'm getting ready to hit my cutting cycle, and would like to toss out the malto.
    I grind mine up with a coffee grider. Makes 2 cups of wholes look like a 1/2 a cup


    I find it easier to mix when I grind it up into a powder but thats my personal preference.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  9. I think I will try both ways guys. Thanks!

    Do you think 2 cups is a good serving per shake? Keep in mind I'm cutting but my BMR is around 2950.

  10. There is no magic quantity number.

    Figure out how much carbs you want to eat per day, and spread them between morning and around WO time.

    100g of oatmeal have around 67g of carbs.

  11. N'Pursuit, 2 cups????? How the heck would you get that much to dissolve in a shake? Wouldn't that make it like mud?

    How do you guys find the texture and taste putting oats in a shake?

  12. Draven just going by Bobo's statement. Sounded a little much, but I've never thrown oats in my shakes. I've always been pretty simple with my shakes. Whey or blend, malto, glutamine.

  13. Try this out for your post-workout meal:

    Fat-Free Cottage Cheese
    Protein Powder
    Oats
    Banana

    *Quantities vary accordingly. Freeze this for about an hour and it's like cheesecake.

    Okay, now onto business.

    Draven said:
    It would make sense that a low GI diet would increase insulin sensitivity like a zero carb diet does when on a keto.
    A low GI diet may very well enhance insulin sensitivity. But a ketogenic diet? Not hardly. Ask anyone of the guys around here how their glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity is coming off keto. Anything but sensitive.

    Draven said:
    To me this only proves that the addition of protein to a post workout shake has no effect on glycogen resysnthesis.
    Like Bobo already directed us, this is a flawed statement. The Ivy study is basically the standard. Here's another one from the group to add to it:

    ****************************** ****
    J Strength Cond Res 2003 Feb;17(1):12-9


    Effects of recovery beverages on glycogen restoration and endurance exercise performance.

    Williams MB, Raven PB, Fogt DL, Ivy JL.

    Cardiovascular Research Institute, University of North Texas, Health Science Center at Fort Worth, Texas 76107, USA. [email protected]

    The restorative capacities of a high carbohydrate-protein (CHO-PRO) beverage containing electrolytes and a traditional 6% carbohydrate-electrolyte sports beverage (SB) were assessed after glycogen-depleting exercise. Postexercise ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage, in comparison with the SB, resulted in a 55% greater time to exhaustion during a subsequent exercise bout at 85% maximum oxygen consumption (VO(2)max). The greater recovery after the intake of the CHO-PRO beverage could be because of a greater rate of muscle glycogen storage. Therefore, a second study was designed to investigate the effects of after exercise CHO-PRO and SB supplements on muscle glycogen restoration. Eight endurance-trained cyclists (VO(2)max = 62.1 +/- 2.2 ml.kg(-1) body wt.min(-1)) performed 2 trials consisting of a 2-hour glycogen-depletion ride at 65-75% VO(2)max. Carbohydrate-protein (355 ml; approximately 0.8 g carbohydrate (CHO).kg(-1) body wt and approximately 0.2 g protein.kg(-1) body wt) or SB (355 ml; approximately 0.3 g CHO.kg(-1) body wt) was provided immediately and 2 hours after exercise. Trials were randomized and separated by 7-15 days. Ingestion of the CHO-PRO beverage resulted in a 17% greater plasma glucose response, a 92% greater insulin response, and a 128% greater storage of muscle glycogen (159 +/- 18 and 69 +/- 32 micromol.g(-1) dry weight for CHO-PRO and SB, respectively) compared with the SB (p < 0.05). These findings indicate that the rate of recovery is coupled with the rate of muscle glycogen replenishment and suggest that recovery supplements should be consumed to optimize muscle glycogen synthesis as well as fluid replacement.

    ****************************

    Here's another for the fun of it:

    Am J Clin Nutr 2000 Jul;72(1):106-11


    Maximizing postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis: carbohydrate supplementation and the application of amino acid or protein hydrolysate mixtures.

    van Loon LJ, Saris WH, Kruijshoop M, Wagenmakers AJ.

    From the Nutrition and Toxicology Research Institute Maastricht (NUTRIM), Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, Maastricht, The Netherlands. [email protected]

    BACKGROUND: Postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis is an important factor in determining the time needed to recover from prolonged exercise. OBJECTIVE: This study investigated whether an increase in carbohydrate intake, ingestion of a mixture of protein hydrolysate and amino acids in combination with carbohydrate, or both results in higher postexercise muscle glycogen synthesis rates than does ingestion of 0.8 g*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) carbohydrate, provided at 30-min intervals. DESIGN: Eight trained cyclists visited the laboratory 3 times, during which a control beverage and 2 other beverages were tested. After the subjects participated in a strict glycogen-depletion protocol, muscle biopsy samples were collected. The subjects received a beverage every 30 min to ensure ingestion of 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (Carb trial), 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) plus 0.4 g wheat protein hydrolysate plus free leucine and phenylalanine*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (proven to be highly insulinotropic; Carb + Pro trial), or 1.2 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1) (Carb + Carb trial). After 5 h, a second biopsy was taken. RESULTS: Plasma insulin responses in the Carb + Pro and Carb + Carb trials were higher than those in the Carb trial (88 +/- 17% and 46 +/- 18%; P < 0.05). Muscle glycogen synthesis was higher in both trials than in the Carb trial (35. 4 +/- 5.1 and 44.8 +/- 6.8 compared with 16.6 +/- 7.8 micromol glycosol units*g dry wt(-)(1)*h(-)(1), respectively; P < 0.05). CONCLUSIONS: Addition of a mixture of protein hydrolysate and amino acids to a carbohydrate-containing solution (at an intake of 0.8 g carbohydrate*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1)) can stimulate glycogen synthesis. However, glycogen synthesis can also be accelerated by increasing carbohydrate intake (0.4 g*kg(-)(1)*h(-)(1)) when supplements are provided at 30-min intervals.
    **************************

    Admittedly, I find this topic very interesting. I'm experimenting with that approach that seems to be highly advised and acceptable here. I know John Berardi is working on some data on recovery parameters with Surge.

    When the issue of insulin sensitivity comes up, I really don't think you should be concerned when ingesting the high GI carbs. As an active individual, following an acute bout of resistance and/or aerobic training, you have a heightened state of insulin sensitivity.

  14. Originally posted by Timbo
    A low GI diet may very well enhance insulin sensitivity. But a ketogenic diet? Not hardly. Ask anyone of the guys around here how their glucose tolerance and insulin sensitivity is coming off keto. Anything but sensitive.
    Hmm, well perhaps I'm misreading this but not according to Brehm, B.J., Seeley, R.J., D’Alessio, D.A., et al., "Effects of a Low Carbohydrate Diet on Body Weight and Cardiovascular Risk Factors", College of Nursing and College of Medicine, University of Cincinnati.

    Summary:

    Popular weight loss diets, such as the low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet, are adopted by millions of Americans each year. However, rigorous, well-controlled studies of their efficacy and safety are limited. Thirty-four mildly obese women (BMI of 30-34 kg/m2) were recruited for a six-month clinical study to investigate the effects of a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet on body weight and cardiovascular risk factors. The study included a three-month weight loss intervention followed by a three-month follow-up period during which no intervention occurred. Subjects were randomly assigned to either an ad libitum low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet that restricted carbohydrate intake to less than 10% of kcal, or a control diet with modest caloric restriction (1200-1500 kcal/d) and recommended distributions of fat (30% of kcal) and carbohydrate (55% of kcal) conforming to recommendations of the American Heart Association. Twenty-six subjects (76%) completed the trial, with an equal number of dropouts from each diet group. Mean weight loss was significantly greater in the ketogenic diet group than in the control diet group at three months (8.0+1.0 vs. 4.4+1.1 kg; p<0.02) and at six months (7.9+1.4 vs. 3.2+1.3 kg; p<0.02). As measured by DEXA scans, the mean percentage body fat decreased in both groups at three months (1.7+.46 vs. 1.3+.48) and at six months (2.2+.58 vs. .74+.49). Blood pressure, total cholesterol, and LDL-cholesterol decreased, and HDL-cholesterol increased, in both groups. Plasma insulin levels decreased in both groups suggesting an improvement in insulin sensitivity. Triglyceride levels decreased significantly more in the ketogenic diet group than in the control diet group (65.3+17.2 vs. 15.2+8.2 mg/dl; p<0.02) at three months. These results indicate that for short periods of time, a low carbohydrate, ketogenic diet is efficacious in causing weight loss and has no deleterious effects on cardiovascular risk factors.
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    Now I know this only suggests the fact and doesn't absolutely confirm sensitivity but this study is what gave me that impression.

  15. Draven, that's a valant effort, my friend, but you've got to understand the physiology before quoting and believing something like that. I'll explain in just a second.

    I, myself have never partaken in a ketogenic diet, but I guarantee that if you ask any of the other regular low-carb roamers around here, they will tell you that coming off a prolonged ketogenic diet, their insulin sensivitiy and glucose tolerance sucks.

    Now, back to the matter at hand. Of course plasma insulin levels dropped, they were on a ketogenic diet for six months! During this time, they consumed no more than 10% of total calories. This abstract doesn't mention absolute calories, but it does say that caloric restriction was in the range of 1200-1500 kcals/day. Considering these are women, they're probably not dieting on more than 1000 kcals/day (though, I'd like to know for sure). Therefore, carb intake is probably roughly around 25g/day. Surprise, ketogenic diet!

    With a prolonged ketogenic diet, which six-months definitely qualifies as prolonged, the body will switch into a relative fat-burning mode where insulin levels and blood glucose are always at baseline. However, before these fatties got on this type of diet (i.e. which would represent pre-testing and dieting values), they were in a state in which their blood glucose and insulin levels were like a roller coaster ride at Six Flags Themeparks. They were in a sugar-burning state.

    Actually, Draven, this is an excellent study to pull up. It shows the efficacy of a low-carb diet for obese populations, diabetic populations and patients with a heightened risk for CVD. Keep this one in your pocket.

    The bottom line, though, upon returning to a normal, mixed diet, one's sensitivity to insulin and tolerance to glucose will be hampered.

  16. I wasn't really trying to dispute what you said, rather just showing you what lead me to believe that you would gain sensitivity from a keto diet.

    I myself just tried a short stint on keto but am off now to start my 1-test cycle. I wasn't on long enough (3 weeks) to really say either way, senitive or insensitive.

    Anyone know where I can find an upload link directly to the brain for this board?

    Anyways, thanks for clearing that up Timbo.

  17. The most important part of that study Draven was the fact they were obese women. Given this fact they are very likey to be insulin resistant to begin with. A low carb diet will help their situation as its alreay been shown to help type II diabetics.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  18. That's cool, Dra. I'm glad that we could clear things up.

    Just like my favorite clown mentioned, that fact that these are fatties indicates right away that their insulin sensitivity is awful.

    I just wanted to add to the matter that the authors of this study are making an extremely far-fetched conclusion by relating plasma insulin levels to insulin sensitivity.

    Insulin sensitivity refers to the relative amount of insulin secreted for a given load of blood glucose. That is, a person who is more sensitive to insulin will secrete less insulin for a given load of glucose, compared to another individual.

    Now, if insulin levels are measured during the ketogenic diet, I guarantee that they'll be very low. But this really has nothing to do with insulin sensitivity because you're not eating any carbs!

    Dra, as far as that upload link, you've got it right in front of you. All of us--including yourself--compose the brain of the board. I guarantee that not one individual on this board is more experienced, valuable or knowledgable than all the members as a whole.

  19. Originally posted by Timbo
    I guarantee that not one individual on this board is more experienced, valuable or knowledgable than all the members as a whole.
    Yes I am.



    hehe just kiddin.....
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  20. hehe just kiddin
    The hell you are, you conceited bastard Just pullin' your leg, brutha. You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.

    Keep up the great work, my friend

  21. Originally posted by Timbo


    The hell you are, you conceited bastard Just pullin' your leg, brutha. You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.

    Keep up the great work, my friend
    Funny thing is I might be the most modest person in real life you've ever met! Thats usually how it works though....hehe


    The King I am not! Just trying to do my part...Keep posting here Timbo. You bring a good attitude and you compliment me very well. I don't need a bigger head...LOL
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  22. Bobo, thanks for the oh-so kind compliments. You're a classy guy, and I have the utmost respect for you. I'll keep your head from swelling too much. Funny subject, though, because I've recently had to buy new fitted hats, as mine no longer are big enough!

    Talk about modesty, Bobo, I'm right up there with you. While this is good sometimes, it can also be detrimental. You just have to be confident and know when to crank it up.

  23. For you guys that grind up your oats...I know that I had once read on Mendoza's GI site that this modified the glycemic response (i.e. amplified it). But I've been searching and searching. I could only come up with this bit:

    Particle size is also an important factor, according to a 1988 study by Heaton et al. The researchers found that the GI of wheat, maize, and oats increased from whole grains (lowest GI), cracked grains, coarse flour, to fine flour (highest GI).
    I couldn't find the actual research.

    Now, this may not actually be a dilemma for those who grind up your oats for post-workout (however, I would argue differently if this were the method of ingestion at all times of the day), as the increased glycemic response might lead to an amplified insulin response, which is desired at this time for anti-catabolic properties.

  24. Just wanted to add some more reading to the list of fun. Check out this article, as it might provide some helpful and insightful info:


    Glycemic Index and Exercise Metabolism
  25. Talking The clown who became king


    Originally posted by Timbo
    You are the King, and you know it. But even the King needs his lowly peasants from time to time.
    The pipe dream of every Ringling Brothers employee. You just made the Bobo one happy clown!

  26. Originally posted by Timbo
    For you guys that grind up your oats...I know that I had once read on Mendoza's GI site that this modified the glycemic response (i.e. amplified it). But I've been searching and searching. I couldn't find the actual research. Now, this may not actually be a dilemma for those who grind up your oats for post-workout (however, I would argue differently if this were the method of ingestion at all times of the day), as the increased glycemic response might lead to an amplified insulin response, which is desired at this time for anti-catabolic properties.
    didn't catch the studies I put up earlier Timbo?

  27. Biggin, how could I overlook your knowledge bombs? How dare you accuse me of such blasphemy!

    Your posted studies covered cooked vs. raw oats, not particle size (i.e. whole-rolled vs. grinded).

    I'm looking for this Heaton study, but to no avail.

  28. my bad need to read more carefully. will be looking for your Heaton **** if you can find it

  29. Timbo lives up to and defines his avatar once again...<i>Here I come to save the day...</i>

    I found the Heaton study, and now all you grinders can quit holding your breath and wipe the sweat off your brow. Man, it blows to prove <i>yourself</i> wrong

    ********************
    Am J Clin Nutr 1988 Apr;47(4):675-82 Related Articles, Links


    Particle size of wheat, maize, and oat test meals: effects on plasma glucose and insulin responses and on the rate of starch digestion in vitro.

    Heaton KW, Marcus SN, Emmett PM, Bolton CH.

    University Department of Medicine, Bristol Royal Infirmary, UK.

    When normal volunteers ate isocaloric wheat-based meals, their plasma insulin responses (peak concentration and area under curve) increased stepwise: whole grains less than cracked grains less than coarse flour less than fine flour. <b><i>Insulin responses</i></b> were also greater with fine maizemeal than with whole or cracked maize grains but <b><i>were similar with whole groats, rolled oats, and fine oatmeal.</i></b> The peak-to-nadir swing of plasma glucose was greater with wheat flour than with cracked or whole grains. In vitro starch hydrolysis by pancreatic amylase was faster with decreasing particle size with all three cereals. Correlation with the in vivo data was imperfect. Oat-based meals evoked smaller glucose and insulin responses than wheat- or maize-based meals. Particle size influences the digestion rate and consequent metabolic effects of wheat and maize but not oats. The increased insulin response to finely ground flour may be relevant to the etiology of diseases associated with hyperinsulinemia and to the management of diabetes.

  30. So let me get this right
    Hypothteically Work out time is 5:30 pm

    15 minutes before breakfast
    5 grams creatine
    5 grams Glutemine
    meal 1
    protein,carbs, EFAS
    1 (protein):1(carb) with 1 TBSP EFA
    500 mgs ALA
    1000 mgs ginger
    meal 2 -3
    protein and EFAS, fiber
    1000 mgs ginger

    330 10 grams glutemine
    400 EC STAck

    meal 4 preworkout meal 430
    2 scoops whey isolate with 3/4 cup oats
    500 mgs ALA ?

    with in 15 minutes
    post workout meal 1
    40 grams malot /40 grams dextrose
    40 grams whey islolate
    10 grams glutemine
    5 grams Creatine
    750 mgs ALA

    an hour and a half following
    post workout meal 2
    6 oz chicken
    6 oz yam
    Veggies
    250 ALA

    before bed time
    protein, flax, fiber

    Is this scenerio look feasible ?

    Would you take ALA with pre workout meal as well ?

    thanks

    By way john berrardi is my old training partner and good freind
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