Controling Hormones while cutting

[Giantz11]

Ok, feel free to flame me to all hell but I have a few questions in regards to manipulating ones hormones.

I'm starting to think that by manipulating insulin/glucagon through macro manipulation is the best way to under go body comp changes.

So here are my questions!

If I try lowering my insulin levels with the use of Pro/Fat meals all day (Until PWO of course), is this long enough to acomplish the release of Glucagon?

And in turn if I have glucagon levels running higher than insulin levels will this be enough to promote the release of HSL and promote lipolysis during the day?

My last thought is would maintaining a positive nitrogen balance be enough to combat the potential catabolic effects of glucagon?

I have been reading texts regaurding the endocrine pancreas but the question I still cannot seem to figure out!

[Giantz11]

Just to add to what I stated before. I know that Macro manipulation is by far the best way available to under go body comp changes, its just now I starting to see the bigger picture in terms of manipulation your hormones!

[John Smeton]

i have nothign to add. I just want to follow this thread so i can just type in my name and find the thread .

intresting stuff

[Dwight Schrute]

Ok, feel free to flame me to all hell but I have a few questions in regards to manipulating ones hormones.

I'm starting to think that by manipulating insulin/glucagon through macro manipulation is the best way to under go body comp changes.

So here are my questions!

If I try lowering my insulin levels with the use of Pro/Fat meals all day (Until PWO of course), is this long enough to acomplish the release of Glucagon?

!

You mine as well stop right here. Protein/fat meals cause insulin release.

"There are some instances, however, where a food has a low glycemic value but a high insulin index value. This applies to dairy foods and to some highly palatable energy-dense "indulgence foods." Some foods (such as meat, fish, and eggs) that contain no carbohydrate, just protein and fat (and essentially have a GI value of zero), still stimulate significant rises in blood insulin."


All you need is to control insulin/glucose levels and that is done by eliminating large spikes/releases. Low/Mod GI carbohydrates will do this.

The effects of insulin/glucagon are more dependent on total calories rather than just manipulation of macro's. The best overall effects happen when a happy medium is achieved within the caloric range you prefer (whether you are bulking, cutting). Shifting from one extreme to the other will probably cause problems down the line. If you keep glucogen high, chances are cortisol is high and gluconeogenesis is increased as well.

[Giantz11]

Since Protein does cause both a rise in insulin as well as glucagon, would that create a healthy balance throught the day one chose to not eat Carbohydrates during the day? Also if this causes a rise in gluconeogenesis, would that be terrible (if one consumes enough protein)?

[Dwight Schrute]

You never want to increase gluconeogensis unless you want to increase greatly the chance of muscle loss.

The whole point is that your body will always try to maintain some sort of homeostasis so your whole goal to manipulate insulin/glucagen to increase fat loss won't happen. THe end product is the same so if you want to limit carbs that is fine but it won't increase fat loss at all. You increase FFA oxidation but you are also taking in more dietary fat to make up for the lack of carbs so as I already said, the end result is the same. You'r body won't breakdown stored triglycerides with an abundance of FFA's circulating and with consuming a good amount of dietary fat, that is the sitation you are creating.



And you will stall out much faster that way due to the negative hormonal aspects of low carbs.

[jonny21]

Bobo, I am new to the posting. I follow a few of your posts and you appear to be quite knowledgeable. I am a little unclear on one of the things you mentioned. I could use a little further explanation if you don't mind.
- Protein/fat insulin response: As I understood insulin/glucagon release were dependant upon blood glucose levels. Now I know that insulin/glucagon release effect the synthesis/catabolism of Fatty acids, amino acids, glycogenolysis....So I know insulin effects protein/fat but I don't know what the direct effect protein/fat have on insulin?
Also, any literature supporting the following statement would be greatly appreciated.
Some foods (such as meat, fish, and eggs) that contain no carbohydrate, just protein and fat (and essentially have a GI value of zero), still stimulate significant rises in blood insulin.
Anything I find just reiterates what I already know and it is not possible to expand your knowledge with what you already know.

Thanks

[TheTom]

The way I look at it is this

As long as I keep my glycogen stores full, my body will never actually be pulling protein out of my muscles for fuel, just glycogen.

How do you keep those glycogen stores full so you don't actually lose any real muscle mass? Gotta keep the carbohydrates at a level where glycogen stores aren't depleting too fast.

Some of the benefits of keeping your glycogen stores full or nearly full while cutting are

A more full thick look, opposed to the flat look of low carbing
Less muscle protein loss while dieting
No reason for protein to be converted into glucose
More "Fed" signaling
Better strength maintenance and possibly even gains
Less cortisol throughout the day

To me medium carb to even high carb dieting, is always a win-win situation.

You may not lose total weight at the same rate as a 2,000 calorie low carb opposed to a 2,000 calorie medium carb diet, but you'll lose total bodyfat, at the same rate.

and if total bodyfat is the most important thing for you on a cut, and there's no reason it shouldn't be, the diet with carbohydrates is clearly the better one. For the reasons I posted above.

For example, I am a typical endormorph, genetically. Yet I have a thread on this forum where I attempt to cut with a medium-high carbohydrate diet, very low fat and high protein. The catch? I use medium-high GI carbs, not terribly high every meal, but not very low either. The result? Consistent yet slow bodyfat losses, consistent strength gains, and no mental dieting stress whatsoever, and I did this with Endomorph genetics.

[Dwight Schrute]

Bobo, I am new to the posting. I follow a few of your posts and you appear to be quite knowledgeable. I am a little unclear on one of the things you mentioned. I could use a little further explanation if you don't mind.
- Protein/fat insulin response: As I understood insulin/glucagon release were dependant upon blood glucose levels. Now I know that insulin/glucagon release effect the synthesis/catabolism of Fatty acids, amino acids, glycogenolysis....So I know insulin effects protein/fat but I don't know what the direct effect protein/fat have on insulin?
Also, any literature supporting the following statement would be greatly appreciated.
Some foods (such as meat, fish, and eggs) that contain no carbohydrate, just protein and fat (and essentially have a GI value of zero), still stimulate significant rises in blood insulin.
Anything I find just reiterates what I already know and it is not possible to expand your knowledge with what you already know.

Thanks

Simply put, people don't know. The response is small but the amount of total insulin released is still signfificant. Some specualte its the fat content but nobody knows WHY it happens.

[jonny21]

Simply put, people don't know. The response is small but the amount of total insulin released is still signfificant. Some specualte its the fat content but nobody knows WHY it happens.

Thanks for the reply. After a ton of digging I did find some literature, actually one abstract, that supported the increase of insulin with a high protein diet.
http://www.jacn.org/cgi/content/abst...lcode=jamcnutr

A little dated. thanks again.

[Dwight Schrute]

Yea I've seen that one. Only problem is that the HP meal still had a decnt amount fat in it and it was done in a fasting state. BUT that doesn't invalidate the findings....

Some protein sources do elicit a higher insulin response because of their amino acid content (some milk products) but it seems the GL seems to be effected more by fat as you can tell in the difference between items such as pizza, french fries, candy bars, etc...

Most of those are lod on the GI but off the charts when it comes to the GL.

[jonny21]

Yea I've seen that one. Only problem is that the HP meal still had a decnt amount fat in it and it was done in a fasting state. BUT that doesn't invalidate the findings....

Some protein sources do elicit a higher insulin response because of their amino acid content (some milk products) but it seems the GL seems to be effected more by fat as you can tell in the difference between items such as pizza, french fries, candy bars, etc...

Most of those are lod on the GI but off the charts when it comes to the GL.

Just another article if interested:
http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/full...urnalcode=ajcn

[Dwight Schrute]

Anything high in leucine, phenylalanine, and tyrosine will increase the amount of total insulin secreted but as I said before the main different was in energy dense foods.

"There are some instances, however, where a food has a low glycemic value but a high insulin index value. This applies to dairy foods and to some highly palatable energy-dense "indulgence foods." Some foods (such as meat, fish, and eggs) that contain no carbohydrate, just protein and fat (and essentially have a GI value of zero), still stimulate significant rises in blood insulin."

The New Glucose Revolution (New York: Marlowe and Company, 2003, pages 57-58