Hey bobo...

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    Hey bobo...


    I don't mean to be beating a dead horse, but some guys on abcbodybuilding.com brought up your claim on low-GI carbs pw and are ripping on it pretty harshly. I don't know if you want to respond, but if you do...

    http://www.abcbodybuilding.com/forum...page=0#1094259

    It'd be interesting to see how the debate turns out.
    Last edited by AldrichAStern; 05-22-2005 at 12:10 PM.

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    I think that there are always going to be stuides that disprove studies that disprove other studies, etc. I'm a believer in Dex/Whey PWO, some are not. But when you look at both me and someone else who follows a different path-- we both inevitably reach our goals. That's why I don't stay close minded and dismiss other's outlooks. Those who do that are too close minded and ignorant to see a bigger picture and to realize that there is more than one way to skin a cat. Unfortunate yes, but people are people.

    IMO the only good thing about abc is the lists of exercises.
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    The thing that I found especially funny though is that they said that Bobo has 0 science to back up his claims
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    Actually if you do a search, you will find Bobo's old thread on this and his science that is used to back it up.. trust me, the man knows his nutrition..
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    yeah, no doubt.
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    I doubt he will even go over to that hole.. No need, you can educate someone that does not or will not listen to what is being said.. just the amount of personal bull**** remarks made by the admin over there makes the whole thing totally subjective.. and I didn't see one thing he quoted that was scientific or even common knowledge
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    haha, one thing I've noticed about Bobo is that he knows his **** so well, that he'll frequently say things like "You can look it up in any nutritional textbook", rather than sit there and explain what, to him, is basic nutrition. I guess someone looking from the outside who doesn't know about Bobo's reputation would definitely take that as getting out of the debate... but anyone who knows Bobo like people here on AM knows that he has so much credibility on what he says that he really doesn't go into things.
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    If I were him, I wouldn't waste my time. Even though I go a different route in comparsion to his plans of attack (from what little I know) there is no doubt that they are effective otherwise his client base wouldn't continue to grow nor would he have the success that he has had. Based on that who am I to argue? Nobody, that's why I don't. You gotta do what works for YOU.. So few people seem to understand that.

    Results speak for themselves, backed up by science or not.

    People are so damn close minded.. ugh....
    Last edited by cry0smate; 05-21-2005 at 07:42 PM.
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    If i were him I wouldn't bother either, but personally I would love to see him go over there and bury them.
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    I could rip that guy apart so easily that I would feel guilty.

    "No matter what he is bashing, he still gives no actual argument(science) for his claim, because thats all he is doing is making a claim. "

    I guess they didn't read the Avant thread.


    " All he keeps talking about is the fat gain issue with a high GI carb but if he actually knew the physiology of post workout he would know that you wouldn't gain fat if you were taking the propor amounts of carbohydrates in your specified pwo coctail.

    He doesn't use any science so he has no argument.
    "

    Wrong again.

    Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

    Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

    Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

    The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.


    Notice where it says FAT. Maybe this guy should read a bit more and stop relying on abcbodybuilding articles which are clearly lacking.


    "He fails to pay attention to the necessity for cortisol execution, enhancing protein synthesis"

    Enhancing protein synthesis? Hmm...wonder what the substrate and nutrient signal is for enchancing protein synthesis. Oh I know...

    Amino acids stimulate translation initiation and protein synthesis through an Akt-independent pathway in human skeletal muscle.

    Liu Z, Jahn LA, Wei L, Long W, Barrett EJ.

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA. zl3e@virginia.edu

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70(S6K)) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover. Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser(473), but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70(S6K) (P < 0.001). [/b]We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.


    Look like amino acids are repsonsible for increasing protein synthesis rates, not insulin. Oh but I guess he has those OLD studies stating insulin increases protein sysnthesis. Well if he actually did a little digging he would actually understand the difference between in vitro and in vivo. Something along the lines of this...

    Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

    Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

    Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans.To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.

    In other words there is a major difference in effect from injecting insulin than normal physiological levels of insulin. Seems some people over there are basing there opinions on the WRONG studies. Talk about not backing up anything with science. THey wouldn't know how to interpret a study correctly if I showed them how.

    Bottom line, what increases levels of protein synthesis and is the main nutrient signal? AMINO ACIDS, NOT INSULIN.


    Oh and if they want to talk about glycogen storage, they can read this one too.

    Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

    Costill DL.

    The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.



    Those assclowns couldn't buy a clue.
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    Hahahaha... there we go
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    As a couple people have stated who actually understand what I am talking about:

    "This entire thread is marred by the simple fact that weight training is not a glycogen-depleting form of exercise. Sure, there will be some loss of glycogen stores, but nowhere near what is found from the type of glycogen-depleting protocols used in refeeding experiments. The type of high-intensity, rest-between-sets of weight lifting taxes the ATP-CP system heavily, but only has a small to moderate effect on glycogen reserves unless training volume is extremely high and/or there is little or no rest between sets and exercises.

    Not that this automatically invalidates everything that's been said, but it seems to me that we may well be comparing apples to oranges here. I know of no published studies which look at the effect of the post-workout meal on protein synthesis/degradation or glycogen synthesis after weight training.

    Janet Rankin did such a study two years ago in our department, and found no effect. Such an "unexciting" finding meant that it didn't get published, unfortunately.

    In another thread a while back, we discussed at length a human study which looked at the effects of insulin infusion, both at reast and post-exercise, on muscle protein synthesis. The bottom line was that insulin infusion increased muscle protein syntheses via its effects on vasodilation, which in turn caused a greater rate of amino acid deliver to muscle tissue under resting conditions.

    Post-exercise, when blood flow to muscles was already enhanced, insulin infusion had no further effect on protein synthesis. Thus, the idea that insulin spikes are anabolic in during post-workout conditions appears to be a myth, although there is still room for the anti-catabolic effects of insulin in the post workout state; however, the real-world significance of this for weight trainers is questionable.

    More important for anabolism would seem to be a high level of circulating amino acids both during the workout and post-workout, in addition to a high level of blood flow to the muscles."

    In other words, they are trying to create an enviroment with high GI carbs that is already present due to exercise. Maybe the guy who said I dind't understand physiology during post exercise should do a bit more reading.

    Ok, now I feel guilty.


    That about sums it up.
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    You can lead a horse to water......


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    For the billionth time.

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    "He also makes these authors out to be the authority on the matter"

    This guy was referring to Ivy, Tipton, Jentjens, Jeukendrup. Then he quotes Costill. Well guess who Costill, Groff, Gropper, etc...base their texts on.

    You guessed it (Ivy, Tipton, Jentjens, Jeukendrup, etc..). This guy is lost.

    "Alright, I have some time on my hands so I will destroy his arguements."

    Well since I had time on my hands, I decided to do it back.
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    yeah, why waste your time....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    In other words, they are trying to create an enviroment with high GI carbs that is already present due to exercise. Maybe the guy who said I dind't understand physiology during post exercise should do a bit more reading.
    This was the piece I needed to get through my thick ****ing skull to be converted from High GI. I've been cutting on a low GI diet and my recovery is great and energy levels are consistent. Thanks Bobo
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    Nice posts. Anyway you could start up your article series again? Something similiar to the protein articles you posted before. I always learn so much from your posts and I know a series of articles would be more than appreciated by the members.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks
    Nice posts. Anyway you could start up your article series again? Something similiar to the protein articles you posted before. I always learn so much from your posts and I know a series of articles would be more than appreciated by the members.
    I would certainly love it.

    A quick question, if I may.....

    Is the main problem you guys have with a High GI carbs the sheer amount of sugar that is recommended?

    For example, the above site would recommend around 80 grams of a 50:50, dextrose/maltodextrin mix PWO for a 200lb'er @ 16% BF, on a bulking phase. Don't ask me why he is bulking, just an example. This seems like a too much to me, especially when they are advocating taking this with quite a bit of whey protein.

    Are you guys advocating this amount of low GI carbs for a 200 lb'er?

    Please forgive my ignorance, I just want to understand both sides a little better.
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    80 grams would be overkill especially if preworkout nutrition is adquate. 50-60 grams of low gi carbs is a good amount for a 200 lb bodybuilder.
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    Quote from abc. I don't understand why they seem to take personal offense to this intellectual debate. He pretty much says "this debate is over", then proceeds to take a cheap shot. Maybe he needs to ask himself, WWJD?

    --

    "This thread is over...

    We're not debating people cross forums. Read our forum rules. Its a waste of our time, which translates to the quality of our site that we give our members. Peoples opinions on other forums mean nothing to us, or their comments. Especially on the internet. Internet drama is rediculous, which seems to be what he is promoting. These types really need to get out and get a life. We're a professional site, and it is reflected in our forums. Cheap soap operas have no place here, as our rules reflect.

    Our eyes are fixed on a goal, critisism and jealousy from others is an obvious side-effects of success and blessing, we see it as such and it does not affect us at all. First, Hatred for others success is well documented throughout history...just look at Jesus. Secondly, its internet drama, which is just childish to begin with.

    His arguements are lame and also he's cursing now which clearly indictates frustration and a lack of dignity and intelligence.

    Ad hominem attacks seem to be the logical flow of choice for those utilizing low GI CHO PW. Again, we don't care, and its like argueing if the world is round or flat. If debating hi or low carbs PW was profitable, we'd dissect every line he mentioned. His ignorance of carb metabolism is truely amazing, but its not worth our time disproving anymore.

    We don't debate on here to receive glory or puff ourselves up. Its whether the topic is profitable for bodybuiding purposes or not. Clearly, debating whether oatmeal and whipping cream is profitable is a waste of time at this point. We've completely shredded his logic flow time and time again in our articles and in the forums. Same logic, nothing new, still faulty. "
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    Quote Originally Posted by AldrichAStern
    Quote from abc. I don't understand why they seem to take personal offense to this intellectual debate. He pretty much says "this debate is over", then proceeds to take a cheap shot. Maybe he needs to ask himself, WWJD?

    --

    "This thread is over...

    We're not debating people cross forums. Read our forum rules. Its a waste of our time, which translates to the quality of our site that we give our members. Peoples opinions on other forums mean nothing to us, or their comments. Especially on the internet. Internet drama is rediculous, which seems to be what he is promoting. These types really need to get out and get a life. We're a professional site, and it is reflected in our forums. Cheap soap operas have no place here, as our rules reflect.

    Our eyes are fixed on a goal, critisism and jealousy from others is an obvious side-effects of success and blessing, we see it as such and it does not affect us at all. First, Hatred for others success is well documented throughout history...just look at Jesus. Secondly, its internet drama, which is just childish to begin with.

    His arguements are lame and also he's cursing now which clearly indictates frustration and a lack of dignity and intelligence.

    Ad hominem attacks seem to be the logical flow of choice for those utilizing low GI CHO PW. Again, we don't care, and its like argueing if the world is round or flat. If debating hi or low carbs PW was profitable, we'd dissect every line he mentioned. His ignorance of carb metabolism is truely amazing, but its not worth our time disproving anymore.

    We don't debate on here to receive glory or puff ourselves up. Its whether the topic is profitable for bodybuiding purposes or not. Clearly, debating whether oatmeal and whipping cream is profitable is a waste of time at this point. We've completely shredded his logic flow time and time again in our articles and in the forums. Same logic, nothing new, still faulty. "


    I never seen a more lame excuse at actually trying to defend their position. They basically ignored everything I have stated and to back up their points used studies of insulin IN VITRO which act significantly different than normal physiological levels. THey just are completely clueless and just follow everyone else like sheep.

    "Peoples opinions on other forums mean nothing to us, or their comments. "

    That is obvious, especially those of Tipton, who by they way according to them is insignificant when it comes to exercise nutrition. That in itself should show you these guys are frauds.

    "Internet drama is rediculous, which seems to be what he is promoting. These types really need to get out and get a life."


    Hmm...last time I checked he was taking the time to rip me apart when I wasn't there. Now that I have responded and can rip them a new *******, they don't want to continue.

    "We've completely shredded his logic flow time and time again in our articles and in the forums. Same logic, nothing new, still faulty. "

    Wow...I didn't know I was shredded time and time again in their "articles".

    Same logic, nothing new? That is there articles. Its same old BS that has been spread for the past 20 years yet they push them like it was revolutionary. Frauds.
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    I missed the part where you were cursing Bobo.. and last I read, you are far from flustered...
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    As for Venom actually trying to defend his position, let me rip apart piece by piece.


    1. Here is a quote, Fast Acting Hormones and their Role in Fuel use during Exercise

    Researched and Composed by By Jacob Wilson and Gabriel "Venom" Wilson


    THe funny thing is he actually used his own article as reference. He needs to edit that second sentence too but we can't be too picky on him Maybe he should go back and research the quantity of insulin needed to reduce any type of catabolic effects:

    "The combination of insulin and either increased amino acid availability or endurance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis in part through activation of the ribosomal protein S6 protein kinase S6K1 as well as through enhanced association of eukaryotic initiation factor eIF4G with eIF4E, an event that promotes binding of mRNA to the ribosome. In contrast, insulin in combination with resistance exercise stimulates translation initiation and protein synthesis through enhanced activity of a guanine nucleotide exchange protein referred to as eIF2B. In both cases, the amount of insulin required for the effects is low"

    Exercise Effects on Muscle Insulin Signaling and Action
    Invited Review: Role of insulin in translational control of protein synthesis in skeletal muscle by amino acids or exercise


    2. This is entirely false, and I saw no actually scientific study to support this claim, or a reference by this man, only a sentence stating so. Refer to the pre-contest article discussed in this thread.

    THis was in reference to this statement:

    " The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure"


    Hmm....I guess Mr. Venom needs to do a bit more digging.

    No scientific study? Well that statement actually came OUT OF A STUDY. The funny thing is these guys try to play the role of researcher when they don't even look at all the evidence.

    Costill DL.

    The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.

    3. The fact that amino acids play a vital role in protein synthesis adds or subtractes nothing from the anabolism of insulin.


    No, you mean the anti-catabolic effects. Get it right.

    5. Let me end the argument then. Consider the following extensive study, which took all factors into account.

    Hey genius, the purpose of sthe study was to find why the effects were not seen IN VIVO.

    "This effect is quite consistent with the action of insulin described in a number of in vitro studies using similar concentrations of insulin but distinct from what is observed with physiological hyperinsulinemia. Therefore, much of the discrepancy previously reported between insulin action on protein synthesis in vivo vs. in vitro may result directly from differences in insulin concentrations used."

    Want to see how they accomplished it?

    "In 14 healthy volunteers, we raised forearm insulin concentrations 1,000-fold above basal levels"

    Hmm...1000 fold.


    Need I say more?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew D
    I missed the part where you were cursing Bobo.. and last I read, you are far from flustered...
    More like laughing
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  26. Running with the Big Boys
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    LOL.. I was thinking that at the time I wrote that..
  27. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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    Quote Originally Posted by AldrichAStern
    Quote from abc. I don't understand why they seem to take personal offense to this intellectual debate. He pretty much says "this debate is over", then proceeds to take a cheap shot. Maybe he needs to ask himself, WWJD?

    --

    "This thread is over...

    We're not debating people cross forums. Read our forum rules. Its a waste of our time, which translates to the quality of our site that we give our members. Peoples opinions on other forums mean nothing to us, or their comments. Especially on the internet. Internet drama is rediculous, which seems to be what he is promoting. These types really need to get out and get a life. We're a professional site, and it is reflected in our forums. Cheap soap operas have no place here, as our rules reflect.

    Our eyes are fixed on a goal, critisism and jealousy from others is an obvious side-effects of success and blessing, we see it as such and it does not affect us at all. First, Hatred for others success is well documented throughout history...just look at Jesus. Secondly, its internet drama, which is just childish to begin with.

    His arguements are lame and also he's cursing now which clearly indictates frustration and a lack of dignity and intelligence.

    Ad hominem attacks seem to be the logical flow of choice for those utilizing low GI CHO PW. Again, we don't care, and its like argueing if the world is round or flat. If debating hi or low carbs PW was profitable, we'd dissect every line he mentioned. His ignorance of carb metabolism is truely amazing, but its not worth our time disproving anymore.

    We don't debate on here to receive glory or puff ourselves up. Its whether the topic is profitable for bodybuiding purposes or not. Clearly, debating whether oatmeal and whipping cream is profitable is a waste of time at this point. We've completely shredded his logic flow time and time again in our articles and in the forums. Same logic, nothing new, still faulty. "


    THis is how they debate an issue.


    Pick a point, then post half a a study stating it "clears things up" withouth ever actually explaining the significance.

    When they are confrtoned, they will fill the thread with 1-2 full studies stating "This clears up everything"


    When you actually break it down piece by piece, then don't have much of a leg to stand on. They just repeat themsevles over and over then refer to their "articles".

    Then they close the thread stating the "debate is over".

    Last time I checked I wasn't even over their debating them. They were taking their free time to "tear apart my arguements".

    Lets not forget them bringing up how people defend their posistion. The Strawman tactic and Ad Hominem references are a smoke screen when you can't defned your position. Instead of actually denating they criticize HOW you debate. Pretty transparent.
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    14 people.. not much of a study with only 14 people
  29. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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    Lets raise insulin concentrations 1000 fold within the forearm to defend our case.


    That sure "cleared things up"


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    Quote Originally Posted by AldrichAStern
    First, Hatred for others success is well documented throughout history...just look at Jesus.

    His arguements are lame and also he's cursing now which clearly indictates frustration and a lack of dignity and intelligence.

    "
    Anyone else find these two statements reeking of hypocrisy?


    Hatred? Jesus? Then I have no dignity or intelligence??!?!?




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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks
    Nice posts. Anyway you could start up your article series again? Something similiar to the protein articles you posted before. I always learn so much from your posts and I know a series of articles would be more than appreciated by the members.
    I would go gold in a heartbeat if you do
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    I would go gold in a heartbeat if you do
    I forgot to reply to that.

    I wish I could but I just don't have the time right now. I've had offers from some online mags but I just can't do it right now.


    Don't you know I be lackin' intelligence?
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    I don't give a **** if you write it in ebonics. I'm don't be aftuh yo' mutha****in' writing style (though the scathing critiques can be quite entertaining).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beowulf
    I don't give a **** if you write it in ebonics. I'm don't be aftuh yo' mutha****in' writing style (though the scathing critiques can be quite entertaining).
    It's cool. We can wait. Bobo writes better when he's pissed off anyway...
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    Hmmmmmm? Maybe we can annoy him into writing it. Then it would be an entertaining/educational read
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