[TheTom]

Alright I've been experimenting with High Carb, Medium-High GI foods for cutting, just to see if it's even possible.

and I have to say, it's working amazingly well!

I'm eating small portions of white rice, potatoes, wheat bread, wheat tortillas, skim milk and even some higher GI fruits like oranges.

I've been keeping the fat to almost as low as 0g-5g a meal, 10g at the absolute most, protein around 30g and carbs around 40g.

The reason I am doing this was to see if I could dispel the myth that low GI or even, low carb, is the only way to diet.

But this is working really well. I feeling very strong, vascular and am seeing very slow but steady losses in bodyfat.

I'm averaging about 260g-300g carb a day 30g fat a day and 200g protein a day. Coming to about 2500 cals a day, but I don't feel starved at all for someone @225lbs. I think the extra amount of added insulin per meal is really helping to keep the muscle on, actually.

[dsl]

what actual carbs make up the most of your diet? and what type of metabolism would u say that u have (endo ,ecto, meso)?

[TheTom]

If you look at the third line of my post, you will see the carbs that I am using for this experiment.

Also I am a MAJOR Endormorph, my natural setpoint is around 25% bodyfat if I just ate whatever I wanted.

The funny thing is, the low carb high fat high protein stuff doesn't work for me at all, which is what a lot of so called gurus tout, as far as being an endomorph goes.

I actually need a lot of carbs to keep my metabolism and muscle glycogen up, and low fat as possible, to keep from storing it, since I think my body stores it very easily.

[TheCrownedOne]

This is interesting. I read an article a long time ago where this mag interviewed Mike Mentzer, and he was saying how he was cutting while eating ice-cream and sweets while staying at basal calories. Everybody's different. I've seen these videos of Asians on the Discovery channel, just where they'd be exploring their culture, and you'd see them eating white rice by the pile.

[TheCrownedOne]

Also, the book Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism 2004 ed., says that "The conversion of glucose to fatty acids appears to occur only if energy intake exceeds energy expenditure".
BUT it also says, "Diets high in simple carbohydrates and low in fats induce a set of lipogenic enzymes in the liver...Other studies have confirmed that a very low fat/high sugar diet causes an increase in fatty acid synthesis and palmitate-rich, linoleate-poor VLDL triacylglycerols. Furthermore, the effect may be reduced if starch is substituted for the sugar, possibly owing to the slower absorption of starch glucose and lower postprandial insulin response."

[Oatmeal_King]

Originally Posted by TheTom

The reason I am doing this was to see if I could dispel the myth that low GI or even, low carb, is the only way to diet.

You will lost weight if you take in less energy than you expend. That is all there is to it.

If you have protein at 1.5g/lb and sufficient EFAs, it probably does not matter much how you split up fat/cho and whether the GI is low or high. I have seen cogent arguments for high GI on a diet, but appetite will be tough to control.

Having said that, partitioning will be affected by your food choices. Also, your overall health, mood, and performance will be greatly affected by food choices.

My most effective diets have been those that combine moderate deficit (say -500Kcal) with a balanced diet and high activity. In fact, the best apparent p-ratio I have ever achieved was from energy intake at resting maintenance Kcal with deficit created entirely by activiity. Gotta be patient though.

[exnihilo]

Insulin does play a role as an allosteric regulator of protein synthesis pathways, and does blunt cortisol. It also inhibits FFA release and encourages adipocyte uptake and utilization of plasma glucose.

Unfortunately for the first two, the combined presence of cAMP and low concentrations of glycolysis intermediates which frequently occur in caloric deficit are theorized to act as strong allosteric inhibitors to the genes which encode for protein synthesis (among many others).

So what do you get with high insulin levels on a diet? A tendency towards the transformation/storage as fat of the carbs you do eat and muscle breakdown at any time that your liver is not able to supply sufficient glucose for your metabolic needs. Is this what you want?!

[Oatmeal_King]

Originally Posted by exnihilo

Insulin does play a role as an allosteric regulator of protein synthesis pathways, and does blunt cortisol. It also inhibits FFA release and encourages adipocyte uptake and utilization of plasma glucose.

Unfortunately for the first two, the combined presence of cAMP and low concentrations of glycolysis intermediates which frequently occur in caloric deficit are theorized to act as strong allosteric inhibitors to the genes which encode for protein synthesis (among many others).

So what do you get with high insulin levels on a diet? A tendency towards the transformation/storage as fat of the carbs you do eat and muscle breakdown at any time that your liver is not able to supply sufficient glucose for your metabolic needs. Is this what you want?!

Well, you cannot have everything. Fat loss is catabolic by definition. High dietary protein intake (1.5g/lb say) coupled with the right amount of resistance training is going to modulate catabolism.

Pushing glucose into adipose is not going to matter much as long as 24 hour fat balance is negative. It could even help with short term leptin signalling, though that likely would not mean much in the face of decreasing fat mass.

Note that I am not advoicating a high GI fat loss diet, but if you could control appetite, it would likely lead to overall lower plasma insulin for more hours of the day with a given amount of carbs versus a low gi approach. It might be worth a try within a ketogenic framework, but I will leave that experimentation up to others.

[exnihilo]

Leptin signalling takes a sustained period of refeeding to re-balace.

Having high spikes in insulin is not going to do anything positive for you, it's just going to inhibit lipolysis and encourage triglyceride formation. As for your 24 hour calorie balance, if you are eating very close to maintenance and not engaging in a significant amount of exercise/doing a significant amount of work your liver may be able to smooth out the bumps to a degree, but the more active you are or the more below maintenance you eat, the more detrimental insulin spikes are going to be. Unlike oatmeal, it's the wrong thing to do (tm)

[Nitrox]

Originally Posted by Oatmeal_King

You will lost weight if you take in less energy than you expend. That is all there is to it.

If you have protein at 1.5g/lb and sufficient EFAs, it probably does not matter much how you split up fat/cho and whether the GI is low or high. I have seen cogent arguments for high GI on a diet, but appetite will be tough to control.

Having said that, partitioning will be affected by your food choices. Also, your overall health, mood, and performance will be greatly affected by food choices.

My most effective diets have been those that combine moderate deficit (say -500Kcal) with a balanced diet and high activity. In fact, the best apparent p-ratio I have ever achieved was from energy intake at resting maintenance Kcal with deficit created entirely by activiity. Gotta be patient though.

Agreed, a long term energy deficit will lead to a decrease in body mass regardless of macronutrient ratios. A diet that does not result in a lower body mass is almost certainly due to a miscalculation of energy intake and/or expenditure yielding an inadequate deficit.

Additionally there seems to be a general misconception about insulin response to carb intake. The consumption of carbs does not universally promote increased insulin levels. When hypocaloric, glycogen and even blood glucose levels may be partially depleted leading to increased glucose uptake through non-insulin mediated means.

Originally Posted by Exnihilo

So what do you get with high insulin levels on a diet? A tendency towards the transformation/storage as fat of the carbs you do eat and muscle breakdown at any time that your liver is not able to supply sufficient glucose for your metabolic needs. Is this what you want?!

Also agreed. An overall period of energy deficit that includes periods of large energy surplus (and anabolism) must also include periods of larger energy deficit (and catabolism). Increased insulin sensitivity while dieting could well lead to a greater amount of calories stored as fat during the hypercaloric periods. The greater energy deficits will likely result in increased breakdown of lean body tissues (muscle).

The priority should be to maintain the smallest deficit over the longest period of time. If eating less frequently, moderate size meals of slower digesting foods will help accomplish this. If higher GI carbs are in the diet, smaller more frequent meals would be required to avoid the larger energy surplus/deficit swings.

[TheTom]

Well I've been using this Medium-High GI, Low Fat, Very High Protein method for about 2 weeks now and I gotta say, I feel ****in great. I look leaner, thicker and more vascular in the mirror already. The scale says I am down only 3 lbs but the mirror says so much more than that.

Also for those who might of skimmed over this line

"I'm eating small portions of white rice, potatoes, wheat bread, wheat tortillas, skim milk and even some higher GI fruits like oranges."

My insulin isn't totally off the charts, but it is on the high side.

Supplements I'm using are Rebound XT, Ultra Hot, BULK CEE and ON 100% Casien Protein.

[houseman]

Originally Posted by TheTom

My insulin isn't totally off the charts, but it is on the high side.

I assume you validate this with a glucose monitor?

[exnihilo]

Could be worse, nutritionally. But that would mean you were eating at mcdonalds

[Nitrox]

Originally Posted by TheTom

My insulin isn't totally off the charts, but it is on the high side.

I would also like to know how you are measuring your insulin levels. Where I live, a C-peptide test is rather expensive and requires a month turn around due to batch processing.

[Oatmeal_King]

Originally Posted by Nitrox

Increased insulin sensitivity while dieting could well lead to a greater amount of calories stored as fat during the hypercaloric periods.

Oh yeah. Nothing like being freshly freaky lean with a crashed BMR, appetite completely whacked in the brain, highly insulin sensitive adipose, and no more goals to remember when you smell a donut. Which leads to....

Originally Posted by Nitrox

The priority should be to maintain the smallest deficit over the longest period of time.

Or very moderate deficits interspersed with full on breaks eating at maintenance.

Although it requires a lot of patience and an order of magnitude more discipline, the slow and steady approach wins out when you want to make *permanent* body composition changes. On a related (but typically digressive) note, this thread from Lyle's board is interesting:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/for...ead.php?t=6568

Sort of turns the conventional increase deficit as you crash metabolism approach on its head.

[Oatmeal_King]

Originally Posted by houseman

I assume you validate this with a glucose monitor?

As alluded to above, I don't think you can safely infer insulin from blood glucose. Too many variables unique to an individual, as well as things like insulinogenic slow/medium speed digesting proteins like lean red meat.

Anybody got a link to the insulin index for protein sources handy?

[exnihilo]

Originally Posted by Oatmeal_King

Oh yeah. Nothing like being freshly freaky lean with a crashed BMR, appetite completely whacked in the brain, highly insulin sensitive adipose, and no more goals to remember when you smell a donut. Which leads to....


Or very moderate deficits interspersed with full on breaks eating at maintenance.

Although it requires a lot of patience and an order of magnitude more discipline, the slow and steady approach wins out when you want to make *permanent* body composition changes. On a related (but typically digressive) note, this thread from Lyle's board is interesting:

http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/for...ead.php?t=6568