Banana/Strawberry Post Workout Shake

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    Banana/Strawberry Post Workout Shake


    I am very strict on my diet when it comes to sugar intake and lately my buddies have been putting certain supplements in there post workout shakes that contain 20 - 30 grams of sugar. And that really makes me nervous... I know your suppost to have some insullin spike for maximum protein consumption, but I would think the body uses that sugar before it has time to digest the whey. Any way... My question is can I use a banana and strawberries as my sugar intake?

    Currently I drink a post workout shake with 2 scoops of whey w/ 1 banana and 2 or 3 strawberries.

    Thanks for the help,

    Bill

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    Post workout is the one time you shouldn't worry about excessive carb intake. In fact I get around 100 grams PWO.

    Here's a great article on PWO nutrition that I think you should read for yourself.
    http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/...importance.htm
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    Quote Originally Posted by natedogg
    Post workout is the one time you shouldn't worry about excessive carb intake. In fact I get around 100 grams PWO.

    Here's a great article on PWO nutrition that I think you should read for yourself.
    http://www.johnberardi.com/articles/...importance.htm
    I understand how important PWO carbs are... I just want to know if the carbs and sugar from strawberries and banana's are enough? I'm not big of supplements that contain a lot sugars because companies are not alway in tune with their product labels.

    Here is the data for 1 cup of each...

    Strawberry info:


    Banana info:
    •   
       

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    The only problem I would have is that fruits contain fructose. I prefer malto and dextrose over fructose because they are absorbed much faster and gives you a much higher insulin spike as well which is what you want after a workout. The faster the absorbtion and the higher the insulin spike, the better PWO. Dextrose for example scores around 100 on the GI index. Fructose on the other hand is closer to 30.
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    I forgot to include - I use labrada V60 Whey and here are the specs:
    Each serving of 2 rounded scoops contains: Calories 310 Calories from Fat 20 Total Fat 2.5g Saturated Fat 1.5g Cholesterol 35mg Sodium 265mg Potassium 450mg Total Carbohydrates 12g Dietary Fiber 1g Sugars 5g Protein 60g

    Total Shake Breakdown

    Calories - 678g
    Protein - 63g
    Fiber - 20g
    Carbs - 105g
    Fructose Sugars - 28g
    Sugar - 5g



    Would that also be the case if your cutting? Post Cardio?

    Can you give me an example of malto and dextrose?
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    Quote Originally Posted by blide
    I forgot to include - I use labrada V60 Whey and here are the specs:
    Each serving of 2 rounded scoops contains: Calories 310 Calories from Fat 20 Total Fat 2.5g Saturated Fat 1.5g Cholesterol 35mg Sodium 265mg Potassium 450mg Total Carbohydrates 12g Dietary Fiber 1g Sugars 5g Protein 60g

    Total Shake Breakdown

    Calories - 678g
    Protein - 63g
    Fiber - 20g
    Carbs - 105g
    Fructose Sugars - 28g
    Sugar - 5g



    Would that also be the case if your cutting? Post Cardio?
    Can you give me an example of malto and dextrose?
    I don't cut but I would say yes, this would be the same for cutting as well. Cardio, I would say not. My PWO shake consists of 102 grams of malto/dex and about 72 grams of whey proteins. I would stick to straight whey PWO and I noticed that V60 has casien and egg white proteins. The carb and protein numbers look good but I think you could choose better sources for your PWO shake.
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    Fruit actually contains sucrose predominantly... But anyhow - 2 bananas and a cup of diced strawberries is fine in your PWO shake man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    Fruit actually contains sucrose predominantly... But anyhow - 2 bananas and a cup of diced strawberries is fine in your PWO shake man.
    I see that now and yes it is fine, but I would still rather go with pure dextose and maltodextrin sources PWO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by exnihilo
    Fruit actually contains sucrose predominantly... But anyhow - 2 bananas and a cup of diced strawberries is fine in your PWO shake man.
    I thought the body takes longer to break down sucrose? Isn't sucrose the same sugar that's in a candy bar?
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    Quote Originally Posted by natedogg
    The faster the absorbtion and the higher the insulin spike, the better PWO.

    No it isn't. Where did you get this from?

    I hope its not the Berardi articles which are a direct advertisement for Biotest Surge.


    Funny he lists this reference:

    Tipton et al. (2001). Timing of amino acid-carbohydrate ingestion alters anabolic response of muscle to resistance exercise. Am.J.Physiol Endocrinol.Metab. 281(2): E197-206.


    Tell him to go ASK Tipton what he thinks and he will tell you that the carbohydrate source doesn't matter. It would be nice if John actually knows the what the authors think of the situation before quoting them.
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    Ok. So, in conclusion, basically it doesn't really matter what kind of sugar is used, just how much correct? How much do you recommend PWO? Not to be an ass, but can you elaborate instead of just saying no you're wrong. Are you saying Beradi is not a good source of info? If so who is? I'm still trying to learn a lot about the nutritional side of things and I'd like to know some good sources of info.
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    I have to agree..

    Bobo, you just came in and made a remark and didn't try to answer any of the questions that have been asked. Please leave us any suggestions that you may have....
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    I didn't simply say your wrong. I told you that Tipton himself even concluded that any carbohydrate will have positive influences on protein synthesis.

    Berardi is like most people in the supplements industry. He is influenced by who pays him. So you won't get the whole story. If you did you would get studies like these:

    Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

    Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

    Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

    The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.



    Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

    Costill DL.

    The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.



    Amino acids regulate skeletal muscle PHAS-I and p70 S6-kinase phosphorylation independently of insulin. Long, W., L. Saffer, L. Wei, and E. J. Barrett. Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    APStracts 7:0077E, 2000.
    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Refeeding reverses the muscle protein loss seen with fasting. The physiological regulators and cellular control sites responsible for this reversal are incompletely defined. Phosphorylation of phosphorylated heat-acid stabled protein (PHAS-I) frees eukaryotic initiation factor 4E (eIF4E) and stimulates protein synthesis by accelerating translation initiation. Phosphorylation of p70 S6-kinase (p70S6k) is thought to be involved in the regulation of the synthesis of some ribosomsal proteins and other selected proteins with polypyrimidine clusters near the transcription start site. We examined whether phosphorylation of PHAS-I and p70S6k was increased by feeding and determined the separate effects of insulin and amino acids on PHAS-I and p70S6k phosphorylation in rat skeletal muscle in vivo. Muscle was obtained from rats fed ad libitum or fasted overnight (n = 5 each). Other fasted rats were infused with insulin (3 muU�min�minus�1�kg�m inus�1, euglycemic clamp), amino acids, or the two combined. Gastrocnemius was freeze-clamped, and PHAS-I and p70S6k phosphorylation was measured by quantifying the several phosphorylated forms of these proteins seen on Western blots. We observed that feeding increased phosphorylation of both PHAS-I and p70S6k (P < 0.05). Infusion of amino acids alone reproduced the effect of feeding. Physiological hyperinsulinemia increased p70S6K (P < 0.05) but not PHAS-I phosphorylation (P = 0.98). Addition of insulin to amino acid infusion was no more effective than amino acids alone in promoting PHAS-I and p70S6k phosphorylation. We conclude that amino acid infusion alone enhances the activation of the protein synthetic pathways in vivo in rat skeletal muscle. This effect is not dependent on increases in plasma insulin and simulates the activation of protein synthesis that accompanies normal feeding.



    Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

    Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

    Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.



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    Quote Originally Posted by blide
    I have to agree..

    Bobo, you just came in and made a remark and didn't try to answer any of the questions that have been asked. Please leave us any suggestions that you may have....
    I've answered it a million times. All you have to do is search.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I've answered it a million times. All you have to do is search.
    I wasn't taking a stab at you..
    I have done some searchs on banana's and strawberries and didn't come up with anything. . I will see if I can find something else in my searches. Sorry I'm kind of new to this and tried to post as much information that I new about my PWO shake intake. I haven't had enough time to learn the complete details of nutrition and PWO.

    Thanks for the help,

    Bill
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    The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
    So from this information no matter what sugar you intake it will be the same? Fruits vs a packet of sugar?

    The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise.
    And since the banana and strawberries have more than 100grams of carbs it would utilize this aspect as well?
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    I wasn't taking a stab at you..
    I have done some searchs on banana's and strawberries and didn't come up with anything. I was just looking for information on whether or not I should take in these fruits instead of using a supplement. (Natural instead of substitute's) . I will see if I can find something else in my searches. Sorry I'm kind of new to this and tried to post as much information that I new about my PWO shake intake. I haven't had enough time to learn the details of nutrition and PWO.
    That one study said.......
    The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
    So it would appear that the carb source doesn't affect glycogen resynthesis. If that's the case it would be better to go with low GI carbs. In other words shake is ok.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blide
    I wasn't taking a stab at you..
    I have done some searchs on banana's and strawberries and didn't come up with anything. . I will see if I can find something else in my searches. Sorry I'm kind of new to this and tried to post as much information that I new about my PWO shake intake. I haven't had enough time to learn the complete details of nutrition and PWO.

    Thanks for the help,

    Bill
    I wans't taking one at you either. I was just letting you know that there should be multiple threads on this subject in which I explain in great detail the reasons behind my statements. It tends be long and drawn out...

    If you really want to learn proper nutrition, simply learn the basics. Invest in an entry level college text. It will be a GREAT investment and will enable you to cut through the enormous amount of myths you read on message boards.
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    Quote Originally Posted by blide
    So from this information no matter what sugar you intake it will be the same? Fruits vs a packet of sugar?

    And since the banana and strawberries have more than 100grams of carbs it would utilize this aspect as well?
    As VG pointed out already, it simply states the the form of carbohydrate really doens't matter in terms of glycogen resynthesis. If you're worried about sugar consumption then you are already in the right frame of mind. Fruit would be fine but I would keep it on the lower end and maybe opt for Skim Milk (my favorite) or other forms of low-mod GI foods (wholegrains, oats, etc...)
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    I dont use sugars at all for my PWO. Would much rather take in blended oates or something more nutritent dense.
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    I'm reading a book written by Chris Aceto and he states that fast acting, refined or easy to digest carbs are better PWO than slower acting more natural carbs in rapidly replenishing muscle glycogen stores. Truthfully I've always read that simple sugars are best when used PWO. Otherwise I stay away from them as much as possible.
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    From what I've picked up I thought that simple sugars are good to keep glycogen levels up during workout, but post workout something on the lower end of the GI is better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by natedogg
    I'm reading a book written by Chris Aceto and he states that fast acting, refined or easy to digest carbs are better PWO than slower acting more natural carbs in rapidly replenishing muscle glycogen stores. Truthfully I've always read that simple sugars are best when used PWO. Otherwise I stay away from them as much as possible.

    Faster replenishment of glycogen stores has nothing to do with increased protein synthesis rates or recovery.

    If you have further glycogen dependent activities following resistant training then it makes sense but if not, it serves no purpose.
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    This sums it up rather nicely:

    "This entire thread is marred by the simple fact that weight training is not a glycogen-depleting form of exercise. Sure, there will be some loss of glycogen stores, but nowhere near what is found from the type of glycogen-depleting protocols used in refeeding experiments. The type of high-intensity, rest-between-sets of weight lifting taxes the ATP-CP system heavily, but only has a small to moderate effect on glycogen reserves unless training volume is extremely high and/or there is little or no rest between sets and exercises.

    Not that this automatically invalidates everything that's been said, but it seems to me that we may well be comparing apples to oranges here. I know of no published studies which look at the effect of the post-workout meal on protein synthesis/degradation or glycogen synthesis after weight training.

    Janet Rankin did such a study two years ago in our department, and found no effect. Such an "unexciting" finding meant that it didn't get published, unfortunately.

    In another thread a while back, we discussed at length a human study which looked at the effects of insulin infusion, both at reast and post-exercise, on muscle protein synthesis. The bottom line was that insulin infusion increased muscle protein syntheses via its effects on vasodilation, which in turn caused a greater rate of amino acid deliver to muscle tissue under resting conditions.

    Post-exercise, when blood flow to muscles was already enhanced, insulin infusion had no further effect on protein synthesis. Thus, the idea that insulin spikes are anabolic in during post-workout conditions appears to be a myth,
    although there is still room for the anti-catabolic effects of insulin in the post workout state; however, the real-world significance of this for weight trainers is questionable.

    More important for anabolism would seem to be a high level of circulating amino acids both during the workout and post-workout, in addition to a high level of blood flow to the muscles."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

    Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.
    You've probably already seen this one though the abstract sucks balls so it'd be easy to miss, but:

    Effect of insulin and plasma amino acid concentrations on leucine metabolism in man. Role of substrate availability on estimates of whole body protein synthesis.

    P Castellino, L Luzi, D C Simonson, M Haymond, and R A DeFronzo

    In it it basically states that non-oxidative leucine disposal is identical regardless of amino acid concentrations above a baseline and pretty much irregardless of insulin concentrations. Kind of a nice contrast to the diabetic rat leucine-insulin studies posted all over the place.
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    The problem with a study like that is that all test substances were administered through a catheter. Both insulin and AA have different effects when administered in vitro so its tough to correlate what would happen with normal physiological concentrations.
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    Hey Bobo, are there websites that you know of that have this information so I can maybe do some research on my own? Maybe textbooks I can take a look at?
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA
    From what I've picked up I thought that simple sugars are good to keep glycogen levels up during workout, but post workout something on the lower end of the GI is better.
    Is this right at all Bobo? Or should I go back to researching
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    Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA
    Is this right at all Bobo? Or should I go back to researching
    Yeah, I chug gatorade during my workout. I'd like to know how exactly this is beneficial, or not. I suppose it would be great If I were an endurance athlete, but what about weightlifting purposes?
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    I only do gatorade on hard workouts, mainly leg workouts where I am gonna be using the most weight and exerting the most energy to do it. I think thats the only workout that is actually intense enough to even use gatorade.
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    This thread is a reminder of the Avant thread, and it gives me a headache. And Bobo already pointed out a thread on Avant that list an insane amount of referenced studies. Good stuff, just be prepared for mind numbing reading, lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOHICA
    Is this right at all Bobo? Or should I go back to researching
    Certain days like leg day a good fast acting carb source during workout a good because of the way it taxes the body (unique compared to other muscle groups). But if your pre-workout meal is adequate (and I know it is ) then glycogen storage isn't anything you need to worry about. They are pretty much full 24/7 with your diet.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryansm
    This thread is a reminder of the Avant thread, and it gives me a headache. And Bobo already pointed out a thread on Avant that list an insane amount of referenced studies. Good stuff, just be prepared for mind numbing reading, lol.
    Is there a link I can check out? No need to regurgitate the same info that has already been said somewhere else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by natedogg
    Is there a link I can check out? No need to regurgitate the same info that has already been said somewhere else.
    THey are tweaking the board over there so it's down right now, but here is the link http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=12&t=3235&hl=&

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    Quote Originally Posted by natedogg
    Hey Bobo, are there websites that you know of that have this information so I can maybe do some research on my own? Maybe textbooks I can take a look at?
    College textbooks. The best single resource you can buy.



    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    Sareen S. Gropper, Jack L. Smith, James L. Groff

    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Boo...rid=dK8SN6ABH1
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ryansm
    THey are tweaking the board over there so it's down right now, but here is the link http://forum.avantlabs.com/?act=ST&f=12&t=3235&hl=&
    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    College textbooks. The best single resource you can buy.



    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    Sareen S. Gropper, Jack L. Smith, James L. Groff

    http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Boo...rid=dK8SN6ABH1
    Thanks and Thanks.
  

  
 

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