View Poll Results: Best fat loss, best muscle preservation, shortest time to results

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49. This poll is closed
  • Timed Ketogenic Diet (TKD)

    9 18.37%
  • Cyclic Ketogenic Diet (CKD)

    34 69.39%
  • Long term ketosis (no carb-ups)

    6 12.24%

Keto Diet poll

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  1. Gold Member
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    Question Keto Diet poll


    Pretty straightforward: which diet has produced the most solid fat loss in the shortest amount of time while preserving or increasing muscle in your experience - TKD, CKD, or full blown long term keto (i.e. no carb-ups)?

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    not sure if this fits in with CKD or not but i find the Animalbolics way of carb only after resistance training very beneficial for muscle preservation with good fat loss as long as you have a good idea of how many carbs you need postworkout to just replenish glycogen stores
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    From what I've read, Cosmo, that's a Timed Ketogenic Diet.
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    Ah, thats me then. Thanks
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    It really depends on what your goals are.

    For the BBer, a protein-sparing CKD is by far the best way to go.

    For someone who say has to make weight for a sport, a TKD (Targetted ketogenic Diet) may proove to be more optimal. Not reccommended for the regualr lifter who is just cutting because there is more risk of muscle loss albeit small.

    The SKD (standard ketogenic diet) is just assinine. This WILL CAUSE MUSCLE LOSS. This is the worst option for anyone who is a BBer or really trains well in the gym. For the obese person, this would be a good option for the initial 4-6 weeks, but carbs are a must for muscle glycogen. People are more uneducated when they say "I just want to lose fat and dont care about muscle". They don't realize that the mroe LBM a person has the more calories he/she will burn throughout a day.
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    Neither.

    They all are extremely overrated.
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    i would say a high/mod carb diet
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Neither.

    They all are extremely overrated.
    Agreed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
    Agreed.
    So what kind of diet do you recommend then? 40-40-20?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irongame
    So what kind of diet do you recommend then? 40-40-20?
    That's a decent place to start.
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    It depends on your goals, your body and your experience level in my opinion.

    A blanket statement is really helpful. Competitors follow a myraid of nutritional strategies for their contest prep. Some of them do moderate carb/protein and low fat. Some do high protein, low carb and moderate fat, some do high carb, moderate protein and low fat. Some do isocaloric. So obviously there are several ways to skin a cat. Let's not try to delude people into thinking there's only one way to accomplish something.

    Just the same as some can get into contest shape without any cardio while others do cardio.

    The key, in my opinion, is understanding of your body to accomplish your goals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irongame
    So what kind of diet do you recommend then? 40-40-20?
    Yes. I have had better results with 99% of my clients with this type of diet than any other. Most of my clients are former low carb advocates that swore up and down that low carb was the way to go. I've trained one of the MODS at C-K-D.com and he will never go back to low carb again. He was one of those guys that swore up and down that his metabolism wouldn't allow him to consume a good amount of carbs. Well after 16 weeks he was leaner than he ever was before while maintaining all of his LBM and strength.

    So to answer the original question, no diet has "increased" fat loss over the other. Fat loss is very long process and is not increased by simply reducing carbs. Weight loss could be increased from the loss of glycogen and water but actual fat loss is not increased and during times of single bf% could actually be decreased due to the hormonal responses the body will have due to carb restriction. However LBM loss over a prolonged peroid of time is increased with carb restriction. So if you are not one of genetically elite then start your decision making by choosing a diet that has been proven time and time again at working and that is more of a high protein carb based diet. 99% of competitive bodybuilders alsways use a carb based diet and slowly restrict overall calories over time. The low carb phase is for the last week or two can help with decreasing sub'q water and preparing the body for supercompensation come contest time.
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    By the way, if you're going to go with the ratio way of dieting, this site: http://www.nutritiondata.com/ has a function under the 'Tools' tab at the top left that allows you to search every food known (pretty much) by their ratio. They also have an abundance of other useful tools and information for the practicing dieter.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Neither.

    They all are extremely overrated.
    A-men.
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    i dont know the difference between the 3. someone enlighten me please
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    Quote Originally Posted by oh-honey
    i dont know the difference between the 3. someone enlighten me please
    Enlighten yourself.
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    thanks, nice one

    Quote Originally Posted by Lean One
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    Quote Originally Posted by oh-honey
    thanks, nice one
    Glad to be of help.
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    I don't think that CKD is overrated in the least bit... A majority of people on CKD end up either maintaining all of their muscle mass, if not building muscle -- while losing the standard 1-2 lbs a week. I don't think that 40/40/20 has that kind of a record. To each his own I guess. The caloric deficit is and will always be the most important thing... so if a diet works better for some people more than others in terms of muscle preservation and fatloss, I see no way that it can be overrated.

    Whatever you all are thinking of as overrated is probably a CKD full of crap carbups and high processed foods.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AldrichAStern
    I don't think that 40/40/20 has that kind of a record.
    You are right. It has a better one. Just ask the majority of competitive bodybuilders.
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    Bobo, just curious about your thoughts on keto diets. I've been a longtime believer in CKD, but some of the ideas seem slightly sketchy... You say that there's no benefit from being in ketosis, however, it seems to be well-circulated, that ketones are an insufficient source of energy, and therefore you're not getting calorie-for-calorie out of them, thereby giving you that "metabolic advantage" that keto gurus seem to always talk about. What are your thoughts on this? Is this just bunk?

    I personally run a CKD because I feel like it keeps me strict. A 40/40/20 is so much harder for me to keep strict on... each time I've tried to run one, it's eventually failed because of my unsatiable appetite for carbohydrates. Would be curious to see if I could benefit from subscribing to your training program for cutting on a 40/40/20 in the near future
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    Quote Originally Posted by AldrichAStern
    Bobo, just curious about your thoughts on keto diets. I've been a longtime believer in CKD, but some of the ideas seem slightly sketchy... You say that there's no benefit from being in ketosis, however, it seems to be well-circulated, that ketones are an insufficient source of energy, and therefore you're not getting calorie-for-calorie out of them, thereby giving you that "metabolic advantage" that keto gurus seem to always talk about. What are your thoughts on this? Is this just bunk?
    There is no metabolic advnatage. Ketosis is more a side effect. EVen Lyle himself states this and you cna't get anymore "CKD" than him.

    Ketones eventually get broken down to what everything esle eventually gets broken down to, ATP. There is simply no advantage at all being in ketosis.
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    Energetics of obesity and weight control: does diet composition matter?

    Schoeller DA, Buchholz AC.


    Greater average weight losses (2.5 kg over 12 weeks) have been reported for low-carbohydrate diets (<90 g/day) compared with traditional low-fat (<25% of energy), hypocaloric diets, implying a 233 kcal/day greater energy deficit. It has therefore been suggested that a low-carbohydrate diet may provide a metabolic advantage (an increase in energy expenditure), resulting in a positive effect on weight loss and maintenance. However, a review of studies in which 24-hour energy expenditure was measured did not provide evidence to support a metabolic advantage of low-carbohydrate diets and showed little evidence of a metabolic advantage of high-protein (>25% of energy) diets. Nonetheless, diets high in protein, but either low or modest in carbohydrate, have resulted in greater weight losses than traditional low-fat diets. We speculate that it is the protein, and not carbohydrate, content that is important in promoting short-term weight loss and that this effect is likely due to increased satiety caused by increased dietary protein. It has been suggested that the increased satiety might help persons to be more compliant with a hypocaloric diet and achieve greater weight loss. The current evidence, combined with the need to meet all nutrient requirements, suggests that hypocaloric weight-loss diets should be moderate in carbohydrate (35% to 50% of energy), moderate in fat (25% to 35% of energy), and protein should contribute 25% to 30% of energy intake. More studies of the efficacy of weight-loss and weight-maintenance diets that address protein content are needed. In addition, controlled studies of total energy expenditure or physical activity measured under free-living conditions that directly compare high-protein diets with those containing low and moderate carbohydrate content should also be performed.

    PMID: 15867892 [PubMed - in process]
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    Their traditional low-fat diet is not a 40/40/20. Most of the metabolic advantages are from a higher protein intake due to its thermic properties, not the low carbohydrate intake.

    Now when you incorporate exercise (especially resistance training) the carbohydrates becomes an imporant factor.

    You also have to take into account the difference in metabolism from an obese subject compared to a lean active one. In any case that study really doesn't say much either way.
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    Bobo, regardless of the right answer in the low-carb debate, I wouldn't bring Lyle into this... The man is not what most bodybuilders want to be. He does things like suggest on carbing up on pop tarts in his book. His side in this debate solely depends on what new diet book he's trying to pimp out. Plus, anyone who has seen pictures of the guy has to wonder whether to follow his advice. Sorry, but writing a book about ketogenic diets like it's the best thing since sliced bread (no pun intended), only to bash ketogenic diets when his new book comes out... coincidence?


    In terms of studies to show that there is no metabolic advantage, there are also studies to show that there are.

    by: Harvard School of Public Health.

    Reported: American Association for the Study of
    Obesity, October 16, 2003

    Who participated: 21 overweight volunteers.

    Two groups were randomly assigned to either lowfat or
    low-carb diets with 1,500 calories for women and 1,800
    for men; a third group was also low-carb but got an
    extra 300 calories a day.

    Method: All the food was prepared at a restaurant in
    Cambridge, Massachusetts. Note that most earlier
    studies including the above Study #1 simply gave out
    diet plans.

    So in this study, dieters were given dinner and a
    bedtime snack as well as breakfast and lunch for the
    next day, which made the setting a carefully
    controlled one. Foods were mostly fish, chicken,
    salads, vegetables and unsaturated oils. Red meats and
    saturated fats were limited (as opposed to traditional
    Atkins menus.)

    All meals looked similar but were cooked to different
    recipes. The low-carb meals were 5% carbs, 15%
    protein, 65% fat. The low fat group got 55%
    carbohydrate, 15% protein, 30% fat.

    Results:

    1. All dieters lost weight, but those on low carb diet
    lost more than the low fat group -- even while consuming
    MORE calories:

    - Group on lower-cal, low-carb diet lost an average of 23
    lbs.
    - Group on same-calories low-fat diet lost an average of
    17 lbs.
    - Group on extra 300 calories, low-carb diet lost an
    average of 20 lbs.

    2. Over the course of the study, the group of low carb
    dieters who got an extra 300 calories a day consumed extra 25,000
    calories. That should have added up to
    about seven pounds. But for some reason, it did not.
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------------

    You'll see that protein is the same in both cases... 15%, so one cannot pinpoint the metabolic advantage stemming from protein. I agree with you, Bobo, in the fact that encorporating resistance training makes this a different story, as well as whether or not subjects are obese, HOWEVER, whether or not ketogenic diets give metabolic advantages should be independent to these facts, when all other factors are held the same.

    Not taking either side in this... I'm currently on a CKD and questioning the validity of it. Just trying to fish out the right answers.
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    That study is horrible.


    They lost more WEIGHT, not fat. The difference is 6lbs which is easily contributed to glycogen and water loss.

    Where are the skin fold measurements and bf% differences? The study is on overweight people and intended for the obese. Obese patients tend to be insulin resistant. Did they screen for that? THis has nothing to do with active athletes and says nothing about metabolic rates.


    And why wouldn't you bring Lyle into this? He is the most prominent advocate of CKD's giving what he learned from Dan Duchaine. If the man admits there isn't any metbolic advantages from ketosis, why would you suspect him to lie about it? All you have to do is take any college level nutrition course to know these facts.

    Ketosis does not increase metbolic rate or increase triglyceride breakdown. In fact the long term results is drop in leptin levels from a result of carb depletetion which will SLOW DOWN the metabolic rate.


    Protein has the highest thermic values of any nutrient. It takes more calories to breadown protein than anything and if the intake is high enough it will have a significant impact on metabolic rate.
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    Diet induced thermogenesis measured over 24h in a respiration chamber: effect of diet composition.

    Westerterp KR, Wilson SA, Rolland V.

    Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, The Netherlands.

    OBJECTIVE: To study the effect of diet composition on diet-induced thermogenesis (DIT) over 24h in a respiration chamber. SUBJECTS: Eight healthy female volunteers (age 27 +/- 3 y; body mass index, BMI 23 +/- 3 kg/m2). DIETS: A high protein and carbohydrate (HP/C) (6030; percentage energy (E%)carbohydrate, fat and protein, respectively) and high fat (HF) (30:60:10 respectively) diet, both isoenergetic, isovolumetric, composed of normal food items and matched for organoleptic properties (taste, smell, appearance). DESIGN: Subjects spent two 36h periods each in a respiration chamber consuming both test diets in random order. Components of 24h energy expenditure (24h EE): sleeping metabolic rate, DIT and activity induced energy expenditure were measured. RESULTS: DIT was higher in all subjects while on the HP/C diet (1295 kJ/d vs 931 kJ/d; 14.6% vs 10.5% of energy intake; P < 0.02). There was no significant difference in other components or total 24h EE, although there was a trend towards higher EE on the HP/C diet. CONCLUSION: A high protein and carbohydrate diet induces a greater thermic response in healthy individuals when compared to a high fat diet.


    Satiety related to 24 h diet-induced thermogenesis during high protein/carbohydrate vs high fat diets measured in a respiration chamber.

    Westerterp-Plantenga MS, Rolland V, Wilson SA, Westerterp KR.

    Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, The Netherlands.

    OBJECTIVE: Assessment of a possible relationship between perception of satiety and diet-induced thermogenesis, with different macronutrient compositions, in a controlled situation over 24 h. DESIGN: Two diets with different macronutrient compositions were offered to all subjects in randomized order. SETTING: The study was executed in the respiration chambers at the department of Human Biology, Maastricht University. SUBJECTS: Subjects were eight females, ages 23-33 y, BMI 23+/-3 kg/m2, recruited from University staff and students. INTERVENTIONS: Subjects were fed in energy balance, with protein/carbohydrate/fat: 29/61/10 and 9/30/61 percentage of energy, with fixed meal sizes and meal intervals, and a fixed activity protocol, during 36 h experiments in a respiration chamber. The appetite profile was assessed by questionnaires during the day and during meals. Diet induced thermogenesis was determined as part of the energy expenditure. RESULTS: Energy balance was almost complete, with non-significant deviations. Diet-Induced-Thermogenesis (DIT) was 14.6+/-2.9%, on the high protein/carbohydrate diet, and 10.5+/-3.8% on the high fat diet (P < 0.01). With the high protein/high carbohydrate diet, satiety was higher during meals (P < 0.001; P < 0.05), as well as over 24 h (P < 0.001), than with the high fat diet. Within one diet, 24 h DIT and satiety were correlated (r = 0.6; P < 0.05). The difference in DIT between the diets correlated with the differences in satiety (r = 0.8; P < 0.01). CONCLUSION: In lean women, satiety and DIT were synchronously higher with a high protein/high carbohydrate diet than with a high fat diet. Differences (due to the different macronutrient compositions) in DIT correlated with differences in satiety over 24 h.



    The significance of protein in food intake and body weight regulation.

    Westerterp-Plantenga MS.

    Department of Human Biology, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands. m.westerterp@hb.unimaas.nl

    PURPOSE OF REVIEW: To highlight the underexposed but important role of protein in food intake and body weight regulation. RECENT FINDINGS: Protein plays a key role in food intake regulation through satiety related to diet-induced thermogenesis. Protein also plays a key role in body weight regulation through its effect on thermogenesis and body composition. A high percentage of energy from dietary protein limits body weight (re)gain through its satiety and energy inefficiency related to the change in body composition. SUMMARY: Protein is more satiating than carbohydrate and fat in the short term, over 24 h and in the long term. Thermogenesis plays a role in this satiety effect, but the role of satiety hormones still needs to be elucidated. On the short-term 'fast' proteins are more satiating than 'slow' proteins, and animal protein induces a higher thermogenesis than vegetable protein. In the longer term the higher postabsorptive satiety and thermogenesis are sustained irrespective of the protein source. High-protein diets affect body weight loss positively only under ad-libitum energy intake conditions, implying also a decreased energy intake. Body composition and metabolic profile are improved. Additional protein consumption results in a significantly lower body weight regain after weight loss, due to body composition, satiety, thermogenesis, and energy inefficiency, while the metabolic profile improves. Implications from these findings are: for practice, recommendations for increasing the percentage of energy from protein while reducing energy intake; for clinical research, assessment of the paradox of increasing the percentage energy from a highly satiating macronutrient; of the potential roles of protein in a negative and positive energy balance; assessment of possibilities of replacing dietary protein by effective amino acids or peptides that may show a similar impact on body weight regulation.


    Diet induced thermogenesis
    Klaas R Westerterp
    Department of Human Biology, Maastricht University, PO Box 616, 6200 MD Maastricht, The Netherlands


    Results

    Most studies measure diet-induced thermogenesis as the increase in energy expenditure above basal metabolic rate. Generally, the hierarchy in macronutrient oxidation in the postprandial state is reflected similarly in diet-induced thermogenesis, with the sequence alcohol, protein, carbohydrate, and fat. A mixed diet consumed at energy balance results in a diet induced energy expenditure of 5 to 15 % of daily energy expenditure. Values are higher at a relatively high protein and alcohol consumption and lower at a high fat consumption. Protein induced thermogenesis has an important effect on satiety.

    In conclusion, the main determinants of diet-induced thermogenesis are the energy content and the protein- and alcohol fraction of the diet. Protein plays a key role in body weight regulation through satiety related to diet-induced thermogenesis.


    The effects of high protein diets on thermogenesis, satiety and weight loss: a critical review.

    Halton TL, Hu FB.

    Dept. of Nutrition, Harvard School of Public Health, 665 Huntington Ave, Boston, MA 02115, USA. frank.hu@channing.harvard.edu

    For years, proponents of some fad diets have claimed that higher amounts of protein facilitate weight loss. Only in recent years have studies begun to examine the effects of high protein diets on energy expenditure, subsequent energy intake and weight loss as compared to lower protein diets. In this study, we conducted a systematic review of randomized investigations on the effects of high protein diets on dietary thermogenesis, satiety, body weight and fat loss. There is convincing evidence that a higher protein intake increases thermogenesis and satiety compared to diets of lower protein content. The weight of evidence also suggests that high protein meals lead to a reduced subsequent energy intake. Some evidence suggests that diets higher in protein result in an increased weight loss and fat loss as compared to diets lower in protein, but findings have not been consistent. In dietary practice, it may be beneficial to partially replace refined carbohydrate with protein sources that are low in saturated fat. Although recent evidence supports potential benefit, rigorous longer-term studies are needed to investigate the effects of high protein diets on weight loss and weight maintenance.




    rotein turnover and thermogenesis in response to high-protein and high-carbohydrate feeding in men.

    Robinson SM, Jaccard C, Persaud C, Jackson AA, Jequier E, Schutz Y.

    Institute of Physiology, University of Lausanne, Switzerland.

    The rates of energy expenditure and wholebody protein turnover were determined during a 9-h period in a group of seven men while they received hourly isocaloric meals of high-protein (HP) or high-carbohydrate (HC) content. Their responses to feeding were compared with those to a short period of fasting (15-24 h). The 9-h thermic response to the repeated feeding of HP meals was found to be greater than that to the HC meals (9.6 +/- 0.6% vs 5.7 +/- 0.4% of the energy intake, respectively, means +/- SEM, p less than 0.01). The rate of whole-body nitrogen turnover over 9 h increased from 17.6 +/- 2.2 g on the fasting day to 27.4 +/- 1.4 g during HC feeding (NS) and there was a further increase to 58.2 +/- 5.3 g resulting from HP feeding (p less than 0.001). By using theoretical estimates (based upon ATP requirements) of the metabolic cost of protein synthesis, 36 +/- 9% of the thermic response to HC feeding and 68 +/- 3% of the response to HP feeding could be accounted for by the increases in protein synthesis compared with the fasting state.
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    That is just the tip of the iceberg....
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    That is just the tip of the iceberg....
    I like your iceberg

    Feel free to post more of these
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    bobo, how do u manage to catch all of these studies? do u just look them up on the net or do u have some sort of subscription?
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    hmmm... you've convinced me enough to try a 40/40/20. I believe that the benefit that I was having from a keto diet was based on the fact that I am extremely insulin sensitive.

    What about the other benefits of ketogenic diets that are commonly mentioned in support? Higher amounts of HGH, muscle preservation, etc. I believe anabolicminds did a good article on it... you were right -- the thermogenic response was not listed, but they did show a lot of benefits from running a ketogenic diet. Comments would be appreciated.
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    If you are insulin sensitive I'd say, why not just use insulin when it is appropriate and when it will help you the most. Time your carbs for when you need them and need the insulin response, i.e. PWO, PPWO. I think there may be some benefits of a keto diet but basically they are unnessisary and just plain old frustrating (for me anyways, can't live with out carbs). But one of the most compeling issues surrounding keto diets I think is the issue of brain function. The brain does not process ketones nearly as efficiently as it carbs (glucose). Which means you are more likely to make mental errors at work etc....I'll dig up the study about
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    And lest we forget our friend and ally Leptin
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    IMHO...diet is dependent on bodytype and a multitude of factors..metabolism, digestion, genetics, etc. Diet is more individual rather than uniform. For every study that advocates a high carb there's a study that advocates low carb. The basic principle of calorie control is still the key imho ..more calories in than burned and there's weight gain..and vice versa. Timing of food and quality of food is a major key as well..that's why the rule of 6 smaller meals a day..that being 3 regular and 3 mrp/shakes is advocated. Timing is important since the body slows down toward the evening as well as digestion. Larger meals earlier in the day are recommned due to better digestion powers as well as more physical activity to burn them. Hcl and enzymes are highest in the morning and get depleted during the day. Lifestyle is obviously very important....higher activity allows for more calories...back to the basic principles of higher metabolism and more calories burned.

    There's an interesting phenomenom going on in our country. We've basically gone to a higher refined carb diet and become lazier. Less activity and refined carbs are a big problem. As a result our country is filled with grossly obesely and fat people, which of course is big business for doctors and fitness trainers. One has to ask ...why do we have the fattest people in this country yet we have a gym on every corner and diet candy, soda, etc.? When it comes to diet and bodytype ...one has to look at genetics as well. Genetics play a huge picture in your bodybuilding success...no matter what anyone will tell you. This is expecially true for a natural bodybuilder.

    I personally don't think there's a benefit to extremely low carb dieting..i.e. CDK,etc... except for final cutting to achieve extremely low bodyfat and drop water. When I look at pictures of people like Lyle and Duchaine...I seriously have to laugh. I also laugh when I see these fitness gurus and trainers in gyms who are all talk (bookworms) and no quality muscle or physique to speak of..whatever happened to put your money where your mouth is? or do as you tell others?... Neither Lyle nor Duchaine had any serious muscle to speak of...in fact both look small and runty. Take a look at their measurements and size. Is this what you're looking for? wimpy and weak? This reminds me of a book called "Brawn", written by a skinny guy aka pencilneck selling a book on how to gain size and muscle...cough cough. What a joke!

    The great things about carbs is that there are so many types and variances and each can be used at different stages of a diet and depending on all the factors I listed above...bodytype, genetics, digestion, etc.

    All this is imho of course!

    Regards,
    Storm
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    Storm,

    Couldn't agree with you more. Seems like everyone is just looking for an easy way out (not directed at you Aldrich). Someone says hey look eat bacon, cheese, fat, steak and lose weight and people hop all over it like its the messiah of diets. I'm always amazed to see how lazy Americans are, we want to get maximum results and put in no work. But the scarey thing I'm starting to notice is all these kids today that sit around pound Cokes and Ring Dings while the sit and watch tv and play videogames for hours upon hours. We are heading for disaster if people don't step up and help out these people we are going to become a county of grossly overwieght Diabetics. It seems as if we already are but things are only getting worse. And to tell you the truth I don't see things getting any better!
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    To both of you
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    Quote Originally Posted by Storm
    For every study that advocates a high carb there's a study that advocates low carb.

    Not really.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AldrichAStern
    hmmm... you've convinced me enough to try a 40/40/20. I believe that the benefit that I was having from a keto diet was based on the fact that I am extremely insulin sensitive.

    What about the other benefits of ketogenic diets that are commonly mentioned in support? Higher amounts of HGH, muscle preservation, etc. I believe anabolicminds did a good article on it... you were right -- the thermogenic response was not listed, but they did show a lot of benefits from running a ketogenic diet. Comments would be appreciated.
    I have heard so many people state they are insulin sensityive only to be shown how wrong they are.

    Higher amounts of GH? Never seen that. Muscle preservation? Myth. Carbs are more protein sparing the fats.

    They showed benefits of a low carb diet to those who are obese. Obese subjects have a completely different metabolism and utilize fats and carbs differently than most. Its WHY they are obese and tend to be diabetic (or much closer to it) as well. If you check Pubmed there are many studies showing the different metabolic effects or lean (normal) vs. obese.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsl
    bobo, how do u manage to catch all of these studies? do u just look them up on the net or do u have some sort of subscription?
    Years of reading and knowing what to look for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Not really.
    no offense bobo..i know your top dog here but who cares if it's 30/70 or 40/60...the rest of my post is much more important than being off by 10% or 20% on studies. I don't care about studies. I care about real life and real results and there's plenty of studies that try to disprove the effectiveness of steroids as well..maybe 40/60..again who cares...anyone in this game long enough knows they work!

    ...anyone claiming to know "the routine" or "the diet" that works universally for the majority seriously doesn't understand the concept of personal genetics and hereditary factors, etc.

    ...I wish to add Dr. Null to my previous post....he's another clueless Dr. with a zillion studies ..he's the vegetarian who looks like a walking dead person and half woman and claims to be a guru on health. Lets throw that "know your real age" Dr. in there...he looks twice his age...he must know what he's talking about! and let's not forget our favorite new diet guru..Dr. Phil!..surely he has a ton of studies and must know what he's talking about!

    oh I jest all these diet and fitness gurus!..I'm sure they're all well meaning Dr's and they all have so many studies to back them up...aha

    Regards,
    Storm
    Last edited by Storm; 05-17-2005 at 03:41 PM. Reason: correction
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