Protein intake when on and off cycle

[Syr]

This may sound a noob question, but after reading half a dozen books, there isnt any concordance on the amount of proteins a bodybuilder should take.

Suggested amounts range from as low as 0.9g x LB to 2g x LB. And to raise such amount up to the double when on AAS. Studies are controversial, but it seems most are in the 1-1.5g/lb range.

Personally I take 1g x LB (2.2g x Kg), which is a good amount of my overall calories (yes I'm small).

I would like to hear Bobo and other expert nutritionists, in particular on raising protein intake when on cycle

[DR.D]

I'm no Bobo, but I think he'd agree that protein over 30% of total diet is wasted, except in the most extreme dietary cheating. And that's on juice. 20-25% is the most a normal off cycle person needs.

[XxCrisisxX]

Typically, when I'm off I don't go over 1 gram/lb. Trust me, there's no need too. But when "on," it's a totally different story. Personally, I eat near 2 grams/lbm.

There was a discussion over at bodyrecomposition.com (lyle's site) about this exact issue and Lyle made many good points.

Just a couple of things to consider

1. Less than half of ingested protein even gets past the liver. So our lifter eating 150 g protein per day is only getting maybe 65-70 grams past the liver to the muscles in the ifrst place. Cut that in half and you get even less. Technically speaking, the human body only needs like 20-25 grams of protein at basal levels. But since half gets broken down by the liver, you have to double that (RDA =~ 48-55 grams per day) in the first place.

2. Protein is not being used at a 1:1 ratio for protein synthesis. I couldn't find the value right now but, in animals at least, it's something like 4-5 g protein to get 1 g muscle protein. 20% efficiency or thereabouts (don't swear me to this, memory faulty). So our guy synthesizing one pound per week of muscle (120 g or so) may need 480-600 grams of extra protein above basal needs to begin with, then you have to deal with the liver issue. Ramp up protein synthesis with steroids and protein needs to up that much more.

I'd say, if one wants to maximize his cycle, eat 2 grams/lbm.

"Dude, who needs protein when you've got Dbol?"

[glenihan]

i personally try to stay around 2 grams/pound of bodyweight while i'm bulking .. i'm a believer in lots of protein (from whole foods with shakes only upon waking, pre and post workout for only a total of 100 grams of the 400 grams i take in a day)

[Syr]

I'm no Bobo, but I think he'd agree that protein over 30% of total diet is wasted, except in the most extreme dietary cheating. And that's on juice. 20-25% is the most a normal off cycle person needs.

So you are suggesting a P/C/F ratio of about 25/60/15? or sort of?
I find very difficult to eat more than 50% of my required daily calorie intake from carbs. I'm going to use good cheat meals, like oats powder to go close to that.

BTW, I count proteins only and calories to get to my total. I find easier this way and also I can meet my goals.

So, the common brotelligence is to double the protein intake on cycle? (1g to 2g or similar)?

[Syr]

1. Less than half of ingested protein even gets past the liver. So our lifter eating 150 g protein per day is only getting maybe 65-70 grams past the liver to the muscles in the ifrst place.

What one could take to improve protein syntesis, short of AAS?

For some time i used some digestive enzymes (high in protease), but i believe that helps only the first pass in the stomach.

Ideas?

[DR.D]

The absolute influence of anabolics on nitrogen excretion lessens with decreased protein content of the diet. That being said, the nitrogen retaining effects can't be potentiated indefinately just by increasing protein content. Increasing protein content from 20% to 40% while keeping calories equal (carb substitution) does not result in any more nitrogen retention than does the original 20%. So there is basically a window. I do 30% just to be safe, but any more that that is wasted and taxing to the body.

[XxCrisisxX]

The only thing that comes to mind is maybe a low dose of thyroid hormones. Something around 25mcg's of t3 every 2-3 days (it has a 2.5 day half-life). I always like to incorpoarte into my bulking cycles. Seems to help partion calories better and keeps me a little leaner.

[Syr]

The absolute influence of anabolics on nitrogen excretion lessens with decreased protein content of the diet. That being said, the nitrogen retaining effects can't be potentiated indefinately just by increasing protein content. Increasing protein content from 20% to 40% while keeping calories equal (carb substitution) does not result in any more nitrogen retention than does the original 20%. So there is basically a window. I do 30% just to be safe, but any more that that is wasted and taxing to the body.

Dr.D the point for me is that if i would take only 30% of my calories intake, i would not get 1g of protein per lb.
So, as i said i go for xxx grams of proteins per day and the rest from carbs and fat to meet my cals. And that equals to roughly 40%.

BTW, on cycle raising proteins AND calories is the right thing to do

[exnihilo]

there are no studies of the effects of extremely high protein intake on steroid using bodybuilders. There are some good studies done on natural athletes that seem to indicate that about 1.8g/kg is sufficient. Even the researchers who performed said research (in this case lemon I think) admit that it is possible that there are long term adaptations that take place in response to higher protein intakes than that or with more intense training, given the popularity of extreme high protein diets with athletes.