Bobo your thoughts

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    Bobo your thoughts


    As you know im not on low carb anymore,
    I was sick and tired of feeling like ass all the time,however I did loose alot of fat.Now I also want to get away from simple carbs after workout.Dextrose,Malto,powerad e after a workout bloated the hell out of me,not to mention I felt like I swollowed a brick..Bobo I have read your take on complex carbs for PWO and I want to try that.I love Basmati (white) Rice and cooked carrots,I want to use these in my diet would PWO be a good time..and what is rthe skinny on carrots I know they are high glycemic but they cant be that bad...Thanks

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    sounds like you got the right idea anything starchy will replenish muscle glycogen as oposed to surgary things that restore liver glycogen. Carrots are high glycemic but the GI has some serious problems IMO. Carrots are higher glycemic than say a chocolate chip cookie which means that 50 carbs of carrots is higher glycemic than 50 carbs of cookies but you got to eat quite a bit of carrots for that to happen.
    I woudl stick to bread, oat meal, pasta, rice, and potatoes. If I dotn drink water about 20 minutes before and after a carb intake I usually do not get bloated. try that and see if it works
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    Some things that need to be cleared up:

    Muscle glyocogen replenishment doens't NEED to be as fast as possible. Whether the carb source comes from dextrose, frucutose, sucrose, lactose or whatever, the rate of proteins synthesis remains the same. The negative effects of high GI at large amounts just rear its ugly head over time.

    The GI of carrots compared to chocolate chip cookies does not even remotely look at the overall effects. THe glycemic LOAD of a chocolate chip cookie has much more a profound effect on weight gain than any carrot will.

    If your diet is changing to a more carb based one, don't use the carrots for now. You need to introduce carbs back slowly and smartly. No need to go overboard.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Some things that need to be cleared up:

    Muscle glyocogen replenishment doens't NEED to be as fast as possible. Whether the carb source comes from dextrose, frucutose, sucrose, lactose or whatever, the rate of proteins synthesis remains the same. The negative effects of high GI at large amounts just rear its ugly head over time.

    The GI of carrots compared to chocolate chip cookies does not even remotely look at the overall effects. THe glycemic LOAD of a chocolate chip cookie has much more a profound effect on weight gain than any carrot will.

    If your diet is changing to a more carb based one, don't use the carrots for now. You need to introduce carbs back slowly and smartly. No need to go overboard.

    Thanks Bobo I will take baby steps here because I am carb sensitive,but I am much fuller and a hell of alot more energy than before..

    Thanks Monkey for the response..much appreciated
    Last edited by MaDmaN; 09-13-2004 at 06:20 PM.
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    Whatever you do MadMan take Bobo's advice and slowly introduce carbs. I did the exact opposite and slammed into a bulking phase right after a low-carb cut and gained a ton of weight. Unfortunately its all around my midsection. Bobo's hard at work getting rid of it, but it would have much been better not to slap it on at all. Please, Please, Please for your own good take it slow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Some things that need to be cleared up:

    Muscle glyocogen replenishment doens't NEED to be as fast as possible. Whether the carb source comes from dextrose, frucutose, sucrose, lactose or whatever, the rate of proteins synthesis remains the same. The negative effects of high GI at large amounts just rear its ugly head over time.

    The GI of carrots compared to chocolate chip cookies does not even remotely look at the overall effects. THe glycemic LOAD of a chocolate chip cookie has much more a profound effect on weight gain than any carrot will.

    If your diet is changing to a more carb based one, don't use the carrots for now. You need to introduce carbs back slowly and smartly. No need to go overboard.
    Agreed.

    Hey Madman if you seem to be carb sensitive I woudl check out a book it is called Natural Hormonal enhancement. It tackles many issues one being insulin resistivity and sensitivity. You migth want to take a look at it I read it last spring break and it gave me a different perspective of carbs all together. I "cleaned" up my carb intake big time.
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    That's a great book. Well researched and chock full of References if 100's of studies. I'ts basically a version of CKD, but it's more customizable. I know many people who lost fat on that diet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Some things that need to be cleared up:

    Muscle glyocogen replenishment doens't NEED to be as fast as possible. Whether the carb source comes from dextrose, frucutose, sucrose, lactose or whatever, the rate of proteins synthesis remains the same. The negative effects of high GI at large amounts just rear its ugly head over time.

    The GI of carrots compared to chocolate chip cookies does not even remotely look at the overall effects. THe glycemic LOAD of a chocolate chip cookie has much more a profound effect on weight gain than any carrot will.

    If your diet is changing to a more carb based one, don't use the carrots for now. You need to introduce carbs back slowly and smartly. No need to go overboard.
    Doesn't the amount of insulin post workout dramatically affect protein synthesis?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funny Monkey
    sounds like you got the right idea anything starchy will replenish muscle glycogen as oposed to surgary things that restore liver glycogen.
    Liver glycogen always takes priority over muscle glycogen. It's the first to be filled and the last to be emptied. At least this is what I've been taught.
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    I thougth that you could restore muscle glycogen without much liver glycogen as long as you ate no sugar and just starchy carbs. Probably wrong but just what I thought
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    Thanks guys...Great stuff
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Doesn't the amount of insulin post workout dramatically affect protein synthesis?
    Not normal physiological levels, no. And I'm not talking about no insulin vs. high insulin. I am talking a normal insulin response compared to a very high one. There doesn't seem to be a difference at all. Its amino's that are more imporatn for triggering protein synthesis. Supraphysiological levels of insulin (ie, injecting) does effect it greatly though, but nobody knows why.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Liver glycogen always takes priority over muscle glycogen. It's the first to be filled and the last to be emptied. At least this is what I've been taught.
    No, there are times in which this fluctuates, especially post workout in which its actually reversed somewhat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Funny Monkey
    I thougth that you could restore muscle glycogen without much liver glycogen as long as you ate no sugar and just starchy carbs. Probably wrong but just what I thought
    Guys you are thinking too "black and white". The body doesn't work like that. There are times (such as aerobic or anaerobic activities) iin which the ratios to which they're filled is different.
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    Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

    Costill DL.

    The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.


    Amino acids stimulate translation initiation and protein synthesis through an Akt-independent pathway in human skeletal muscle.

    Liu Z, Jahn LA, Wei L, Long W, Barrett EJ.

    Division of Endocrinology and Metabolism, Department of Internal Medicine, University of Virginia Health Sciences Center, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA. zl3e@virginia.edu

    Studies in vitro as well as in vivo in rodents have suggested that amino acids (AA) not only serve as substrates for protein synthesis, but also as nutrient signals to enhance mRNA translation and protein synthesis in skeletal muscle. However, the physiological relevance of these findings to normal humans is uncertain. To examine whether AA regulate the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle, we infused an AA mixture (10% Travesol) systemically into 10 young healthy male volunteers for 6 h. Forearm muscle protein synthesis and degradation (phenylalanine tracer method) and the phosphorylation of protein kinase B (or Akt), eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1, and ribosomal protein S6 kinase (p70(S6K)) in vastus lateralis muscle were measured before and after AA infusion. We also examined whether AA affect urinary nitrogen excretion and whole body protein turnover. Postabsorptively all subjects had negative forearm phenylalanine balances. AA infusion significantly improved the net phenylalanine balance at both 3 h (P < 0.002) and 6 h (P < 0.02). This improvement in phenylalanine balance was solely from increased protein synthesis (P = 0.02 at 3 h and P < 0.003 at 6 h), as protein degradation was not changed. AA also significantly decreased whole body phenylalanine flux (P < 0.004). AA did not activate Akt phosphorylation at Ser(473), but significantly increased the phosphorylation of both eukaryotic initiation factor 4E-binding protein 1 (P < 0.04) and p70(S6K) (P < 0.001). We conclude that AA act directly as nutrient signals to stimulate protein synthesis through Akt-independent activation of the protein synthetic apparatus in human skeletal muscle.




    Physiological hyperinsulinemia stimulates p70(S6k) phosphorylation in human skeletal muscle.

    Hillier T, Long W, Jahn L, Wei L, Barrett EJ.

    Department of Internal Medicine, Division of Endocrinology, University of Virginia School of Medicine, Charlottesville, Virginia 22908, USA.

    Using tracer methods, insulin stimulates muscle protein synthesis in vitro, an effect not seen in vivo with physiological insulin concentrations in adult animals or humans. To examine the action of physiological hyperinsulinemia on protein synthesis using a tracer-independent method in vivo and identify possible explanations for this discrepancy, we measured the phosphorylation of ribosomal protein S6 kinase (P70(S6k)) and eIF4E-binding protein (eIF4E-BP1), two key proteins that regulate messenger ribonucleic acid translation and protein synthesis. Postabsorptive healthy adults received either a 2-h insulin infusion (1 mU/min.kg; euglycemic insulin clamp; n = 6) or a 2-h saline infusion (n = 5). Vastus lateralis muscle was biopsied at baseline and at the end of the infusion period. Phosphorylation of P70(S6k) and eIF4E-BP1 was quantified on Western blots after SDS-PAGE. Physiological increments in plasma insulin (42 +/- 13 to 366 +/- 36 pmol/L; P: = 0.0002) significantly increased p70(S6k) (P: < 0.01), but did not affect eIF4E-BP1 phosphorylation in muscle. Plasma insulin declined slightly during saline infusion (P: = 0.04), and there was no change in the phosphorylation of either p70(S6k) or eIF4E-BP1. These findings indicate an important role of physiological hyperinsulinemia in the regulation of p70(S6k) in human muscle. This finding is consistent with a potential role for insulin in regulating the synthesis of that subset of proteins involved in ribosomal function. The failure to enhance the phosphorylation of eIF4E-BP1 may in part explain the lack of a stimulatory effect of physiological hyperinsulinemia on bulk protein synthesis in skeletal muscle in vivo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.
    Ok help me out here sucrose is a combination of glucose and fructose. Fructose comes mainly from fruit. Glucose would be the product of say potatoes, pasta and rice. Correct?

    According to this if I am glycogen depleted and eat a bunch of apples and some brownies I would get the same muscle glycogen restoration benefits as opposed to eating a bowl of rice?
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    Glucose is the product of ALL carbohyrdates. How fast its broken down might be different dependgin on the food item but the eventual results of all carbs is glucose.

    As for the second question, yes, but the brownies would have much more negative result in other areas than a bowl of rice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Glucose is the product of ALL carbohyrdates. How fast its broken down might be different dependgin on the food item but the eventual results of all carbs is glucose.

    As for the second question, yes, but the brownies would have much more negative result in other areas than a bowl of rice.
    yeah I have read that before so I guess that it breaks down in the liver?
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    actually digestion of carbs starts in the mouth..
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    Very true.


    The biggest part of actual absortion and the breakdown of chemical bonds occurs mostly in the small intestine.
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    Technically digestion of everything begins in the mouth. The process of grinding foods with your teeth is "mechanical" digestion. But yes, the chemical break down of only carbohydrates begins in the mouth. Amylase, found in saliva and in pancreatic and intestinal juices, break down carbohydrates. Different types of amylase break down different sugars. Lactase breaks down lactose (milk sugar), maltase breaks down maltose (malt sugar), and sucrase breaks down sucrose (cane and beet sugar).

    This is basic physiology. Who do I sound like?
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieTrying
    Technically digestion of everything begins in the mouth. The process of grinding foods with your teeth is "mechanical" digestion. But yes, the chemical break down of only carbohydrates begins in the mouth. Amylase, found in saliva and in pancreatic and intestinal juices, break down carbohydrates. Different types of amylase break down different sugars. Lactase breaks down lactose (milk sugar), maltase breaks down maltose (malt sugar), and sucrase breaks down sucrose (cane and beet sugar).

    This is basic physiology. Who do I sound like?
    You sound like Bobo! This is basic (fill in the blank).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Carbohydrate nutrition before, during, and after exercise.

    Costill DL.

    The role of dietary carbohydrates (CHO) in the resynthesis of muscle and liver glycogen after prolonged, exhaustive exercise has been clearly demonstrated. The mechanisms responsible for optimal glycogen storage are linked to the activation of glycogen synthetase by depletion of glycogen and the subsequent intake of CHO. Although diets rich in CHO may increase the muscle glycogen stores and enhance endurance exercise performance when consumed in the days before the activity, they also increase the rate of CHO oxidation and the use of muscle glycogen. When consumed in the last hour before exercise, the insulin stimulated-uptake of glucose from blood often results in hypoglycemia, greater dependence on muscle glycogen, and an earlier onset of exhaustion than when no CHO is fed. Ingesting CHO during exercise appears to be of minimal value to performance except in events lasting 2 h or longer. The form of CHO (i.e., glucose, fructose, sucrose) ingested may produce different blood glucose and insulin responses, but the rate of muscle glycogen resynthesis is about the same regardless of the structure.[/b]
    Just in regards to that highlighted in bold, how pronounced of an effect is this? Assuming that you can stomach the food without it coming back up halfway through the session, would the effects of hypoglycemia be that noticeable? I normally eat my meal 1-1.5hrs before I'm in the gym, I'm fine throughout... only when I get home and finish my PW meal I start feeling really tired and want to hit the sack, though the feeling goes away after a while

    What then would be the effects of a meal void of carbs pre workout? (not necessarily replacing those calories with that of fat)

    Also, as glycogen resynthesis isn't dependent on the type of carb ingested, would postponing the intake of carbs to say, 2hrs after have an effect?

    A little o/t... but what effects would different kinds of protein have? Say having a hydrolysed whey and eating solid food
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    Quote Originally Posted by xil
    Just in regards to that highlighted in bold, how pronounced of an effect is this? Assuming that you can stomach the food without it coming back up halfway through the session, would the effects of hypoglycemia be that noticeable? I normally eat my meal 1-1.5hrs before I'm in the gym, I'm fine throughout... only when I get home and finish my PW meal I start feeling really tired and want to hit the sack, though the feeling goes away after a while

    What then would be the effects of a meal void of carbs pre workout? (not necessarily replacing those calories with that of fat)

    Also, as glycogen resynthesis isn't dependent on the type of carb ingested, would postponing the intake of carbs to say, 2hrs after have an effect?

    A little o/t... but what effects would different kinds of protein have? Say having a hydrolysed whey and eating solid food

    1. It shouldn't be that bad at all. In the study they used a glucose solution so in essence you will have a crash. So if you are consuming food that give a more sustained release (food tends to do that anyway) there shouldn't be much of a crash during your workout.

    2. A crappy workout.

    3. No. Just because its the same for different carb sources doesn't mean that it doens't have any effect on protein synthesis. You WANT glyocgen storage but the difference is the a rapid rate of storage hasn't been shown to have a different effect than a slower rate. Delaying glycgoen storage is just unwise.

    4. It depends on the situation. THe more catabolic the more a need for quicker replenishment of amino's. At least one scoop of Whey is wise in ANY condition however.
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