Skim Milk

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Actually TEF, was not ever talked about in my entry level Nutrition class. I first learned about it on my own.
    As a continual student, I'd appreciate if you point out what you do agree with. Until now thought you were disagreeing with everything. I still need you to explain how TEF influences which fuel the body chooses for it's main source. TEF is an effect that comes after the fuel utilization, not before. The food must first be digested before there is an TEF. It sounded like you said TEF is somehow an influencing factor of the TCA cycle. Maybe I misinterpreted.
    It's really hard to have these debates over the computer. So much can be taken the wrong way, misinterpreted, spelled wrong, and become victims of typo...Nevertheless I know everyone has learned something here.
    No I wasn't disagreeing with everything. Not at all. As for explaining the TEF, give me some time. Thats is a whole differnt subject, like leptin. Its often overlooked and deemed insignificant. In reality it would be if you followed FDA guideline but most here don't even come close, so its much more a factor.

    As for TEF and TCA, I was talking about two seperate things after you brought exercise into the picture.

    I can't beleive they didn't gove over TEF and energy metabolism in your nutrition class. That stinks. Look for some more advanced classes then take some graduate level classes (after your prerequisites) if you feel you can handle the load.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.


  2. I'd like to know where IHateGymMorons is getting his information from?

    I worked for one of the top exercise physiologists and nutritionists at U of M, and trained with pre-Olympic athletes at this time. My mentor, Dr. Charles Kuntzleman, also gave nutritonal advice to our University track team, and worked with Arnold "The Oak" on creating optimal nutrition and exercise plans for the Nation's public schools (sadly, none of which have been followed).

    I never once saw anyone "loading" on fats, nor did I ever hear any caution about eating carbs before bed. In fact, a lot of what my mentor's work did was de-bunk the Atkins book...of course, this was 20 years ago, and you can see how our short-term our social memory is.

    The carb-craze sells books and overpriced food products...high carbs let me run a half mile in under 1:50.
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You would at a much slower rate which is more condusive to fat storage because its extremely energy dense and will get stored easier (since your metabolism slows a great bit during REM sleep). In other words, they will burn both so your recommendatrion for not using carbs is ridiculous. Fats get stored faster than carbs do into adipose cells so what you are saying in that carbs aren;t utlized is COMPLETELY false.

    In fact they will get oxidized quicker and removed quicker than fats so your are REALLY wrong on this one.

    You can do either of them in the right amounts but saying carbs do not get utilized is just pure fiction.
    If there's glycogen to be stored, why would the body burn all incoming carbs before it had a chance to top off glycogen. What you say sounds like all incoming carbs are burned no matter what. How can you fill up glycogen stores if all carbs are burned 5x faster than anything else? I just need you to clear this up for me.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by Brodus
    I'd like to know where IHateGymMorons is getting his information from?

    I worked for one of the top exercise physiologists and nutritionists at U of M, and trained with pre-Olympic athletes at this time. My mentor, Dr. Charles Kuntzleman, also gave nutritonal advice to our University track team, and worked with Arnold "The Oak" on creating optimal nutrition and exercise plans for the Nation's public schools (sadly, none of which have been followed).

    I never once saw anyone "loading" on fats, nor did I ever hear any caution about eating carbs before bed. In fact, a lot of what my mentor's work did was de-bunk the Atkins book...of course, this was 20 years ago, and you can see how our short-term our social memory is.

    The carb-craze sells books and overpriced food products...high carbs let me run a half mile in under 1:50.
    So then your a track star...Track atheletes need to eat more carbs than your typical bodybuilder. Never once did I say to "load fats". I'm just making a case for 200lb bodybuilders possibly needing more than the RDA. Are you a fat phobic? It's proven that too many carbs eaten late at night can severely reduce GH output during sleep. Once again, I'm not trying to promote Atkins, I'm just trying to tell people that it's stupid to lower fat intake down to 20-30g to lose fat. I hope nobody here would advocate that.
    If you train hard, choose your foods wisely and get the timing right, you can reach 6-7% BF with 70-80g fat easily. At least this has been my experience. I'm not saying it applies to everyone.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    If there's glycogen to be stored, why would the body burn all incoming carbs before it had a chance to top off glycogen. What you say sounds like all incoming carbs are burned no matter what. How can you fill up glycogen stores if all carbs are burned 5x faster than anything else? I just need you to clear this up for me.
    Glyocgen stores turnover at a rate of about every 2-3 hours. Its almost never completely full. They are not "topped" off. If energy is not needed in great amounts the first macronutrient to be oxidized is carbs, not fats.

    The body doens't pick one usage for carbs. Carbs are utilized in many functions compared to fats.

    And if your diet is adequate and planned properly, yes all carbs are used in some fashion. Fats OTOH are not.

    This is basic nutrition. Instead of getting your "facts" from low carb sites and message boards, please read the published literature first. Until you do, you have already shown not to understand what is going on.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    It's proven that too many carbs eaten late at night can severely reduce GH output during sleep. At least this has been my experience. I'm not saying it applies to everyone.
    Prove it. Show me the study. Because the only ones showing anything relevant to this was done in diabetics in a state of hypoglycemia in which the gh pulse also increase the levels of cortisol. In other words, in normal people your statement means nothing.

    Growth hormone-releasing hormone facilitates hypoglycemia-induced release of cortisol.

    Perras B, Schultes B, Schwaiger R, Metz C, Wesseler W, Born J, Fehm HL.

    Department of Neuroendocrinology, University of Lubeck, Lubeck, Germany. [email protected]


    Inhibition of sleep-induced growth hormone secretion: no effect on diabetic control.

    Davidson MB, Peters AL.

    Publication Types:

    * Comment
    * Letter


    PMID: 2257001 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



    Some aspects of circadian variations of carbohydrate metabolism and related hormones in man.

    Sensi S.

    Publication Types:

    * Review


    PMID: 4619798 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]






    Now if you want to use those studies done on NORMAL people then you might find this one interesting.

    Growth Hormone Secretion during Sleep
    Y. Takahashi, D. M. Kipnis, and W. H. Daughaday

    Washington University School of Medicine, Department of Medicine, Metabolism Division, St. Louis, Missouri 63110

    This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

    Abstract


    Plasma growth hormone (GH), insulin, cortisol, and glucose were measured during sleep on 38 nights in eight young adults. Blood was drawn from an indwelling catheter at 30-min intervals; EEG and electrooculogram were recorded throughout the night. In seven subjects, a plasma GH peak (13-72 mμg/ml) lasting 1.5-3.5 hr appeared with the onset of deep sleep. Smaller GH peaks (6-14 mμg/ml) occasionally appeared during subsequent deep sleep phases. Peak GH secretion was delayed if the onset of sleep was delayed. Subjects who were awakened for 2-3 hr and allowed to return to sleep exhibited another peak of GH secretion (14-46 mμg/ml). Peak GH secretion was not correlated with changes in plasma glucose, insulin, and cortisol. The effects of 6-CNS-active drugs on sleep-related GH secretion were investigated. Imipramine (50 mg) completely abolished GH peaks in two of four subjects, whereas chlorpromazine (30 mg), phenobarbital (97 mg), diphenylhydantoin (90 mg), chlordiazepoxide (20 mg), and isocarboxazid (30 mg) did not inhibit GH peaks. Altered hypothalamic activity associated with initiation of sleep results in a major peak of growth hormone secretion unrelated to hypoglycemia or changes in cortisol and insulin secretion.


    This is what I mean by posting statements that are COMPLETELY false.

    As for your other statements, it doesnt apply to everyone and quite frankly at 24, your experience is not that much. I could get to 6-7% at 24 without trying.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  7. Maybe you should read these:


    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1972 Oct;35(4):592-4. Related Articles, Links

    Inhibition of sleep related growth hormone release by elevated free fatty acids.

    Lipman RL, Taylor AL, Schenk A, Mintz DH.

    PMID: 5052978 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1972 Sep;35(3):407-12. Related Articles, Links

    The effect of elevated free fatty acids (FFA) on the sleep-induced human growth hormone (HGH) peak.

    Lucke C, Adelman N, Glick SM.

    PMID: 5051363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1971 Jan;32(1):65-9. Related Articles, Links

    Human growth hormone release in sleep: nonsuppression by acute hyperglycemia.

    Parker DC, Rossman LG.

    PMID: 5539028 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




    There is no carb fairy.....let it go.....
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  8. I've always thought that elevated blood sugar inhibited GH release to a degree. These studies led me to believe that:
    European Journal of Applied Physiology; 80 (2), 92-99, 1999.
    Journal of Applied Physiology; 76 (2), 839-845, 1994.

    They showed that drinking carb infused drinks during endurance exercise increased blood insulin which correlated with decreased blood GH. If it's doing it DURING exercise when the body is very sensitive to insulin, and normally releases GH naturally, then I speculated that it must be worse right before bed at the end of the day when you're naturally a little less insulin sensitive...

    Choosing the wrong carbs and/or too many carbs, could affect affect the first couple GH spikes during sleep. The first peak during sleep is the largest secretion too. OTOH elevated FFA's have been shown to inhibit GH secretion too. I'm not promoting a large fatty meal before bed, gotta get that straight. I believe you can eat carbs before bed, but it shouldn't be 50-60g, and they should be low GI. I never said "don't eat carbs", I said to beware of "too many" and should've added "the wrong kinds".

    Bobo- what's your idea of a good pre-sleep meal, just curious? Most people would say some cottage cheese with a little EFA's... Just wondering how your recommendation would differ in light of your fondness of carbs.

  9. Not during sleep.


    The response of the body during exercise is not the same during sleep or in normal feeding patterns for that matter.

    And what are those studies? You are just listing pages. What are the studies that those pages reference.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Glyocgen stores turnover at a rate of about every 2-3 hours. Its almost never completely full. They are not "topped" off. If energy is not needed in great amounts the first macronutrient to be oxidized is carbs, not fats.

    The body doens't pick one usage for carbs. Carbs are utilized in many functions compared to fats.

    And if your diet is adequate and planned properly, yes all carbs are used in some fashion. Fats OTOH are not.

    This is basic nutrition. Instead of getting your "facts" from low carb sites and message boards, please read the published literature first. Until you do, you have already shown not to understand what is going on.

    "And if your diet is adequate and planned properly, yes all carbs are used in some fashion. Fats OTOH are not."

    I agree, planning is critical here.
    You say that "all carbs are used in some fashion"...to the average person reading this, that sounds like carbs are immune from turning into fat. Surely you acknowledge the fact and possibility that excess carbs can contribute to fat gain independent of fat intake. I'm not saying there's some magic number of carbs, and if you exceed it, then you get fat...I'm just saying that it happens.

    BTW, I don't read or participate in "low carb message boards" or websites. I don't even know what one of those would be...atkins.com maybe??? I don't know why you continually label me an Atkins proponent when I've said and agreed with dozens of things that are anti-low-carb

  11. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons

    I never said "don't eat carbs", I said to beware of "too many" and should've added "the wrong kinds".

    "You will not burn carbs during sleep."


    Yes you did.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons

    BTW, I don't read or participate in "low carb message boards" or websites. I don't even know what one of those would be...atkins.com maybe??? I don't know why you continually label me an Atkins proponent when I've said and agreed with dozens of things that are anti-low-carb[/B]
    Because you repeat exactly what they say.


    I tihnk it is in your best interest to go back and read some of those studies before continuing on. I already suggested to read up some more because you are still stating things that are completely false.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    I've always thought that elevated blood sugar inhibited GH release to a degree. These studies led me to believe that:
    European Journal of Applied Physiology; 80 (2), 92-99, 1999.
    Journal of Applied Physiology; 76 (2), 839-845, 1994.

    I suppose this is the study you presented for stating GH is reduced during sleep because of carbs?


    R. M. Chandler, H. K. Byrne, J. G. Patterson, and J. L. Ivy
    Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise
    J Appl Physiol 76: 839-845, 1994


    This study has nothing to do with sleep at all or anything resebling GH pulses during times of REM sleep.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I could get to 6-7% at 24 without trying.
    Wow, you are certainly blessed with good genetics. Most guys who don't try, actually look like they don't try.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    "You will not burn carbs during sleep."


    Yes you did.
    That was one of my overgeneralized statements, that isn't 100% true. Sorry. I did however say the word "too many" right before that I think. That all goes back to my statements that carbs are preferentially burned during higher intensity activities. Sleep isn't high intensity, so that's why I made that statment. Yes carbs are used during sleep, we agreed that all fuels are used to some degree simultaneously.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I suppose this is the study you presented for stating GH is reduced during sleep because of carbs?


    R. M. Chandler, H. K. Byrne, J. G. Patterson, and J. L. Ivy
    Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise
    J Appl Physiol 76: 839-845, 1994


    This study has nothing to do with sleep at all or anything resebling GH pulses during times of REM sleep.
    Yes, the studies didn't focus on sleep though. It did find that elevated blood glucose lowered GH, which leads me to believe that nothing is stopping it from happenning at night either. Still, you may have proved my previous statement wrong. Perhaps the signal to release GH during sleep is so strong that even a little blood sugar couldn't stop it. This is very possible.

  17. Its not that its strong, its that it is responding to different stimuli via differnt pathways. In the human body, there is hardly ever ONE cause and effect.
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Wow, you are certainly blessed with good genetics. Most guys who don't try, actually look like they don't try.
    I wouldn't say I had great genetics. You could look at my before pic in my forum and see that. Its that my metabolism was still flying high at that age.
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