Skim Milk

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  1. I hope I don't sound grumpy, but I am. These damn hurricanes are driving me nuts.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.


  2. holy hell i am never going three days without looking at a thread ever again! a lot of info to read..


    I have a question though. I am confused, too, in a sense the same way Chunky is confused. I have always thought lower carbs at night whether they are low on the II scale or not are not good to eat at night and that fats at night are a better way to go along with some proteins. Is this a bad way to go?

    Also, what about things like eggs. I have always used the entire egg to help add calories (when bulking) and to get some added protein during breakfast etc and i would try not to eat too many carbs with them. Should I eliminate using the entire egg and increase egg whites then add in oatmeal instead? This thread has seriously kicked my butt because I was fairly lean and bulking good but I definitely couldn't get to the really low b/f percentages and I eat fairly low carbs, mostly just milk carbs, oatmeal, and multi grain bread, but not high amounts..
    PharmD
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    1. Of course fat are always being broken down but there is a certain amount within the bloodstream that triggers the body not release stores triglycerides and the more you increase dietary fat, the more you go over this threshhold and the less tryglycerides will be be released.

    2. It doesn't have to be balanced. Insulin suppresses glucagon peroid. I don't know what kind of balance you are referring too. Nobody ever said maximum glycgoen is possible...Who said that? The glucose economy? Oh know, its Rob Thoburn again.

    3. You said the insulin response is larger. The response is based on the GI, not II.

    4. Low fat diets don't work? Are you kidding me? Every competitive BB'er eliminates fat to a point pre contest. I have had my best results on low fat diets (you can see my pic) and I used to preach low carb diets left and right. They work to a point and are not healthy for long term. I have clients right now that have done every CKD and low carb diet in existence and the story is the SAME. They stall. At your age I could eat taco bell and lose weight but when you start hitting the age where you NEED to worry about certain things, a low fat diet will give you much better results in getting to low bf%. You can ask any client of mine that, even the competitors I train. They most certainly work and they work very well.

    5. The body will hold on to stored fats (not dietary. that doesn't make sense) in any fasting state whether its from dietary fat or lack of carbs. THe key to this is provide enough nutrients to where you are not in a fasting state. There is a reason pre contest diets that I design taper everything in very small increments.

    6. MCT's are broken down faster but it still doesn't eliminate the the increase in circulating FFA's and the metabolic effects the occur after. The body react to an increase in FFA's by decreasing HSL. THis is NOT what you want when dieting. They will have the least amount of effect compared to other fats but you generally want to avoid this as much as possible.

    7. Glucagon works by increasing HSL (hormone sensitive lipase) which are enzymes that breakdown stored tryglycerides. Decrease carbs an increase fat intake and HSL will drop. Inother words the glucagon won't help in releasing stored fat.
    #2 By "balance" I don't mean that the two are secreted at equal levels constantly, I mean that sometimes you need insulin and sometimes you rely on glucagon to do it's job. One shouldn't dominate the other all the time. You can't have high insulin all the time. The body doesn't like to burn FFA in the presence of insulin- especially high levels.

    Glucose economy, yeah I guess I must've first heard that term from him. Anyways, what it means is that the body's capacity to store glycogen is limited, if you go over, then fat accumulation isn't far behind. I only pointed it out because we're talking about dieting, and if there even is such a thing as "maximum glycogen" levels than you're not going to have them when you diet.

    #3 GI is used to predict how fast glucose enters the bloodstream which predicts how fast and how much insulin will rise at a given time...am I wrong? II is based on how much total insulin is released. I'm pretty sure you can agree with this.

    #4 Low fat diets compromise optimum hormone levels. They work for a while because of the accompanying calorie drop. Define low for me, I've "heard" of BBer's droping fat to like 20-30g. This is freaking ridiculous. If you can get away with this than you are definitely on some juice. I'm mostly speaking for the guys that go natural.
    Define "low fat". Are you talking 60-70g or like 20-30? Maybe your definition of low isn't as low as I might think?...
    I'm glad you got ripped on it, though. Lots of people can get ripped on many different diets if you're training is excellent. My theory on diets is that the best one will allow you to train twith the most intensity possible while dropping fat. This is not a low calorie/low fat, CKD or Atkins, I assure you. When your training suffers, so will your body. Find what works for you.

    #5 Did I say dietary? If so I meant bodyfat.

    #6 True, but I was just making a point in reference to you saying that fat is too slow. It's not evidence to drop out carbs or anything like that.

    #7 You're right here, very interesting that the body knows to do this. I love this subject. I'm not arguing that one needs to flood there body with fat, just that you need to give it sufficient amounts, whatever that me be for you. If you're eating so much fat that you hinder HSL and triglycerides are never burned, than you're absolutely right, why have glucagon then?

  4. Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    holy hell i am never going three days without looking at a thread ever again! a lot of info to read..


    I have a question though. I am confused, too, in a sense the same way Chunky is confused. I have always thought lower carbs at night whether they are low on the II scale or not are not good to eat at night and that fats at night are a better way to go along with some proteins. Is this a bad way to go?

    Also, what about things like eggs. I have always used the entire egg to help add calories (when bulking) and to get some added protein during breakfast etc and i would try not to eat too many carbs with them. Should I eliminate using the entire egg and increase egg whites then add in oatmeal instead? This thread has seriously kicked my butt because I was fairly lean and bulking good but I definitely couldn't get to the really low b/f percentages and I eat fairly low carbs, mostly just milk carbs, oatmeal, and multi grain bread, but not high amounts..
    None of this has been evidence supporting the intake of carbs for sleep. Stick with some protein and fat. The fat may not blunt the small amount of insulin that's released from your Cottage Cheese or what have you, but it will provide a fuel and help spared the protein. You will not burn carbs during sleep.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Thats what I said in the last 5 posts.


    Hormone Sensitive Lipase

    Its the enzyme within adipose cells that break triglycerides into fatty acids and its glycerol component. Increase fat intake, HSL reduces and LPL (lipoprotein Lipase) increases. This is the enzyme that converts FFA's into sotred triglycerides. Increase insulin along with that and you have serisou storage of fat. Have a steady stable stream with an environment of low FFA's in the blood and you have a good amount of HSL breaking down triglycerides to be released into the bloodstream to be oxidized.

    If people don't understand these concepts, they will not know WHY low carb, mod-high fat diets will stall out and become very counterproductive.
    I'm not sure the above is evidence why low carb diets fail, but nevertheless you're right. During low carb, it's a fact that more fat is burned. The body adapts to low carb diets (to a degree) and will burn more fat than it would in the presence of significant carb intake. The HSL argument mostly applies to when you are eating carbs. Low carb diets fail for other reasons than blunted HSL.

    You can try and reduce HSL all day long, but if you're in a caloric deficit, you'll still lose fat. Once again just in case anyone thinks I'm some Atkins freak and I'm promoting no carb diets, I'm not. I assure you. This has been a great thread. Skim milk, was it? Ha ha.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    #2 By "balance" I don't mean that the two are secreted at equal levels constantly, I mean that sometimes you need insulin and sometimes you rely on glucagon to do it's job. One shouldn't dominate the other all the time. You can't have high insulin all the time. The body doesn't like to burn FFA in the presence of insulin- especially high levels.

    Glucose economy, yeah I guess I must've first heard that term from him. Anyways, what it means is that the body's capacity to store glycogen is limited, if you go over, then fat accumulation isn't far behind. I only pointed it out because we're talking about dieting, and if there even is such a thing as "maximum glycogen" levels than you're not going to have them when you diet.

    #3 GI is used to predict how fast glucose enters the bloodstream which predicts how fast and how much insulin will rise at a given time...am I wrong? II is based on how much total insulin is released. I'm pretty sure you can agree with this.

    #4 Low fat diets compromise optimum hormone levels. They work for a while because of the accompanying calorie drop. Define low for me, I've "heard" of BBer's droping fat to like 20-30g. This is freaking ridiculous. If you can get away with this than you are definitely on some juice. I'm mostly speaking for the guys that go natural.
    Define "low fat". Are you talking 60-70g or like 20-30? Maybe your definition of low isn't as low as I might think?...
    I'm glad you got ripped on it, though. Lots of people can get ripped on many different diets if you're training is excellent. My theory on diets is that the best one will allow you to train twith the most intensity possible while dropping fat. This is not a low calorie/low fat, CKD or Atkins, I assure you. When your training suffers, so will your body. Find what works for you.

    #5 Did I say dietary? If so I meant bodyfat.

    #6 True, but I was just making a point in reference to you saying that fat is too slow. It's not evidence to drop out carbs or anything like that.

    #7 You're right here, very interesting that the body knows to do this. I love this subject. I'm not arguing that one needs to flood there body with fat, just that you need to give it sufficient amounts, whatever that me be for you. If you're eating so much fat that you hinder HSL and triglycerides are never burned, than you're absolutely right, why have glucagon then?

    1. I don't think you understand these concpets. You are not making sense with your statements on glucagon and/or insulin. One almost always dominates over the other. They both are secreted by the pancreas and both are never present in large amounts together. They do 2 completely different things and they are at the oppsite end of the spectrum. This is basic.

    2. The glucose economy supports carbohydrate usage, not fat. Read the New Glucose Revolution.

    3. GI value tells you only how fast a carbohydrate converts into glucose. The faster this happens, the faster the insulin response.

    4. Low fat diets do NOT compromise hormone levels, low carb diets do. This is a PROVEN FACT. Check any study on leptin, HSL, cAMP, LPL, T4, T3 and thyroid output. ALL support a low fat higher carb diet because they keep glycogen stores fuller and in turn help signal the fed state which produced favorable hormone levels for all of the above. Low carb diet compromises all of those MUCH faster. I don't know where you are getting your facts from but they are wrong. I'm glad I got ripped on it too and I'm glad the competitors I traing do to. Ask any competitor and he will tell you the same. Ask any pro and he will tell you the same. I already have an work with competitors already and also coverse with some pro's that train in my local gym. These are tried and true concepts and if I told them to drop carbs for a prolonged peroid of time they would laugh.

    5. Your theory on diet is highly flawed with innacurate statements. They simply are not true and any Advanced Nutrition class on the college or graduate level, especially those that cover energy metabolism, will show you this.

    6. Yes you said dietary.

    7. It is evidence, you just don't seem to want to except the reason why even they are backed by science. You are completely ignoring the basic concepts of energy metabolism.

    8. THe problem is the sufficient amounts are very small. All you have to do is search on the amount of 3,6,9's you need and you will realize it is VERY small compared to what is recommended on these boards. 1 Tablspoon of Flax has more than enough EPA and DHA than most people will ever needn in one day.

    9. ANY dietary fat hinders HSL AND cAMP. These are basci physiological facts that are in your text.

    10. Why have glucagon? You dont want to! Glucagon's main role is faciliate the breakdown of glyocgen into glucose. What happens when glycogen storage is already low? Muscle wasting. Come on man, this is basic stuff.


    I enjoy these converstations too but you really need to check what you're typing here. You are going against basic physiological facts which do not change for anyone. If you don't understand these concepts then you will not understand WHY you are wrong on several things. I am not ripping on you or anything but I am encouraging you to look this stuff up. If you want some suggestions for texts I would more than happy give you some as I have several here that are GREAT reads. They cover this (which is really basic) and go into much more detail to the point that I have trouble understanding what they are saying.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    I'm not sure the above is evidence why low carb diets fail, but nevertheless you're right. During low carb, it's a fact that more fat is burned. The body adapts to low carb diets (to a degree) and will burn more fat than it would in the presence of significant carb intake. The HSL argument mostly applies to when you are eating carbs. Low carb diets fail for other reasons than blunted HSL.

    You can try and reduce HSL all day long, but if you're in a caloric deficit, you'll still lose fat. Once again just in case anyone thinks I'm some Atkins freak and I'm promoting no carb diets, I'm not. I assure you. This has been a great thread. Skim milk, was it? Ha ha.
    See this is what I'm talking about. You are not even comprehending what is being said. This is the main reason WHY they fail because leptin drops, cAMP drops and HSL is therefore decreased drastically. You will NOT release fat withouth adequate enzymes to faciliate their breakdown. This is caused be prolonged glyocogen depletion. What happens after that? The fed state slowly turns into the starved state and fat loss will stop no matter how many calories you drop. Please refer to leptin as to the reason why.

    It is NOT a fact that during a low car diet more fat is burned. I don't know where you are getting these so called "facts" from but they are completely wrong. Even the Duke study that backed this point was shown to be highly innacurate. It was showed that the release of fat greater but the oxidation rate was not. So guess what happens when they are not oxidized? They are converted right back into triglycerides.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    None of this has been evidence supporting the intake of carbs for sleep. Stick with some protein and fat. The fat may not blunt the small amount of insulin that's released from your Cottage Cheese or what have you, but it will provide a fuel and help spared the protein. You will not burn carbs during sleep.
    So you won't burn carbs during sleep yet you will burn dietary fat? Carbs oxidize at a rate 5x that of fats. Please check the thermic values. Fat is the lowest, protein is the highest. IOW, there is no carb fairy.

    Bro, this is BASIC nutrition.

    Please pick this book up if you really want to know. I don't know if you glycogen depleted right now but your are getting basic nutritional concepts wrong. I'm telling you if you read this book, you will tahnk me a million times over. Its a GREAT read.

    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    by James L. Groff
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  9. GODAMN HURRICANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    by James L. Groff
    Can you believe that I was actually dumb enough to look up this book for reading? It cost $140!!!

    I guess I will just keep reading the board

  11. Quote Originally Posted by 5111
    Can you believe that I was actually dumb enough to look up this book for reading? It cost $140!!!

    I guess I will just keep reading the board
    $65 on Amazon.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by BOBO
    Fats slow digestion only if attached to a food and its actually a fat (not oil). Oils that are added do NOT slow digestion.
    So flax seed oil does not slow digestion if you put it in a shake? Sucks.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    1. I don't think you understand these concpets. You are not making sense with your statements on glucagon and/or insulin. One almost always dominates over the other. They both are secreted by the pancreas and both are never present in large amounts together. They do 2 completely different things and they are at the oppsite end of the spectrum. This is basic.

    2. The glucose economy supports carbohydrate usage, not fat. Read the New Glucose Revolution.

    3. GI value tells you only how fast a carbohydrate converts into glucose. The faster this happens, the faster the insulin response.

    4. Low fat diets do NOT compromise hormone levels, low carb diets do. This is a PROVEN FACT. Check any study on leptin, HSL, cAMP, LPL, T4, T3 and thyroid output. ALL support a low fat higher carb diet because they keep glycogen stores fuller and in turn help signal the fed state which produced favorable hormone levels for all of the above. Low carb diet compromises all of those MUCH faster. I don't know where you are getting your facts from but they are wrong. I'm glad I got ripped on it too and I'm glad the competitors I traing do to. Ask any competitor and he will tell you the same. Ask any pro and he will tell you the same. I already have an work with competitors already and also coverse with some pro's that train in my local gym. These are tried and true concepts and if I told them to drop carbs for a prolonged peroid of time they would laugh.

    5. Your theory on diet is highly flawed with innacurate statements. They simply are not true and any Advanced Nutrition class on the college or graduate level, especially those that cover energy metabolism, will show you this.

    6. Yes you said dietary.

    7. It is evidence, you just don't seem to want to except the reason why even they are backed by science. You are completely ignoring the basic concepts of energy metabolism.

    8. THe problem is the sufficient amounts are very small. All you have to do is search on the amount of 3,6,9's you need and you will realize it is VERY small compared to what is recommended on these boards. 1 Tablspoon of Flax has more than enough EPA and DHA than most people will ever needn in one day.

    9. ANY dietary fat hinders HSL AND cAMP. These are basci physiological facts that are in your text.

    10. Why have glucagon? You dont want to! Glucagon's main role is faciliate the breakdown of glyocgen into glucose. What happens when glycogen storage is already low? Muscle wasting. Come on man, this is basic stuff.


    I enjoy these converstations too but you really need to check what you're typing here. You are going against basic physiological facts which do not change for anyone. If you don't understand these concepts then you will not understand WHY you are wrong on several things. I am not ripping on you or anything but I am encouraging you to look this stuff up. If you want some suggestions for texts I would more than happy give you some as I have several here that are GREAT reads. They cover this (which is really basic) and go into much more detail to the point that I have trouble understanding what they are saying.
    #1 Nothing I said in the last post stated that glucagon and insulin are the same. In fact I stated how they are different and you need both at different times. I say different because you're right, they both can't be present in high levels at the same time. This is basic. I haven't argued this.

    #2 I know. I wasn't using the book to promote an Atkins diet. I was just using the term "glucose economy" as I believe it's defined.

    #3 It seems like we keep echoing each other with this, just repeating the same thing. What you said here doesn't in anyway contradict what I last posted.

    #4 Low fat diets have been proven to affect Testosterone levels. Low fat diets can also promote high insulin swings if you're not careful. I agree with you about low carb diet's effects. Also at no time have I stated one needs to drop carbs or follow a prolonged low carb diet. I would never tell any pro at your gym to do that. We should just talk about things I've actually said. Don't get me wrong, there are some people out there, usually non-athelets, that could stand to drop a few carb grams.

    #5 My "theory" is based on my own personal philosophy. When I'm dieting for fat loss, I want to find the best diet - the one that will allow the least drop of intensity in training. You won't read this in any textbook. This is not even a "theory" about a specific diet, so I don't know how you can say its wrong when it doesn't even talk about a particular diet.

    #6 Oh, my mistake.

    #7 What is "they"? I'm not igonoring energy metabolism, I'm wholeheartedly agreeing with 99% of what you say.

    #8 The conversion of EPA and DHA is VERY small in flax seed oil, possibly only 10%. It becomes less as you age as you lose the enzyme responsible for conversion. My flax oil bottle (Barlean's brand) says it has 11g fat per 1Tbsp. So you're saying that 1.1g is enough? Is this optimal? It may be enough, but I really think there are tons of benefits if you increase it. BTW, in case someone is wondering, fish oil doesn't have to go through these conversions and is a better source of EPA/DHA.
    Many things recommended on these boards are higher than the RDA, and for good reason too. Increasing n-3 suppresses cytokine which can decrease the production of cortisol glucocorticoids therefore suppressing cortisol. This is GOOD. Furthermore one needs to increase n-3 just to help balance out the 6:3 ratio. An imbalanced ratio is not optimal and there are many health risk associated with this. Basically increasing n-3 can promote anabolism! There are also a host of anti-inflammatory actions associated with increasing this intake and/or decreasing n-6.

    #9 True, but if you're on a hypo caloric diet it won't matter. You're still going to lose fat. That's basic energy metabolism. It's not necessarily the BEST way, but you'll lose fat on any hypocaloric diet.

    10# Dude, I want glucagon. "Why have glucagon" was just a sarcastic/rhetorical question. You've got to read it in context with everything else I said. I was saying that if you're on a diet high in carbs and insulin is constantly being secreted because you eat 6-7 times per day, than glucagon will not have much of a role, and you won't be taking advantage if it's benefits. I'll say it once again so nobody misreads me:
    YOU NEED INSULIN, YOU NEED GLUCAGON, THE DO COMPLETEY DIFFERENT THINGS, AT DIFFERENT TIMES, THEY BOTH HAVE GOOD AND BAD EFFECTS, LEARN TO MANIPULATE THEM!

    That's a really great book I've heard. I don't own any textbooks of that nature right now, but I'll have to get a hold of one just for reference.

    Also if I say anything that sound like I'm promoting low car diets, I'm not. I'm playing Devil's advocate a little, and merely point out other possibilities and considerations. I still want to know what you define "low fat" to be. To me, you start getting into the low fat category when you hit around 50-60g for a 80-90kg man.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    See this is what I'm talking about. You are not even comprehending what is being said. This is the main reason WHY they fail because leptin drops, cAMP drops and HSL is therefore decreased drastically. You will NOT release fat withouth adequate enzymes to faciliate their breakdown. This is caused be prolonged glyocogen depletion. What happens after that? The fed state slowly turns into the starved state and fat loss will stop no matter how many calories you drop. Please refer to leptin as to the reason why.

    It is NOT a fact that during a low car diet more fat is burned. I don't know where you are getting these so called "facts" from but they are completely wrong. Even the Duke study that backed this point was shown to be highly innacurate. It was showed that the release of fat greater but the oxidation rate was not. So guess what happens when they are not oxidized? They are converted right back into triglycerides.
    I've read on numerous studies, that low carb diets of the same caloric value as a low fat diet, result in more weight loss. They both lose fat weight, but the low carb tends to beat it by a significant margin - at least until you stall out.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    So you won't burn carbs during sleep yet you will burn dietary fat? Carbs oxidize at a rate 5x that of fats. Please check the thermic values. Fat is the lowest, protein is the highest. IOW, there is no carb fairy.

    Bro, this is BASIC nutrition.

    Please pick this book up if you really want to know. I don't know if you glycogen depleted right now but your are getting basic nutritional concepts wrong. I'm telling you if you read this book, you will tahnk me a million times over. Its a GREAT read.

    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    by James L. Groff
    Why wouldn't you burn dietary fat during 8-9 hours of sleep?

    Your body proportionately metabolizes more fat at rest. This is fact. It doesn't matter that carbs burn 5x faster. Just the same, aerobic exercise proportionately burns more fat than high intensity activities. In fact up to 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories! This is because you spend lots of time resting between sets. If there's any time of day where one can guarantee a high % of fat usage, it's during sleep. Eating carbs for a pre-bed meal will have no physiological benefit - unless you happened to train like right before bedtime. If the body never found a time where it preferred fat fuel, than you would never be able to store glycogen and you'd be constantly depleting no matter what.
    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your body chooses to oxidize. This is unrelated. Thermic values are a good thing, carbs have higher values than fat for sure, but it's useless in determing when to eat what as far as macronutrient choice goes.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    #1 Nothing I said in the last post stated that glucagon and insulin are the same. In fact I stated how they are different and you need both at different times. I say different because you're right, they both can't be present in high levels at the same time. This is basic. I haven't argued this.

    #2 I know. I wasn't using the book to promote an Atkins diet. I was just using the term "glucose economy" as I believe it's defined.

    #3 It seems like we keep echoing each other with this, just repeating the same thing. What you said here doesn't in anyway contradict what I last posted.

    #4 Low fat diets have been proven to affect Testosterone levels. Low fat diets can also promote high insulin swings if you're not careful. I agree with you about low carb diet's effects. Also at no time have I stated one needs to drop carbs or follow a prolonged low carb diet. I would never tell any pro at your gym to do that. We should just talk about things I've actually said. Don't get me wrong, there are some people out there, usually non-athelets, that could stand to drop a few carb grams.

    #5 My "theory" is based on my own personal philosophy. When I'm dieting for fat loss, I want to find the best diet - the one that will allow the least drop of intensity in training. You won't read this in any textbook. This is not even a "theory" about a specific diet, so I don't know how you can say its wrong when it doesn't even talk about a particular diet.

    #6 Oh, my mistake.

    #7 What is "they"? I'm not igonoring energy metabolism, I'm wholeheartedly agreeing with 99% of what you say.

    #8 The conversion of EPA and DHA is VERY small in flax seed oil, possibly only 10%. It becomes less as you age as you lose the enzyme responsible for conversion. My flax oil bottle (Barlean's brand) says it has 11g fat per 1Tbsp. So you're saying that 1.1g is enough? Is this optimal? It may be enough, but I really think there are tons of benefits if you increase it. BTW, in case someone is wondering, fish oil doesn't have to go through these conversions and is a better source of EPA/DHA.
    Many things recommended on these boards are higher than the RDA, and for good reason too. Increasing n-3 suppresses cytokine which can decrease the production of cortisol glucocorticoids therefore suppressing cortisol. This is GOOD. Furthermore one needs to increase n-3 just to help balance out the 6:3 ratio. An imbalanced ratio is not optimal and there are many health risk associated with this. Basically increasing n-3 can promote anabolism! There are also a host of anti-inflammatory actions associated with increasing this intake and/or decreasing n-6.

    #9 True, but if you're on a hypo caloric diet it won't matter. You're still going to lose fat. That's basic energy metabolism. It's not necessarily the BEST way, but you'll lose fat on any hypocaloric diet.

    10# Dude, I want glucagon. "Why have glucagon" was just a sarcastic/rhetorical question. You've got to read it in context with everything else I said. I was saying that if you're on a diet high in carbs and insulin is constantly being secreted because you eat 6-7 times per day, than glucagon will not have much of a role, and you won't be taking advantage if it's benefits. I'll say it once again so nobody misreads me:
    YOU NEED INSULIN, YOU NEED GLUCAGON, THE DO COMPLETEY DIFFERENT THINGS, AT DIFFERENT TIMES, THEY BOTH HAVE GOOD AND BAD EFFECTS, LEARN TO MANIPULATE THEM!

    That's a really great book I've heard. I don't own any textbooks of that nature right now, but I'll have to get a hold of one just for reference.

    Also if I say anything that sound like I'm promoting low car diets, I'm not. I'm playing Devil's advocate a little, and merely point out other possibilities and considerations. I still want to know what you define "low fat" to be. To me, you start getting into the low fat category when you hit around 50-60g for a 80-90kg man.


    You are stating things trhat just don't make sense and are completely false. I have already pointed them out to you but for some you are not getting them. If you do not have the texts, I suggest you get them because you are butchering basci nutritional facts.

    You recommendations for the use omega's is right on, now go find how much you need to get those benefits. Its EXTREMELY small. Nobody is saying to to eliminate them but 1 tablspoon of Flax will do the job. Its in the literature backed by studies. Look it up and see how much linolenic acid you need to get the the amounts of EPA and DHA. And no this is NOT the RDA. You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right? I hope we don't have to go into lipid metabolism.

    THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa.

    Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon. You don't want it around peroid unless you want glycgoen to be broken down for fuel (in other words creating a catabolic environment).

    If you don't own any of the texts, please get something and read. You are not making sense with half the things you type.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    I've read on numerous studies, that low carb diets of the same caloric value as a low fat diet, result in more weight loss. They both lose fat weight, but the low carb tends to beat it by a significant margin - at least until you stall out.
    No, your wrong again. The low carb diet lost more "weight" but when fat oxidation was looked at they both were the same in SENDETARY people. Now put thise people on an exercise program and glucose becomes MUCH more dependent. All you have to do is look the studies up. It was conducted by Duke. If you want to argue thses points you need to understand them first. Releasing triglycerides means nothing unless you oxidize them. With an abundant amount of FFA's brought on by these types of diets you will NOT oxidize them quick enough. It sounds like you are getting your information from every low carb site out there withouth understanding what you are typing.
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  18. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Why wouldn't you burn dietary fat during 8-9 hours of sleep?

    Your body proportionately metabolizes more fat at rest. This is fact. It doesn't matter that carbs burn 5x faster. Just the same, aerobic exercise proportionately burns more fat than high intensity activities. In fact up to 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories! This is because you spend lots of time resting between sets. If there's any time of day where one can guarantee a high % of fat usage, it's during sleep. Eating carbs for a pre-bed meal will have no physiological benefit - unless you happened to train like right before bedtime. If the body never found a time where it preferred fat fuel, than you would never be able to store glycogen and you'd be constantly depleting no matter what.
    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your body chooses to oxidize. This is unrelated. Thermic values are a good thing, carbs have higher values than fat for sure, but it's useless in determing when to eat what as far as macronutrient choice goes.

    Please, you don't even know what you are talking about here. Have no physiological effect? Are you crazy? Please go look up when optinal protein synthesis and hormone levels are released (BESIDES post workout) Carbs faciliate these hormone releases and aid in protein synthesis by keeping glycogen stores full and in the FED state. Fats DO NOT! You are so insulin scared its ridiculous. You are preaching what most low carb dieters preach who don't have a clue how the body works.

    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your chooses to oxidize?!!?!?!?!?!! OMG..... Thermic values are directly proportional to food energy intake and reflect the bodies absortion and digestion activities and is HIGHLY influenced by composition. In other words it digests and absords those foods that are higher FIRST, and fat LAST. You are completely ignoring the basics of energy metabolism AGAIN.

    You are BUTCHERING basic facts here.

    Serisouly what sort of classes have you taken?

    I'm done with this until you understand some basci facts. There is no point in continuing until you have read something. I don't know where you are getting your information from but you are highly mistaken.


    I suggest you talk to your professor because glyocgen is the main source of energy during exercise, especially resistance training and high intensity cardio. Fat is burned yes but glycogen is the main fuel source.

    DO you even know what the TCA cycle is?
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  19. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Why wouldn't you burn dietary fat during 8-9 hours of sleep?

    Your body proportionately metabolizes more fat at rest. This is fact. It doesn't matter that carbs burn 5x faster. Just the same, aerobic exercise proportionately burns more fat than high intensity activities.
    You would at a much slower rate which is more condusive to fat storage because its extremely energy dense and will get stored easier (since your metabolism slows a great bit during REM sleep). In other words, they will burn both so your recommendatrion for not using carbs is ridiculous. Fats get stored faster than carbs do into adipose cells so what you are saying in that carbs aren;t utlized is COMPLETELY false.

    In fact they will get oxidized quicker and removed quicker than fats so your are REALLY wrong on this one.

    You can do either of them in the right amounts but saying carbs do not get utilized is just pure fiction.
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  20. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You are stating things trhat just don't make sense and are completely false. I have already pointed them out to you but for some you are not getting them. If you do not have the texts, I suggest you get them because you are butchering basci nutritional facts.

    You recommendations for the use omega's is right on, now go find how much you need to get those benefits. Its EXTREMELY small. Nobody is saying to to eliminate them but 1 tablspoon of Flax will do the job. Its in the literature backed by studies. Look it up and see how much linolenic acid you need to get the the amounts of EPA and DHA. And no this is NOT the RDA. You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right? I hope we don't have to go into lipid metabolism.

    THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa.

    Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon. You don't want it around peroid unless you want glycgoen to be broken down for fuel (in other words creating a catabolic environment).

    If you don't own any of the texts, please get something and read. You are not making sense with half the things you type.
    "THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa."

    What I mean is that one doesn't dominate the other in a 24hour period. They need to take turns like a see-saw. Of course one will dominate the other at times, for example - spiking insulin after a workout. You just misread what I meant by dominate and must've skipped over the part I wrote in ALL CAPS. I must say again, though, that it's very hard to burn fat when insulin levels are significantly high, this is where and why properly timed P+F meals and choosing the right carbs come in handy.

    "You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right?"

    The body doesn't use all the protein we eat for synthesis of new tissue either. Omega 3 consumption should not be limited by how much EPA/DHA the body uses. Omega 3 consumption has more benefits than just it's EPA/DHA. If everything can be accomplished by such small amounts of EPA/DHA then why don't we all just take 2 fish oil capsules and retire the rest of Omega 3's for the day. Then all the other polys can come from n-6 and we can distort our ratio like all the other Americans getting fat.

    "Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon."

    Wha about the word "manipulate" makes you think that I want glucagon to be high. You manipulate/regulate/control/ your diet to get the best effects out of both hormones. You want to use your diet to prevent glucagon getting out of hand. This is what I mean by "manipulate". It's not even an argument that diet greatly affects these hormones. Basic stuff.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    No, your wrong again. The low carb diet lost more "weight" but when fat oxidation was looked at they both were the same in SENDETARY people. Now put thise people on an exercise program and glucose becomes MUCH more dependent. All you have to do is look the studies up. It was conducted by Duke. If you want to argue thses points you need to understand them first. Releasing triglycerides means nothing unless you oxidize them. With an abundant amount of FFA's brought on by these types of diets you will NOT oxidize them quick enough. It sounds like you are getting your information from every low carb site out there withouth understanding what you are typing.
    Actually the studies I've read measured BF%, so we must've read different studies. Actually, at least one of the studies I'm sure came from an NSCA Journal that I receive.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Please, you don't even know what you are talking about here. Have no physiological effect? Are you crazy? Please go look up when optinal protein synthesis and hormone levels are released (BESIDES post workout) Carbs faciliate these hormone releases and aid in protein synthesis by keeping glycogen stores full and in the FED state. Fats DO NOT! You are so insulin scared its ridiculous. You are preaching what most low carb dieters preach who don't have a clue how the body works.

    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your chooses to oxidize?!!?!?!?!?!! OMG..... Thermic values are directly proportional to food energy intake and reflect the bodies absortion and digestion activities and is HIGHLY influenced by composition. In other words it digests and absords those foods that are higher FIRST, and fat LAST. You are completely ignoring the basics of energy metabolism AGAIN.

    You are BUTCHERING basic facts here.

    Serisouly what sort of classes have you taken?

    I'm done with this until you understand some basci facts. There is no point in continuing until you have read something. I don't know where you are getting your information from but you are highly mistaken.


    I suggest you talk to your professor because glyocgen is the main source of energy during exercise, especially resistance training and high intensity cardio. Fat is burned yes but glycogen is the main fuel source.

    DO you even know what the TCA cycle is?
    " Have no physiological effect? Are you crazy?"

    I left out a word in that phrase... I should have wrote "has no beneficial physiological effect". Of course it has a physiological effect, it's food.
    For a pre-sleep meal, you don't need large amounts of carbs. Yes carbs to facilitate protein synthesis, temporarily lower glucagon etc...but if you're worried about your body comp - which the original poster is - you don't want to eat carbs that late unless you train late at night.


    "I suggest you talk to your professor because glyocgen is the main source of energy during exercise, especially resistance training and high intensity cardio. Fat is burned yes but glycogen is the main fuel source."

    [B]Please please don't put silly words in my mouth. No where at any time did I ever state that fat was used to fuel muscle contractions during resistance training. Never did I say that. Glycogen is the main fuel source for the actual contractions, the TCA cycle clearly points that out. Glycogen is not used when your sitting on the bench for 3 minutes between sets or walking or drinking water. I said that approx 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories. This is because of the rest periods, not because of the bench press. I was only saying this to make a point in strengthening my argument that fat is burned during sleep even if carbs are oxidized 5x faster. Sleep does not require a fuel that's burned 5x faster.

    The TEF is merely a measure of how much extra energy/heat is produced in digesting certain foods. If you go walk on a treadmill low intensity for 60 minutes, you're going to burn a extraordinarily large proportion of fat for fuel. I just don't see how the TEF of a given food from a meal 2 hours ago affects this???

    Yes I know what the TCA/citric acid/Krebs/tricarboxylic cycle or what have you is. I need you to explain how the TEF (thermic effect of food) influences which fuel the body chooses to use. My books never taught this. Maybe your book does. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just am not aware this. I'm not trying to get on anyone's nerves, I think this has been a healthy debate and I've learned a lot from your post since I've been a member and I hope you continue to reply to me. I've never claimed to know everything, but I think I do make a few good points based upon the knowledge I do have. This has been a great thread.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    "THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa."

    What I mean is that one doesn't dominate the other in a 24hour period. They need to take turns like a see-saw. Of course one will dominate the other at times, for example - spiking insulin after a workout. You just misread what I meant by dominate and must've skipped over the part I wrote in ALL CAPS. I must say again, though, that it's very hard to burn fat when insulin levels are significantly high, this is where and why properly timed P+F meals and choosing the right carbs come in handy.

    "You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right?"

    The body doesn't use all the protein we eat for synthesis of new tissue either. Omega 3 consumption should not be limited by how much EPA/DHA the body uses. Omega 3 consumption has more benefits than just it's EPA/DHA. If everything can be accomplished by such small amounts of EPA/DHA then why don't we all just take 2 fish oil capsules and retire the rest of Omega 3's for the day. Then all the other polys can come from n-6 and we can distort our ratio like all the other Americans getting fat.

    "Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon."

    Wha about the word "manipulate" makes you think that I want glucagon to be high. You manipulate/regulate/control/ your diet to get the best effects out of both hormones. You want to use your diet to prevent glucagon getting out of hand. This is what I mdan by "manipulate". It's not even an argument that diet greatly affects these hormones. Basic stuff.


    1. You actually can if you diet is adequate and that is VERY easy to do. You are taking conepts and distorting them. All you have to do is find out how much EPA/DHA your body utilizes within a certain range and it is VERY small. Stating the benefits and preaching how we need this and need that withouth knowing how much is needed to accomplish this is done way too much on these boards. You did this with your omega 3 comments.

    2. You said you WANT glucagon. If you understood the metabolic pathways (I aleady have 3 times) and consequences you most certainly do NOT want it. If you want to "manipulate (still doens't make sense) glucagon from getting out of hand then you use carbs, not fat. You keep agreeing with me but then completely reverse your point of view by supporting low carb diets. I've already stated this several times and for some reason you do not want to understand.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    " Have no physiological effect? Are you crazy?"

    I left out a word in that phrase... I should have wrote "has no beneficial physiological effect". Of course it has a physiological effect, it's food.
    For a pre-sleep meal, you don't need large amounts of carbs. Yes carbs to facilitate protein synthesis, temporarily lower glucagon etc...but if you're worried about your body comp - which the original poster is - you don't want to eat carbs that late unless you train late at night.


    "I suggest you talk to your professor because glyocgen is the main source of energy during exercise, especially resistance training and high intensity cardio. Fat is burned yes but glycogen is the main fuel source."

    [B]Please please don't put silly words in my mouth. No where at any time did I ever state that fat was used to fuel muscle contractions during resistance training. Never did I say that. Glycogen is the main fuel source for the actual contractions, the TCA cycle clearly points that out. Glycogen is not used when your sitting on the bench for 3 minutes between sets or walking or drinking water. I said that approx 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories. This is because of the rest periods, not because of the bench press. I was only saying this to make a point in strengthening my argument that fat is burned during sleep even if carbs are oxidized 5x faster. Sleep does not require a fuel that's burned 5x faster.

    The TEF is merely a measure of how much extra energy/heat is produced in digesting certain foods. If you go walk on a treadmill low intensity for 60 minutes, you're going to burn a extraordinarily large proportion of fat for fuel. I just don't see how the TEF of a given food from a meal 2 hours ago affects this???

    Yes I know what the TCA/citric acid/Krebs/tricarboxylic cycle or what have you is. I need you to explain how the TEF (thermic effect of food) influences which fuel the body chooses to use. My books never taught this. Maybe your book does. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just am not aware this. I'm not trying to get on anyone's nerves, I think this has been a healthy debate and I've learned a lot from your post since I've been a member and I hope you continue to reply to me. I've never claimed to know everything, but I think I do make a few good points based upon the knowledge I do have. This has been a great thread.

    1. You keep saying it has no benefitical effect when I clearly show you why it does if you do it in the right amounts. You are flip flopping back and forth like John Kerry. There is no carb fairy. YOu don't get fat by eating carbs before bedtime. The hormonal benefits of carbs far outweight those of fats. Its a scientific FACT. Look it up. Case closed. If you persist on using this arguement at least know what you are talking about. I haven't even gone into the leptin issue. ANyon with a scientific backround will state this. It supports the FED state 10x better than fats ever will.

    2. You said high intensity exercise. High intensity exercise is categoraized in ANY Exercise and Sports Nutrition program as resistant training, HIIT and any activity highly dependent on glucose. So in essence you did say it withouth even understanding that you did. Check the hormonal profile on high intesnity exercise and you will see its almost identical to resistant training. This is what I mean by stating things that make no sense. You don't even know you are doing it.

    I suggest you do a little more research because your body use glyocgen in between sets. Your body doesn't switch modes every second or minute. You heart rate and metabolism takes more the 3 minutes to switch. One you start your training session (weight lifting) glyocgen is the main source until at least 30-60 minutes post exercise. This is also WHY the body secretes GH during this time as a response. High intesntiy exercise does oxidize fat at a faster rate than low intensity exercise but low intensity releases more from stored adipose cells more than exercise. You seem to be mistaken on a lot of concepts here and stating very large generalities.

    I am not putting works into your mouth but do me a favor and earn you degree and take your calsses then come back and read your posts. You will see you are HIGHLY mistaken on many of them. I have already said I am not ripping on you but when you are completely ignoring simple nutrional facts then I have to say something. My books didn't teach me this stuff, my classes over many years have. Books are great for reference but I type this as I know it from my head. Anyone who talks to me on the phone can attest to that.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Sleep does not require a fuel that's burned 5x faster.

    [/B]
    You're right. So stating that your body doesn't utilize carbs during sleep is completely wrong. Fat can be used and so can carbs. Fats are more energy dense andhave a much better change of getting stored in adipose cells. Its very simple but for some reason you believing the the majority of people that post on these boards and have no clue what they are tlaking about.

    If it burns 5x times faster than means its oxidized and used 5x faster which means is will NOT be stored as fat. Its used. Nobody said LARGE amounts. You are the one who stated carbs don't get used which is completey false.
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  26. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    I'm not trying to get on anyone's nerves, I think this has been a healthy debate and I've learned a lot from your post since I've been a member and I hope you continue to reply to me. I've never claimed to know everything, but I think I do make a few good points based upon the knowledge I do have. This has been a great thread.[/B]
    You are not getting on anyone's nerves at all and I will continue to reply to you but you NEED to read up on some of these things because you are just wrong. I will disucss this as much as you want. Its my job. THis is what I do. My results and experience and knowledge allow me to eanr a living. If I was talking out my brownhole I wouldn't be traning people for a living (actually that isn't true, most traininers are idiots). I will rephrase. If I was talking out my brownhole I wouldn't be having the succes I am with my clients.

    You made some points that I have agreed with but you have made some that are just wrong but for some reason don't want to do the reseach and understand why. That is all I ask. It gets redundant when I read your posts and you harp on the same points that are just wrong. I don't how many times I can explain to you why things are wrong. I'm not claiming to know everything but just like most people on these boards people are discussing advanced topicss withtout even understanding the basics. Thermic values and why the body utilizes certain macronutrients is leanred in entry level nutrition. These types of things should be understood before talking about insulin, glucagon, cAMP, HSL, LPL, Leptin, etc.....

    If you don't understand the basics you won't understnad the rest.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    1. You keep saying it has no benefitical effect when I clearly show you why it does if you do it in the right amounts. You are flip flopping back and forth like John Kerry. There is no carb fairy. YOu don't get fat by eating carbs before bedtime. The hormonal benefits of carbs far outweight those of fats. Its a scientific FACT. Look it up. Case closed. If you persist on using this arguement at least know what you are talking about. I haven't even gone into the leptin issue. ANyon with a scientific backround will state this. It supports the FED state 10x better than fats ever will.

    2. You said high intensity exercise. High intensity exercise is categoraized in ANY Exercise and Sports Nutrition program as resistant training, HIIT and any activity highly dependent on glucose. So in essence you did say it withouth even understanding that you did. Check the hormonal profile on high intesnity exercise and you will see its almost identical to resistant training. This is what I mean by stating things that make no sense. You don't even know you are doing it.

    I suggest you do a little more research because your body use glyocgen in between sets. Your body doesn't switch modes every second or minute. You heart rate and metabolism takes more the 3 minutes to switch. One you start your training session (weight lifting) glyocgen is the main source until at least 30-60 minutes post exercise. This is also WHY the body secretes GH during this time as a response. High intesntiy exercise does oxidize fat at a faster rate than low intensity exercise but low intensity releases more from stored adipose cells more than exercise. You seem to be mistaken on a lot of concepts here and stating very large generalities.

    I am not putting works into your mouth but do me a favor and earn you degree and take your calsses then come back and read your posts. You will see you are HIGHLY mistaken on many of them. I have already said I am not ripping on you but when you are completely ignoring simple nutrional facts then I have to say something. My books didn't teach me this stuff, my classes over many years have. Books are great for reference but I type this as I know it from my head. Anyone who talks to me on the phone can attest to that.
    #1 Carbs should be kept low and very low on the GI. Fat can be taken in low amounts. If you've spent all day eating carbs and your glycogen levels are high, then there's a great chance that even a sweet potato can ultimately convert into some fat.
    Carbs and fats both have hormonal benefits that promote anabolism. You seem such a fan of carbs that it looks like you're negative about fats. I still need you to answer what you think "adequate fat intake is". I don't know you're talking about 20g or 75g. I just want to stress that fats, as I'm sure you know, have many very positive effects in the pursuit of enhance body comp and health. How many you need is dependent on your lifestyle and LBM.
    Leptin is influenced by carbs drastically. Everything is not yet known about leptin, but carbs are definitely the trigger. This is the big trouble with low carb diets, the body thinks it starving. Leptin is a huge subject that's highly complex and I'd rather not get into it either. I'm sure we agree on it.

    #2 If I said high intensity exercise, it was purely typo, I meant low intensity. Fats are used at a very high rate during low intensity exercise.
    The body also is capable of metabolizing more than one fuel at a time, is it not? It doesn't have to be ALL carbs or ALL fats. That 60% is what I heard from John Berardi, I never read that in a textbook or anything like that.


    Yes, I need to be more careful with my word choice, I'm kinda rushing through this and it sounds like I've overgeneralized some things. Do you have any studies you could point me to regarding energy metabolism during workouts?

  28. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You're right. So stating that your body doesn't utilize carbs during sleep is completely wrong. Fat can be used and so can carbs. Fats are more energy dense andhave a much better change of getting stored in adipose cells. Its very simple but for some reason you believing the the majority of people that post on these boards and have no clue what they are tlaking about.

    If it burns 5x times faster than means its oxidized and used 5x faster which means is will NOT be stored as fat. Its used. Nobody said LARGE amounts. You are the one who stated carbs don't get used which is completey false.
    Depending on how many you eat, not ALL carbs are oxidized.

  29. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You are not getting on anyone's nerves at all and I will continue to reply to you but you NEED to read up on some of these things because you are just wrong. I will disucss this as much as you want. Its my job. THis is what I do. My results and experience and knowledge allow me to eanr a living. If I was talking out my brownhole I wouldn't be traning people for a living (actually that isn't true, most traininers are idiots). I will rephrase. If I was talking out my brownhole I wouldn't be having the succes I am with my clients.

    You made some points that I have agreed with but you have made some that are just wrong but for some reason don't want to do the reseach and understand why. That is all I ask. It gets redundant when I read your posts and you harp on the same points that are just wrong. I don't how many times I can explain to you why things are wrong. I'm not claiming to know everything but just like most people on these boards people are discussing advanced topicss withtout even understanding the basics. Thermic values and why the body utilizes certain macronutrients is leanred in entry level nutrition. These types of things should be understood before talking about insulin, glucagon, cAMP, HSL, LPL, Leptin, etc.....

    If you don't understand the basics you won't understnad the rest.
    Actually TEF, was not ever talked about in my entry level Nutrition class. I first learned about it on my own.
    As a continual student, I'd appreciate if you point out what you do agree with. Until now thought you were disagreeing with everything. I still need you to explain how TEF influences which fuel the body chooses for it's main source. TEF is an effect that comes after the fuel utilization, not before. The food must first be digested before there is an TEF. It sounded like you said TEF is somehow an influencing factor of the TCA cycle. Maybe I misinterpreted.
    It's really hard to have these debates over the computer. So much can be taken the wrong way, misinterpreted, spelled wrong, and become victims of typo...Nevertheless I know everyone has learned something here.

  30. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    #1 Carbs should be kept low and very low on the GI. Fat can be taken in low amounts. If you've spent all day eating carbs and your glycogen levels are high, then there's a great chance that even a sweet potato can ultimately convert into some fat.
    Carbs and fats both have hormonal benefits that promote anabolism. You seem such a fan of carbs that it looks like you're negative about fats. I still need you to answer what you think "adequate fat intake is". I don't know you're talking about 20g or 75g. I just want to stress that fats, as I'm sure you know, have many very positive effects in the pursuit of enhance body comp and health. How many you need is dependent on your lifestyle and LBM.
    Leptin is influenced by carbs drastically. Everything is not yet known about leptin, but carbs are definitely the trigger. This is the big trouble with low carb diets, the body thinks it starving. Leptin is a huge subject that's highly complex and I'd rather not get into it either. I'm sure we agree on it.

    #2 If I said high intensity exercise, it was purely typo, I meant low intensity. Fats are used at a very high rate during low intensity exercise.
    The body also is capable of metabolizing more than one fuel at a time, is it not? It doesn't have to be ALL carbs or ALL fats. That 60% is what I heard from John Berardi, I never read that in a textbook or anything like that.


    Yes, I need to be more careful with my word choice, I'm kinda rushing through this and it sounds like I've overgeneralized some things. Do you have any studies you could point me to regarding energy metabolism during workouts?

    1. I agree with everything there but the problem is (which I have seen happen over the last 2 years with the low carb craze) is people think you need to consume large amounts, or cut large amounts to ahcieve the benefits. You don't need that much fat to get the benefits you speak of. I am a fan of carbs now because they do so many beneficial things but I a fan of smart carbs at reasonable levels. This is the problem with most of these boards in that people take ti to the extremes withouth understanding why things happen. Fats are VERY beneifical but the amount needed is grossly exaggerated. Lowering carbs can have a great benefit but ketosis is a farce, even Lyle will agree with that. People tihnk you have to lower carbs drastically and you just do not have too. It ALL about regulating them, not cutting them in drastic amounts.

    2. Yes the body uses various sources ALL the time. It never uses just one source but there is a major shift depending on the type of exercise. The higher the intenstiy the more it is dependent on glucose and'or glycogen, even though fat oxidation (not release of stored fat) is increased. OTOH low intesnity is much less reliant on glucose and will actually cause more of a release of stored tryglycerides than high intensity exercise.


    Listen bro, I really am not trying to rip on you or anything. You obviously have shown that you WANT to learn this stuff but the best thing you can is read some basic nutrition books (college texts, not books from Borders..most are horrible). Once you strip all this down into the basics it is SO much easier to understand. You will really see what I am talking about then and you will see the mistakes you've made. Thats ok, you leanr from your mistakes. I used to pro keto all the way until I really dug in and went back to the basics. Once you do that you really see the flaws when it pertains to BB'ers or just active people in general. Even Lyle is leaning to lower fat even though he still holds on to carb cycling.

    As for studies, there are a thousands of them on PubMed. I used to keep a lot of them before my computer crashed when I moved. I haven't begun to try to get them back yet. Most of the are references in most of the texts so when I need one I just get the info there or just go to the various journal pages.
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