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    Quote Originally Posted by 5111
    Can you believe that I was actually dumb enough to look up this book for reading? It cost $140!!!

    I guess I will just keep reading the board
    $65 on Amazon.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BOBO
    Fats slow digestion only if attached to a food and its actually a fat (not oil). Oils that are added do NOT slow digestion.
    So flax seed oil does not slow digestion if you put it in a shake? Sucks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    1. I don't think you understand these concpets. You are not making sense with your statements on glucagon and/or insulin. One almost always dominates over the other. They both are secreted by the pancreas and both are never present in large amounts together. They do 2 completely different things and they are at the oppsite end of the spectrum. This is basic.

    2. The glucose economy supports carbohydrate usage, not fat. Read the New Glucose Revolution.

    3. GI value tells you only how fast a carbohydrate converts into glucose. The faster this happens, the faster the insulin response.

    4. Low fat diets do NOT compromise hormone levels, low carb diets do. This is a PROVEN FACT. Check any study on leptin, HSL, cAMP, LPL, T4, T3 and thyroid output. ALL support a low fat higher carb diet because they keep glycogen stores fuller and in turn help signal the fed state which produced favorable hormone levels for all of the above. Low carb diet compromises all of those MUCH faster. I don't know where you are getting your facts from but they are wrong. I'm glad I got ripped on it too and I'm glad the competitors I traing do to. Ask any competitor and he will tell you the same. Ask any pro and he will tell you the same. I already have an work with competitors already and also coverse with some pro's that train in my local gym. These are tried and true concepts and if I told them to drop carbs for a prolonged peroid of time they would laugh.

    5. Your theory on diet is highly flawed with innacurate statements. They simply are not true and any Advanced Nutrition class on the college or graduate level, especially those that cover energy metabolism, will show you this.

    6. Yes you said dietary.

    7. It is evidence, you just don't seem to want to except the reason why even they are backed by science. You are completely ignoring the basic concepts of energy metabolism.

    8. THe problem is the sufficient amounts are very small. All you have to do is search on the amount of 3,6,9's you need and you will realize it is VERY small compared to what is recommended on these boards. 1 Tablspoon of Flax has more than enough EPA and DHA than most people will ever needn in one day.

    9. ANY dietary fat hinders HSL AND cAMP. These are basci physiological facts that are in your text.

    10. Why have glucagon? You dont want to! Glucagon's main role is faciliate the breakdown of glyocgen into glucose. What happens when glycogen storage is already low? Muscle wasting. Come on man, this is basic stuff.


    I enjoy these converstations too but you really need to check what you're typing here. You are going against basic physiological facts which do not change for anyone. If you don't understand these concepts then you will not understand WHY you are wrong on several things. I am not ripping on you or anything but I am encouraging you to look this stuff up. If you want some suggestions for texts I would more than happy give you some as I have several here that are GREAT reads. They cover this (which is really basic) and go into much more detail to the point that I have trouble understanding what they are saying.
    #1 Nothing I said in the last post stated that glucagon and insulin are the same. In fact I stated how they are different and you need both at different times. I say different because you're right, they both can't be present in high levels at the same time. This is basic. I haven't argued this.

    #2 I know. I wasn't using the book to promote an Atkins diet. I was just using the term "glucose economy" as I believe it's defined.

    #3 It seems like we keep echoing each other with this, just repeating the same thing. What you said here doesn't in anyway contradict what I last posted.

    #4 Low fat diets have been proven to affect Testosterone levels. Low fat diets can also promote high insulin swings if you're not careful. I agree with you about low carb diet's effects. Also at no time have I stated one needs to drop carbs or follow a prolonged low carb diet. I would never tell any pro at your gym to do that. We should just talk about things I've actually said. Don't get me wrong, there are some people out there, usually non-athelets, that could stand to drop a few carb grams.

    #5 My "theory" is based on my own personal philosophy. When I'm dieting for fat loss, I want to find the best diet - the one that will allow the least drop of intensity in training. You won't read this in any textbook. This is not even a "theory" about a specific diet, so I don't know how you can say its wrong when it doesn't even talk about a particular diet.

    #6 Oh, my mistake.

    #7 What is "they"? I'm not igonoring energy metabolism, I'm wholeheartedly agreeing with 99% of what you say.

    #8 The conversion of EPA and DHA is VERY small in flax seed oil, possibly only 10%. It becomes less as you age as you lose the enzyme responsible for conversion. My flax oil bottle (Barlean's brand) says it has 11g fat per 1Tbsp. So you're saying that 1.1g is enough? Is this optimal? It may be enough, but I really think there are tons of benefits if you increase it. BTW, in case someone is wondering, fish oil doesn't have to go through these conversions and is a better source of EPA/DHA.
    Many things recommended on these boards are higher than the RDA, and for good reason too. Increasing n-3 suppresses cytokine which can decrease the production of cortisol glucocorticoids therefore suppressing cortisol. This is GOOD. Furthermore one needs to increase n-3 just to help balance out the 6:3 ratio. An imbalanced ratio is not optimal and there are many health risk associated with this. Basically increasing n-3 can promote anabolism! There are also a host of anti-inflammatory actions associated with increasing this intake and/or decreasing n-6.

    #9 True, but if you're on a hypo caloric diet it won't matter. You're still going to lose fat. That's basic energy metabolism. It's not necessarily the BEST way, but you'll lose fat on any hypocaloric diet.

    10# Dude, I want glucagon. "Why have glucagon" was just a sarcastic/rhetorical question. You've got to read it in context with everything else I said. I was saying that if you're on a diet high in carbs and insulin is constantly being secreted because you eat 6-7 times per day, than glucagon will not have much of a role, and you won't be taking advantage if it's benefits. I'll say it once again so nobody misreads me:
    YOU NEED INSULIN, YOU NEED GLUCAGON, THE DO COMPLETEY DIFFERENT THINGS, AT DIFFERENT TIMES, THEY BOTH HAVE GOOD AND BAD EFFECTS, LEARN TO MANIPULATE THEM!

    That's a really great book I've heard. I don't own any textbooks of that nature right now, but I'll have to get a hold of one just for reference.

    Also if I say anything that sound like I'm promoting low car diets, I'm not. I'm playing Devil's advocate a little, and merely point out other possibilities and considerations. I still want to know what you define "low fat" to be. To me, you start getting into the low fat category when you hit around 50-60g for a 80-90kg man.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    See this is what I'm talking about. You are not even comprehending what is being said. This is the main reason WHY they fail because leptin drops, cAMP drops and HSL is therefore decreased drastically. You will NOT release fat withouth adequate enzymes to faciliate their breakdown. This is caused be prolonged glyocogen depletion. What happens after that? The fed state slowly turns into the starved state and fat loss will stop no matter how many calories you drop. Please refer to leptin as to the reason why.

    It is NOT a fact that during a low car diet more fat is burned. I don't know where you are getting these so called "facts" from but they are completely wrong. Even the Duke study that backed this point was shown to be highly innacurate. It was showed that the release of fat greater but the oxidation rate was not. So guess what happens when they are not oxidized? They are converted right back into triglycerides.
    I've read on numerous studies, that low carb diets of the same caloric value as a low fat diet, result in more weight loss. They both lose fat weight, but the low carb tends to beat it by a significant margin - at least until you stall out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    So you won't burn carbs during sleep yet you will burn dietary fat? Carbs oxidize at a rate 5x that of fats. Please check the thermic values. Fat is the lowest, protein is the highest. IOW, there is no carb fairy.

    Bro, this is BASIC nutrition.

    Please pick this book up if you really want to know. I don't know if you glycogen depleted right now but your are getting basic nutritional concepts wrong. I'm telling you if you read this book, you will tahnk me a million times over. Its a GREAT read.

    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    by James L. Groff
    Why wouldn't you burn dietary fat during 8-9 hours of sleep?

    Your body proportionately metabolizes more fat at rest. This is fact. It doesn't matter that carbs burn 5x faster. Just the same, aerobic exercise proportionately burns more fat than high intensity activities. In fact up to 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories! This is because you spend lots of time resting between sets. If there's any time of day where one can guarantee a high % of fat usage, it's during sleep. Eating carbs for a pre-bed meal will have no physiological benefit - unless you happened to train like right before bedtime. If the body never found a time where it preferred fat fuel, than you would never be able to store glycogen and you'd be constantly depleting no matter what.
    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your body chooses to oxidize. This is unrelated. Thermic values are a good thing, carbs have higher values than fat for sure, but it's useless in determing when to eat what as far as macronutrient choice goes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    #1 Nothing I said in the last post stated that glucagon and insulin are the same. In fact I stated how they are different and you need both at different times. I say different because you're right, they both can't be present in high levels at the same time. This is basic. I haven't argued this.

    #2 I know. I wasn't using the book to promote an Atkins diet. I was just using the term "glucose economy" as I believe it's defined.

    #3 It seems like we keep echoing each other with this, just repeating the same thing. What you said here doesn't in anyway contradict what I last posted.

    #4 Low fat diets have been proven to affect Testosterone levels. Low fat diets can also promote high insulin swings if you're not careful. I agree with you about low carb diet's effects. Also at no time have I stated one needs to drop carbs or follow a prolonged low carb diet. I would never tell any pro at your gym to do that. We should just talk about things I've actually said. Don't get me wrong, there are some people out there, usually non-athelets, that could stand to drop a few carb grams.

    #5 My "theory" is based on my own personal philosophy. When I'm dieting for fat loss, I want to find the best diet - the one that will allow the least drop of intensity in training. You won't read this in any textbook. This is not even a "theory" about a specific diet, so I don't know how you can say its wrong when it doesn't even talk about a particular diet.

    #6 Oh, my mistake.

    #7 What is "they"? I'm not igonoring energy metabolism, I'm wholeheartedly agreeing with 99% of what you say.

    #8 The conversion of EPA and DHA is VERY small in flax seed oil, possibly only 10%. It becomes less as you age as you lose the enzyme responsible for conversion. My flax oil bottle (Barlean's brand) says it has 11g fat per 1Tbsp. So you're saying that 1.1g is enough? Is this optimal? It may be enough, but I really think there are tons of benefits if you increase it. BTW, in case someone is wondering, fish oil doesn't have to go through these conversions and is a better source of EPA/DHA.
    Many things recommended on these boards are higher than the RDA, and for good reason too. Increasing n-3 suppresses cytokine which can decrease the production of cortisol glucocorticoids therefore suppressing cortisol. This is GOOD. Furthermore one needs to increase n-3 just to help balance out the 6:3 ratio. An imbalanced ratio is not optimal and there are many health risk associated with this. Basically increasing n-3 can promote anabolism! There are also a host of anti-inflammatory actions associated with increasing this intake and/or decreasing n-6.

    #9 True, but if you're on a hypo caloric diet it won't matter. You're still going to lose fat. That's basic energy metabolism. It's not necessarily the BEST way, but you'll lose fat on any hypocaloric diet.

    10# Dude, I want glucagon. "Why have glucagon" was just a sarcastic/rhetorical question. You've got to read it in context with everything else I said. I was saying that if you're on a diet high in carbs and insulin is constantly being secreted because you eat 6-7 times per day, than glucagon will not have much of a role, and you won't be taking advantage if it's benefits. I'll say it once again so nobody misreads me:
    YOU NEED INSULIN, YOU NEED GLUCAGON, THE DO COMPLETEY DIFFERENT THINGS, AT DIFFERENT TIMES, THEY BOTH HAVE GOOD AND BAD EFFECTS, LEARN TO MANIPULATE THEM!

    That's a really great book I've heard. I don't own any textbooks of that nature right now, but I'll have to get a hold of one just for reference.

    Also if I say anything that sound like I'm promoting low car diets, I'm not. I'm playing Devil's advocate a little, and merely point out other possibilities and considerations. I still want to know what you define "low fat" to be. To me, you start getting into the low fat category when you hit around 50-60g for a 80-90kg man.


    You are stating things trhat just don't make sense and are completely false. I have already pointed them out to you but for some you are not getting them. If you do not have the texts, I suggest you get them because you are butchering basci nutritional facts.

    You recommendations for the use omega's is right on, now go find how much you need to get those benefits. Its EXTREMELY small. Nobody is saying to to eliminate them but 1 tablspoon of Flax will do the job. Its in the literature backed by studies. Look it up and see how much linolenic acid you need to get the the amounts of EPA and DHA. And no this is NOT the RDA. You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right? I hope we don't have to go into lipid metabolism.

    THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa.

    Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon. You don't want it around peroid unless you want glycgoen to be broken down for fuel (in other words creating a catabolic environment).

    If you don't own any of the texts, please get something and read. You are not making sense with half the things you type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    I've read on numerous studies, that low carb diets of the same caloric value as a low fat diet, result in more weight loss. They both lose fat weight, but the low carb tends to beat it by a significant margin - at least until you stall out.
    No, your wrong again. The low carb diet lost more "weight" but when fat oxidation was looked at they both were the same in SENDETARY people. Now put thise people on an exercise program and glucose becomes MUCH more dependent. All you have to do is look the studies up. It was conducted by Duke. If you want to argue thses points you need to understand them first. Releasing triglycerides means nothing unless you oxidize them. With an abundant amount of FFA's brought on by these types of diets you will NOT oxidize them quick enough. It sounds like you are getting your information from every low carb site out there withouth understanding what you are typing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Why wouldn't you burn dietary fat during 8-9 hours of sleep?

    Your body proportionately metabolizes more fat at rest. This is fact. It doesn't matter that carbs burn 5x faster. Just the same, aerobic exercise proportionately burns more fat than high intensity activities. In fact up to 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories! This is because you spend lots of time resting between sets. If there's any time of day where one can guarantee a high % of fat usage, it's during sleep. Eating carbs for a pre-bed meal will have no physiological benefit - unless you happened to train like right before bedtime. If the body never found a time where it preferred fat fuel, than you would never be able to store glycogen and you'd be constantly depleting no matter what.
    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your body chooses to oxidize. This is unrelated. Thermic values are a good thing, carbs have higher values than fat for sure, but it's useless in determing when to eat what as far as macronutrient choice goes.

    Please, you don't even know what you are talking about here. Have no physiological effect? Are you crazy? Please go look up when optinal protein synthesis and hormone levels are released (BESIDES post workout) Carbs faciliate these hormone releases and aid in protein synthesis by keeping glycogen stores full and in the FED state. Fats DO NOT! You are so insulin scared its ridiculous. You are preaching what most low carb dieters preach who don't have a clue how the body works.

    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your chooses to oxidize?!!?!?!?!?!! OMG..... Thermic values are directly proportional to food energy intake and reflect the bodies absortion and digestion activities and is HIGHLY influenced by composition. In other words it digests and absords those foods that are higher FIRST, and fat LAST. You are completely ignoring the basics of energy metabolism AGAIN.

    You are BUTCHERING basic facts here.

    Serisouly what sort of classes have you taken?

    I'm done with this until you understand some basci facts. There is no point in continuing until you have read something. I don't know where you are getting your information from but you are highly mistaken.


    I suggest you talk to your professor because glyocgen is the main source of energy during exercise, especially resistance training and high intensity cardio. Fat is burned yes but glycogen is the main fuel source.

    DO you even know what the TCA cycle is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Why wouldn't you burn dietary fat during 8-9 hours of sleep?

    Your body proportionately metabolizes more fat at rest. This is fact. It doesn't matter that carbs burn 5x faster. Just the same, aerobic exercise proportionately burns more fat than high intensity activities.
    You would at a much slower rate which is more condusive to fat storage because its extremely energy dense and will get stored easier (since your metabolism slows a great bit during REM sleep). In other words, they will burn both so your recommendatrion for not using carbs is ridiculous. Fats get stored faster than carbs do into adipose cells so what you are saying in that carbs aren;t utlized is COMPLETELY false.

    In fact they will get oxidized quicker and removed quicker than fats so your are REALLY wrong on this one.

    You can do either of them in the right amounts but saying carbs do not get utilized is just pure fiction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You are stating things trhat just don't make sense and are completely false. I have already pointed them out to you but for some you are not getting them. If you do not have the texts, I suggest you get them because you are butchering basci nutritional facts.

    You recommendations for the use omega's is right on, now go find how much you need to get those benefits. Its EXTREMELY small. Nobody is saying to to eliminate them but 1 tablspoon of Flax will do the job. Its in the literature backed by studies. Look it up and see how much linolenic acid you need to get the the amounts of EPA and DHA. And no this is NOT the RDA. You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right? I hope we don't have to go into lipid metabolism.

    THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa.

    Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon. You don't want it around peroid unless you want glycgoen to be broken down for fuel (in other words creating a catabolic environment).

    If you don't own any of the texts, please get something and read. You are not making sense with half the things you type.
    "THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa."

    What I mean is that one doesn't dominate the other in a 24hour period. They need to take turns like a see-saw. Of course one will dominate the other at times, for example - spiking insulin after a workout. You just misread what I meant by dominate and must've skipped over the part I wrote in ALL CAPS. I must say again, though, that it's very hard to burn fat when insulin levels are significantly high, this is where and why properly timed P+F meals and choosing the right carbs come in handy.

    "You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right?"

    The body doesn't use all the protein we eat for synthesis of new tissue either. Omega 3 consumption should not be limited by how much EPA/DHA the body uses. Omega 3 consumption has more benefits than just it's EPA/DHA. If everything can be accomplished by such small amounts of EPA/DHA then why don't we all just take 2 fish oil capsules and retire the rest of Omega 3's for the day. Then all the other polys can come from n-6 and we can distort our ratio like all the other Americans getting fat.

    "Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon."

    Wha about the word "manipulate" makes you think that I want glucagon to be high. You manipulate/regulate/control/ your diet to get the best effects out of both hormones. You want to use your diet to prevent glucagon getting out of hand. This is what I mean by "manipulate". It's not even an argument that diet greatly affects these hormones. Basic stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    No, your wrong again. The low carb diet lost more "weight" but when fat oxidation was looked at they both were the same in SENDETARY people. Now put thise people on an exercise program and glucose becomes MUCH more dependent. All you have to do is look the studies up. It was conducted by Duke. If you want to argue thses points you need to understand them first. Releasing triglycerides means nothing unless you oxidize them. With an abundant amount of FFA's brought on by these types of diets you will NOT oxidize them quick enough. It sounds like you are getting your information from every low carb site out there withouth understanding what you are typing.
    Actually the studies I've read measured BF%, so we must've read different studies. Actually, at least one of the studies I'm sure came from an NSCA Journal that I receive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Please, you don't even know what you are talking about here. Have no physiological effect? Are you crazy? Please go look up when optinal protein synthesis and hormone levels are released (BESIDES post workout) Carbs faciliate these hormone releases and aid in protein synthesis by keeping glycogen stores full and in the FED state. Fats DO NOT! You are so insulin scared its ridiculous. You are preaching what most low carb dieters preach who don't have a clue how the body works.

    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your chooses to oxidize?!!?!?!?!?!! OMG..... Thermic values are directly proportional to food energy intake and reflect the bodies absortion and digestion activities and is HIGHLY influenced by composition. In other words it digests and absords those foods that are higher FIRST, and fat LAST. You are completely ignoring the basics of energy metabolism AGAIN.

    You are BUTCHERING basic facts here.

    Serisouly what sort of classes have you taken?

    I'm done with this until you understand some basci facts. There is no point in continuing until you have read something. I don't know where you are getting your information from but you are highly mistaken.


    I suggest you talk to your professor because glyocgen is the main source of energy during exercise, especially resistance training and high intensity cardio. Fat is burned yes but glycogen is the main fuel source.

    DO you even know what the TCA cycle is?
    " Have no physiological effect? Are you crazy?"

    I left out a word in that phrase... I should have wrote "has no beneficial physiological effect". Of course it has a physiological effect, it's food.
    For a pre-sleep meal, you don't need large amounts of carbs. Yes carbs to facilitate protein synthesis, temporarily lower glucagon etc...but if you're worried about your body comp - which the original poster is - you don't want to eat carbs that late unless you train late at night.


    "I suggest you talk to your professor because glyocgen is the main source of energy during exercise, especially resistance training and high intensity cardio. Fat is burned yes but glycogen is the main fuel source."

    [B]Please please don't put silly words in my mouth. No where at any time did I ever state that fat was used to fuel muscle contractions during resistance training. Never did I say that. Glycogen is the main fuel source for the actual contractions, the TCA cycle clearly points that out. Glycogen is not used when your sitting on the bench for 3 minutes between sets or walking or drinking water. I said that approx 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories. This is because of the rest periods, not because of the bench press. I was only saying this to make a point in strengthening my argument that fat is burned during sleep even if carbs are oxidized 5x faster. Sleep does not require a fuel that's burned 5x faster.

    The TEF is merely a measure of how much extra energy/heat is produced in digesting certain foods. If you go walk on a treadmill low intensity for 60 minutes, you're going to burn a extraordinarily large proportion of fat for fuel. I just don't see how the TEF of a given food from a meal 2 hours ago affects this???

    Yes I know what the TCA/citric acid/Krebs/tricarboxylic cycle or what have you is. I need you to explain how the TEF (thermic effect of food) influences which fuel the body chooses to use. My books never taught this. Maybe your book does. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just am not aware this. I'm not trying to get on anyone's nerves, I think this has been a healthy debate and I've learned a lot from your post since I've been a member and I hope you continue to reply to me. I've never claimed to know everything, but I think I do make a few good points based upon the knowledge I do have. This has been a great thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    "THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa."

    What I mean is that one doesn't dominate the other in a 24hour period. They need to take turns like a see-saw. Of course one will dominate the other at times, for example - spiking insulin after a workout. You just misread what I meant by dominate and must've skipped over the part I wrote in ALL CAPS. I must say again, though, that it's very hard to burn fat when insulin levels are significantly high, this is where and why properly timed P+F meals and choosing the right carbs come in handy.

    "You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right?"

    The body doesn't use all the protein we eat for synthesis of new tissue either. Omega 3 consumption should not be limited by how much EPA/DHA the body uses. Omega 3 consumption has more benefits than just it's EPA/DHA. If everything can be accomplished by such small amounts of EPA/DHA then why don't we all just take 2 fish oil capsules and retire the rest of Omega 3's for the day. Then all the other polys can come from n-6 and we can distort our ratio like all the other Americans getting fat.

    "Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon."

    Wha about the word "manipulate" makes you think that I want glucagon to be high. You manipulate/regulate/control/ your diet to get the best effects out of both hormones. You want to use your diet to prevent glucagon getting out of hand. This is what I mdan by "manipulate". It's not even an argument that diet greatly affects these hormones. Basic stuff.


    1. You actually can if you diet is adequate and that is VERY easy to do. You are taking conepts and distorting them. All you have to do is find out how much EPA/DHA your body utilizes within a certain range and it is VERY small. Stating the benefits and preaching how we need this and need that withouth knowing how much is needed to accomplish this is done way too much on these boards. You did this with your omega 3 comments.

    2. You said you WANT glucagon. If you understood the metabolic pathways (I aleady have 3 times) and consequences you most certainly do NOT want it. If you want to "manipulate (still doens't make sense) glucagon from getting out of hand then you use carbs, not fat. You keep agreeing with me but then completely reverse your point of view by supporting low carb diets. I've already stated this several times and for some reason you do not want to understand.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    " Have no physiological effect? Are you crazy?"

    I left out a word in that phrase... I should have wrote "has no beneficial physiological effect". Of course it has a physiological effect, it's food.
    For a pre-sleep meal, you don't need large amounts of carbs. Yes carbs to facilitate protein synthesis, temporarily lower glucagon etc...but if you're worried about your body comp - which the original poster is - you don't want to eat carbs that late unless you train late at night.


    "I suggest you talk to your professor because glyocgen is the main source of energy during exercise, especially resistance training and high intensity cardio. Fat is burned yes but glycogen is the main fuel source."

    [B]Please please don't put silly words in my mouth. No where at any time did I ever state that fat was used to fuel muscle contractions during resistance training. Never did I say that. Glycogen is the main fuel source for the actual contractions, the TCA cycle clearly points that out. Glycogen is not used when your sitting on the bench for 3 minutes between sets or walking or drinking water. I said that approx 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories. This is because of the rest periods, not because of the bench press. I was only saying this to make a point in strengthening my argument that fat is burned during sleep even if carbs are oxidized 5x faster. Sleep does not require a fuel that's burned 5x faster.

    The TEF is merely a measure of how much extra energy/heat is produced in digesting certain foods. If you go walk on a treadmill low intensity for 60 minutes, you're going to burn a extraordinarily large proportion of fat for fuel. I just don't see how the TEF of a given food from a meal 2 hours ago affects this???

    Yes I know what the TCA/citric acid/Krebs/tricarboxylic cycle or what have you is. I need you to explain how the TEF (thermic effect of food) influences which fuel the body chooses to use. My books never taught this. Maybe your book does. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just am not aware this. I'm not trying to get on anyone's nerves, I think this has been a healthy debate and I've learned a lot from your post since I've been a member and I hope you continue to reply to me. I've never claimed to know everything, but I think I do make a few good points based upon the knowledge I do have. This has been a great thread.

    1. You keep saying it has no benefitical effect when I clearly show you why it does if you do it in the right amounts. You are flip flopping back and forth like John Kerry. There is no carb fairy. YOu don't get fat by eating carbs before bedtime. The hormonal benefits of carbs far outweight those of fats. Its a scientific FACT. Look it up. Case closed. If you persist on using this arguement at least know what you are talking about. I haven't even gone into the leptin issue. ANyon with a scientific backround will state this. It supports the FED state 10x better than fats ever will.

    2. You said high intensity exercise. High intensity exercise is categoraized in ANY Exercise and Sports Nutrition program as resistant training, HIIT and any activity highly dependent on glucose. So in essence you did say it withouth even understanding that you did. Check the hormonal profile on high intesnity exercise and you will see its almost identical to resistant training. This is what I mean by stating things that make no sense. You don't even know you are doing it.

    I suggest you do a little more research because your body use glyocgen in between sets. Your body doesn't switch modes every second or minute. You heart rate and metabolism takes more the 3 minutes to switch. One you start your training session (weight lifting) glyocgen is the main source until at least 30-60 minutes post exercise. This is also WHY the body secretes GH during this time as a response. High intesntiy exercise does oxidize fat at a faster rate than low intensity exercise but low intensity releases more from stored adipose cells more than exercise. You seem to be mistaken on a lot of concepts here and stating very large generalities.

    I am not putting works into your mouth but do me a favor and earn you degree and take your calsses then come back and read your posts. You will see you are HIGHLY mistaken on many of them. I have already said I am not ripping on you but when you are completely ignoring simple nutrional facts then I have to say something. My books didn't teach me this stuff, my classes over many years have. Books are great for reference but I type this as I know it from my head. Anyone who talks to me on the phone can attest to that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Sleep does not require a fuel that's burned 5x faster.

    [/B]
    You're right. So stating that your body doesn't utilize carbs during sleep is completely wrong. Fat can be used and so can carbs. Fats are more energy dense andhave a much better change of getting stored in adipose cells. Its very simple but for some reason you believing the the majority of people that post on these boards and have no clue what they are tlaking about.

    If it burns 5x times faster than means its oxidized and used 5x faster which means is will NOT be stored as fat. Its used. Nobody said LARGE amounts. You are the one who stated carbs don't get used which is completey false.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    I'm not trying to get on anyone's nerves, I think this has been a healthy debate and I've learned a lot from your post since I've been a member and I hope you continue to reply to me. I've never claimed to know everything, but I think I do make a few good points based upon the knowledge I do have. This has been a great thread.[/B]
    You are not getting on anyone's nerves at all and I will continue to reply to you but you NEED to read up on some of these things because you are just wrong. I will disucss this as much as you want. Its my job. THis is what I do. My results and experience and knowledge allow me to eanr a living. If I was talking out my brownhole I wouldn't be traning people for a living (actually that isn't true, most traininers are idiots). I will rephrase. If I was talking out my brownhole I wouldn't be having the succes I am with my clients.

    You made some points that I have agreed with but you have made some that are just wrong but for some reason don't want to do the reseach and understand why. That is all I ask. It gets redundant when I read your posts and you harp on the same points that are just wrong. I don't how many times I can explain to you why things are wrong. I'm not claiming to know everything but just like most people on these boards people are discussing advanced topicss withtout even understanding the basics. Thermic values and why the body utilizes certain macronutrients is leanred in entry level nutrition. These types of things should be understood before talking about insulin, glucagon, cAMP, HSL, LPL, Leptin, etc.....

    If you don't understand the basics you won't understnad the rest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    1. You keep saying it has no benefitical effect when I clearly show you why it does if you do it in the right amounts. You are flip flopping back and forth like John Kerry. There is no carb fairy. YOu don't get fat by eating carbs before bedtime. The hormonal benefits of carbs far outweight those of fats. Its a scientific FACT. Look it up. Case closed. If you persist on using this arguement at least know what you are talking about. I haven't even gone into the leptin issue. ANyon with a scientific backround will state this. It supports the FED state 10x better than fats ever will.

    2. You said high intensity exercise. High intensity exercise is categoraized in ANY Exercise and Sports Nutrition program as resistant training, HIIT and any activity highly dependent on glucose. So in essence you did say it withouth even understanding that you did. Check the hormonal profile on high intesnity exercise and you will see its almost identical to resistant training. This is what I mean by stating things that make no sense. You don't even know you are doing it.

    I suggest you do a little more research because your body use glyocgen in between sets. Your body doesn't switch modes every second or minute. You heart rate and metabolism takes more the 3 minutes to switch. One you start your training session (weight lifting) glyocgen is the main source until at least 30-60 minutes post exercise. This is also WHY the body secretes GH during this time as a response. High intesntiy exercise does oxidize fat at a faster rate than low intensity exercise but low intensity releases more from stored adipose cells more than exercise. You seem to be mistaken on a lot of concepts here and stating very large generalities.

    I am not putting works into your mouth but do me a favor and earn you degree and take your calsses then come back and read your posts. You will see you are HIGHLY mistaken on many of them. I have already said I am not ripping on you but when you are completely ignoring simple nutrional facts then I have to say something. My books didn't teach me this stuff, my classes over many years have. Books are great for reference but I type this as I know it from my head. Anyone who talks to me on the phone can attest to that.
    #1 Carbs should be kept low and very low on the GI. Fat can be taken in low amounts. If you've spent all day eating carbs and your glycogen levels are high, then there's a great chance that even a sweet potato can ultimately convert into some fat.
    Carbs and fats both have hormonal benefits that promote anabolism. You seem such a fan of carbs that it looks like you're negative about fats. I still need you to answer what you think "adequate fat intake is". I don't know you're talking about 20g or 75g. I just want to stress that fats, as I'm sure you know, have many very positive effects in the pursuit of enhance body comp and health. How many you need is dependent on your lifestyle and LBM.
    Leptin is influenced by carbs drastically. Everything is not yet known about leptin, but carbs are definitely the trigger. This is the big trouble with low carb diets, the body thinks it starving. Leptin is a huge subject that's highly complex and I'd rather not get into it either. I'm sure we agree on it.

    #2 If I said high intensity exercise, it was purely typo, I meant low intensity. Fats are used at a very high rate during low intensity exercise.
    The body also is capable of metabolizing more than one fuel at a time, is it not? It doesn't have to be ALL carbs or ALL fats. That 60% is what I heard from John Berardi, I never read that in a textbook or anything like that.


    Yes, I need to be more careful with my word choice, I'm kinda rushing through this and it sounds like I've overgeneralized some things. Do you have any studies you could point me to regarding energy metabolism during workouts?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You're right. So stating that your body doesn't utilize carbs during sleep is completely wrong. Fat can be used and so can carbs. Fats are more energy dense andhave a much better change of getting stored in adipose cells. Its very simple but for some reason you believing the the majority of people that post on these boards and have no clue what they are tlaking about.

    If it burns 5x times faster than means its oxidized and used 5x faster which means is will NOT be stored as fat. Its used. Nobody said LARGE amounts. You are the one who stated carbs don't get used which is completey false.
    Depending on how many you eat, not ALL carbs are oxidized.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You are not getting on anyone's nerves at all and I will continue to reply to you but you NEED to read up on some of these things because you are just wrong. I will disucss this as much as you want. Its my job. THis is what I do. My results and experience and knowledge allow me to eanr a living. If I was talking out my brownhole I wouldn't be traning people for a living (actually that isn't true, most traininers are idiots). I will rephrase. If I was talking out my brownhole I wouldn't be having the succes I am with my clients.

    You made some points that I have agreed with but you have made some that are just wrong but for some reason don't want to do the reseach and understand why. That is all I ask. It gets redundant when I read your posts and you harp on the same points that are just wrong. I don't how many times I can explain to you why things are wrong. I'm not claiming to know everything but just like most people on these boards people are discussing advanced topicss withtout even understanding the basics. Thermic values and why the body utilizes certain macronutrients is leanred in entry level nutrition. These types of things should be understood before talking about insulin, glucagon, cAMP, HSL, LPL, Leptin, etc.....

    If you don't understand the basics you won't understnad the rest.
    Actually TEF, was not ever talked about in my entry level Nutrition class. I first learned about it on my own.
    As a continual student, I'd appreciate if you point out what you do agree with. Until now thought you were disagreeing with everything. I still need you to explain how TEF influences which fuel the body chooses for it's main source. TEF is an effect that comes after the fuel utilization, not before. The food must first be digested before there is an TEF. It sounded like you said TEF is somehow an influencing factor of the TCA cycle. Maybe I misinterpreted.
    It's really hard to have these debates over the computer. So much can be taken the wrong way, misinterpreted, spelled wrong, and become victims of typo...Nevertheless I know everyone has learned something here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    #1 Carbs should be kept low and very low on the GI. Fat can be taken in low amounts. If you've spent all day eating carbs and your glycogen levels are high, then there's a great chance that even a sweet potato can ultimately convert into some fat.
    Carbs and fats both have hormonal benefits that promote anabolism. You seem such a fan of carbs that it looks like you're negative about fats. I still need you to answer what you think "adequate fat intake is". I don't know you're talking about 20g or 75g. I just want to stress that fats, as I'm sure you know, have many very positive effects in the pursuit of enhance body comp and health. How many you need is dependent on your lifestyle and LBM.
    Leptin is influenced by carbs drastically. Everything is not yet known about leptin, but carbs are definitely the trigger. This is the big trouble with low carb diets, the body thinks it starving. Leptin is a huge subject that's highly complex and I'd rather not get into it either. I'm sure we agree on it.

    #2 If I said high intensity exercise, it was purely typo, I meant low intensity. Fats are used at a very high rate during low intensity exercise.
    The body also is capable of metabolizing more than one fuel at a time, is it not? It doesn't have to be ALL carbs or ALL fats. That 60% is what I heard from John Berardi, I never read that in a textbook or anything like that.


    Yes, I need to be more careful with my word choice, I'm kinda rushing through this and it sounds like I've overgeneralized some things. Do you have any studies you could point me to regarding energy metabolism during workouts?

    1. I agree with everything there but the problem is (which I have seen happen over the last 2 years with the low carb craze) is people think you need to consume large amounts, or cut large amounts to ahcieve the benefits. You don't need that much fat to get the benefits you speak of. I am a fan of carbs now because they do so many beneficial things but I a fan of smart carbs at reasonable levels. This is the problem with most of these boards in that people take ti to the extremes withouth understanding why things happen. Fats are VERY beneifical but the amount needed is grossly exaggerated. Lowering carbs can have a great benefit but ketosis is a farce, even Lyle will agree with that. People tihnk you have to lower carbs drastically and you just do not have too. It ALL about regulating them, not cutting them in drastic amounts.

    2. Yes the body uses various sources ALL the time. It never uses just one source but there is a major shift depending on the type of exercise. The higher the intenstiy the more it is dependent on glucose and'or glycogen, even though fat oxidation (not release of stored fat) is increased. OTOH low intesnity is much less reliant on glucose and will actually cause more of a release of stored tryglycerides than high intensity exercise.


    Listen bro, I really am not trying to rip on you or anything. You obviously have shown that you WANT to learn this stuff but the best thing you can is read some basic nutrition books (college texts, not books from Borders..most are horrible). Once you strip all this down into the basics it is SO much easier to understand. You will really see what I am talking about then and you will see the mistakes you've made. Thats ok, you leanr from your mistakes. I used to pro keto all the way until I really dug in and went back to the basics. Once you do that you really see the flaws when it pertains to BB'ers or just active people in general. Even Lyle is leaning to lower fat even though he still holds on to carb cycling.

    As for studies, there are a thousands of them on PubMed. I used to keep a lot of them before my computer crashed when I moved. I haven't begun to try to get them back yet. Most of the are references in most of the texts so when I need one I just get the info there or just go to the various journal pages.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Actually TEF, was not ever talked about in my entry level Nutrition class. I first learned about it on my own.
    As a continual student, I'd appreciate if you point out what you do agree with. Until now thought you were disagreeing with everything. I still need you to explain how TEF influences which fuel the body chooses for it's main source. TEF is an effect that comes after the fuel utilization, not before. The food must first be digested before there is an TEF. It sounded like you said TEF is somehow an influencing factor of the TCA cycle. Maybe I misinterpreted.
    It's really hard to have these debates over the computer. So much can be taken the wrong way, misinterpreted, spelled wrong, and become victims of typo...Nevertheless I know everyone has learned something here.
    No I wasn't disagreeing with everything. Not at all. As for explaining the TEF, give me some time. Thats is a whole differnt subject, like leptin. Its often overlooked and deemed insignificant. In reality it would be if you followed FDA guideline but most here don't even come close, so its much more a factor.

    As for TEF and TCA, I was talking about two seperate things after you brought exercise into the picture.

    I can't beleive they didn't gove over TEF and energy metabolism in your nutrition class. That stinks. Look for some more advanced classes then take some graduate level classes (after your prerequisites) if you feel you can handle the load.
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    I'd like to know where IHateGymMorons is getting his information from?

    I worked for one of the top exercise physiologists and nutritionists at U of M, and trained with pre-Olympic athletes at this time. My mentor, Dr. Charles Kuntzleman, also gave nutritonal advice to our University track team, and worked with Arnold "The Oak" on creating optimal nutrition and exercise plans for the Nation's public schools (sadly, none of which have been followed).

    I never once saw anyone "loading" on fats, nor did I ever hear any caution about eating carbs before bed. In fact, a lot of what my mentor's work did was de-bunk the Atkins book...of course, this was 20 years ago, and you can see how our short-term our social memory is.

    The carb-craze sells books and overpriced food products...high carbs let me run a half mile in under 1:50.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You would at a much slower rate which is more condusive to fat storage because its extremely energy dense and will get stored easier (since your metabolism slows a great bit during REM sleep). In other words, they will burn both so your recommendatrion for not using carbs is ridiculous. Fats get stored faster than carbs do into adipose cells so what you are saying in that carbs aren;t utlized is COMPLETELY false.

    In fact they will get oxidized quicker and removed quicker than fats so your are REALLY wrong on this one.

    You can do either of them in the right amounts but saying carbs do not get utilized is just pure fiction.
    If there's glycogen to be stored, why would the body burn all incoming carbs before it had a chance to top off glycogen. What you say sounds like all incoming carbs are burned no matter what. How can you fill up glycogen stores if all carbs are burned 5x faster than anything else? I just need you to clear this up for me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brodus
    I'd like to know where IHateGymMorons is getting his information from?

    I worked for one of the top exercise physiologists and nutritionists at U of M, and trained with pre-Olympic athletes at this time. My mentor, Dr. Charles Kuntzleman, also gave nutritonal advice to our University track team, and worked with Arnold "The Oak" on creating optimal nutrition and exercise plans for the Nation's public schools (sadly, none of which have been followed).

    I never once saw anyone "loading" on fats, nor did I ever hear any caution about eating carbs before bed. In fact, a lot of what my mentor's work did was de-bunk the Atkins book...of course, this was 20 years ago, and you can see how our short-term our social memory is.

    The carb-craze sells books and overpriced food products...high carbs let me run a half mile in under 1:50.
    So then your a track star...Track atheletes need to eat more carbs than your typical bodybuilder. Never once did I say to "load fats". I'm just making a case for 200lb bodybuilders possibly needing more than the RDA. Are you a fat phobic? It's proven that too many carbs eaten late at night can severely reduce GH output during sleep. Once again, I'm not trying to promote Atkins, I'm just trying to tell people that it's stupid to lower fat intake down to 20-30g to lose fat. I hope nobody here would advocate that.
    If you train hard, choose your foods wisely and get the timing right, you can reach 6-7% BF with 70-80g fat easily. At least this has been my experience. I'm not saying it applies to everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    If there's glycogen to be stored, why would the body burn all incoming carbs before it had a chance to top off glycogen. What you say sounds like all incoming carbs are burned no matter what. How can you fill up glycogen stores if all carbs are burned 5x faster than anything else? I just need you to clear this up for me.
    Glyocgen stores turnover at a rate of about every 2-3 hours. Its almost never completely full. They are not "topped" off. If energy is not needed in great amounts the first macronutrient to be oxidized is carbs, not fats.

    The body doens't pick one usage for carbs. Carbs are utilized in many functions compared to fats.

    And if your diet is adequate and planned properly, yes all carbs are used in some fashion. Fats OTOH are not.

    This is basic nutrition. Instead of getting your "facts" from low carb sites and message boards, please read the published literature first. Until you do, you have already shown not to understand what is going on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    It's proven that too many carbs eaten late at night can severely reduce GH output during sleep. At least this has been my experience. I'm not saying it applies to everyone.
    Prove it. Show me the study. Because the only ones showing anything relevant to this was done in diabetics in a state of hypoglycemia in which the gh pulse also increase the levels of cortisol. In other words, in normal people your statement means nothing.

    Growth hormone-releasing hormone facilitates hypoglycemia-induced release of cortisol.

    Perras B, Schultes B, Schwaiger R, Metz C, Wesseler W, Born J, Fehm HL.

    Department of Neuroendocrinology, University of Lubeck, Lubeck, Germany. Perras@kfg.mu-luebeck.de


    Inhibition of sleep-induced growth hormone secretion: no effect on diabetic control.

    Davidson MB, Peters AL.

    Publication Types:

    * Comment
    * Letter


    PMID: 2257001 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



    Some aspects of circadian variations of carbohydrate metabolism and related hormones in man.

    Sensi S.

    Publication Types:

    * Review


    PMID: 4619798 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]






    Now if you want to use those studies done on NORMAL people then you might find this one interesting.

    Growth Hormone Secretion during Sleep
    Y. Takahashi, D. M. Kipnis, and W. H. Daughaday

    Washington University School of Medicine, Department of Medicine, Metabolism Division, St. Louis, Missouri 63110

    This article has been cited by other articles in PMC.

    Abstract


    Plasma growth hormone (GH), insulin, cortisol, and glucose were measured during sleep on 38 nights in eight young adults. Blood was drawn from an indwelling catheter at 30-min intervals; EEG and electrooculogram were recorded throughout the night. In seven subjects, a plasma GH peak (13-72 mμg/ml) lasting 1.5-3.5 hr appeared with the onset of deep sleep. Smaller GH peaks (6-14 mμg/ml) occasionally appeared during subsequent deep sleep phases. Peak GH secretion was delayed if the onset of sleep was delayed. Subjects who were awakened for 2-3 hr and allowed to return to sleep exhibited another peak of GH secretion (14-46 mμg/ml). Peak GH secretion was not correlated with changes in plasma glucose, insulin, and cortisol. The effects of 6-CNS-active drugs on sleep-related GH secretion were investigated. Imipramine (50 mg) completely abolished GH peaks in two of four subjects, whereas chlorpromazine (30 mg), phenobarbital (97 mg), diphenylhydantoin (90 mg), chlordiazepoxide (20 mg), and isocarboxazid (30 mg) did not inhibit GH peaks. Altered hypothalamic activity associated with initiation of sleep results in a major peak of growth hormone secretion unrelated to hypoglycemia or changes in cortisol and insulin secretion.


    This is what I mean by posting statements that are COMPLETELY false.

    As for your other statements, it doesnt apply to everyone and quite frankly at 24, your experience is not that much. I could get to 6-7% at 24 without trying.
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  27. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
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    Maybe you should read these:


    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1972 Oct;35(4):592-4. Related Articles, Links

    Inhibition of sleep related growth hormone release by elevated free fatty acids.

    Lipman RL, Taylor AL, Schenk A, Mintz DH.

    PMID: 5052978 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]



    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1972 Sep;35(3):407-12. Related Articles, Links

    The effect of elevated free fatty acids (FFA) on the sleep-induced human growth hormone (HGH) peak.

    Lucke C, Adelman N, Glick SM.

    PMID: 5051363 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


    J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1971 Jan;32(1):65-9. Related Articles, Links

    Human growth hormone release in sleep: nonsuppression by acute hyperglycemia.

    Parker DC, Rossman LG.

    PMID: 5539028 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




    There is no carb fairy.....let it go.....
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    I've always thought that elevated blood sugar inhibited GH release to a degree. These studies led me to believe that:
    European Journal of Applied Physiology; 80 (2), 92-99, 1999.
    Journal of Applied Physiology; 76 (2), 839-845, 1994.

    They showed that drinking carb infused drinks during endurance exercise increased blood insulin which correlated with decreased blood GH. If it's doing it DURING exercise when the body is very sensitive to insulin, and normally releases GH naturally, then I speculated that it must be worse right before bed at the end of the day when you're naturally a little less insulin sensitive...

    Choosing the wrong carbs and/or too many carbs, could affect affect the first couple GH spikes during sleep. The first peak during sleep is the largest secretion too. OTOH elevated FFA's have been shown to inhibit GH secretion too. I'm not promoting a large fatty meal before bed, gotta get that straight. I believe you can eat carbs before bed, but it shouldn't be 50-60g, and they should be low GI. I never said "don't eat carbs", I said to beware of "too many" and should've added "the wrong kinds".

    Bobo- what's your idea of a good pre-sleep meal, just curious? Most people would say some cottage cheese with a little EFA's... Just wondering how your recommendation would differ in light of your fondness of carbs.
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    Not during sleep.


    The response of the body during exercise is not the same during sleep or in normal feeding patterns for that matter.

    And what are those studies? You are just listing pages. What are the studies that those pages reference.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Glyocgen stores turnover at a rate of about every 2-3 hours. Its almost never completely full. They are not "topped" off. If energy is not needed in great amounts the first macronutrient to be oxidized is carbs, not fats.

    The body doens't pick one usage for carbs. Carbs are utilized in many functions compared to fats.

    And if your diet is adequate and planned properly, yes all carbs are used in some fashion. Fats OTOH are not.

    This is basic nutrition. Instead of getting your "facts" from low carb sites and message boards, please read the published literature first. Until you do, you have already shown not to understand what is going on.

    "And if your diet is adequate and planned properly, yes all carbs are used in some fashion. Fats OTOH are not."

    I agree, planning is critical here.
    You say that "all carbs are used in some fashion"...to the average person reading this, that sounds like carbs are immune from turning into fat. Surely you acknowledge the fact and possibility that excess carbs can contribute to fat gain independent of fat intake. I'm not saying there's some magic number of carbs, and if you exceed it, then you get fat...I'm just saying that it happens.

    BTW, I don't read or participate in "low carb message boards" or websites. I don't even know what one of those would be...atkins.com maybe??? I don't know why you continually label me an Atkins proponent when I've said and agreed with dozens of things that are anti-low-carb
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons

    I never said "don't eat carbs", I said to beware of "too many" and should've added "the wrong kinds".

    "You will not burn carbs during sleep."


    Yes you did.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons

    BTW, I don't read or participate in "low carb message boards" or websites. I don't even know what one of those would be...atkins.com maybe??? I don't know why you continually label me an Atkins proponent when I've said and agreed with dozens of things that are anti-low-carb[/B]
    Because you repeat exactly what they say.


    I tihnk it is in your best interest to go back and read some of those studies before continuing on. I already suggested to read up some more because you are still stating things that are completely false.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    I've always thought that elevated blood sugar inhibited GH release to a degree. These studies led me to believe that:
    European Journal of Applied Physiology; 80 (2), 92-99, 1999.
    Journal of Applied Physiology; 76 (2), 839-845, 1994.

    I suppose this is the study you presented for stating GH is reduced during sleep because of carbs?


    R. M. Chandler, H. K. Byrne, J. G. Patterson, and J. L. Ivy
    Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise
    J Appl Physiol 76: 839-845, 1994


    This study has nothing to do with sleep at all or anything resebling GH pulses during times of REM sleep.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I could get to 6-7% at 24 without trying.
    Wow, you are certainly blessed with good genetics. Most guys who don't try, actually look like they don't try.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    "You will not burn carbs during sleep."


    Yes you did.
    That was one of my overgeneralized statements, that isn't 100% true. Sorry. I did however say the word "too many" right before that I think. That all goes back to my statements that carbs are preferentially burned during higher intensity activities. Sleep isn't high intensity, so that's why I made that statment. Yes carbs are used during sleep, we agreed that all fuels are used to some degree simultaneously.
  36. IHateGymMorons's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    I suppose this is the study you presented for stating GH is reduced during sleep because of carbs?


    R. M. Chandler, H. K. Byrne, J. G. Patterson, and J. L. Ivy
    Dietary supplements affect the anabolic hormones after weight-training exercise
    J Appl Physiol 76: 839-845, 1994


    This study has nothing to do with sleep at all or anything resebling GH pulses during times of REM sleep.
    Yes, the studies didn't focus on sleep though. It did find that elevated blood glucose lowered GH, which leads me to believe that nothing is stopping it from happenning at night either. Still, you may have proved my previous statement wrong. Perhaps the signal to release GH during sleep is so strong that even a little blood sugar couldn't stop it. This is very possible.
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    Its not that its strong, its that it is responding to different stimuli via differnt pathways. In the human body, there is hardly ever ONE cause and effect.
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    Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Wow, you are certainly blessed with good genetics. Most guys who don't try, actually look like they don't try.
    I wouldn't say I had great genetics. You could look at my before pic in my forum and see that. Its that my metabolism was still flying high at that age.
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