Skim Milk

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  1. I also agree that low carb diets stall just as quick, or even faster than low fat diets. They aren't optimal for bodybuilders. They will tamper with your insulin response after long term and will also slow your thyroid output. Not good. They are used as a tool, not a lifestyle.

    BOBO, what's HSL?


  2. I didnt understand all of this, but since fat are easier to store as fat than other nutrients, why we often hear or read that eating fat and protein at night is a good idea for bodybuilders ? Is that another bodybuilding myth ? Fat slow down digestion of protein so you should eat some protein and good fats before bed, how many I've heard that...

    From one side there is people that claims that your body doesnt need energy (carbs) late in the evening and during night, and the last thing you want is released insulin.

    But insulin index is a new concept for me, and that bring the other philosophy about eating carbs at night. Since eating fat release more insulin in the long run, and since fat are easier to store, we shouldnt eat fat (btw,Im not saying that we should cut down all fat, I just want to understand a bit more so I can adjust my diet)
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    #1 I know, the very nature of gluconeogenesis is to break down aminos, by deaminiting them. Fat is not apart of this. That's why when dieting you have to keep your protein high.
    Regarding the fats, they are in a constant state of breaking down, there are fats right now in your body that are in some stage of breaking down, it's not like they all do it at the same time or running on an on/off switch.
    The body can use MCT's if provided to provide energy VERY quickly, quicker than many carbs.
    The body will also hold on to dietary fats aggressively they are insufficiently provided through diet. I'm not advocating high fat diets, just what I know from experience, which is very low fat diets don't work and you can only decrease them to a certain degree.

    #2 Glucagon is also good at increassing FFA availability, but yes it is a catabolic hormone. The whole insulin/glucagon thing must be delicately balanced and manipulated carefully.
    There are many benefits of keeping a certain carbohyrate intake, but you have to be aware of your glucose economy and just accept the fact that maximum glycogen storage will likely be compromised during some stages of dieting.

    #3 I see what you mean, I just never said anything about the "speed" of insulin release. I commented on total insulin being higher. So your reply to that confused me because it referred to something I didn't comment on. Sorry for the confusion.

    1. Of course fat are always being broken down but there is a certain amount within the bloodstream that triggers the body not release stores triglycerides and the more you increase dietary fat, the more you go over this threshhold and the less tryglycerides will be be released.

    2. It doesn't have to be balanced. Insulin suppresses glucagon peroid. I don't know what kind of balance you are referring too. Nobody ever said maximum glycgoen is possible...Who said that? The glucose economy? Oh know, its Rob Thoburn again.

    3. You said the insulin response is larger. The response is based on the GI, not II.

    4. Low fat diets don't work? Are you kidding me? Every competitive BB'er eliminates fat to a point pre contest. I have had my best results on low fat diets (you can see my pic) and I used to preach low carb diets left and right. They work to a point and are not healthy for long term. I have clients right now that have done every CKD and low carb diet in existence and the story is the SAME. They stall. At your age I could eat taco bell and lose weight but when you start hitting the age where you NEED to worry about certain things, a low fat diet will give you much better results in getting to low bf%. You can ask any client of mine that, even the competitors I train. They most certainly work and they work very well.

    5. The body will hold on to stored fats (not dietary. that doesn't make sense) in any fasting state whether its from dietary fat or lack of carbs. THe key to this is provide enough nutrients to where you are not in a fasting state. There is a reason pre contest diets that I design taper everything in very small increments.

    6. MCT's are broken down faster but it still doesn't eliminate the the increase in circulating FFA's and the metabolic effects the occur after. The body react to an increase in FFA's by decreasing HSL. THis is NOT what you want when dieting. They will have the least amount of effect compared to other fats but you generally want to avoid this as much as possible.

    7. Glucagon works by increasing HSL (hormone sensitive lipase) which are enzymes that breakdown stored tryglycerides. Decrease carbs an increase fat intake and HSL will drop. Inother words the glucagon won't help in releasing stored fat.
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  4. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    I also agree that low carb diets stall just as quick, or even faster than low fat diets. They aren't optimal for bodybuilders. They will tamper with your insulin response after long term and will also slow your thyroid output. Not good. They are used as a tool, not a lifestyle.

    BOBO, what's HSL?
    Thats what I said in the last 5 posts.


    Hormone Sensitive Lipase

    Its the enzyme within adipose cells that break triglycerides into fatty acids and its glycerol component. Increase fat intake, HSL reduces and LPL (lipoprotein Lipase) increases. This is the enzyme that converts FFA's into sotred triglycerides. Increase insulin along with that and you have serisou storage of fat. Have a steady stable stream with an environment of low FFA's in the blood and you have a good amount of HSL breaking down triglycerides to be released into the bloodstream to be oxidized.

    If people don't understand these concepts, they will not know WHY low carb, mod-high fat diets will stall out and become very counterproductive.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Chunky
    I didnt understand all of this, but since fat are easier to store as fat than other nutrients, why we often hear or read that eating fat and protein at night is a good idea for bodybuilders ? Is that another bodybuilding myth ? Fat slow down digestion of protein so you should eat some protein and good fats before bed, how many I've heard that...

    From one side there is people that claims that your body doesnt need energy (carbs) late in the evening and during night, and the last thing you want is released insulin.

    But insulin index is a new concept for me, and that bring the other philosophy about eating carbs at night. Since eating fat release more insulin in the long run, and since fat are easier to store, we shouldnt eat fat (btw,Im not saying that we should cut down all fat, I just want to understand a bit more so I can adjust my diet)

    Fats slow digestion only if attached to a food and its actually a fat (not oil). Oils that are added do NOT slow digestion.

    The benefit of seperating fats from carbs is to limit the storage of fats (rise in insulin corresponds to a rise in LPL). When both are present, carbs will most likekly get utilized as fuel while fats are stored.

    You should never eliminate any maconutrient but the amount of dietary fat needed is not large at all.
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  6. I hope I don't sound grumpy, but I am. These damn hurricanes are driving me nuts.
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  7. holy hell i am never going three days without looking at a thread ever again! a lot of info to read..


    I have a question though. I am confused, too, in a sense the same way Chunky is confused. I have always thought lower carbs at night whether they are low on the II scale or not are not good to eat at night and that fats at night are a better way to go along with some proteins. Is this a bad way to go?

    Also, what about things like eggs. I have always used the entire egg to help add calories (when bulking) and to get some added protein during breakfast etc and i would try not to eat too many carbs with them. Should I eliminate using the entire egg and increase egg whites then add in oatmeal instead? This thread has seriously kicked my butt because I was fairly lean and bulking good but I definitely couldn't get to the really low b/f percentages and I eat fairly low carbs, mostly just milk carbs, oatmeal, and multi grain bread, but not high amounts..
    PharmD

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    1. Of course fat are always being broken down but there is a certain amount within the bloodstream that triggers the body not release stores triglycerides and the more you increase dietary fat, the more you go over this threshhold and the less tryglycerides will be be released.

    2. It doesn't have to be balanced. Insulin suppresses glucagon peroid. I don't know what kind of balance you are referring too. Nobody ever said maximum glycgoen is possible...Who said that? The glucose economy? Oh know, its Rob Thoburn again.

    3. You said the insulin response is larger. The response is based on the GI, not II.

    4. Low fat diets don't work? Are you kidding me? Every competitive BB'er eliminates fat to a point pre contest. I have had my best results on low fat diets (you can see my pic) and I used to preach low carb diets left and right. They work to a point and are not healthy for long term. I have clients right now that have done every CKD and low carb diet in existence and the story is the SAME. They stall. At your age I could eat taco bell and lose weight but when you start hitting the age where you NEED to worry about certain things, a low fat diet will give you much better results in getting to low bf%. You can ask any client of mine that, even the competitors I train. They most certainly work and they work very well.

    5. The body will hold on to stored fats (not dietary. that doesn't make sense) in any fasting state whether its from dietary fat or lack of carbs. THe key to this is provide enough nutrients to where you are not in a fasting state. There is a reason pre contest diets that I design taper everything in very small increments.

    6. MCT's are broken down faster but it still doesn't eliminate the the increase in circulating FFA's and the metabolic effects the occur after. The body react to an increase in FFA's by decreasing HSL. THis is NOT what you want when dieting. They will have the least amount of effect compared to other fats but you generally want to avoid this as much as possible.

    7. Glucagon works by increasing HSL (hormone sensitive lipase) which are enzymes that breakdown stored tryglycerides. Decrease carbs an increase fat intake and HSL will drop. Inother words the glucagon won't help in releasing stored fat.
    #2 By "balance" I don't mean that the two are secreted at equal levels constantly, I mean that sometimes you need insulin and sometimes you rely on glucagon to do it's job. One shouldn't dominate the other all the time. You can't have high insulin all the time. The body doesn't like to burn FFA in the presence of insulin- especially high levels.

    Glucose economy, yeah I guess I must've first heard that term from him. Anyways, what it means is that the body's capacity to store glycogen is limited, if you go over, then fat accumulation isn't far behind. I only pointed it out because we're talking about dieting, and if there even is such a thing as "maximum glycogen" levels than you're not going to have them when you diet.

    #3 GI is used to predict how fast glucose enters the bloodstream which predicts how fast and how much insulin will rise at a given time...am I wrong? II is based on how much total insulin is released. I'm pretty sure you can agree with this.

    #4 Low fat diets compromise optimum hormone levels. They work for a while because of the accompanying calorie drop. Define low for me, I've "heard" of BBer's droping fat to like 20-30g. This is freaking ridiculous. If you can get away with this than you are definitely on some juice. I'm mostly speaking for the guys that go natural.
    Define "low fat". Are you talking 60-70g or like 20-30? Maybe your definition of low isn't as low as I might think?...
    I'm glad you got ripped on it, though. Lots of people can get ripped on many different diets if you're training is excellent. My theory on diets is that the best one will allow you to train twith the most intensity possible while dropping fat. This is not a low calorie/low fat, CKD or Atkins, I assure you. When your training suffers, so will your body. Find what works for you.

    #5 Did I say dietary? If so I meant bodyfat.

    #6 True, but I was just making a point in reference to you saying that fat is too slow. It's not evidence to drop out carbs or anything like that.

    #7 You're right here, very interesting that the body knows to do this. I love this subject. I'm not arguing that one needs to flood there body with fat, just that you need to give it sufficient amounts, whatever that me be for you. If you're eating so much fat that you hinder HSL and triglycerides are never burned, than you're absolutely right, why have glucagon then?

  9. Quote Originally Posted by LakeMountD
    holy hell i am never going three days without looking at a thread ever again! a lot of info to read..


    I have a question though. I am confused, too, in a sense the same way Chunky is confused. I have always thought lower carbs at night whether they are low on the II scale or not are not good to eat at night and that fats at night are a better way to go along with some proteins. Is this a bad way to go?

    Also, what about things like eggs. I have always used the entire egg to help add calories (when bulking) and to get some added protein during breakfast etc and i would try not to eat too many carbs with them. Should I eliminate using the entire egg and increase egg whites then add in oatmeal instead? This thread has seriously kicked my butt because I was fairly lean and bulking good but I definitely couldn't get to the really low b/f percentages and I eat fairly low carbs, mostly just milk carbs, oatmeal, and multi grain bread, but not high amounts..
    None of this has been evidence supporting the intake of carbs for sleep. Stick with some protein and fat. The fat may not blunt the small amount of insulin that's released from your Cottage Cheese or what have you, but it will provide a fuel and help spared the protein. You will not burn carbs during sleep.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Thats what I said in the last 5 posts.


    Hormone Sensitive Lipase

    Its the enzyme within adipose cells that break triglycerides into fatty acids and its glycerol component. Increase fat intake, HSL reduces and LPL (lipoprotein Lipase) increases. This is the enzyme that converts FFA's into sotred triglycerides. Increase insulin along with that and you have serisou storage of fat. Have a steady stable stream with an environment of low FFA's in the blood and you have a good amount of HSL breaking down triglycerides to be released into the bloodstream to be oxidized.

    If people don't understand these concepts, they will not know WHY low carb, mod-high fat diets will stall out and become very counterproductive.
    I'm not sure the above is evidence why low carb diets fail, but nevertheless you're right. During low carb, it's a fact that more fat is burned. The body adapts to low carb diets (to a degree) and will burn more fat than it would in the presence of significant carb intake. The HSL argument mostly applies to when you are eating carbs. Low carb diets fail for other reasons than blunted HSL.

    You can try and reduce HSL all day long, but if you're in a caloric deficit, you'll still lose fat. Once again just in case anyone thinks I'm some Atkins freak and I'm promoting no carb diets, I'm not. I assure you. This has been a great thread. Skim milk, was it? Ha ha.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    #2 By "balance" I don't mean that the two are secreted at equal levels constantly, I mean that sometimes you need insulin and sometimes you rely on glucagon to do it's job. One shouldn't dominate the other all the time. You can't have high insulin all the time. The body doesn't like to burn FFA in the presence of insulin- especially high levels.

    Glucose economy, yeah I guess I must've first heard that term from him. Anyways, what it means is that the body's capacity to store glycogen is limited, if you go over, then fat accumulation isn't far behind. I only pointed it out because we're talking about dieting, and if there even is such a thing as "maximum glycogen" levels than you're not going to have them when you diet.

    #3 GI is used to predict how fast glucose enters the bloodstream which predicts how fast and how much insulin will rise at a given time...am I wrong? II is based on how much total insulin is released. I'm pretty sure you can agree with this.

    #4 Low fat diets compromise optimum hormone levels. They work for a while because of the accompanying calorie drop. Define low for me, I've "heard" of BBer's droping fat to like 20-30g. This is freaking ridiculous. If you can get away with this than you are definitely on some juice. I'm mostly speaking for the guys that go natural.
    Define "low fat". Are you talking 60-70g or like 20-30? Maybe your definition of low isn't as low as I might think?...
    I'm glad you got ripped on it, though. Lots of people can get ripped on many different diets if you're training is excellent. My theory on diets is that the best one will allow you to train twith the most intensity possible while dropping fat. This is not a low calorie/low fat, CKD or Atkins, I assure you. When your training suffers, so will your body. Find what works for you.

    #5 Did I say dietary? If so I meant bodyfat.

    #6 True, but I was just making a point in reference to you saying that fat is too slow. It's not evidence to drop out carbs or anything like that.

    #7 You're right here, very interesting that the body knows to do this. I love this subject. I'm not arguing that one needs to flood there body with fat, just that you need to give it sufficient amounts, whatever that me be for you. If you're eating so much fat that you hinder HSL and triglycerides are never burned, than you're absolutely right, why have glucagon then?

    1. I don't think you understand these concpets. You are not making sense with your statements on glucagon and/or insulin. One almost always dominates over the other. They both are secreted by the pancreas and both are never present in large amounts together. They do 2 completely different things and they are at the oppsite end of the spectrum. This is basic.

    2. The glucose economy supports carbohydrate usage, not fat. Read the New Glucose Revolution.

    3. GI value tells you only how fast a carbohydrate converts into glucose. The faster this happens, the faster the insulin response.

    4. Low fat diets do NOT compromise hormone levels, low carb diets do. This is a PROVEN FACT. Check any study on leptin, HSL, cAMP, LPL, T4, T3 and thyroid output. ALL support a low fat higher carb diet because they keep glycogen stores fuller and in turn help signal the fed state which produced favorable hormone levels for all of the above. Low carb diet compromises all of those MUCH faster. I don't know where you are getting your facts from but they are wrong. I'm glad I got ripped on it too and I'm glad the competitors I traing do to. Ask any competitor and he will tell you the same. Ask any pro and he will tell you the same. I already have an work with competitors already and also coverse with some pro's that train in my local gym. These are tried and true concepts and if I told them to drop carbs for a prolonged peroid of time they would laugh.

    5. Your theory on diet is highly flawed with innacurate statements. They simply are not true and any Advanced Nutrition class on the college or graduate level, especially those that cover energy metabolism, will show you this.

    6. Yes you said dietary.

    7. It is evidence, you just don't seem to want to except the reason why even they are backed by science. You are completely ignoring the basic concepts of energy metabolism.

    8. THe problem is the sufficient amounts are very small. All you have to do is search on the amount of 3,6,9's you need and you will realize it is VERY small compared to what is recommended on these boards. 1 Tablspoon of Flax has more than enough EPA and DHA than most people will ever needn in one day.

    9. ANY dietary fat hinders HSL AND cAMP. These are basci physiological facts that are in your text.

    10. Why have glucagon? You dont want to! Glucagon's main role is faciliate the breakdown of glyocgen into glucose. What happens when glycogen storage is already low? Muscle wasting. Come on man, this is basic stuff.


    I enjoy these converstations too but you really need to check what you're typing here. You are going against basic physiological facts which do not change for anyone. If you don't understand these concepts then you will not understand WHY you are wrong on several things. I am not ripping on you or anything but I am encouraging you to look this stuff up. If you want some suggestions for texts I would more than happy give you some as I have several here that are GREAT reads. They cover this (which is really basic) and go into much more detail to the point that I have trouble understanding what they are saying.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    I'm not sure the above is evidence why low carb diets fail, but nevertheless you're right. During low carb, it's a fact that more fat is burned. The body adapts to low carb diets (to a degree) and will burn more fat than it would in the presence of significant carb intake. The HSL argument mostly applies to when you are eating carbs. Low carb diets fail for other reasons than blunted HSL.

    You can try and reduce HSL all day long, but if you're in a caloric deficit, you'll still lose fat. Once again just in case anyone thinks I'm some Atkins freak and I'm promoting no carb diets, I'm not. I assure you. This has been a great thread. Skim milk, was it? Ha ha.
    See this is what I'm talking about. You are not even comprehending what is being said. This is the main reason WHY they fail because leptin drops, cAMP drops and HSL is therefore decreased drastically. You will NOT release fat withouth adequate enzymes to faciliate their breakdown. This is caused be prolonged glyocogen depletion. What happens after that? The fed state slowly turns into the starved state and fat loss will stop no matter how many calories you drop. Please refer to leptin as to the reason why.

    It is NOT a fact that during a low car diet more fat is burned. I don't know where you are getting these so called "facts" from but they are completely wrong. Even the Duke study that backed this point was shown to be highly innacurate. It was showed that the release of fat greater but the oxidation rate was not. So guess what happens when they are not oxidized? They are converted right back into triglycerides.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    None of this has been evidence supporting the intake of carbs for sleep. Stick with some protein and fat. The fat may not blunt the small amount of insulin that's released from your Cottage Cheese or what have you, but it will provide a fuel and help spared the protein. You will not burn carbs during sleep.
    So you won't burn carbs during sleep yet you will burn dietary fat? Carbs oxidize at a rate 5x that of fats. Please check the thermic values. Fat is the lowest, protein is the highest. IOW, there is no carb fairy.

    Bro, this is BASIC nutrition.

    Please pick this book up if you really want to know. I don't know if you glycogen depleted right now but your are getting basic nutritional concepts wrong. I'm telling you if you read this book, you will tahnk me a million times over. Its a GREAT read.

    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    by James L. Groff
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  14. GODAMN HURRICANE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!






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  15. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    by James L. Groff
    Can you believe that I was actually dumb enough to look up this book for reading? It cost $140!!!

    I guess I will just keep reading the board

  16. Quote Originally Posted by 5111
    Can you believe that I was actually dumb enough to look up this book for reading? It cost $140!!!

    I guess I will just keep reading the board
    $65 on Amazon.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by BOBO
    Fats slow digestion only if attached to a food and its actually a fat (not oil). Oils that are added do NOT slow digestion.
    So flax seed oil does not slow digestion if you put it in a shake? Sucks.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    1. I don't think you understand these concpets. You are not making sense with your statements on glucagon and/or insulin. One almost always dominates over the other. They both are secreted by the pancreas and both are never present in large amounts together. They do 2 completely different things and they are at the oppsite end of the spectrum. This is basic.

    2. The glucose economy supports carbohydrate usage, not fat. Read the New Glucose Revolution.

    3. GI value tells you only how fast a carbohydrate converts into glucose. The faster this happens, the faster the insulin response.

    4. Low fat diets do NOT compromise hormone levels, low carb diets do. This is a PROVEN FACT. Check any study on leptin, HSL, cAMP, LPL, T4, T3 and thyroid output. ALL support a low fat higher carb diet because they keep glycogen stores fuller and in turn help signal the fed state which produced favorable hormone levels for all of the above. Low carb diet compromises all of those MUCH faster. I don't know where you are getting your facts from but they are wrong. I'm glad I got ripped on it too and I'm glad the competitors I traing do to. Ask any competitor and he will tell you the same. Ask any pro and he will tell you the same. I already have an work with competitors already and also coverse with some pro's that train in my local gym. These are tried and true concepts and if I told them to drop carbs for a prolonged peroid of time they would laugh.

    5. Your theory on diet is highly flawed with innacurate statements. They simply are not true and any Advanced Nutrition class on the college or graduate level, especially those that cover energy metabolism, will show you this.

    6. Yes you said dietary.

    7. It is evidence, you just don't seem to want to except the reason why even they are backed by science. You are completely ignoring the basic concepts of energy metabolism.

    8. THe problem is the sufficient amounts are very small. All you have to do is search on the amount of 3,6,9's you need and you will realize it is VERY small compared to what is recommended on these boards. 1 Tablspoon of Flax has more than enough EPA and DHA than most people will ever needn in one day.

    9. ANY dietary fat hinders HSL AND cAMP. These are basci physiological facts that are in your text.

    10. Why have glucagon? You dont want to! Glucagon's main role is faciliate the breakdown of glyocgen into glucose. What happens when glycogen storage is already low? Muscle wasting. Come on man, this is basic stuff.


    I enjoy these converstations too but you really need to check what you're typing here. You are going against basic physiological facts which do not change for anyone. If you don't understand these concepts then you will not understand WHY you are wrong on several things. I am not ripping on you or anything but I am encouraging you to look this stuff up. If you want some suggestions for texts I would more than happy give you some as I have several here that are GREAT reads. They cover this (which is really basic) and go into much more detail to the point that I have trouble understanding what they are saying.
    #1 Nothing I said in the last post stated that glucagon and insulin are the same. In fact I stated how they are different and you need both at different times. I say different because you're right, they both can't be present in high levels at the same time. This is basic. I haven't argued this.

    #2 I know. I wasn't using the book to promote an Atkins diet. I was just using the term "glucose economy" as I believe it's defined.

    #3 It seems like we keep echoing each other with this, just repeating the same thing. What you said here doesn't in anyway contradict what I last posted.

    #4 Low fat diets have been proven to affect Testosterone levels. Low fat diets can also promote high insulin swings if you're not careful. I agree with you about low carb diet's effects. Also at no time have I stated one needs to drop carbs or follow a prolonged low carb diet. I would never tell any pro at your gym to do that. We should just talk about things I've actually said. Don't get me wrong, there are some people out there, usually non-athelets, that could stand to drop a few carb grams.

    #5 My "theory" is based on my own personal philosophy. When I'm dieting for fat loss, I want to find the best diet - the one that will allow the least drop of intensity in training. You won't read this in any textbook. This is not even a "theory" about a specific diet, so I don't know how you can say its wrong when it doesn't even talk about a particular diet.

    #6 Oh, my mistake.

    #7 What is "they"? I'm not igonoring energy metabolism, I'm wholeheartedly agreeing with 99% of what you say.

    #8 The conversion of EPA and DHA is VERY small in flax seed oil, possibly only 10%. It becomes less as you age as you lose the enzyme responsible for conversion. My flax oil bottle (Barlean's brand) says it has 11g fat per 1Tbsp. So you're saying that 1.1g is enough? Is this optimal? It may be enough, but I really think there are tons of benefits if you increase it. BTW, in case someone is wondering, fish oil doesn't have to go through these conversions and is a better source of EPA/DHA.
    Many things recommended on these boards are higher than the RDA, and for good reason too. Increasing n-3 suppresses cytokine which can decrease the production of cortisol glucocorticoids therefore suppressing cortisol. This is GOOD. Furthermore one needs to increase n-3 just to help balance out the 6:3 ratio. An imbalanced ratio is not optimal and there are many health risk associated with this. Basically increasing n-3 can promote anabolism! There are also a host of anti-inflammatory actions associated with increasing this intake and/or decreasing n-6.

    #9 True, but if you're on a hypo caloric diet it won't matter. You're still going to lose fat. That's basic energy metabolism. It's not necessarily the BEST way, but you'll lose fat on any hypocaloric diet.

    10# Dude, I want glucagon. "Why have glucagon" was just a sarcastic/rhetorical question. You've got to read it in context with everything else I said. I was saying that if you're on a diet high in carbs and insulin is constantly being secreted because you eat 6-7 times per day, than glucagon will not have much of a role, and you won't be taking advantage if it's benefits. I'll say it once again so nobody misreads me:
    YOU NEED INSULIN, YOU NEED GLUCAGON, THE DO COMPLETEY DIFFERENT THINGS, AT DIFFERENT TIMES, THEY BOTH HAVE GOOD AND BAD EFFECTS, LEARN TO MANIPULATE THEM!

    That's a really great book I've heard. I don't own any textbooks of that nature right now, but I'll have to get a hold of one just for reference.

    Also if I say anything that sound like I'm promoting low car diets, I'm not. I'm playing Devil's advocate a little, and merely point out other possibilities and considerations. I still want to know what you define "low fat" to be. To me, you start getting into the low fat category when you hit around 50-60g for a 80-90kg man.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    See this is what I'm talking about. You are not even comprehending what is being said. This is the main reason WHY they fail because leptin drops, cAMP drops and HSL is therefore decreased drastically. You will NOT release fat withouth adequate enzymes to faciliate their breakdown. This is caused be prolonged glyocogen depletion. What happens after that? The fed state slowly turns into the starved state and fat loss will stop no matter how many calories you drop. Please refer to leptin as to the reason why.

    It is NOT a fact that during a low car diet more fat is burned. I don't know where you are getting these so called "facts" from but they are completely wrong. Even the Duke study that backed this point was shown to be highly innacurate. It was showed that the release of fat greater but the oxidation rate was not. So guess what happens when they are not oxidized? They are converted right back into triglycerides.
    I've read on numerous studies, that low carb diets of the same caloric value as a low fat diet, result in more weight loss. They both lose fat weight, but the low carb tends to beat it by a significant margin - at least until you stall out.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    So you won't burn carbs during sleep yet you will burn dietary fat? Carbs oxidize at a rate 5x that of fats. Please check the thermic values. Fat is the lowest, protein is the highest. IOW, there is no carb fairy.

    Bro, this is BASIC nutrition.

    Please pick this book up if you really want to know. I don't know if you glycogen depleted right now but your are getting basic nutritional concepts wrong. I'm telling you if you read this book, you will tahnk me a million times over. Its a GREAT read.

    Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism
    by James L. Groff
    Why wouldn't you burn dietary fat during 8-9 hours of sleep?

    Your body proportionately metabolizes more fat at rest. This is fact. It doesn't matter that carbs burn 5x faster. Just the same, aerobic exercise proportionately burns more fat than high intensity activities. In fact up to 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories! This is because you spend lots of time resting between sets. If there's any time of day where one can guarantee a high % of fat usage, it's during sleep. Eating carbs for a pre-bed meal will have no physiological benefit - unless you happened to train like right before bedtime. If the body never found a time where it preferred fat fuel, than you would never be able to store glycogen and you'd be constantly depleting no matter what.
    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your body chooses to oxidize. This is unrelated. Thermic values are a good thing, carbs have higher values than fat for sure, but it's useless in determing when to eat what as far as macronutrient choice goes.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    #1 Nothing I said in the last post stated that glucagon and insulin are the same. In fact I stated how they are different and you need both at different times. I say different because you're right, they both can't be present in high levels at the same time. This is basic. I haven't argued this.

    #2 I know. I wasn't using the book to promote an Atkins diet. I was just using the term "glucose economy" as I believe it's defined.

    #3 It seems like we keep echoing each other with this, just repeating the same thing. What you said here doesn't in anyway contradict what I last posted.

    #4 Low fat diets have been proven to affect Testosterone levels. Low fat diets can also promote high insulin swings if you're not careful. I agree with you about low carb diet's effects. Also at no time have I stated one needs to drop carbs or follow a prolonged low carb diet. I would never tell any pro at your gym to do that. We should just talk about things I've actually said. Don't get me wrong, there are some people out there, usually non-athelets, that could stand to drop a few carb grams.

    #5 My "theory" is based on my own personal philosophy. When I'm dieting for fat loss, I want to find the best diet - the one that will allow the least drop of intensity in training. You won't read this in any textbook. This is not even a "theory" about a specific diet, so I don't know how you can say its wrong when it doesn't even talk about a particular diet.

    #6 Oh, my mistake.

    #7 What is "they"? I'm not igonoring energy metabolism, I'm wholeheartedly agreeing with 99% of what you say.

    #8 The conversion of EPA and DHA is VERY small in flax seed oil, possibly only 10%. It becomes less as you age as you lose the enzyme responsible for conversion. My flax oil bottle (Barlean's brand) says it has 11g fat per 1Tbsp. So you're saying that 1.1g is enough? Is this optimal? It may be enough, but I really think there are tons of benefits if you increase it. BTW, in case someone is wondering, fish oil doesn't have to go through these conversions and is a better source of EPA/DHA.
    Many things recommended on these boards are higher than the RDA, and for good reason too. Increasing n-3 suppresses cytokine which can decrease the production of cortisol glucocorticoids therefore suppressing cortisol. This is GOOD. Furthermore one needs to increase n-3 just to help balance out the 6:3 ratio. An imbalanced ratio is not optimal and there are many health risk associated with this. Basically increasing n-3 can promote anabolism! There are also a host of anti-inflammatory actions associated with increasing this intake and/or decreasing n-6.

    #9 True, but if you're on a hypo caloric diet it won't matter. You're still going to lose fat. That's basic energy metabolism. It's not necessarily the BEST way, but you'll lose fat on any hypocaloric diet.

    10# Dude, I want glucagon. "Why have glucagon" was just a sarcastic/rhetorical question. You've got to read it in context with everything else I said. I was saying that if you're on a diet high in carbs and insulin is constantly being secreted because you eat 6-7 times per day, than glucagon will not have much of a role, and you won't be taking advantage if it's benefits. I'll say it once again so nobody misreads me:
    YOU NEED INSULIN, YOU NEED GLUCAGON, THE DO COMPLETEY DIFFERENT THINGS, AT DIFFERENT TIMES, THEY BOTH HAVE GOOD AND BAD EFFECTS, LEARN TO MANIPULATE THEM!

    That's a really great book I've heard. I don't own any textbooks of that nature right now, but I'll have to get a hold of one just for reference.

    Also if I say anything that sound like I'm promoting low car diets, I'm not. I'm playing Devil's advocate a little, and merely point out other possibilities and considerations. I still want to know what you define "low fat" to be. To me, you start getting into the low fat category when you hit around 50-60g for a 80-90kg man.


    You are stating things trhat just don't make sense and are completely false. I have already pointed them out to you but for some you are not getting them. If you do not have the texts, I suggest you get them because you are butchering basci nutritional facts.

    You recommendations for the use omega's is right on, now go find how much you need to get those benefits. Its EXTREMELY small. Nobody is saying to to eliminate them but 1 tablspoon of Flax will do the job. Its in the literature backed by studies. Look it up and see how much linolenic acid you need to get the the amounts of EPA and DHA. And no this is NOT the RDA. You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right? I hope we don't have to go into lipid metabolism.

    THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa.

    Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon. You don't want it around peroid unless you want glycgoen to be broken down for fuel (in other words creating a catabolic environment).

    If you don't own any of the texts, please get something and read. You are not making sense with half the things you type.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    I've read on numerous studies, that low carb diets of the same caloric value as a low fat diet, result in more weight loss. They both lose fat weight, but the low carb tends to beat it by a significant margin - at least until you stall out.
    No, your wrong again. The low carb diet lost more "weight" but when fat oxidation was looked at they both were the same in SENDETARY people. Now put thise people on an exercise program and glucose becomes MUCH more dependent. All you have to do is look the studies up. It was conducted by Duke. If you want to argue thses points you need to understand them first. Releasing triglycerides means nothing unless you oxidize them. With an abundant amount of FFA's brought on by these types of diets you will NOT oxidize them quick enough. It sounds like you are getting your information from every low carb site out there withouth understanding what you are typing.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Why wouldn't you burn dietary fat during 8-9 hours of sleep?

    Your body proportionately metabolizes more fat at rest. This is fact. It doesn't matter that carbs burn 5x faster. Just the same, aerobic exercise proportionately burns more fat than high intensity activities. In fact up to 60% of calories burned during a typical weight training session are fat calories! This is because you spend lots of time resting between sets. If there's any time of day where one can guarantee a high % of fat usage, it's during sleep. Eating carbs for a pre-bed meal will have no physiological benefit - unless you happened to train like right before bedtime. If the body never found a time where it preferred fat fuel, than you would never be able to store glycogen and you'd be constantly depleting no matter what.
    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your body chooses to oxidize. This is unrelated. Thermic values are a good thing, carbs have higher values than fat for sure, but it's useless in determing when to eat what as far as macronutrient choice goes.

    Please, you don't even know what you are talking about here. Have no physiological effect? Are you crazy? Please go look up when optinal protein synthesis and hormone levels are released (BESIDES post workout) Carbs faciliate these hormone releases and aid in protein synthesis by keeping glycogen stores full and in the FED state. Fats DO NOT! You are so insulin scared its ridiculous. You are preaching what most low carb dieters preach who don't have a clue how the body works.

    Thermic values have nothing to do with what your chooses to oxidize?!!?!?!?!?!! OMG..... Thermic values are directly proportional to food energy intake and reflect the bodies absortion and digestion activities and is HIGHLY influenced by composition. In other words it digests and absords those foods that are higher FIRST, and fat LAST. You are completely ignoring the basics of energy metabolism AGAIN.

    You are BUTCHERING basic facts here.

    Serisouly what sort of classes have you taken?

    I'm done with this until you understand some basci facts. There is no point in continuing until you have read something. I don't know where you are getting your information from but you are highly mistaken.


    I suggest you talk to your professor because glyocgen is the main source of energy during exercise, especially resistance training and high intensity cardio. Fat is burned yes but glycogen is the main fuel source.

    DO you even know what the TCA cycle is?
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by IHateGymMorons
    Why wouldn't you burn dietary fat during 8-9 hours of sleep?

    Your body proportionately metabolizes more fat at rest. This is fact. It doesn't matter that carbs burn 5x faster. Just the same, aerobic exercise proportionately burns more fat than high intensity activities.
    You would at a much slower rate which is more condusive to fat storage because its extremely energy dense and will get stored easier (since your metabolism slows a great bit during REM sleep). In other words, they will burn both so your recommendatrion for not using carbs is ridiculous. Fats get stored faster than carbs do into adipose cells so what you are saying in that carbs aren;t utlized is COMPLETELY false.

    In fact they will get oxidized quicker and removed quicker than fats so your are REALLY wrong on this one.

    You can do either of them in the right amounts but saying carbs do not get utilized is just pure fiction.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    You are stating things trhat just don't make sense and are completely false. I have already pointed them out to you but for some you are not getting them. If you do not have the texts, I suggest you get them because you are butchering basci nutritional facts.

    You recommendations for the use omega's is right on, now go find how much you need to get those benefits. Its EXTREMELY small. Nobody is saying to to eliminate them but 1 tablspoon of Flax will do the job. Its in the literature backed by studies. Look it up and see how much linolenic acid you need to get the the amounts of EPA and DHA. And no this is NOT the RDA. You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right? I hope we don't have to go into lipid metabolism.

    THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa.

    Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon. You don't want it around peroid unless you want glycgoen to be broken down for fuel (in other words creating a catabolic environment).

    If you don't own any of the texts, please get something and read. You are not making sense with half the things you type.
    "THe way you word things shows you don't have grasp on some of these concepts. Stating that you don't want to have either insulin and glucagon dominant shows your lack of understanding. One always dominates the other. This is BASIC yet you state things in the fahsion which clearly shows you did not understand this during th time your wrote it. Stating "we dont one dominate the other" makes no sense. If you understood this then you would realize that one ALWAYS dominates the other. Thats how they function. When insulin is high, glucagon is low and vice versa."

    What I mean is that one doesn't dominate the other in a 24hour period. They need to take turns like a see-saw. Of course one will dominate the other at times, for example - spiking insulin after a workout. You just misread what I meant by dominate and must've skipped over the part I wrote in ALL CAPS. I must say again, though, that it's very hard to burn fat when insulin levels are significantly high, this is where and why properly timed P+F meals and choosing the right carbs come in handy.

    "You do know the body doesn't use excess DHA and EPA right?"

    The body doesn't use all the protein we eat for synthesis of new tissue either. Omega 3 consumption should not be limited by how much EPA/DHA the body uses. Omega 3 consumption has more benefits than just it's EPA/DHA. If everything can be accomplished by such small amounts of EPA/DHA then why don't we all just take 2 fish oil capsules and retire the rest of Omega 3's for the day. Then all the other polys can come from n-6 and we can distort our ratio like all the other Americans getting fat.

    "Leanr to manipulate them? This in itself show a complete misunderstanding in their modes of action. You don't manipluate glucagon."

    Wha about the word "manipulate" makes you think that I want glucagon to be high. You manipulate/regulate/control/ your diet to get the best effects out of both hormones. You want to use your diet to prevent glucagon getting out of hand. This is what I mean by "manipulate". It's not even an argument that diet greatly affects these hormones. Basic stuff.
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