Awesome 'Whos Fault' Debate

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    Awesome 'Whos Fault' Debate


    Who do you agree with?

    First Article

    Biology vs. Willpower: Is Fat Due to Our Food or Our Genes?

    By Jeanie Lerche Davis

    Feb. 5, 2003 -- Too many fat people are roaming this nation, but who -- or what -- is to blame? Is it the genes we inherited or that one extra cookie a day?


    Two researchers square off in this week's Science, addressing why more than 60% of Americans are overweight.


    Fat People Can't Help It


    In one corner: Jeffrey M. Friedman, with the Howard Hughes Medical Institute of Rockefeller University. He says that obesity is not a personal failing -- that we're fighting a battle against biology when we try to stay slim.


    The complex mechanism that regulates our weight -- triggering a calorie burn rather than fat storage -- is largely controlled by our genes, says Friedman.


    A key element is the hormone leptin, which is produced by stored fat, he writes.


    It's a vicious cycle. When we have less body fat, we have decreased leptin levels, which make us want to eat more -- yet reduces the amount of calories burnt. It's this "potent" cycle that that makes successful dieting so difficult, writes Friedman. "A primal hunger trumps the conscious desire to be thin."


    Yet this natural weight-regulation system works quite well in all but a small percentage of people, he says. In fact, the huge increase in massively obese people "strongly" suggests the possibility that there are people with a predisposition to obesity -- while others are relatively resistant.


    The so-called "thrifty gene" -- inherited from hunter-gatherer ancestors -- predisposes many people to obesity because they tend to store fat for survival in times of famine, says Friedman.


    However, those who descended from the Fertile Crescent peoples of the Tigris-Euphrates rivers -- or Western societies in more recent times -- have less risk of starvation, and therefore don't have a tendency to store fat. However, when we do become obese, we likely are "weeded out" by natural selection -- our bad health causes early death.


    "Might it be that the obese carry the "hunger-gatherer" genes and the lean carry the "Fertile Crescent" or "Western" genes?" asks Friedman.

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    Or this one

    Oh Yes They Can


    Get a grip -- willpower has much to do with it, says James O. Hill, PhD, director of the Center for Human Nutrition at the University of Colorado Health Sciences Center in Denver.


    Hill analyzed national data on obesity in American adults, which shows that 65% of adults are overweight, compared with 56% in 1994.


    "We found that people are gaining one to two pounds a year," Hill says "We're only eating a tiny amount more every day than we should -- no more than 100 calories more. But we're storing about 50 extra calories a day, on average."


    The solution is simple -- "eat less," says Hill. More specifically, cut 100 calories every day. "It means leaving a few bites of hamburger, putting the cookie down," he says. "Not much more than that."


    Then, find time for 15 minutes of walking every day. That equals 2,000 steps, says Hill. One foot in front of the other -- brisk, slow, whatever pace feels right to you.


    "These are tiny changes," Hill tells states"We've tried to get people to make total makeovers of life, but they don't stick with it. But these are small changes that are sustainable."


    But -- his formula won't make you lean, he admits. Here's the upside: "If you're overweight, you won't get any more overweight."


    In fact, his strategy is being tried in Denver with success. "So far, it's working wonderfully. Anybody can do it."


    "Obviously, genetics plays a huge role in body weight," Hill admits. "That's why some people won't ever be thin. And this obesity epidemic -- we understand so little about it. Of course we don't disagree. There's definitely a genetic component to weight gain. If we both eat 100 calories, I may store 80 calories, you may store 60. But if each of us ate a little less, neither one of us would gain weight."
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    YJ, this is great stuff. This topic really burns my ass. Fat, slovenly, lazy ****bags can sit and cry till the cows come home about their ****in thyroids, I'm not buyin it. Do you mean to tell me there are no people in 3rd world countries with underactive thyroids? If there are, why is obesity not a problem there. It all comes down to will, or lack thereof, in a fatties' cases. This country is the capital of immediate gratification. Keep eating a pint of Haagen Dazs and bitch about your thyroid fatty.
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    Totally agree. I tend to carry a little extra and I know who is to blame. It isn't my mom and dad. It's my own damn fault.
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    There are no doubt folks who are genetically predisposed to being overweight but that does not mean they have to accept being that way.

    It boils down to choice. I know because I was a fatty growin up and bf % is something I constantly struggle with. I think most of us have a bodypart(s) that we are not genetically gifted with. There's a thread titled worst body part here that many of us told what gives us the most trouble. But I dont think any of us would allow the lack of genetics to stop us from trying to improve that bodypart. Genetics is only part of the story.

    Lack of genetics may prevent you from being a cover model but it wont prevent you from looking your best, being your best and living a healthy lifestyle.

    If I go to Micky D's and eat a coupla big macs supersized...i'm not gonna be very healthy or have a low bf percentage.
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    Originally posted by scotty2
    YJ, this is great stuff. This topic really burns my ass. Fat, slovenly, lazy ****bags can sit and cry till the cows come home about their ****in thyroids, I'm not buyin it. Do you mean to tell me there are no people in 3rd world countries with underactive thyroids? If there are, why is obesity not a problem there. It all comes down to will, or lack thereof, in a fatties' cases. This country is the capital of immediate gratification. Keep eating a pint of Haagen Dazs and bitch about your thyroid fatty.
    quote, quote, a million times QUOTE. god dammit. fat people: appreciate the society you live in, but even if you don't take nutrition and health to the "extremes" that good bodybuilders or athletes do, you can still have a pretty liberal diet and maintain perfectly healthy bodyfat. ****. biology my big brown *******... no one is predisposed to be a 300 lb sack of jigglypaste. there are people who certainly deserve to be properly educated about things, and it's not always the obese person's fault specifically by any means but if a skinny ass bitch can grow 30 lbs of muscle and keep it, a fatty can lose 60 lbs of fat and keep it off.
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    According to a discovery channel documentary the only difference between people today and people in the 60's (when obesity was much less common) was that the average person then ate slightly less calories than today, but expended over 500 more calories than today in daily activities.

    Think about it, today carpenter's don't hammer much, they use nail guns. Trenches are not dug, they use mechanical trenchers. The introduction of computers and the impact on the workplace. The massive increase in industrial robotics. The improvements in transportation that require less walking and more driving. And the number of kids spending hours each day in front of the t.v./video game console and far less time outside running and playing.

    Furthermore, when you take the grossly obese people of today and surgically shrink the size of their stomaches, they lose a ton of weight. Consquently, it wasn't their metabolism or efficient fat storage mechanism that was making them fat, but the amount of calories that they were eating each day (a lot) versus the amount they were burning off (very little).

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    Amen, preach on, brother. And lol @my brown *******.
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    Originally posted by Biggin


    no one is predisposed to be a 300 lb sack of jigglypaste.
    biggin...u crack me up...remember what Arnold said? if it wiggles its fat..

    i wish somebody would tell me why folks keep thinkin of excuses and dont wanna look in the mirror for the person responsible for their own well-being??!!
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    Yes, preach on brother....good info.

    When I was a kid (which was all too long ago) we played tackel football after school, raced home from school on foot, only went home for a drink of water and then immediatley back out to run around. Now fat ass kids have PS2s, computers, TV they constantly sit in front of. And dont be fooled, this is the problem of the parents.....and let me run something else by you....


    Lazy ass parents who instead of making their children lunches and/or breakfast send them out the door with $3.00 or whatever a day to buy it at school..... umm.....how many say.. 8-15 year olds do you know who understand the Gkycemic Index and the difference between trans fatty acids and 'good fats'? Hell around here Id be happy if kids could spell glycemic. Its like murder in my humble opinion. Parents are 'too busy' to make a decent lunch for their kids so they ship them off on their way with $5 to eat a couple bags of chips from the snack machine (face it, thats what tastes good and its quick.. and a can of coke and a candy bar. Thats pathetic. Teach your kids and if you dont know, take the time to learn. Learning **** like this is free and takes maybe an hour a day for a week.... you're killing your kids people, congrats.
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    Originally posted by msclbldrguy


    biggin...u crack me up...remember what Arnold said? if it wiggles its fat..

    i wish somebody would tell me why folks keep thinkin of excuses and dont wanna look in the mirror for the person responsible for their own well-being??!!
    Cause it tastes good, bro. Don't you get it? And, it's fast, just drive thru and super size #2, you got it!
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    Thumbs up couldnt agree more


    I cant really add much... its pretty clear to me that, while biology can help determine your body's tendencies.... genetics doesnt force that donut down yer throat...

     
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    Originally posted by scotty2


    Cause it tastes good, bro. Don't you get it? And, it's fast, just drive thru and super size #2, you got it!
    ****, nobody wants to run 5 miles down the street to the McD's before they eat two thousand cals of starch and fat and then run 5 miles back home though do they? good points rvexler, good points... man every time I think about this **** I get pissed off and amused at the same time... the prevalent attitudes that people have are of course to blame as well... I worked in a warehouse for awhile and what to people do? leave the heavy lifting and extensive walking to me, and then talk about how they need to join a gym! lol jesus put down the krispy kreme, dont eat a corn dog and two orders of fries on your lunch break, you work in a warehouse for chrissake your job is moving **** all day!... just a brief example of what is obviously only a small part of the problem... I mean the average joe doesn't have to be a hardass about everything, but you do *have* to exercise MODERATION. this is a great thread by the way gotta be careful not to vent too much lol
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    Originally posted by scotty2


    Cause it tastes good, bro. Don't you get it? And, it's fast, just drive thru and super size #2, you got it!
    true dat..instant gratification....no one wants to work for anything anymore seems like. one thing i love most about bb is the journey and learnin how my body responds to different training methods, dieting, etc.....o kno i get ragged on at work all the time 'cause i dont eat "real" food!!!??? and they say this while eatin doughnuts andtwinkies...go figure!
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    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Yes, preach on brother....good info.

    When I was a kid (which was all too long ago) we played tackel football after school, raced home from school on foot, only went home for a drink of water and then immediatley back out to run around. Now fat ass kids have PS2s, computers, TV they constantly sit in front of. And dont be fooled, this is the problem of the parents.....and let me run something else by you....


    Lazy ass parents who instead of making their children lunches and/or breakfast send them out the door with $3.00 or whatever a day to buy it at school..... umm.....how many say.. 8-15 year olds do you know who understand the Gkycemic Index and the difference between trans fatty acids and 'good fats'? Hell around here Id be happy if kids could spell glycemic. Its like murder in my humble opinion. Parents are 'too busy' to make a decent lunch for their kids so they ship them off on their way with $5 to eat a couple bags of chips from the snack machine (face it, thats what tastes good and its quick.. and a can of coke and a candy bar. Thats pathetic. Teach your kids and if you dont know, take the time to learn. Learning **** like this is free and takes maybe an hour a day for a week.... you're killing your kids people, congrats.
    this brings back memories....'cause i remember not bein able to wait for recess, phys ed, and then go home and go outside and play ball...ride bikes...whatever...anything to get outside..

    nuthin like a lunch from home either...i doubt my mom knew about glycemic indices but i always had friut, whole wheat breads, and stuff that was good for me...and i liked it...and most other kids at my school had the same kind of lunches...my problems came when i started high school and started eatin like i wanted to...and paid dearly for it by being fat...lesson learned.
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    THE SAD PART ABOUT IT....


    The worst part about it is that once you reach a certain level of obesity, it becomes almost impossible to reverse for most people without medical intervention. Why?

    Imagine a 200 lb man in good shape, 7% bf. That's only 14 lbs of fat and a lot of calorie burning muscle. Now take the same man and add 200 lbs of fat. The difference in caloric requirement to maintain that extra fat works out to the equivalent of 1 Mcdonalds hamburger, fries and shake each day.

    Once you hit those big poundages, it requires virtually no effort to maintain it. Contrast that with the amount of will-power and effort it takes to maintain 7% bf and you can see that once you get fat, you pretty much stay fat.

    We make a big effort in school to "just say no to drugs" yet far more people will die due to obesity related illnesses than will ever die due to drugs. Yet, just about every chemical tool to get in shape and stay in shape is under constant attack from all angles of our society.
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    Wow, what an excellent thread! I must say that I agree with what Biggin, Scotty, and RVEXLER have said here. I am a firm believer in personal responsibility, and these days that is growing less and less. I took about 2-3 years off from BB'ing and got very fat, because of my own lazy habits and eating, no other reason, period.
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    Originally posted by jweave23
    Wow, what an excellent thread! I must say that I agree with what Biggin, Scotty, and RVEXLER have said here. I am a firm believer in personal responsibility, and these days that is growing less and less. I took about 2-3 years off from BB'ing and got very fat, because of my own lazy habits and eating, no other reason, period.
    Don't be so hard on yourself, pork chop, you got an underactive thyroid. You should be able to eat McDonald's, pizza, KFC, every day and not get fat. Boo-hoo, well maybe you'll consider a gastric bypass. YOu know all the fat ****in pussies are doing it these days. They should get a new procedure called a jaw wire/testicular implant. They can get a pair of balls and keep their mouths shut at the same time!
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    LOL he speaks the truth...
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    Great thread everyone.

    I have a very simple idea of my own about the problem.  The body is nothing more than a machine that adapts to its enviroment:  If the enviroment is **** then the body is ****.  I believe theres a lot more to it than just eating less.  Most people place very little demand on the body.  Just for the body to adapt and change for an enviroment requires an incredible amount of chemical changes almost all of which are fueled by energy from our diets.  Hence the metabolic increase from intense training.  If each lazy ass would just put aside 20 min 3 times a week to anhilate(sp) their body in the gym, not only would they increase this pathway of energy distribution, but they'd get an uplifting experience and have some feeling of accomplishment in their poor lives.

    Another thing that gets to me is how messed up our diet is compared to the diet our bodies evolved in.  There is nothing in nature that resemble a few donuts and a bottle of sugar water and its no wounder they cause some bad effects.  I don't think our bodies get the correct sign of fullness nor can the body process the incredible sugar rush without employing some fat cells to drain this rise.  Again from a biochem perspective its more than just a simple energy balance that can be fixed by smaller portions or such.
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    One last thought


    Interestingly enough, there is some good evidence that people who can easily store fat have been naturally selected. Keep in mind that it wasn't until about 10,000 years ago that agriculture was first practiced. Before that, (and even after that) there was no guarantee of a constant food supply. So, the ones who could fatten up most efficiently from the kill were the ones who stored the most fat, burned the least calories and could survive the lean times. The naturally thin ones would die out during the first famine (or the first bad winter) and be less likely to pass on their genes.

    Fast forward to the present where food is in an abundant supply and its no wonder there are so many fat people. I wonder though, will these new environmental conditions which no longer favor the fat-accumulators lead to a shift in the population to more of the lean-mean, burn-the-fat-like-there-is-no-tomorrow types?

    Perhaps by avoiding pro-creation with fat chicks we can further speed along the process? Just a thought.
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    I used to be a fat person. It's all in the mind, underactive thyroid my ass. ANYONE can lose weight.
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    AHHH the classic Nature vs. Nurture question. IMO nothing plays a big role in body composition than genetics and that includes steroid usage. We all know people who can eat junk food all day and somehow avoid getting fat and by the same token others just look at food and gain weight. Oprah Winfrey will never look like Kate Moss no matter how strong her will power is, however with a good strategic diet and exercise plan she can look like the best Oprah Winfrey she can be.
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    Why not both and solve the problem.
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    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Yes, preach on brother....good info.

    When I was a kid (which was all too long ago) we played tackel football after school, raced home from school on foot, only went home for a drink of water and then immediatley back out to run around. Now fat ass kids have PS2s, computers, TV they constantly sit in front of. And dont be fooled, this is the problem of the parents.....and let me run something else by you....


    Lazy ass parents who instead of making their children lunches and/or breakfast send them out the door with $3.00 or whatever a day to buy it at school..... umm.....how many say.. 8-15 year olds do you know who understand the Gkycemic Index and the difference between trans fatty acids and 'good fats'? Hell around here Id be happy if kids could spell glycemic. Its like murder in my humble opinion. Parents are 'too busy' to make a decent lunch for their kids so they ship them off on their way with $5 to eat a couple bags of chips from the snack machine (face it, thats what tastes good and its quick.. and a can of coke and a candy bar. Thats pathetic. Teach your kids and if you dont know, take the time to learn. Learning **** like this is free and takes maybe an hour a day for a week.... you're killing your kids people, congrats.
    You have this down to the "T"

    One of my friends has to get up early to take the bus so he doesn't have time to eat breakfast. Once at school he heads straight to the vending machine and buys a bag of chips, a chocolate bar, and a coke. He isn't really overweight since he plays alot of hockey. (Come to think of it, I only know two people my age drastically overweight). This guy could stand to lose 15 lbs though.

    These people still have unhealthy practices. The girls don't eat to stay skinny. The guys eat **** logs (chocolate bars) and chips all day. (But we play sports).
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    I had a guy here at work ask me how can he lose wieght, he has very limited time due to work and school and also doesnt like to work out, he said he didnt really want to restrict his diet either. So I told him whenever you go to work or the store, park all the way in the back of the parking lot, during lunch walk around the building for about twenty minutes and finally leave a couple of bites of food left on your plate each meal.
    Its been about two weeks and he has lost about 3 pounds, not much but after a few months of that it will be significant.
    I believe why most people fail at dieting is they starve themselves, dont lose the 100 pounds in two weeks like they planned and give up. If most people would just do like the second post states it would not be that hard. Its easier to make excuses and sue McDonalds than for people to take responsibilty for what they have done to themselves. Unfortunately, because we have scientists that want to help with the excuse making, we will always have a fat epidemic in this country.
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    We all know that certain people pick up fat easier than others.  Does this mean they are destined to be fat?  No.  It just means they will have to work harder than the guy who can eat whatever he wants and not gain a pound.  People say, even my own mother when I see her, that you'll never look like X or Y.  "Your not meant to be that lean... sometimes people just can't see their abs".  She isn't trying to screw my confidence, she just believes that people are born with a certain body type and stucture.  She is right in a sense.  I'll never look like YJ for example, he is taller and carries his muscle differently.  But I sure as hell can put on the same amount of lean muscle mass and get to the same body fat percentage... its just all in how hard your willing to work.  Your body is limited to your genetics in this sense (Height, muscle structure and build, "genetic potential", etc) but ANYONE can build a great physique and there is no excuse for extreme obesity. 

    So the answer is, a little bit of both...  Yeah, you may be an endomorph but that doesn't give you the excuse to go out and eat **** all day.
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    Fat - it's in my genes.
    I got this gene that makes me like chocolate and cakes and beer and mmmmmmmmmmm.........beer
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    Originally posted by CerealKiller
    AHHH the classic Nature vs. Nurture question. IMO nothing plays a big role in body composition than genetics and that includes steroid usage. We all know people who can eat junk food all day and somehow avoid getting fat and by the same token others just look at food and gain weight. Oprah Winfrey will never look like Kate Moss no matter how strong her will power is, however with a good strategic diet and exercise plan she can look like the best Oprah Winfrey she can be.
    That's not true. Ectomorphs, although it seems to many they eat a lot more junk, actually have less appetite. I think it's that they don't try to "hide" the fact that they gorge themselves so much because they're not afraid of looking like gluttons.

    I think one of the main factors is physical activity. Compare an endo construction worker to an endo computer programmer. See the difference? If you put genetically identical people into those two jobs they'll look a lot different.

    Genetics does play a big role, but not enough of one to produce an excuse IMO. Even "big-boned" people always look really good when they get rid of the extra body fat.

    David
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    Ectomorphs, although it seems to many they eat a lot more junk, actually have less appetite.


    Sphongled, its called having a HIGHER metabolism! Where the hell are you basing your facts on they have less of an appetite??? Sure some due but they are not genetic ectomorphs. A true ectomorph has a fast metabolism, just like a true endormorph has a slow one, regardless of "appetite".
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