ok,so no bulk, no cut...

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    ok,so no bulk, no cut...


    i'm having a little trouble like i think a few are out there. if i eat about 2500kcals/day almost no carbs except pre/post train, i lean out nicely. along with the loss of muscle & strength. recently i have been on ph/ps, increased calories to about 3k & eating moderate portions of carbs each meal with very little fats, & switching over to protein/fat meals at night, i find myself stronger, & gaining weight & FAT. i seem to just go to one end or the other. how do you guys feed to gain muscle maybe slowly & stay lean. any objective concepts appreciated.

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    I'm with you in that I still have no clue what my maintenance amount is. It seems like anything around 2400 and I start losing, anything around 3000, I start looking like a toad. I guess its just that I have very small room for error.
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    Yeah it takes a bit to find your sweet spot.

    Do what I do man.....Buy an Accu-measure skin caliper and learn how to use the parrilo 9-sight formula and keep track of it by taking measurements once or twice/week...

    Next, on that same day you take your BF, weigh yourself first thing in the morning after you do your deeds in the toilet....jot that down on a note pad and use the fomula to track and see how your bodyfat/LBM are doing at that specific caloric range that your consuming for the week...you'll be able to tell how much fat and how much muscle your gaining/losing at a consistent rate...and really thats all that matters; progression...

    This is a serious weapon to have in your arsenal to keep close track of your bodily changes and being able to do a clean bulk with great success....now it's not gonna be a very fast change since you'll be monitoring every week, but you'll find that by doing that and making minimal changes every so often that you'll know exactly what to do and when to do it basically.

    If you need the formula's to go along with the method, PM me and I'll help you out...
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    for me it's like i just can't eat carbs. i would think some oatmeal, brown rice, whole grain bread, potatoes, would be a neccessity when trying to bulid a little mass. i seem to just start gaining fat the day i start eating any of it.
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    Have you tried throwing in two or three sessions of cardio each week when you feel you're gaining fat?
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    maybe you're going about the fat portion wrong. If your diet is too low in fat your body is going to respond by storing all of it that it can.

    J
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    doing low level cardio 3 x 45 minutes/wk (recumbent bike). diet is like 50/20/30 (p/c/f) with variances due to post train shakes maybe. i have been cutting the sugars back from them lately.
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    What do you mean by low level? You could increase the intensity of your cardio if you're doing them on off days.
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    Julius, I don't know if you've read that "Step by step Keto diet" on a sticky in this section. But If you have the will power to follow that diet strictly, I highly recommend it. Through experimenting with my diet, I'm pretty sure that I have a lower insulin sensitivy than most, so I try and stay away from fibreless carbs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Mc
    maybe you're going about the fat portion wrong. If your diet is too low in fat your body is going to respond by storing all of it that it can.

    J

    Where did you get that from?
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    Quote Originally Posted by julius kelp
    i'm having a little trouble like i think a few are out there. if i eat about 2500kcals/day almost no carbs except pre/post train, i lean out nicely. along with the loss of muscle & strength. recently i have been on ph/ps, increased calories to about 3k & eating moderate portions of carbs each meal with very little fats, & switching over to protein/fat meals at night, i find myself stronger, & gaining weight & FAT. i seem to just go to one end or the other. how do you guys feed to gain muscle maybe slowly & stay lean. any objective concepts appreciated.
    First, I don't follow the no carb diets anymore because they are completely counterproductive once you hit a certain bf% and cause more problems in the long run than help.

    Second, if your getting fat its not because of insulin it is because of calories and types of carbs/fats you are consuming. Some saturated fats circutlate up to 9 hours in your system before breaking down. Add that with a carb source and you WILL get fat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Where did you get that from?
    I've read that a few times. The theory behind it is that if you are getting less than your body's required fat intake, that your body will keep it's fat stores for future use and in turn store consumed fats because it thinks that not much more is coming in. The body must recognize that there are external fats coming in before it will relinquish it's stored fats.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Oxlong
    I've read that a few times. The theory behind it is that if you are getting less than your body's required fat intake, that your body will keep it's fat stores for future use and in turn store consumed fats because it thinks that not much more is coming in. The body must recognize that there are external fats coming in before it will relinquish it's stored fats.
    Yeah, its exactly like how if you start starving yourself your body will shut down the metabolism. Fat is the body's contingency plan for times of dire starvation. Years of evolution have developed this mechanism. PLUS, if you are cutting way down on fat those calories have to come from somewhere...you got carbs and protein left...ok maybe ethanol but that would never work...so you either have to eat mega tons of protein or more carbs to get your calories. Its proven that when eating an excess of carbs your body will definately store nearly all the dietary fat you eat prefering to use the carbs as fuel.

    On top of all that the psychological effects of fat are important as well as their impact on leptin signalling and the fed state. Fats taste good and make you feel full and satisfied. Fats get too low craving become hard to manage, just evolution kicking your ass again. So yeah, there are lots of reasons I think low fat diets suck but I'm sure everyone has their own opinion on how things should work. I guess at the end of the day, know your body and go w/what works for you.

    J
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    It has nothing to do with the amount of fat you are cosuming, its amount of calories.

    Fats physiological effects on the fed state? Thats carbs not fat. You raise leptin levels by the intake of overall calories and carbs. Increased glyocgen triggers the metabilic effects of the fed state and leptin is one of them. Plus if you 12% and higher its really not much of a concern. Only when you achieve very low bf% does this really factor in.


    I don't know where your getting these myths from because they certainly are false. Its proven that when eating excess carbs your body will store all of them? WRONG. Carbohydrates have a better change of being oxidized more than any nutrient you ingest. Fats have the least chance and also have the lowest thermic effect of any nutrient. This is basic nutrition 101 that is taught in any college level nutrition class. If I consume excess fats or excess carbs, the % of nutrient being oxided is like 40% carbs compared to 10% fats. Increase carb AND fats and you have the real problem because insulin induces a rise in LPL while decreasing cAMP and HSL making fat storage optimal.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jay Mc
    Its proven that when eating an excess of carbs your body will definately store nearly all the dietary fat you eat prefering to use the carbs as fuel.


    J
    So eat less fat because 1 on those 2 nutrients has a much better chance at being oxidized as fuel and one has a better chance of being converted into triglycerides. I assume you know the answer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Oxlong
    I've read that a few times. The theory behind it is that if you are getting less than your body's required fat intake, that your body will keep it's fat stores for future use and in turn store consumed fats because it thinks that not much more is coming in. The body must recognize that there are external fats coming in before it will relinquish it's stored fats.
    They are wrong (whoever they are). Its calories, not fat.
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    After you look at your daily eating plan and get it stabilized....I would maybe raise your metabolism/expenditure with circuit/drop sets (after your heavy lifts) and instead of 3X45 recumbant bike, go for HIIT cardio 3X20 on an elliptical.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    It has nothing to do with the amount of fat you are cosuming, its amount of calories.

    Fats physiological effects on the fed state? Thats carbs not fat. You raise leptin levels by the intake of overall calories and carbs. Increased glyocgen triggers the metabilic effects of the fed state and leptin is one of them. Plus if you 12% and higher its really not much of a concern. Only when you achieve very low bf% does this really factor in.


    I don't know where your getting these myths from because they certainly are false. Its proven that when eating excess carbs your body will store all of them? WRONG. Carbohydrates have a better change of being oxidized more than any nutrient you ingest. Fats have the least chance and also have the lowest thermic effect of any nutrient. This is basic nutrition 101 that is taught in any college level nutrition class. If I consume excess fats or excess carbs, the % of nutrient being oxided is like 40% carbs compared to 10% fats. Increase carb AND fats and you have the real problem because insulin induces a rise in LPL while decreasing cAMP and HSL making fat storage optimal.
    This is good info right here Bobo....I never knew the oxidized rates of carbs vs. fats....

    But I DO have a question...

    My diet is a 30/40/30 breakdown of P/C/F....thats with a 5500 daily caloric consumption...

    Now with those numbers I get 412P/550C/183F.....does that sound like too much fat bro?
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    wow thats a lot of cals Jergo
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieTrying
    wow thats a lot of cals Jergo
    Yeah, I know bro.....actually thats a lot less than I was consuming...I was up to 6300 before....decided that I didn't like puking everyday though...
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    As DT said, it looks like to many calories.

    But if you insist on taking that much I would make sure most of your fats are clean. The last thing you need is saturated and trans-fatty acids floating around in your system for prolonged peroids of time.
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    Jergo...if you don't mind me asking, what are your stats?
    I've read of some powerlifters consuming that much, but most of it was not clean (lots of fatty red meat and gallons of whole milk a day). I would be a complete lard-ass if I ate that many cals, regardless of the ratios. I bet you can't wait for your metabolism to slow down.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    As DT said, it looks like to many calories.

    But if you insist on taking that much I would make sure most of your fats are clean. The last thing you need is saturate and trans-fatty acids floating around in your system for prolonged peroids of time.
    Yeah all fat comes from oils and some chicken breasts...thats it...and bump again for skim milk....I've been drinking it for about a week now and like it much better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DieTrying
    Jergo...if you don't mind me asking, what are your stats?
    I've read of some powerlifters consuming that much, but most of it was not clean (lots of fatty red meat and gallons of whole milk a day). I would be a complete lard-ass if I ate that many cals, regardless of the ratios. I bet you can't wait for your metabolism to slow down.


    245lbs. 5'10" around 12%BF

    Here, I'll post my diet so you can see how clean it is...

    Meal 1: shake, oil, skim milk, wild rice..

    Meal 2: 10oz chicken breast, wild rice,

    Meal 3: same as meal 1

    Meal 4: same as meal 2

    Meal 5: same as meal 1

    Meal 6: shake, chicken breast, oil....

    *actual numbers aren't posted but can be if asked...but thats all I really eat....sometimes I may replace a chicken breast with other meats, and make up for fats etc. by removing oil or something else...
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    Oh yeah, I'm on my prop now and I've actually cut back a little bit for body comp reasons....I keep losing fat and gaining muscle still...so, I ain't touchin' **** until that stops...LOL....I'm enjoying eating less and still maing descent gains for once...LOL..


    EDIT: Whoops...also, I cycle my carbs throughout a weekly protocol...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jergo
    I'm enjoying eating less and still maing descent gains for once...LOL..
    *ahem*toldyouso*ahem*










    PS- Still to many shakes in that diet, but I won't be greedy
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    Ya looks pretty clean to me. I couldn't eat the same thing 3x a day. If I were you (this is not advice, just what I would do) is replace rice with oats occasionally and chicken breasts with tuna (I LIKE TUNA ) .

    245 at 5'10 with 12% sounds good. Keep up the good work brother.
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    LOL @ Bobo...

    DT, thanks bro, I try but still don't have my abs showing unless I flex...
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    Well with all the calories you were taking in, no wonder!

    You diet just isn't optimal for fat loss and weight gain. I know you have your totals but its the way your body is metabolizing those nutrients that is keeping you back. You have hit that wall that 90% of the people I train hit. They think that more dieting or more cardio or more weight training is the key but its not. The majority of the time its their diet. Training is the easy part, dieting is not.
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    if there's one thing i do have is a titanium will. i don't worry about cravings or hunger too much. i do believe you can keep some variety in your meals. eggs, lean beef, chkn/turkey breast, fish, along with whey/casein shakes, should work. i would think one would get really burned out eating the same 2 meals after awhile, though i respect the dedication.
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    hmm, well then maybe 40/40/20 for awhile


    what is a good macronutient ratio for slowly gaining mass & losing fat? is there any preferred numbers? don't want to drop fats too low, or protein for that matter, but i almost wonder if i may have been doing too much protein (sacriledge!!!) i only carry like 170 lbs of muscle. i have to wonder if maybe the excess just ends up as glucose. i'm gonna try 40/40/20 (p/c/f) for awhile & raise/lower cals every week or two & see what happens.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    It has nothing to do with the amount of fat you are cosuming, its amount of calories.

    Fats physiological effects on the fed state? Thats carbs not fat. You raise leptin levels by the intake of overall calories and carbs. Increased glyocgen triggers the metabilic effects of the fed state and leptin is one of them. Plus if you 12% and higher its really not much of a concern. Only when you achieve very low bf% does this really factor in.


    I don't know where your getting these myths from because they certainly are false. Its proven that when eating excess carbs your body will store all of them? WRONG. Carbohydrates have a better change of being oxidized more than any nutrient you ingest. Fats have the least chance and also have the lowest thermic effect of any nutrient. This is basic nutrition 101 that is taught in any college level nutrition class. If I consume excess fats or excess carbs, the % of nutrient being oxided is like 40% carbs compared to 10% fats. Increase carb AND fats and you have the real problem because insulin induces a rise in LPL while decreasing cAMP and HSL making fat storage optimal.

    Here's one of the sources that I've read. Dr. Udo Erasmus. I would have responded earlier, but the only computer access I have is at work, and is limited to my little free time at work. Here's his website : http://www.fatsthatheal.com/writings.htm


    "Research has established that n-3 and n-6 essential fatty acids, but not monounsaturated, saturated, or trans- fatty acids play a major role in the body’s ability to burn fat. N-3 does it better than n-6. N-3 is inadequately supplied in the diets of 95-99% of affluent populations worldwide. In fact, our intake of n-3 today is only 1/6th of that found in diets

    in 1850, and diets 150 years ago did not supply optimum amounts of n-3. Our n-3 intake has declined to unprecedented lows.

    N-6 intake, on the other hand, has doubled in the past 100 years for people who eat the diets common in affluent populations. People on low fat, no fat, fake fat, fat blocker, fat substitute, and fat remover diets are likely to get too little n-6 as well as too little n-3.

    The ratio between n-3 and n-6 is far out of line with what it ought to be for good health and normal weight, and this has implications, both for health in general and for body fat and fat burning in particular. How do essential fats help burn body fat and make us slim? The answer has several parts.

    * All fats including essential fats suppress appetite.
    * Unlike carbohydrates, fats keep blood sugar and insulin levels stable, and prevent the high/low blood sugar cycle.
    * Essential fats improve thyroid function, and normalize metabolic rate and energy levels provided enough iodine is present in the diet.
    * N-3 essential fats decrease inflammation and water retention in tissues, (which is a large part of some overweight), and speed the removal of water held in tissues by means of the kidneys.
    * N-3 essential fats improve kidney function, making removal of excess water more efficient.
    * N-3 essential fats increase energy production, making it more likely that a person will be physically active. This, in turn, leads to more calories being burned, and increased muscle mass as a result of increased physical activity.
    * N-3 essential fats elevate mood and lift depression. Depressed people often experience loss of interest in life, and often sit around doing nothing. The better the mood, the less likely people are to eat more calories than they burn, and the more active they tend to be.

    Genes, Fats, and Healthy Weight Management


    Most important, n-3 essential fats affect the function of genes1,2, turning up several genes that increase fat burning, turning down the gene that leads to fat production, and turning on a gene that increases heat production in the body. Specifically, n-3 essential fats:

    1. Decrease fat production, by turning down the gene responsible for fat production (fatty acid synthase)
    2. Increase fat burning, by turning up at least 9 genes required for burning fats in the body
    3. Shift the body from using carbohydrates as fuel to using fats as fuel instead (fuel partitioning)
    4. Turn on a gene (uncoupling protein-3) that is responsible for thermogenesis. Thermogenesis is the process by which fats are burned off as heat, without work being done.

    So you can see that n-3 fats, which are especially lacking in the fat-phobic, carbohydrate junkie diets eaten by overweight people, are a major key for reducing body fat, and many different weight normalization mechanisms in the body are turned up by n-3 fats.

    Remember, however, that n-6 essential fats are also essential for building health and that the ratio between n-3 and n-6 must be right. Too much n-3 can lead to many health problems due to n-6 deficiency. Too much n-6 can lead to many health problems due to n-3 deficiency. Over the years, I have found that a ratio of 2: 1 of n-3 to n-6 in the diet gives optimum benefits in weight management without producing deficiency of either of the essential fats. "
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    All those benefits are true but they still have nothing to do with leptin and the fed state. Your basically giving me the same opinion that Dr. Atkins and any low carbohydrate advocate gives which I'm very familiar with. For the most part they are true, for SEDENTARY people. But when you apply those concepts to a bodybuilder who needs constant replenishment of glycogen stores and who physiological effects are altered by low bf%, the needs are changed.

    Nothing in your post is untru but you seem to be jumping to the more detailed area withouth even understanding that the structure of a fat in itself takes longer to burn than any carbohydrate. THis is the basic thermic value of any food. Its WHY 1g of fat equals 9 calories. Fat ALWAYS have a better chance of being stored as triglycerides than carbohydrates.

    "So you can see that n-3 fats, which are especially lacking in the fat-phobic, carbohydrate junkie diets eaten by overweight people, are a major key for reducing body fat, and many different weight normalization mechanisms in the body are turned up by n-3 fats."

    Its not just n-3 fats, its also controlling glucose levels with smarter low GI carb sources. Udo is selling the low carbohydrate method so of course he is going to concentrate on fats. You can easily have an adequate amount of N-3 and N-6 fats and STILL be on a low fat diet.
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    well put
  

  
 

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    Last Post: 10-01-2007, 07:29 PM
  4. NO Products while cutting???
    By hardestgainer in forum Supplements
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    Last Post: 10-04-2006, 02:48 PM
  5. Replies: 1
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