cranberry juice PW

[canadian champ]

Just wondering if gulping down a cup of cranberry juice PW is a good idea. Not sure the nature of the carbs (low / high GI) but, regardless, wouldn't this be a good idea for a PW insulin spike? You would also get the added benefit of liver/kidney health.
cc

[goldylight]

Just wondering if gulping down a cup of cranberry juice PW is a good idea. Not sure the nature of the carbs (low / high GI) but, regardless, wouldn't this be a good idea for a PW insulin spike? You would also get the added benefit of liver/kidney health.
cc

i dont think so - since it is fructose - but i could be wrong - if you want to go high GI route, use dextrose or malto. low GI - well - use a low gi carb like oatmeal or blend up a yam and some protein powder.

[jweave23]

yeah fructose will, according to most studies, replenish liver glycogen levels as opposed to muscle glycogen. Not bad necessarily, just not optimal.

[SwoleCat]

Go w/dextrose if you want the most ideal pwo substance on earth.

~SC~

[Dwight Schrute]

Ugh...

I would opt for a lower GI source.

[SwoleCat]

Why? What's the reasoning?

To purposely have something that is very slow digesting when it's most optimal to ingest something that is very easily digestible immediately?

I'd say you can include a low gi carb/lean protein as the SECOND meal post-workout, but not right after. Waiting around for absorption is almost like not eating at all in regards to your body and it waiting for the quick uptake of nutrients.

Again, we all have our methods, and success with each one. So, just curious that's all.

~SC~

[Dwight Schrute]

Because glyocgen depletion and catabolism is highly overated post exercise. The hormonal respons to exercise in itself in anti-catabolic in nature. This is also the time when nutrient signaling is at its highest so the need for such a drastic insulin spike is not necessary. There has been no study confirming that the faster you restore glyogen stores the faster protein synthesis occurs. In fact protein synthesis is at its highest 24 hours after exercise. If proper nutrition is followed the need for a large amount of fast acting glucose is not warranted. There is also the the fact the glyocgen synthesis is biphasic and the frist stage (30 minutes post exercise) is insulin indpendent. This stage is more reliable on available amino acids as a substate rather than glucose. Exercise in itself increases glut4 permeability so the increased amounts of insulin are not needed to achieve this to improve trnasport. This is just some of the reasons I recommend a slower more stable release of insulin that will coincided wiht the second phase of glycogen resynthesis. Thjere is also the the reaosn of increased glucose storage due to a high insulin spike. Studies show that not all glucsoe in absorbed by the exercised muscle and there is increase chances of this being utilized by other tissues, adipose tissue being one of them

[SwoleCat]

Only if one doesn't know how much dextrose to utilize pwo, would this be problem. As well, you can utilize R-ALA, V.S., etc. to help in this post-workout timeframe. I've tried both on myself and others, and there is no comparison as far as I am concerned. Studies are just that, studies, but I've always been one for REAL world application. So far I've yet to fail. Studies usually don't take real world application into account, and are controlled, negating much of what is practical.

Thanks for the opinion! Nice to hear sides to everything w/out any flame wars.

~SC~

[goldylight]

How much dextrose do you recommend PWO?

[Dwight Schrute]

I practice what I preach and it has worked on me along with numerous others that have followed the High GI hype marketing by most supplement companies and switched to this style. The benefit? Same LBM gains with less fat in all phases and this has been reported over and over again. Plus I don't agree one needs R-ALA or glucose dispersal agents if someone has normal insulin sensitivity. Glut4 recpetors are already increased drastically post exercise so the need to increase them more is pointless IMO. It would just increase glut4 receptors in fat cells even more so.

Just because you have yet to fail doens't mean their isn't room for improvement. Plus what would you fail at anyway?

[Dwight Schrute]

Studies usually don't take real world application into account, and are controlled, negating much of what is practical.


~SC~

Studies support basic physiology and are conducted in the real world. What I stated before is basic physiology. I don't undertand why people insist studies are done in a fantasy setting.

Plus I don't understand how a study on resistant trained athletes in a controlled setting negates what is practical. That doesn't make sense.

[Dwight Schrute]

Only if one doesn't know how much dextrose to utilize pwo, would this be problem.

~SC~

Its not the amount ingested, its the amount that is circulating. Since there is only around 4-6g of circulting glucose present in the bloodstream at one time taking in a large amount of fast absorbing glucose just increases the chance of LPL storing excess fuel (circulating TGL's) into adipose tissue. Increase glucose = increased insulin = increase lipoprotein lipase = greater chance of adipose storage. Why take the chance when its not needed. Glyocogen synthesis is the same at a 24 hours peroid whether its a high GI or Low GI carb.

[SwoleCat]

4-6 grams circulating at one time? U know this to be true w/everyone? Just as everyone has the same insulin sensitivity? Rhetorical questions........

Been reported over and over again.....where? To you maybe by those you know or work with, but we don't know their diet/habits/sensitivity to slin, etc. Those do play a factor.

PWO you have an increased uptake, so you can ingest more carbs, whatever the like, and have them be utilized in glucose replacement not fat storage. Lower gi's circulating over a longer period would have more of a chance to get stored, as if you eat too many and they are not shuttled into muscle cells or burned for energy, guess where they go? U can always say that " there wouldn't be excess, you ingest the correct amount" and then you go back to what I said about the right amount of dextrose.

All good man, like I said you have your beliefs/ways and I have mine. The key is to do what works for you, or for those you assist.



Cheers!

~SC~

[SwoleCat]

Plus I don't understand how a study on resistant trained athletes in a controlled setting negates what is practical. That doesn't make sense.

Because they study ONE aspect, the one we are discussing, and don't take into account any other types of diet/exercise/insulin sensitivity that can change the meaning of the first aspect. I.E., there are other factors that can have an impact on the result(s) of a study, yet those factors are not addressed when the study is carried out. We don't have any actual studies to look at to see what was taken into account, nor were we there, so we simply don't know what the actions were the other times aside from testing.

"Studies" can be said all day, fact is there are studies all over earth for both sides of the "argument", but what does that solve? Nothing really....because the fact is both of those studies (the summary of those studies) will work for different kinds of people! Each has to find what works for him/herself. I've found that in what I design, dextrose is far more ideal, but what I have myself and others doing the other 23 hours of the day will be different than others utilizing other forms of pwo materials, so therein lies a reason why some things might not work for others. It's all a part of one's "bigger plan" and cannot be looked @ just pwo.

What's nice is that you have a method that works for yourself, and I have a method I found works great for myself. You can see below that my method works for me.......

Hope that's clear.

~SC~

[Dwight Schrute]

4-6 grams circulating at one time? U know this to be true w/everyone? Just as everyone has the same insulin sensitivity? Rhetorical questions........

Been reported over and over again.....where? To you maybe by those you know or work with, but we don't know their diet/habits/sensitivity to slin, etc. Those do play a factor.

PWO you have an increased uptake, so you can ingest more carbs, whatever the like, and have them be utilized in glucose replacement not fat storage. Lower gi's circulating over a longer period would have more of a chance to get stored, as if you eat too many and they are not shuttled into muscle cells or burned for energy, guess where they go? U can always say that " there wouldn't be excess, you ingest the correct amount" and then you go back to what I said about the right amount of dextrose.

All good man, like I said you have your beliefs/ways and I have mine. The key is to do what works for you, or for those you assist.



Cheers!

~SC~

1. Yes it the same for everyone thats why its varying (4-6). Once you hit below that threshold is when metabolic changes occur (hypoclycemia, ketosis, etc..). There is a reaosn glucose tabs are 5g. This can be verified in any physiology book.

2. Been reported here and on bb.com and on several other boards. Its effects are greater in people over 25 since this is the general area in which natural insulin resistance starts to play a role. So you might try this in your older cleints as the effect might be positive.

3. Thats just not true at all. Nutrient uptake is increased but there is a threshold that can be easily passed. Like I already said insulin usually serves a purpose of increasing permeability in glut4 recpetors helping increase nutrient uptake during normal feeding patterns. This already occurs just from resistance training alone so the need for such a dratic spike in a short amount of time is not needed and the studies done on ahtletes reveal that insulin does not react in the same fashion post exercise.(1) Lower GI never has an increased chance of being stored over High GI because of fuel availability. Its also does not effect LPL levels like a high insulin spike would. Basically the lower the LPL the less chance of adipose storage and this is always the case when you compare low to high GI. This is basic physiology.


Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise.

[Dwight Schrute]

Because they study ONE aspect, the one we are discussing, and don't take into account any other types of diet/exercise/insulin sensitivity that can change the meaning of the first aspect. I.E., there are other factors that can have an impact on the result(s) of a study, yet those factors are not addressed when the study is carried out. We don't have any actual studies to look at to see what was taken into account, nor were we there, so we simply don't know what the actions were the other times aside from testing.

"Studies" can be said all day, fact is there are studies all over earth for both sides of the "argument", but what does that solve? Nothing really....because the fact is both of those studies (the summary of those studies) will work for different kinds of people! Each has to find what works for him/herself. I've found that in what I design, dextrose is far more ideal, but what I have myself and others doing the other 23 hours of the day will be different than others utilizing other forms of pwo materials, so therein lies a reason why some things might not work for others. It's all a part of one's "bigger plan" and cannot be looked @ just pwo.

What's nice is that you have a method that works for yourself, and I have a method I found works great for myself. You can see below that my method works for me.......

Hope that's clear.

~SC~

No they don't study one aspect. They study glucose and aminos uptake, synthesis rates for both glyocgen and protein and a host other effects. The list goes on and on depending on what study you use. These are in resistance trained athletes. The exercise is the same. The diet is the only factor that could be different and in that case would only help my arguement. A proper diet minimizes catabolic activity so the need to create such drastic spikes is even more uneccesary. Insulin resistance is also another key area that would favor my approach. When you take all factors into account the need for a drastic spike is uneccesary. THe ONLY reason you would dop this if you had glyocgen dpendent activity (lets say football practice) after a weight training session would glyocgen stores be restored fast. Other than that there is no activity which requires a fast replenishment of glyocogen stores for a BB'er.

And we still are forgetting that glycogen synthesis is insulin INDEPENDENT post exercise for up to 30 minutes. Why would ingest fast acting carbohydrates when glyocgen resythesis is insulin independent anyway? It doesn't make sense at all.


Regulation of GLUT4 protein and glycogen synthase during muscle glycogen synthesis after exercise.

Ivy JL, Kuo CH.

Department of Kinesiology, The University of Texas at Austin, 78712, USA.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following its depletion by exercise is biphasic. Initially, there is a rapid, insulin independent increase in the muscle glycogen stores. This is then followed by a slower insulin dependent rate of synthesis. Contributing to the rapid phase of glycogen synthesis is an increase in muscle cell membrane permeability to glucose, which serves to increase the intracellular concentration of glucose-6-phosphate (G6P) and activate glycogen synthase. Stimulation of glucose transport by muscle contraction as well as insulin is largely mediated by translocation of the glucose transporter isoform GLUT4 from intracellular sites to the plasma membrane. Thus, the increase in membrane permeability to glucose following exercise most likely reflects an increase in GLUT4 protein associated with the plasma membrane. This insulin-like effect on muscle glucose transport induced by muscle contraction, however, reverses rapidly after exercise is stopped. As this direct effect on transport is lost, it is replaced by a marked increase in the sensitivity of muscle glucose transport and glycogen synthesis to insulin. Thus, the second phase of glycogen synthesis appears to be related to an increased muscle insulin sensitivity. Although the cellular modifications responsible for the increase in insulin sensitivity are unknown, it apparently helps maintain an increased number of GLUT4 transporters associated with the plasma membrane once the contraction-stimulated effect on translocation has reversed. It is also possible that an increase in GLUT4 protein expression plays a role during the insulin dependent phase.

[SwoleCat]

Thanks for the response to the pm, I just hit ya back.

What do you think about dextrose for those w/normal insulin responses who do not store fat easily, even w/the 30 minute non-slin dependent window after exercise?

(I already know we have two diff methods of replinishing muscle glycogen as whole, lol)

Thanks,
~SC~

[Dwight Schrute]

Hit ya right back


Well I think it does depend on the individual. When I was younger I could eat just about anything and wouldn't gain a lb of fat anywhere. The benefits of a fast metabolism So my recommendations are certainly not for everyone as some get easily get away with the dextrose option but I thnk the sooner one learns to choose the right foods and whats most beneficial for overall health, the better off they will be down the line when age starts to creep in the equation.

Its an ugly scene when you eat just about anything for most of of your life and stay lean yet as 25 you look down and a little pouch is starting to form. Confusion sets in.....

Although adding quality muscle tends to be easier....

[SwoleCat]

Yeah, I hear that 100%!

~SC~

[WYD02]

Good stuff Bobo, I haven't really looked at it that way. When I first started...and after reading about the window of opportunity, greater uptake of nutrietns and aminos, it was just set in stone in my head...jack the Dextrose and the Whey postworkout. I think the best part about what you wrote was the over rated factor of glycogen deprivation post workout. Baring cardiovascular activity, I doubt that I am depleted which makes you question adding a bunch of sugar after a workout