CKD? Same thing as Warren Willeys keto run in better than steroid book it seems?

[medicone]

I have the book "Better than Steroids" by MD, Warren Willey and it seems that the CKD is just another version of a keto run, where one uses low carbs, 20-30 only per day while maintaining high fat and protein. after a few days, usually 10-14 you would have a carb, free window day. Is this pretty much the same as CKD? Willey recommends only doing any kind of keto diet for no more than 15 days, so Im thinking that the CKD has carb days on weekends, this is how you stop your body from eating all the hard earned muscle, where Willeys diet is based on shock principle and just rapid, quick fat loss, not long term dieting. That is my assessment. Also, where can I find out more about the diet plan for CKD. yes I did a search and could not find anything.

 

[BodyWizard]

The keto diet plan is easy:

- Eliminate carbs (even trace amounts in condiments & veggies add up)
- Protein must be the bulk (ahem) of your diet
- Elevate fats during the first ~48 hours (until you're in ketosis), then reduce.

Not familiar w/ Dr. Willey, but am familiar w/ the finite keto diet (TKD?). The choice between TKD & CKD is determined by your initial condition, your health, your goals, and your discipline.

 

[medicone]

Thanks for the response. Makes perfect sense. Oh, and by the way, love your quote on your page. That is awesome. History major, emphasis in Military History.

 

[ThomasRivera]

I have the book "Better than Steroids" by MD, Warren Willey and it seems that the CKD is just another version of a keto run, where one uses low carbs, 20-30 only per day while maintaining high fat and protein. after a few days, usually 10-14 you would have a carb, free window day. Is this pretty much the same as CKD? Willey recommends only doing any kind of keto diet for no more than 15 days, so Im thinking that the CKD has carb days on weekends, this is how you stop your body from eating all the hard earned muscle, where Willeys diet is based on shock principle and just rapid, quick fat loss, not long term dieting. That is my assessment. Also, where can I find out more about the diet plan for CKD. yes I did a search and could not find anything.

I find that drastically impossible seeing as in less than a minute a google search brings up a book.

 

[medicone]

Why does there always have to some a$$hole who has to put there two cents in. Stay off my thread unless ur constructive or can help

I find that drastically impossible seeing as in less than a minute a google search brings up a book.

 

[ThomasRivera]

Why does there always have to some a$$hole who has to put there two cents in. Stay off my thread unless ur constructive or can help

Same reason there always seems to be someone that can't put in a simple two word search in google and press "next page" and insists they have spent time searching :sgrin:

 

[medicone]

Ok, enough already scrawny ronny. I can tell by your stats that you suffer from little mans disease but, hey thats allright. Little people need love too, right. So after your done with your encounter group and have expressed your feelings and taken out some of that pent up rage on your counselor, why dont you.....oh fuk it you get the point, i'm telling you to go fuk yourself little man. damn bro, 5'10 at 179? well we were all 18 at one time before too. need a hug?

 

[ThomasRivera]

I don't see what a weight I put in my profile as to do with your ineptitude with searching for readily available, but nice try to preserve your internet ego

 

[justreading]

The keto diet plan is easy:

- Eliminate carbs (even trace amounts in condiments & veggies add up)
- Protein must be the bulk (ahem) of your diet
- Elevate fats during the first ~48 hours (until you're in ketosis), then reduce.

Not familiar w/ Dr. Willey, but am familiar w/ the finite keto diet (TKD?). The choice between TKD & CKD is determined by your initial condition, your health, your goals, and your discipline.

Would a TKD be better when you are already cut and looking to maintain and possibly drop lower

 

[BodyWizard]

Would a TKD be better when you are already cut and looking to maintain and possibly drop lower

All this talk about ketones had me going back to re-connect w/ Lyle & refresh my memory.

I was wrong above: SKD, the Standard Ketogenic Diet, is what I was thinking of; it's occasionally recommended by MDs as a compromise approach; it involves keeping carbs under 100 g/day, typically spread out over the day so there's never more than 25g; in practice, this is a lot like the Adkins plan.

The Targeted Ketogenic Diet is more extreme than that. Rather than relying on weekly refeeds (which can get pretty extreme all by themselves), the TKD seeks to keep muscle glycogen about half-depleted & involved carbs pre-workout. Some people use post-WO carbs, but that is problematic, since the pre-WO meal raises insulin levels; most people either skip the post-WO, or get real comfortable w/ using the ketostix.

The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet seeks to deplete glycogen completely between re-feeds, and involves a 5-6 day keto week w/ workouts, and a 1-2 day carb-up.

I've gone into this detail because it's really more a question of your personal temperament & metabolism: the TKD requires that you pay attention differently than the CKD, and one may be a better match for you. My advice would be to do which ever strikes you as more your style, and see how you like it. If you're happy, kewl; if not, try the other approach.

 

[ThomasRivera]

All this talk about ketones had me going back to re-connect w/ Lyle & refresh my memory.

I was wrong above: SKD, the Standard Ketogenic Diet, is what I was thinking of; it's occasionally recommended by MDs as a compromise approach; it involves keeping carbs under 100 g/day, typically spread out over the day so there's never more than 25g; in practice, this is a lot like the Adkins plan.

The Targeted Ketogenic Diet is more extreme than that. Rather than relying on weekly refeeds (which can get pretty extreme all by themselves), the TKD seeks to keep muscle glycogen about half-depleted & involved carbs pre-workout. Some people use post-WO carbs, but that is problematic, since the pre-WO meal raises insulin levels; most people either skip the post-WO, or get real comfortable w/ using the ketostix.

The Cyclic Ketogenic Diet seeks to deplete glycogen completely between re-feeds, and involves a 5-6 day keto week w/ workouts, and a 1-2 day carb-up.

I've gone into this detail because it's really more a question of your personal temperament & metabolism: the TKD requires that you pay attention differently than the CKD, and one may be a better match for you. My advice would be to do which ever strikes you as more your style, and see how you like it. If you're happy, kewl; if not, try the other approach.

I think if someone is going to do a TKD they might as well do a carb cycling diet. TKD you have to try to estimate your glycogen losses through the routine, even if you get it right you delay the point of being in a ketogenic diet in the first place.

 

[BodyWizard]

Have not tried the TKD, personally (seems overly fussy for my tastes), so I can't comment further except theoretically.

Theoretically, then: in a depleted state, the introduction of carbs - sub-insulin-threshold - should preferentially go straight to the muscles in the form of glycogen without spilling over & provoking insulin release. This ensures that there's some glycogen in the muscles to fuel the workout, but not enough to threaten ketosis.

Lyle used (10 years ago) 100g of carbs per day as his upper limit; however, variations exist between individuals, so some can consume 100g/day & remain in ketosis, and others can consume 50g/day and be bumped back out. Since we don't have a reliable porthole into the details of such processes, the smart thing is to learn how your body responds to small carb loads - and as I said, this involves the mastery of ketostix - and load appropriately, pre-WO.

Slight spillover would not 'delay the point' of ketosis, as a 2-hour wait for the next (carb-free) meal would wash out the danger of a return to carb metabolism. You would never leave ketosis, in other words.

Have not investigated carb-cycling outside of KDs.

 

[justreading]

I did a TKD once... then this year tried a CKD and could NOOOT get into keto.

Its so individual and apparently changes as you age

 

[medicone]

I don't see what a weight I put in my profile as to do with your ineptitude with searching for readily available, but nice try to preserve your internet ego

What I am trying to convey to you is if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say anything. A simple, hey bro, try this site, or hey I have this info would have been more appropriate and helpful. You just came off sounding like an a$$hole. SO, that being said, I'm ready to end this bickering and say were cool if you are willing to do the same. You obviously have good info and I would love to hear it if your willing to give it. Sound good? If not, well at least I tried.

 

[soontobbeast]

i like ckd.......although i am hoping i didn't overdo it with my last refeed....it lasted almost 24 hours.......not something i intended on lol. gained like 6 lbs. hopefully i lose it all and a little more within a couple days.

 

[DenDestroys]

In an article I read, on CKD dieting, it stated to only eat protein after workouts. Does this mean the whole rest of the day after you're done working out, or for atleast a couple hours I would just consume protein after working out, then add the fat back into the diet after a couple hours have passed?

Also, if I'm 13% bf, 204 pds, and 5'10"

I should be eating around 180g's of protein? 720 calories

And the rest just strictly fats until I eat about 2600 calories total for the day, which should start weightloss for me, correct?

 

[BodyWizard]

Can't comment on the article as a whole, but eating protein only after workouts would (arguably) give you insufficient protein - and would have you eating just fat the rest of the time: *not* the best way to get your body to free, convert & burn stored fat.

As for your other questions: you need to decide what your maintenance calories are: I can't do that for you - and neither can a general article. You need to decide on that, on how much to cut calories, how much protein you need as a baseline - whether it's per pound total, or just LBM, etc.

You need a comprehensive understanding of what you're trying to do. As I say, you will not get that from an article. I suggest you visit <a href=http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/">Lyle McDonald's site</a>and read as much as you can. I would further delay attempting a KD of any description until you better understand the nature of what you're trying to do & the way your body is likely to respond to it.

Lyle's book, "The Ketogenic Diet" is very thorough, but is out of print - if you can get a copy, even temporarily, your experiments w/ ketosis will be much more productive for you.

Good luck!

 

[ThomasRivera]

What I am trying to convey to you is if you don't have something nice to say, then don't say anything. A simple, hey bro, try this site, or hey I have this info would have been more appropriate and helpful. You just came off sounding like an a$$hole. SO, that being said, I'm ready to end this bickering and say were cool if you are willing to do the same. You obviously have good info and I would love to hear it if your willing to give it. Sound good? If not, well at least I tried.

Fair enough.

http://www.google.com/#q=ckd+diet&hl=en&start=10&sa=N&fp=KxYPMM6r3XA

http://books.google.com/books?id=JtCZBe-2XVIC&pg=PA128&lpg=PA128&dq=ckd+diet&source=bl&ots=dMMR86COAH&sig=cytkTOixlmlNiiz921K5ZMTJEY4&hl=en&ei=ZB1kSqC4LdKOtge41PjyDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

Third link down, the full CKD section from Lyle McDonalds Ketogenic diet, just about all you need to read on the subject from a practical, scientific stance. hence my post about me doubting you searching

 

[ThomasRivera]

Have not tried the TKD, personally (seems overly fussy for my tastes), so I can't comment further except theoretically.

Theoretically, then: in a depleted state, the introduction of carbs - sub-insulin-threshold - should preferentially go straight to the muscles in the form of glycogen without spilling over & provoking insulin release. This ensures that there's some glycogen in the muscles to fuel the workout, but not enough to threaten ketosis.

Lyle used (10 years ago) 100g of carbs per day as his upper limit; however, variations exist between individuals, so some can consume 100g/day & remain in ketosis, and others can consume 50g/day and be bumped back out. Since we don't have a reliable porthole into the details of such processes, the smart thing is to learn how your body responds to small carb loads - and as I said, this involves the mastery of ketostix - and load appropriately, pre-WO.

Slight spillover would not 'delay the point' of ketosis, as a 2-hour wait for the next (carb-free) meal would wash out the danger of a return to carb metabolism. You would never leave ketosis, in other words.

Have not investigated carb-cycling outside of KDs.

I should rephrase that then. I meant it stalls the ketogenic state for a few hours. From a pure fatloss perspective It seems like an interruption of its efficiency, specifically in Lyle's Book where he states on page 125 in his book The Ketogenic Diet "However, some individuals find they drop out of ketosis transiently due to the ingestion of pre-workout carbohydrates. Afterworkout, there will be a short period where insulin is elevated and free fatty acid availability for ketoneproduction is decreased. ...As blood glucose is pushed into the muscles insulin should drop again allowing ketogensisi to resume within several hours. Post-workout carbohydrates might be expected to have a greater effect on ketosis....insulin levels will most likely be higher.."


You wouldn't leave ketosis, but the burning of FFA's would be diminished.

 

[justreading]

Lyle himself doesn't even suggest CKD for bodybuilders.