Morning Carbs or Protein?
- 01-26-2004, 09:08 PM
Morning Carbs or Protein?
Okay guys this is more of a note than a question. I just wanted to pass on something I've observed over the years. I've noticed that many guys are opting to eat primarily protein in the morning. The science seems to point in this direction as the body needs aminos in the morning to replenish. However, one point that many guys also seem to miss is the need for carbs in the morning (assuming your not using a CKD to lose fat).
I've observed many times that guys almost eliminate carbs in the morning infavour of appreciable amounts of protein when trying to gain weight (muscle) and then wonder why they are having trouble. The body is craving glucose in the mornings just as it craves protein. However, if given a choice I would opt for the carbs. Since the body has gone without carbs throughout the night (and for many carbs were cut off for hours before bed) it has been forced to synthesize glucose from other sources. This comes from some fat and, unfortunately, your hard earned muscle protein reserves. By giving the body lots of carbs in the morning you can put a quick stop to the catabolic process. If you also include a moderate amount of protein you will be well on your way to replenishing any "reserve protein" that may have been lost.
While the protein used to produce glucose over night doesn't have a significant effect over any given 24 hour period it can become a significant factor over the long term of a bodybuilders bulking phases.
- 01-26-2004, 10:46 PM
Originally Posted by Gethuge
01-27-2004, 08:12 PM
first off I didn't say glycogen was low in the morning.Originally Posted by Lean One
During the night blood sugar drops....true....therefore carbs are needed to replenish.
Also the science supporting the need for aminos in the morning is not taken from any particular study just that the body has had to utilize other sources for glucose throughout the night, including protein.
My bad, you are correct in saying that fat is not used to produce glucose, protein is when blood sugar falls.
Bottom line here is that too many guys get overly concerned with protein intake in the morning ( and all day for that matter) and forget that the body needs carbs as well.
01-27-2004, 09:23 PM
[/B]Bottom line here is that too many guys get overly concerned with protein intake in the morning ( and all day for that matter) and forget that the body needs carbs as well.
i agree. especially if you work out in the mornings.
i used to train on an empty stomach but just recently i've been having some french toast with honey & cinamon for breakfast then 60-90 minutes later (a little bit longer if it's leg day ) go & train and been having fantastic workouts.
the the 2 post w/o meals also with carbs. i'm really getting results with this. i've also just started taking Swole so the combination of this is keeping me extremely happy.
01-27-2004, 09:40 PM
Please tell me you are eating an adequate amount of protein with your french toast.Originally Posted by Jag
01-27-2004, 09:49 PM
wHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS DUDES OPINION? Damn caps lock.
Itís really simple- protein and fat are good, protein and carbs are good, anything with carbs and fat together are considered a cheat meal. Why? Good question! It has to do with insulin.
A Carb is A Carb
While doing research into using insulin many, many moons ago there were a lot of warnings about becoming fat. For those of you who donít know, insulin is a doubled-edged sword when it comes to packing on pounds. Insulinís main function is to lower blood sugar. It does this by shuttling nutrients into muscle and fat cells. There are many studies out there that show that if you eat fat as a macro-nutrient it has a greater chance at becoming fat (on you) than protein or carbs. That is why high-carb, anti-fat diets became a popular method of eating. So if you eat a meal high in fat and use insulin it is a sure recipe for packing on fat.
Now this got me thinking like a natural for a second (please donít faint). If using insulin can make you fat if you consume fat, whatís to stop you from your own insulin making you fat if you consume fat? Thus a theory was born! If you are going to spike your insulin, make sure fats arenít around when you do it!
Now on to the obvious- protein. We need protein all day everyday and at each meal. We eat protein like this to supply our muscles a steady stream of amino acids in some hope of trying to make them grow. A problem occurs when we eat protein without carbs or fat. Our bodyís like to run on carbs. What happens to some extent when you eat protein without carbs or fat is the protein gets converted to carbs. This process is called gluconeogenesis- the making of glucose from protein. This isnít what we are after. We need protein to build muscle- not to be used as fuel, thus when we consume protein we need carbs or fat with it.
Why do we need carbs? Well technically we donít. There are essential proteins and essential fats- but no essential carbs. Well many carbs do contain value vitamins and minerals. Also carbs are our primary fuel source when doing anaerobic activity (fancy word for lifting weights). They are also our primary fuel source when doing aerobic activity although we donít want them to be. So the question we need to ask ourselves is not ďdo I need carbsĒ but ďwhen do I need carbsĒ. The carbs that we are concerned about are those that are stored in the muscle and ready to be used as fuel. When do we need this fuel? We need it when we desire an insulin spike. If you are cutting, this might be only post workout. If you are in a mass building phase it might be as soon as you rise in the morning. Insulin is a great tool in building muscle but as we all know it also builds fat. Even if you donít consume fat with your insulin, you still can get fat- calories in vs. calories out. If we are building muscle we need a surplus of calories, for cutting we need a deficiency. We can use macro nutrient combing to bolster the effects of insulin to be more muscle building or negate the fat building effects for cutting.
Not All Carbs Are Created Equal
Most of us have heard of something called the GI index. It measures how a specific carb effectís insulin response. Carbs are typically thought of as being either complex or simple. For our purposes here we will keep with the 2 varieties. A complex carb takes time to break down and be absorbed by the body. A simple carb- not so long. Itís generally thought of in non-bodybuilding circles that complex carbs are good, simple carbs bad. Now letís throw the GI index into the mix. Again weíll use 2 classifications. Carbs that have a high GI rating vs. carbs that have a low GI rating. The interesting part comes into play because not all complex carbs are low GI and not all simple carbs are high GI. This is where a lot of non-bodybuilding diets fall on there face. But how can we use this information? Letís make a chart. Across the top of a piece of paper make 2 columns and label them- High GI and Low GI. Now add 2 rows. Label them Complex Carbs and Simple Carbs. Thatís your chart. Now we can fill in foods to best fill the effects we want. Take a white potato for example. A white potato is a complex carb. It is also a starch and starches have a profound spike on insulin. So if we want a quick rise in insulin that will last for quite a time a white potato would be a good choice. Write white potato in the row for complex carbs under the column high GI. Now letís think of 3 more examples for the rest of the columns. For complex carbs, low GI we can enter carrots. For simple carbs, high GI letís enter dextrose (corn sugar) and for simple carbs, low GI how about an apple. This should give you an idea of why different carbs provoke different insulin responses.
Putting It Together
There are typically two modes body builders find themselves in- bulking and cutting. Letís look at bulking first. Bulking is the over consumption of calories in an attempt to pack on slabs of muscle. The trouble with bulking always has been that the over consumption of calories also tends to pack on slabs of fat. Experienced body builders view this as a ďnecessary evilĒ while those new to the sport constantly try to go on a ďlean bulkerĒ. Eventually, everyone figures out that packing on fat is just part of the game.
Well, nothing written here is going to change that. However, we can alter the muscle/fat ratio somewhat. By using macro-nutrient combing we can negate insulin spikes when fat is present in our food. This should allow for less fat accumulation during a bulker. Itís very hard to consume all the calories necessary to pack on a significant amount of muscle in a short period. There is no way we want to take fat out of equation for this reason and for the reason that fat is necessary in a healthy diet. But if we only consume fat without causing an insulin spike we stand a chance of not adding fat to our waistline unnecessarily.
Letís create an example. Letís say Joe Widelats decides to go on a bulking diet. Joe is an endomorph. He doesnít have much problem adding muscle; his problem is not also adding almost an equal amount of fat in the process. Letís also say for our example Joe lifts at night. Joeís going to wakeup and does cardio with only a scoop of whey protein or pops some BCAA tabs in his belly. Cardio done first thing in the morning when insulin levels are low allows for maximum fat burning. After the cardio, Joe wants to keep the fat burning process going. Remember Joe is an endomorph. If Joe was an ectomorph he wouldnít be doing the cardio in the first place.
Joeís first 2 meals of the day donít spike insulin. Now at lunch, Joe finally eats some carbs that are designed to move insulin levels up (but not threw the roof). Joe continues to eat this way until he works out. Now its post workout and time for our meal. Post workout is the time we really want to spike insulin- more so than any other time of the day. What we desire here is protein (of course) and carbs that will give us a fast and long lasting insulin response. We can use a whey protein shake and a white potato. The problem is that is usually takes a while to chew a whole potato. So how about whey and dextrose instead (since this meal usually happens at the gym, dextrose is also much more convenient than carrying a potato in your gym bag)? Then when we get home 45-60 minutes later, a lean steak, potato and carrots are in order.
Joe cuts off carbs before bed and his last meal basically consists of protein and a veggie. If you donít cut off carbs here, youíll suppress your own spike of natural GH. Natural GH spike occurs after entering REM sleep a short time after falling asleep if insulin levels arenít high. So this would be good practice no matter what body type you are.
Bulking for a mesomorph or an ectomorph might see insulin levels much sooner. Also some ectomorphs are the exception to the rule. They canít add body fat no matter what they eat. So they can go ahead and break the macro-combo rule.
Now for a look at cutting. Despite having added less fat than any other bulker that Joe did, he did add some and now itís time to start on the dreaded cutter. Again Joe will follow the morning cardio practice but this time instead of raising insulin levels mid-day, Joe wonít raise them at all until itís time to lift. You see, stored body fat will not be used as long as long as insulin levels are elevated. So it is our desire to keep insulin levels low all day with the exception of post workout to allow stored body fat to be burned. We will be consuming protein/fat meals for this effect. A steak and very low GI, slow releasing foods like carrots can comprise a meal or a chicken breast salad with Olive Oil (yum-yum) dressing.
Now after lifting, we have burned threw are stored glucose and this is the one time of day an insulin spike is desired. Insulin is the only hormone that stands a chance of combating cortisol- released from our workout. It still looses but it knocks cortisol levels down a notch or two before surrendering in defeat. Also exercise itself has sensitized our muscle cell insulin receptors and desensitized our fat cell insulin receptors (isnít lifting weights great). So this is the time for some carbs, spiking insulin, fighting cortisol and replenishing those drained muscles. Oh yeah, letís throw some protein in there too to prevent them from wasting away.
So our post workout meal of whey/dextrose is in order. Insulin will be raised high but not for long period. Afterwards we resume our non-insulin spiking meals. This is making insulin work for you in preventing muscle loss while maximizing stored fat burning. This again is going to be the best cutter Joe has ever had.
By following a macro combining game plan, you can effectively make insulin work for you (instead of against) more times than not- speeding up your body building goals no matter what they may be. Just remember that Insulin is a double-edged sword and itís very important that you donít end up cutting your progress from gripping it wrong!
Till next time- LA out and itís ďJust My OpinionĒ!
01-27-2004, 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Lean One
yep, sorry. i also have a whey/egg white shake as well but i sometimes have this while i'm on my way to the Gym and finish it half way through the w/o.
01-27-2004, 10:13 PM
Why make such a big deal out of this guys? I mean you need what your body needs, a complete balanced meal to jump start the day and get out of catabolism, of course we are bodybuilders and we must quickly replenish our amino acid pool.
01-28-2004, 07:52 AM
Dude, that was one long ass post. I can't type worth a ****, so I'll try to adress some of your main points by using myself and my real world experience as an example.Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
To answer your first question, I disagree with his "opinion". The whole Idea here is to MANAGE insulin. The Idea that if you only consume protein and carbs in the absense af fat you won't get fat is flawed. If you do that and your body is not in a carb depleted state ie post WO, The exess carbs will be stored as fat. This can happen even PWO if you consume too many carbs. In the late 80's early 90's, every one jumped on the low fat high carb bandwagon.What happened?? Obesity rose 33%!
The idea that you can only bulk or cut is also a myth. Steady recompotition is possible. You just need to train your body to Burn fat and build muscle efficiently. Over the last 2 yrs, I have gained 20lbs of muscle, gained considerable strength, and did it while simultaneously Taking my bodyfat from 17% down to 5%.
You Train your body to do this by Managing insulin through propper nutrition and exercise application. If you want to know more, take a look at my sinature. Go to Intrafitt.com and check it out. If you have questions after that I would be happy to adress them. I'm not trying to knock you down here. Many of your Ideas are on track. There is just a much bigger picture to look at. Again, I'm speaking from my own personal experience here. I use this system on myself and with my clients. Together we have lost HUNDREDS of lbs of fat, and added many many lbs of muscle.
01-28-2004, 06:20 PM
Yeah, i can see all that muscle in your picture, you only weigh 160. You could not gain fat if you wanted to. LOL
Like the article said. if your a hardgainer for fat and muscle. Than you dont need to follow this schedule. Carbs are good for little guys and bad for fat guys.
Losing fat is different for everybody. You know, like taking body type and composition into account.
He also says fat receptors are shut off after intense exercise, so you cannot add fat after a workout anyway.
Anybody have an opinion on this.
01-28-2004, 06:29 PM
Do you have anything constructive to offer? I'm not giving an opinion only facts.Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
01-28-2004, 06:33 PM
Lean one, you said yourseldf in another thread. You are so happy to be at 160 because you worked so hard to add some muscle over the years. I hardly think you need to worry about this thread.
Last edited by Yimen E.Cricket; 01-28-2004 at 07:11 PM.
01-28-2004, 08:15 PM
01-28-2004, 09:28 PM
No worries man. I was just offering a qualified response to a post. I responded because I've been on both sides of the fence. You need to understand that I have a small frame. I'm only 5'7". I was a twig in highschool. My best attempts at "bulking up" in the past had me weighing in at 175 and looking like a chub. It wasn't until I learned about nutrition and applied that knowledge that I got the look I wanted. Considering that when I weighed 175, my LBM was 140,I think My experience could prove useful to others.I'm only sharing what has worked for me. That's what we do here isn't it? I would apreciate it if you could keep your belittleing coments to yourself in the future. ThanksOriginally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
01-29-2004, 12:02 AM
Well i think your post was a little smart ass , but i also tend to fly of the handle. I really dont care about the article i posted, nor do i use it, you just assumed that, and i could sense it in your tone.
You said in the post above that you can easily add muscle while burning fat. and you do not have to seperate bulkimg from cutting. But i say your way is for fitness, not bodybuilding.
Last edited by Yimen E.Cricket; 01-29-2004 at 05:41 AM.
01-29-2004, 07:50 AM
My apolligies. I diddn't think you took that info as the only way. Sorry if I came off like I was lecturing.Originally Posted by Yimen E.Cricket
I never said what I did was easy. I have to work my ass off to accomplish that. Like I said. This is only me and my experience. I used to bulk up to a FAT 175, and then cut do an emaciated 142. I diddn't look very good in either condition. I much preffer the results I get now. I'm not implying that this is you, but I see a lot of dudes in the gym that walk around like they are king **** when thet are carrying 50 lbs of fat on their frame. It's delusional. It would be very easy for me to pick up 30 lbs of fat and tip the scales at 190, but I've been there done that; in a manner of speaking.
Again, my apolligies. I will now remove myself from this thread unless there is something useful that I can offer.
01-29-2004, 11:50 AM
Brother. If you guys get any more apologetic with each other, you will have to start kissing. Good discussion BTW.
01-29-2004, 01:15 PM
I carry around 50lbs of fat during a bulking cycle. I am 5'10 but I am at 250. So I don't know what you are to trying to say. For me 30lbs of fat would be 11-12%BF I am there are lots of bros out there that are the same way. That why most people use BF%. Also the more I read about what you said the more upset I get about it!Originally Posted by Lean One
As for me I do a nice shake in the with a banana whey/cas and milk. For the most part I keep my carbs low when cutting or on non lifting days. Thats just what works best for me.
01-29-2004, 01:55 PM
Again, my apolligies. I will now remove myself from this thread unless there is something useful that I can offer. [/QUOTE]
02-06-2004, 02:18 PM
to throw everyone off, go read that.
then read this
then start the thread over and talk about glycogen in the morning
when you wake up, you have just fasted, its that simple..i mean unless you wake up and eat something most people have not eaten lets say for at least 4 or 5 hours..(like me) or some actually get sleep and fast for a good 8-9 hrs
with that said..I think we can stop arguing about who said blood sugar is low in the morning and who said that glycogen supplies are not...
02-06-2004, 02:20 PM
and btw..to answer the main question...it is both!
if you want to funtion properly, and be able to think straight you need carbs..
that doesnt mean eat 250 grams of them in the morning when you wake up, some smarts are still needed about a "well balanced" diet...but you do need both...
if you are doing the exremely low carb thing..don't do it for very long IMO..
02-06-2004, 02:28 PM
Low carb is the way to go for dieting at least for me. Ketosis is a great thing, who needs carbs in the morning when your body is burning fat all night and all day. Lets all say it together CKD CKD CKD!!!!
02-06-2004, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by FTMGuy
right, but Im saying I wouldn't do this for extended periods personally. If you don't have to think much then go for it..lol
and also lack of carbs makes your muscles look flat
02-06-2004, 03:24 PM
It not really lack of carbs its lack of water in your muscle from lack of sugar. Also you can do a CKD for a months at a time. But you do a carb up every week for 36hr to get your sugar lvls back up for a short time which also helps get your leptin lvls back up. Something that really helps with fat loss.
P.S. I know its not sugar but i am I firm believer in K.I.S.S.
02-06-2004, 03:34 PM
yeah, im not saying it from a bb stand point, i meant from regular life standpoint..for a job like mine, where i really need my head to be on right, i can't do extremely low carbs for too long b/c im spaced out and tired..lolOriginally Posted by FTMGuy
lack of carbs = lack of sugar..lol..generally speaking
hence the "carb up" to restore sugar etc.
anyway..i wasn't debating i was just clarifying..or trying to shed some light on what glycogen is and whats going on in the morning after a "fast"
02-06-2004, 03:38 PM
Hrm... most of the information I've read on ketosis states that between the 3rd and 6th weeks, the body becomes efficient at using ketones appropriately and no longer faces the "brain mush" situation. Are you saying this is incorrect?Originally Posted by hamper19
02-06-2004, 03:46 PM
I don't know if its correct biatch..lol...
all I know is 30% of "sugar" in your body is used by the brain to funtion properly... and Im in no way an expert in the area of ketosis
all i was trying to do was point the first few posters in the right direction regarding glycogen vs. "carb" depletion in the am..
but anyway...now that you've got me started..lol
02-06-2004, 03:49 PM
That is correct for me it takes about a week to get use to burning keytones (they say to go at least 10-14 days before your first carb up for this reason). Then the brain fog is gone and I think clearly again. Also get a really bad head ache when my body switches from sugars to fats. You find alot of people talk about the brain fog. To me thats easy to deal with. Its your breath and the smell of your pee that really sucks.
02-06-2004, 03:53 PM
To get back on track. Thats why its best to run early in the morning on a carb based diet as I like to call them. Your body will burn mostly fat because, your body is low on sugar. That is if you are trying to loss weight. If your are trying to gain weight eat to min you wake up..
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