Weight Loss...Steroids? Clen?

[Tuffshift]

Right now im about 245 Lbs, 5'11", approx 27% BF...

Im nailing my diet down to low carbs, and small meals/snacks every 2 hours.

Im going to start taking clen, and was told about steroids being of some assistance (something about "Test 300")

Anyhoo..Is Diet/Cardio Best for me to loose weight fast/in a healthy manner?

Or would Steroids assist is Pure Fat loss? Im looking to shed about 45 lbs(Get back to me '05 weight), and do it in a fast, but healthy manner. I know I wouldnt loose too much weight number wise with steroids, but looking to shed all my fat...

Biggest thing is I dont want to worry about "Monster Muscles"...I want to be toned, but not insane...my main focus is getting some noticable muscle on my arms, loosing all my gut and manboobs..and look overall healthy but avoiding the "BodyBuilder" Figure..I guess what im trying to say Is i dont want to look insanely large.

 

[EasyEJL]

Clen is bad, steroids are bad.

Guys work for years to get the insanely large look, you dont have to worry about getting there accidentally.

Work on diet + cardio, for cardio do only what you plan to do the rest of your life. Otherwise as you kinda can see for yourself, even if you get back down to your weight of 4 years ago for a short while, if you don't LIVE that weight, you'll just be back at 245 in a short while. So make life changes that you can live with long term.

 

[Tuffshift]

Work on diet + cardio, for cardio do only what you plan to do the rest of your life. Otherwise as you kinda can see for yourself, even if you get back down to your weight of 4 years ago for a short while, if you don't LIVE that weight, you'll just be back at 245 in a short while. So make life changes that you can live with long term.

Yes, Being Lazy + health issues Owned me.

I just want additional help getting back to my old weight, from there I can maintain it...im rather motivated when I see results, versus just assuming something happening...

 

[elementrip]

Use supps not gear if you want assistance. You know the more basic ones even. Fish oils, CLA, I just started taking DCP and love it. It uses L-carnitine and other substances to get your body running off adipose (fat) stores instead of glucose. Cardio daily, with a well created diet suited for yourself would give phenominal results. Besides Clen isnt the wonder drug of the century or anything in regards to fat burning. If you're at 27% as you say then your main concern should be diet above all else. If you feel you NEED assistance use legal supps.... They will aid in your desired goal weight and BF%.

What does your current diet look like other than timing? Like each meals contents. Also what are your current weight training and cardio regimens looking like?

 

[Tuffshift]

Use supps not gear if you want assistance. You know the more basic ones even. Fish oils, CLA, I just started taking DCP and love it. It uses L-carnitine and other substances to get your body running off adipose (fat) stores instead of glucose. Cardio daily, with a well created diet suited for yourself would give phenominal results. Besides Clen isnt the wonder drug of the century or anything in regards to fat burning. If you're at 27% as you say then your main concern should be diet above all else. If you feel you NEED assistance use legal supps.... They will aid in your desired goal weight and BF%.

What does your current diet look like other than timing? Like each meals contents. Also what are your current weight training and cardio regimens looking like?

I dont want to sound like a newb, but I am...


For diet...I havnt got a "list" going...I just try to eat smarter...

today, I had 3 egg whites, next meal was a nutrigrain bar, next meal was
a rice cake, next meal was a piece of grilled chicken, you see the trend...I dont know how to go about making a strict diet plan....that and Im not a veggi or fruit guy...so that may be my biggest hurdle..

As for Gym...1 day ill go and use the elyptical(however its spelt) for 1 hour...4.5 to 5 miles...then work my legs for a bit..done.

Next day, Elyptical for 30 minutes, about 2+ miles...then free weights, and upper body/some abs..

I just cycle between those two things...

As i said, I havnt a clue about diet plans, and not familiar with workout machine names, etc...but I know I get enough cardio in.

 

[XplodeWithMe]

Clen is bad, steroids are bad.

Guys work for years to get the insanely large look, you dont have to worry about getting there accidentally.

Work on diet + cardio, for cardio do only what you plan to do the rest of your life. Otherwise as you kinda can see for yourself, even if you get back down to your weight of 4 years ago for a short while, if you don't LIVE that weight, you'll just be back at 245 in a short while. So make life changes that you can live with long term.

I totally agree with the diet and cardio and getting everything back on track for him. He should look into the article by Layne Norton for cutting advice but as far as what I can give for him here is:

1.2 to 1.5g/lb of bodyweight for protein
1 to 2g/lb for carbs
.2 to .3g of fat

Carb partitioning
25% morning
20% preworkout
25% postworkout (simple carbs here, all other meals complex)
30% spread throughout other meals of the day

And also as far as the "clen is bad, steroids are bad" comment, I realize that you mean for him, but I would like to say that neither is "bad", but they just aren't for him to use at this point in time. If proper research is done, then possibly later on they could come into play, but not right now.

 

[Tuffshift]

I totally agree with the diet and cardio and getting everything back on track for him. He should look into the article by Layne Norton for cutting advice but as far as what I can give for him here is:

1.2 to 1.5g/lb of bodyweight for protein
1 to 2g/lb for carbs
.2 to .3g of fat

Carb partitioning
25% morning
20% preworkout
25% postworkout (simple carbs here, all other meals complex)
30% spread throughout other meals of the day

And also as far as the "clen is bad, steroids are bad" comment, I realize that you mean for him, but I would like to say that neither is "bad", but they just aren't for him to use at this point in time. If proper research is done, then possibly later on they could come into play, but not right now.

Thanks Explode...Stupid question, but would I just google standard gram ratio's and assume from there, or is there an efficient weight to 'meansure' these?

 

[XplodeWithMe]

I assume you mean for your food so here's a good site that will give you macro breakdowns: ntwrks.com/~mikev/chart1.htm l

 

[elementrip]

Thanks Explode...Stupid question, but would I just google standard gram ratio's and assume from there, or is there an efficient weight to 'meansure' these?

The gram ratio he stated. (not being a sarcastic **** just hoping you see what i mean) its based on your body weight.

 

[Tuffshift]

The gram ratio he stated. (not being a sarcastic **** just hoping you see what i mean) its based on your body weight.

Right, I was just confused on how i actually measure the 'foods' now i have a decent idea...

Overall this "ratio" of intake daily...is this considered a Diet Ratio, or a normal health person intake?

 

[elementrip]

I dont want to sound like a newb, but I am...


For diet...I havnt got a "list" going...I just try to eat smarter...

today, I had 3 egg whites, next meal was a nutrigrain bar, next meal was
a rice cake, next meal was a piece of grilled chicken, you see the trend...I dont know how to go about making a strict diet plan....that and Im not a veggi or fruit guy...so that may be my biggest hurdle..

As for Gym...1 day ill go and use the elyptical(however its spelt) for 1 hour...4.5 to 5 miles...then work my legs for a bit..done.

Next day, Elyptical for 30 minutes, about 2+ miles...then free weights, and upper body/some abs..

I just cycle between those two things...

As i said, I havnt a clue about diet plans, and not familiar with workout machine names, etc...but I know I get enough cardio in.

You're going to have to break that fruit and veggie guy thing. When you're restricting calories to put your self at a deficit you're going to learn to love salads, massive amounts of water, and gum lol.

Your A/B split isnt bad. I've always liked a little more specific 3-4 at least split. Your cardio is decent. Keep your body guessing though dont just get settled into eliptical and only do that. Use the bike, and stairmaster (best overall cardio IMO).

And about your previous comment, Really dont apologise for being a newb. At least your proactive about your health, thats the biggest part!

 

[elementrip]

Right, I was just confused on how i actually measure the 'foods' now i have a decent idea...

Overall this "ratio" of intake daily...is this considered a Diet Ratio, or a normal health person intake?

This is for someone trying to clean up. More fats and protein are usually incorporated and more carbs for sure in a bulk. If you use his recommendation you'll find yourself seeing gradual improvements week to week without a doubt!!

 

[Tuffshift]

This is for someone trying to clean up. More fats and protein are usually incorporated and more carbs for sure in a bulk. If you use his recommendation you'll find yourself seeing gradual improvements week to week without a doubt!!

Awesome, thank you for your time...I know it may be nothing..

but for some, like myself...advice like this is more than golden.

 

[EasyEJL]

Yes, Being Lazy + health issues Owned me.

I just want additional help getting back to my old weight, from there I can maintain it...im rather motivated when I see results, versus just assuming something happening...

But see really, if that was true, then why aren't you still that weight? If you could maintain it, why didn't you? being lazy probably hasnt changed and health issues happen at times. So the trick is to get yourself into a lifestyle where those things dont' have much effect. sooooooo

Forget about macros. Forget about counting calories precisely, forget about hours and hours of cardio. You need to figure out how to live in a way that you can maintain long term. Where there isn't a goal you reach then stop. This means changing a number of habits for life.

Out comes my standard post on this

I'm 5'9.5", and I hit 245 and near 50% bf at that, as I was totally sedentary. Today i'm right at 203, and around 14-15% bf, slowly improving.


you need to forget about "dieting" and instead learn how to eat. you can't view what you are doing as a phase or something you'll stop once you reaches x goal, it has to be a change of life.

Lets just say you wants to get down to 190lbs. All you really needs to do is eat what maintenance would be for 190, and over time you'll get there. you should target either one meal or one of your weak food points every 3-4 weeks to change. That gives you enough time to have adjusted to the last change and have it feel like a normal part of life.

here is some referential stuff to think about, or pick up this book. They have it and some of the variations on it at Sams Club even

I feel like I've posted this a thousand times but here it goes again



So do you eat the muffin normally and then eat a ton of other stuff as well? or do you eat 1/3 of the pile of fruit and save the rest for later?

Do you have the tart for 440 cals or just one bowl of the raspberries for 55 cals?

Do you end up eating all the things on the left side, instead of the meal on teh right side that ends up being 1/3 the calories?


This is from Dr Randy Shapiro's Picture Perfect Weight Loss

http://pictureperfectweightloss.com/

You can eat well, and eat enjoyably and still be getting leaner. Any idea how much fruit I used to eat when I was 245? I think i'd have oj with my vodka and that was about it. Maybe some gfj the occasional weekend with breakfast at cracker barrell. Now I eat 1-2 whole pineapples a week, a handful of apples, go thru a gallon of GFJ, oranges, tangerines, etc.... And I enjoy sitting and eating half a pound of pineapple way more than a 2oz bag of cheetos

 

[elementrip]

Awesome, thank you for your time...I know it may be nothing..

but for some, like myself...advice like this is more than golden.

I'm no expert but if i can help im going to. So any questions you have ask away i know Easy knows his stuff too, he's helped me quite a bit.

 

[Tuffshift]

Wow, a lot of effort...and explanation. I have the eat healthy and smart idea simular to urs....I'm on my G1, so ill post later, but thanks 4 the info, and 2 all others aswell.

Mozilla/5.0 (Linux; U; Android 1.1; en-us; dream) AppleWebKit/525.10+ (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/3.0.4 Mobile Safari/523.12.2

 

[elementrip]

You can eat well, and eat enjoyably and still be getting leaner. Any idea how much fruit I used to eat when I was 245? I think i'd have oj with my vodka and that was about it. Maybe some gfj the occasional weekend with breakfast at cracker barrell. Now I eat 1-2 whole pineapples a week, a handful of apples, go thru a gallon of GFJ, oranges, tangerines, etc.... And I enjoy sitting and eating half a pound of pineapple way more than a 2oz bag of cheetos

Well said, I remember eating whole pizzas, or like 2 chipotle burritos in one sitting. It's filling but after your done how satisfied are you really? You can become full off of much cleaner, simpler, and equally tasty things. So far my absolute favorite meal is one i made when learning to cook on a cut. As my cheat meal this is unequaled in taste IMO...
Grilled chicken breast with pineapple chunks with a light amount of maraschino cherry sauce over it. (about 8 oz chicken, and pineapple depends on preference)

 

[blakkbwoy]

Right now im about 245 Lbs, 5'11", approx 27% BF...

Im nailing my diet down to low carbs, and small meals/snacks every 2 hours.

Im going to start taking clen, and was told about steroids being of some assistance (something about "Test 300")

Anyhoo..Is Diet/Cardio Best for me to loose weight fast/in a healthy manner?

Or would Steroids assist is Pure Fat loss? Im looking to shed about 45 lbs(Get back to me '05 weight), and do it in a fast, but healthy manner. I know I wouldnt loose too much weight number wise with steroids, but looking to shed all my fat...

Biggest thing is I dont want to worry about "Monster Muscles"...I want to be toned, but not insane...my main focus is getting some noticable muscle on my arms, loosing all my gut and manboobs..and look overall healthy but avoiding the "BodyBuilder" Figure..I guess what im trying to say Is i dont want to look insanely large.

How long have you been at it? You may have just plateaued. 27% bf is a bit high for a plateau in a male thought. Try going ZERO card for a couple days(eggs/tuna) and see if that doesnt bump your wait down some. Also remember ketosis is process that requires a fair amount of water, so if you arent drinking enough then you arent going to any loses

 

[Tuffshift]

How long have you been at it? You may have just plateaued. 27% bf is a bit high for a plateau in a male thought. Try going ZERO card for a couple days(eggs/tuna) and see if that doesnt bump your wait down some. Also remember ketosis is process that requires a fair amount of water, so if you arent drinking enough then you arent going to any loses

Not long, or even strict about it..taking baby steps into, but think ive figured it out to be very consistant now...

Just havnt a clue about a meal plan...

IE, today..4 egg whites, 1 egg yolk...for breakfest....2 hours later had a nutrigrain bar, 2 hours after that 1 piece of grilled chicken, 2 hours after that, another piece of chicken, 2 hours after that a nutrigrain bar...then sadly 2 hours after that had some baked(grilled) chicken, some white rice(I know), and 4-5 pieces of battered shrimp(i know I know, but like i said....)Havnt a clue on how to realistcally make a diet plan...

I know the math..but dont know what to eat really...

 

[clumsy]

keep carbs for breakfast , post and pre workout
clen is bad for ur heart .. go with EC or something

 

[EasyEJL]

keep carbs for breakfast , post and pre workout
clen is bad for ur heart .. go with EC or something

Gee then why have they used it for heart surgery patients?

 

[elementrip]

Gee then why have they used it for heart surgery patients?

My thoughts exactly. Clen has alot of research behind it, please read up a bit before telling others your misinformed opinion. It's appreciated that you're trying to help dont get me wrong, im not trying to be a ****. But he is looking for valid info to help him make a decision. Your carb idea is good though, I'd suggest getting your hands on some waxy maize and a little quicker carbs like malto/dextrose for your post workout shake

 

[Tuffshift]

My thoughts exactly. Clen has alot of research behind it, please read up a bit before telling others your misinformed opinion. It's appreciated that you're trying to help dont get me wrong, im not trying to be a ****. But he is looking for valid info to help him make a decision. Your carb idea is good though, I'd suggest getting your hands on some waxy maize and a little quicker carbs like malto/dextrose for your post workout shake

I dont mean to be like "hey, im lazy help me", but anyone willing to make a 'Example' day of what someone in my position, weighing what i do, and wanting to loose as much as i do within a few short month can expect to eat daily to achieve it? Just looking for an example day or two...

I have my day off tommarow..here finishing up a UFC party, so ill do some HW tommarow and post what I think I should be doing, but just want a solid idea first off...

 

[elementrip]

I dont mean to be like "hey, im lazy help me", but anyone willing to make a 'Example' day of what someone in my position, weighing what i do, and wanting to loose as much as i do within a few short month can expect to eat daily to achieve it? Just looking for an example day or two...

I have my day off tommarow..here finishing up a UFC party, so ill do some HW tommarow and post what I think I should be doing, but just want a solid idea first off...

Myself currently, I'm 6'2 235 and about 13.5%bf and am trying to cut up a bit. My current daily outline is this: (keep in mind portions should be augmented slightly and schedule may conflict with your life...)

I wake up at 6 and go to the gym for 45 mins of my dry cardio, just a little cold water at this point. Maybe a thermo if i feel up for it.

I consume a small shake and large amount of fast acting carbs post workout. about 25g protein and 60-70 of maltodextrin based carb powder.

Then my breakfast is 4 egg whites and one whole egg omlette with onion and peppers.

Meal2- Tuna salad (6 oz)with EVOO
Meal3-6 oz Chicken and 1/2 cup brown rice
Meal4- 1 boiled yam, and and 6 oz steak w/ broccoli
Meal5- 6 oz Chicken and 1/2 cup brown rice
Meal6- Postworkout Shake with 55g protein and 75g malto again
Meal7- 1 tablespoon peanut butter and 4 oz chicken with a TINY amount of bbq sauce.

Snacking on almonds if hungry throughout the day.

And i finish up the day just before meal 7 with 45 min-1hr of cardio. followed by the shake i mentioned earlier minus quite so many carbs. I limit this shake considerably about 25g protein and 20g carbs.

Supps:
2g CLA
1g ALA
3g EFA
50mg EOD of ATD
3g vit-c
8 pills DCP
2g l-carnitine
1-2g l-arginine
Multi's of course

and about 2 gallons of water daily

 

[EasyEJL]

I dont mean to be like "hey, im lazy help me", but anyone willing to make a 'Example' day of what someone in my position, weighing what i do, and wanting to loose as much as i do within a few short month can expect to eat daily to achieve it? Just looking for an example day or two...

I have my day off tommarow..here finishing up a UFC party, so ill do some HW tommarow and post what I think I should be doing, but just want a solid idea first off...

I'll meet you in the middle give us what you currently eat and together we'll make modifications

 

[Enigma76]

My thoughts exactly. Clen has alot of research behind it, please read up a bit before telling others your misinformed opinion. It's appreciated that you're trying to help dont get me wrong, im not trying to be a ****. But he is looking for valid info to help him make a decision. Your carb idea is good though, I'd suggest getting your hands on some waxy maize and a little quicker carbs like malto/dextrose for your post workout shake

His opinion might be misinformed, but it isn't wrong necessarily.

He is probably referring to this study.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1831534

Which shows a dose-dependent cardiac myocyte apoptosis at low doses and necrosis at higher doses (although these higher doses are much higher than anything you or I could take). This is in normal rat hearts. You also must remember that clen acts VERY differently in rats than in humans, it actually is an anabolic substance in animals that causes pretty pronounced hypertrophy.

Clen is used in animal models of heart failure and in small human trials in patients with severe heart failure who are on LVADs (left ventricular assist devices). These patients are at the very end-point of their lives without a heart transplant. Clen does improve these people's outcomes, because it increases contractility and calcium sensitivity among other things. The following is a small patient study done on clen in patients with LVADs. For reference, the N is only 15, so the results must be taken with a grain of salt.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/355/18/1873?ijkey=d145a170c5f666549f0cae92671a6a2fe3f9e4c7&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha


However we must remember that these studies are using hearts that have failed to the point of requiring mechanical support to maintain systolic function compatible with life. These hearts have undergone a pathological process that has resulted in their inability to perform as normal. In a normal heart, clen has not been studied to any degree in humans (as far as I can tell, I could be wrong here though), and might indeed produce cardiac myocyte necrosis and apoptosis as the first study referenced showed.

I'll stick with something else besides clen. You only get one heart, and personally I'm not willing to take that risk.

 

[Enigma76]

So do you eat the muffin normally and then eat a ton of other stuff as well? or do you eat 1/3 of the pile of fruit and save the rest for later?

I was curious here. Where are the calories coming from in the fat-free, sugar-free muffin to add up to 720 total?

 

[EasyEJL]

I was curious here. Where are the calories coming from in the fat-free, sugar-free muffin to add up to 720 total?

I have wondered that same thing myself

9oz is 252g, so there is enough weight there for it to be possible - for it to be say 5g protein and 175g of assorted non-sugar carbohydrates. But seems a little stretched i'll admit. Could have just said "1 bakery banana nut muffin" and would have been easier

 

[elementrip]

His opinion might be misinformed, but it isn't wrong necessarily.

He is probably referring to this study.
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1831534

Which shows a dose-dependent cardiac myocyte apoptosis at low doses and necrosis at higher doses (although these higher doses are much higher than anything you or I could take). This is in normal rat hearts. You also must remember that clen acts VERY differently in rats than in humans, it actually is an anabolic substance in animals that causes pretty pronounced hypertrophy.

Clen is used in animal models of heart failure and in small human trials in patients with severe heart failure who are on LVADs (left ventricular assist devices). These patients are at the very end-point of their lives without a heart transplant. Clen does improve these people's outcomes, because it increases contractility and calcium sensitivity among other things. The following is a small patient study done on clen in patients with LVADs. For reference, the N is only 15, so the results must be taken with a grain of salt.

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/355/18/1873?ijkey=d145a170c5f666549f0cae92671a6a2fe3f9e4c7&keytype2=tf_ipsecsha


However we must remember that these studies are using hearts that have failed to the point of requiring mechanical support to maintain systolic function compatible with life. These hearts have undergone a pathological process that has resulted in their inability to perform as normal. In a normal heart, clen has not been studied to any degree in humans (as far as I can tell, I could be wrong here though), and might indeed produce cardiac myocyte necrosis and apoptosis as the first study referenced showed.

I'll stick with something else besides clen. You only get one heart, and personally I'm not willing to take that risk.

Well put and i respect being corrected with hard evidence but as you stated many times people fail to notice the lack of correlation due to rat V. human based data. Same with equine based as these were most of the early data. and they were using amounts that were proportionally about (for someone my size) two to three times the MAXIMUM safe amount. Personally i couldnt bare the idea of beta two receptor downregulation to that degree or the testicular androgen receptors and in pulmonary, cardiac and central nervous system beta-adrenergic receptors. If you're going to take clen there are ALOT of procedures needed to ensure you dont mess yourself up on a permanent scale.

It's scary how frequently its advised by friends or gym rats as the miracle behind fat loss.

 

[EasyEJL]

Well put and i respect being corrected with hard evidence but as you stated many times people fail to notice the lack of correlation due to rat V. human based data. Same with equine based as these were most of the early data. and they were using amounts that were proportionally about (for someone my size) two to three times the MAXIMUM safe amount. Personally i couldnt bare the idea of beta two receptor downregulation to that degree or the testicular androgen receptors and in pulmonary, cardiac and central nervous system beta-adrenergic receptors. If you're going to take clen there are ALOT of procedures needed to ensure you dont mess yourself up on a permanent scale.

It's scary how frequently its advised by friends or gym rats as the miracle behind fat loss.

Hysteria about its safety tho isn't necessarily right either. Its used in studies and in countries outside the US as an asthma medication... Its not ideal for fat loss as its made out to be anyhow.

The protective effect of clenbuterol on exercise-induced asthma was studied in 14 patients with aspecific bronchial hyperreactivity. The selectivity of clenbuterol for 2-receptors was also studied. Patients were selected according to spirometric criteria: reduced dynamic indexes of respiratory function after exercise and, particularly, forced expiratory volume at 1 s (FEV1) decreased by at least 20% compared with initial values. A polycardiographic study was simultaneously carried out for the evaluation of systolic time intervals and polycardiographic indexes (Weissler index, Blumberger index and QT/QS2 index). After the preliminary measurements (CI), oral clenbuterol was started (0.02 mg × 2/day) and measurements were repeated after 30 (CII) and 60 days (CIII) of therapy. During treatment, physical exercise did not significantly influence the indexes of respiratory function (FEV1 decreased by 4.7 ± 5.8 and 9.8 ± 10.5% in CII and CIII with respect to initial values). Similarly systolic time intervals and polycardiographic indexes did not change significantly with respect to the initial values. A small increase in heart rate at rest was observed in CII (+7%, p < 0.05): however, no significant changes were recorded in CIII compared with the initial values. Clenbuterol thus seems to offer an effective protection against exercise-induced asthma without the negative effects on the cardiovascular system which may arise from activation of 1-adrenergic receptors.

Copyright © 1987 S. Karger AG, Basel

 

[Enigma76]

Well put and i respect being corrected with hard evidence but as you stated many times people fail to notice the lack of correlation due to rat V. human based data. Same with equine based as these were most of the early data. and they were using amounts that were proportionally about (for someone my size) two to three times the MAXIMUM safe amount. Personally i couldnt bare the idea of beta two receptor downregulation to that degree or the testicular androgen receptors and in pulmonary, cardiac and central nervous system beta-adrenergic receptors. If you're going to take clen there are ALOT of procedures needed to ensure you dont mess yourself up on a permanent scale.

It's scary how frequently its advised by friends or gym rats as the miracle behind fat loss.

Well put. Its more the bro-telligence that I was trying to get scientific about, which is what you refer to in your last sentence (not saying what I responded to you about was bro-telligence). I used clen quite a bit in the past before I educated myself, and wish I had done a better job of it beforehand.

 

[Enigma76]

Hysteria about its safety tho isn't necessarily right either. Its used in studies and in countries outside the US as an asthma medication... Its not ideal for fat loss as its made out to be anyhow.

Very true about the use as an asthma medication. Then again, we use only albuterol now for rescue inhalers because of its shorter half life and equal efficacy.

You're right about its safety though. I guess alittle devil's advocate very now and then makes for a lively discussion :fing02:

 

[EasyEJL]

Yeah, I still wayyyyyyy recommend against the OP using it

Even usnic acid and DNP potentially have their place, even if someone did die just last year from DNP overdose. because you can die from tylenol overdose, alchohol overdose, etc..... So its about reasonable usage, not necessarily the substance

 

[Enigma76]

Yeah, I still wayyyyyyy recommend against the OP using it

Even usnic acid and DNP potentially have their place, even if someone did die just last year from DNP overdose. because you can die from tylenol overdose, alchohol overdose, etc..... So its about reasonable usage, not necessarily the substance

Very true about DNP, I've always been curious about how I would do with it but never could justify the risks.

Just FYI, tylenol overdose is the leading cause of acute liver failure in this country. Over 500 deaths occur per year, and probably over 50,000 cases reach the ER (of those reported). Of course the number of people that use tylenol is in the millions, but still.

Hell, you can even OD on drinking too much water (I think its something like 11 or 13 gallons in the span of a couple hours).

 

[EasyEJL]

In boston, you could run DNP during the winter, and survive it Lets just say that at 400mg a day you would likely be walking around in shorts + tshirts in november...