Another fat guy starting a CDK diet thread!

[dbsb]

Alright. I've always been in good shape but recently due to living with my girlfriend and her cooking, lack of will power, alcohol and my 5th year at a desk job I've ballooned up.

At 200-215 I remember being in decent shape, sadly I'm about 260 now. So I will post what I can about what I'm doing and gladly take what you guys have to say into action. I'm sick of being fat basically.

So I joined here yesterday and found plenty of answers and knowledgeable people pointing in a direction I figured I should follow.

So Here we go.

Here is a rather typical day before i started to give you an example of why im fat, I've been keeping a fitday for ages.

Horrible I know. So I am getting a bit serious now.

 

[Fat Ass 101]

Alright. I've always been in good shape but recently due to living with my girlfriend and her cooking, lack of will power, alcohol and my 5th year at a desk job I've ballooned up.

At 200-215 I remember being in decent shape, sadly I'm about 260 now. So I will post what I can about what I'm doing and gladly take what you guys have to say into action. I'm sick of being fat basically.

So I joined here yesterday and found plenty of answers and knowledgeable people pointing in a direction I figured I should follow.

So Here we go.

Best of luck to you as well. Let me know what you find that works for you and I will do the same.

Cheers,

 

[dbsb]

258lbs and 40" waist

Here is 1/20/09

a little light but honestly without booze of junk food I wasn't sure what else to eat.

as it turns out even my beloved Muscle milk is too high in carbs

I ran for 30 mins, and lifted tri's and chest.

 

[rampage jackson]

I'll post back with links tonight, but you really gotta find Lyle Mcdonald's writings on CKD diets man.

 

[dbsb]

I'll post back with links tonight, but you really gotta find Lyle Mcdonald's writings on CKD diets man.

Yeah any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm obviously new to this and I'm posting here for help/advice.

 

[BodyWizard]

Skip the alcohol & you're half-way there.
Eight beers? And 3 double vodkas???

You want a CKD?
Read Lyle McDonald's "The Ketogenic Diet"

Eat:
Tuna, beef, chicken, fish, lamb, bacon, barbecue, cheese, peanut butter, whey.
Broccoli, spinach, squash, turnip greens, beans.

ELIMINATE sugar (including fruit & high-fructose stuff), all breads, and searches like corn and potatoes; For the first few days, emphasise fat calories - it'll help you get into ketosis faster; once you're in, back off the fat & replace those cals w/ protein.

KEEP ALL OTHER CALORIES (besides protein & fat) UNDER 30g/day or you run the risk of being bounced out of ketosis.

Most 'prepared' food has sugar in it (sometimes you'll find 4 or 5 different kinds), so watch out!

1g fat = 9 cals
1g CHO = 4 cals
1g pro = 4 cals

If you know your BMR, then you know the cals required to keep your current weight - back off of that 10-20%, and walk a mile a day.

That'll get you started, but if all that is greek to you, hire a trainer for at least one session, get a meal plan from him.

 

[dbsb]

Skip the alcohol & you're half-way there.
Eight beers? And 3 double vodkas???

You want a CKD?
Read Lyle McDonald's "The Ketogenic Diet"

Eat:
Tuna, beef, chicken, fish, lamb, bacon, barbecue, cheese, peanut butter, whey.
Broccoli, spinach, squash, turnip greens, beans.

ELIMINATE sugar (including fruit & high-fructose stuff), all breads, and searches like corn and potatoes; For the first few days, emphasise fat calories - it'll help you get into ketosis faster; once you're in, back off the fat & replace those cals w/ protein.

KEEP ALL OTHER CALORIES (besides protein & fat) UNDER 30g/day or you run the risk of being bounced out of ketosis.

Most 'prepared' food has sugar in it (sometimes you'll find 4 or 5 different kinds), so watch out!

1g fat = 9 cals
1g CHO = 4 cals
1g pro = 4 cals

If you know your BMR, then you know the cals required to keep your current weight - back off of that 10-20%, and walk a mile a day.

That'll get you started, but if all that is greek to you, hire a trainer for at least one session, get a meal plan from him.

I posted that as an example of what I have been eating, the next one down is my current diet.

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[shaw001]

BUMP for bodywizard...

that sounds bang on for what you should do to start, ease yourself in. when youre ready up your cardio. i reccomend mixing the cardio up to save yourself from boredom. also make goals for yourself. I box and at my club we have a different days for men, women and people who just wanna lose weight and get fitter. I suggest you see if there is a local club you could join for one evening a night, its enjoyable to learn a skill and you will lose fat at the same time

 

[dbsb]

BUMP for bodywizard...

that sounds bang on for what you should do to start, ease yourself in. when youre ready up your cardio. i reccomend mixing the cardio up to save yourself from boredom. also make goals for yourself. I box and at my club we have a different days for men, women and people who just wanna lose weight and get fitter. I suggest you see if there is a local club you could join for one evening a night, its enjoyable to learn a skill and you will lose fat at the same time

I actually have some co-workers who have been bugging me to join them for ages in their boxing classes... good call. I should get off my ass and give it a try.

Thanks!

 

[shaw001]

Glad i could offer some advice. ECA and Boxing= one hell of a fat burner!

 

[dbsb]

Glad i could offer some advice. ECA and Boxing= one hell of a fat burner!

Oh yeah I've been on ECa'S for a while.

 

[rampage jackson]

Oh yeah I've been on ECa'S for a while.

Honestly bro, you should stay away from fat-burners at this point. You really need to get the diet in check. Save the extra help for when you plateau, and can't seem to lose anymore.

Listen to the Wiz on his advice. This guy really knows his stuff, and has helped (whether he knows it or not) shape my views on fitness.

Also, do a forum search for "Anabolic Diet". Somewhere buried in a thread is the entire pdf for the diet. It's very similar to Lyle's CKD diets. I can't post a link, but there is a lot of good CKD info out there. Do google searches for "Body Opus", and "CKD Diet". There is a wealth of info out there, but you're gonna have to look, since most of it is probably not safe to post on here (legally).

 

[dbsb]

Here is the 21st again.


So no ECA? Damn I do love my ephedra... as hard as it is for me, I'll listen to you. Thanks and take care.


also this day I did a nice shoulder workout and about 20 mins of running... I'm getting tired from this already.


I should state that I fasted the day before I started this.

 

[dbsb]

Also I've been reading everything i can find by Lyle McDonald.

 

[CROWLER]

Subed. Keep up the good work!

 

[dbsb]

I did legs today.... walking like i spend the night in prison.


I'm also at 256lbs so far. I'm sure this 1 pound a day stuff wont go on for much longer, but its encouraging.









Also I'm going shopping tomorrow as I've eaten a normal months worth of eggs in the past three days.
If i can keep this up it's going to be amazing for the wallet. No booze or pre-made food... thats damn near 100 a day for me. .

 

[MauiGrown]

IMO, calories look really LOW to start with. Considering you are in the 250s I would suggest slowly ramping up calories to get your metabolism running hot and then start cutting calories. If your metabolism is running slow at the start, you will find that as you get deeper and deeper into the diet your body will start to work against you and it will be very difficult to drop bodyfat. hope this helps.

 

[dbsb]

IMO, calories look really LOW to start with. Considering you are in the 250s I would suggest slowly ramping up calories to get your metabolism running hot and then start cutting calories. If your metabolism is running slow at the start, you will find that as you get deeper and deeper into the diet your body will start to work against you and it will be very difficult to drop bodyfat. hope this helps.

I agree completely, I've just been at a loss as to what else to eat. I've also been concerned about my lack of protein. I'm shooting for about 200 g's a day, but only been able to hit the 130/140 range. Due to work I only have time for shakes (muscle milk so far) and after work I've been eating eggs and tuna or whatever I have the rest of the evening... I'm stuffed and I'm only hitting 1400 cals.


I'll try making eggs and food at night and bring it to work and eating throughout the day.

I've also been searching the forums for decent food ideas, there are some good ones out there I just need to go shopping.

 

[shaw001]

mix up the cardio to save boredom and have goals incorporated to challenge you. as Arnie said, have goals which you tell everyone about, so you have no choice but to man up and reach them.. or fail and look like a loser!

heres some ideas to use on diff days:

skipping: 1min on, 2mins off... 20 mins

rowing: 1000metres, as fast as you can, rest for double the time it took you to complete 1000metres. repeat 3x
record your rowing times and aim to beat them on row day next week.

cross trainer: 20 mins hiit... 1min fast at high level, 2 mins slower at lighter level, repeat for 20 mins. record distance after 20 mins. aim to beat it each week.

these simple goals of beating distance, or time taken to complete a set distance will keep you striving to improve. we all need something to aim at.

do a different form of cardio each day for a week and let me know what you think!

i promise you wont be dissapointed with this mate! The intensity will hurt but thats why you have the two mins lighter time for resting! good luck and I wanna hear feedback from you!

 

[dbsb]

mix up the cardio to save boredom and have goals incorporated to challenge you. as Arnie said, have goals which you tell everyone about, so you have no choice but to man up and reach them.. or fail and look like a loser!

heres some ideas to use on diff days:

skipping: 1min on, 2mins off... 20 mins

rowing: 1000metres, as fast as you can, rest for double the time it took you to complete 1000metres. repeat 3x
record your rowing times and aim to beat them on row day next week.

cross trainer: 20 mins hiit... 1min fast at high level, 2 mins slower at lighter level, repeat for 20 mins. record distance after 20 mins. aim to beat it each week.

these simple goals of beating distance, or time taken to complete a set distance will keep you striving to improve. we all need something to aim at.

do a different form of cardio each day for a week and let me know what you think!

i promise you wont be dissapointed with this mate! The intensity will hurt but thats why you have the two mins lighter time for resting! good luck and I wanna hear feedback from you!

I think I might start swimming today. I've always been a runner but all the swimmers seem to stay in better shape even at an older age.

After lifting legs yesterday I won't be able to run today/tomorrow. I can barely make it up stairs right now...

But I'll row today too, I'll post time/distance with my diet post tonight.

.

 

[shaw001]

But I'll row today too, I'll post time/distance with my diet post tonight.

I want regular updates on times... no cheating! it will hurt like hell! rowing blows me out big time.....
good luck!

 

[dbsb]

But I'll row today too, I'll post time/distance with my diet post tonight.

I want regular updates on times... no cheating! it will hurt like hell! rowing blows me out big time.....
good luck!

Hhaha alright. I like the pressure thanks for the encouragement. Yeah from what I remember, rows like this did back like nothing else.

 

[dbsb]

Also for comparison reasons. Here is me at 260, shortly after 10 days at an all inclusive mexico resort Soaked in booze. This is the reason I've decided to change.

and here is me at 215, all of a sad few 9 months ago...

So I've got a goal. and I'm not used to being the FAT GUY.

Hope this helps

I'll do my best to post weekly pix or so. that fist pick is a good one to keep around and remind myself why I'm not drinking with friends and eating crap anymore.

.

 

[MauiGrown]

I'm in CAPS

I agree completely, I've just been at a loss as to what else to eat. I've also been concerned about my lack of protein. I'm shooting for about 200 g's a day, but only been able to hit the 130/140 range. Due to work I only have time for shakes (muscle milk so far) and after work I've been eating eggs and tuna or whatever I have the rest of the evening... I'm stuffed and I'm only hitting 1400 cals.

YOU CAN EAT LEAN RED MEAT, TILAPIA, ORANGE ROUGHY, TURKEY ETC.. I UNDERSTAND YOU ARE STUFFED EATING ONLY 1400 KCAL, HOWEVER ONCE YOU ARE ON A REGULAR EATING SCHEDULE YOU WILL FIND THAT 1400 KCAL IS NOT NEARLY ENOUGH FOR YOU.

I'll try making eggs and food at night and bring it to work and eating throughout the day.

FOOD PREPARATION IS HALF THE BATTLE. THIS IS WHERE MOST PEOPLE FAIL.

I've also been searching the forums for decent food ideas, there are some good ones out there I just need to go shopping.

KEEP YOUR EYE ON THE PRIZE BRO AND I'M SURE YOU WILL REACH IT! GOOD LUCK!

 

[dbsb]

But I'll row today too, I'll post time/distance with my diet post tonight.

I want regular updates on times... no cheating! it will hurt like hell! rowing blows me out big time.....
good luck!

Alright I just got back form the gym,
Rowing, highest setting.
2 mins, 550 meters. Felt fine after this one.
walk for about 5 mins and did some wood cutter @ 90lbs

2 mins, 510 meters. At this point my legs are killing me from yesterdays lifting.
Same walking/woodcutter/different ab

2 mins, 500 meters. I barely finished this one. sad I know.
walking but at this point my legs aren't working like they should. I guess that means I did something right.


so thats my pathetic first try at rowing in ages. I'm thinking my goal for next week here will to at least get 5 sets of 2 mins in. what do you think?



One more thing, I'm 255 now. I don't think I've ever lost a pound a day for 5 days before... is this going to end badly? Or is this just the begging stage where the more you have to lose the faster you lose it?


,

 

[dbsb]

a quick question.

On the 30th It's my girlfriends birthday. a bunch of us are going to a strip club and hitting the downtown area.

at this point I will be 10 days in. So I'll be up for a carb load, Is beer alright? I'm not talking about over doing it but a few beers would make the whole thing a little more fun.

If it's a bad idea I'll restrain myself. But it would be a nice treat.

So beer for the card load day?


.

 

[ThomasRivera]

Beer isn't the best idea on any diet in general, but if your going to drink i would do it towards the end of the carb load day as you shift back into ketosis. Alcohol actually will illicit a ketogenic response, too much alcohol will inhibit fat burning though. Just don't go over board and you'll be fine.

 

[dbsb]

Beer isn't the best idea on any diet in general, but if your going to drink i would do it towards the end of the carb load day as you shift back into ketosis. Alcohol actually will illicit a ketogenic response, too much alcohol will inhibit fat burning though. Just don't go over board and you'll be fine.

Yeah she'd kill me if i drank too much on her birthday anyways. Maybe just a beer or two.

I'll see

.

 

[ThomasRivera]

Beer or two would probably be fine.

 

[dbsb]

So far so good. I'm nice and sore from rowing and feeling decent so far. It's amazingly nice to have a little extra meat in your diet after so much egg/tuna. I'll be throwing in chicken and a few other things soon.

Thanks everyone for all the support

 

[AMTorres]

258lbs and 40" waist

as it turns out even my beloved Muscle milk is too high in carbs

Haha, I feel you on that bro, when I started my CKD I had to limit my cookies N' Creme to carb ups only I had an abrupt stop to my CKD, so I drink it now

 

[dbsb]

whhy the abrupt stop?

 

[dbsb]

No exercise. I got called into work and didnt leave until my gym was closed.

 

[dbsb]

Workout this morning.

Bi dumbbell curls,
55x10
50x10
45x10
decline Bi dumbbell
50x8
45x8
45x8
hammer dumbbell curls
40x10
40x10
40x10

Then 20 mins 2.1 miles treadmill.

then 2 mins rowing. 55o meters

 

[AMTorres]

whhy the abrupt stop?

I'm a Marine in Iraq, and went from a base that has good food, to a base that feeds us nothing but food packed with carbs, so it is impossible to do the CKD at this base. Maybe if they send me back to a base that is civilized I can do it again, if not, I will have to wait until a month or two after I get back to San Diego. I'm just going to continue lifting heavy and running. Oh and btw, we have to crap in bags here! SUCKS!

 

[dbsb]

I read your thread after i posted. sorry to hear. althought SD isn't a bad place to head back to.

 

[dbsb]

Feeling good. The first weekend in ages I havn't drank.

 

[rampage jackson]

Oh and btw, we have to crap in bags here! SUCKS!

You should be used to crap in bags in SD! :toofunny:

 

[dbsb]

So today I weighed in at just under 254, so I'm still at nearly a pound a day.

lunch break workout.

flat dumbbell press.
90'sx8
90'sx8
95'sx8

decline dumbbell fly's, on an ab ball.
50'sx10
50'sx10

Cable fly's
120x8
120x8
120x6

scull crushers.
115x10
135x4 (I was trying to move up from my normal weight... It wasn't happening)
115x10

Single hand cable pull downs, Full tri extension.
120x20 (10 Per hand)
120x20 (10 Per hand)
120x20 (10 Per hand)


So as far as weights go I haven't changed this week. But I'm down 6 pounds for the last 6 days. Tomorrow will be my 7 day mark and I'll try and snap a comparison picture.

Also Friday is my girlfriends bday so I will carb load then (10 days in). A few beers (3 at most) and some pizza? I'm trying to be realistic. This won't be a day I will have complete control over what I eat. So suggestions as to restaurant foods would be great.

 

[dbsb]

The muscle milk is before and after workouts. Only when I know I'm going to have a hard workout.

 

[dbsb]

also i finally got ketostrix. I'm one the second to darkest level. good little tools

 

[BodyWizard]

Feeling good. The first weekend in ages I havn't drank.

Good for you, Bud!

What period of time was that food taken in? 7 eggs, 3/4# steak & ~2oz of sausage? That's more cals that I target for a whole day (been planning a cut, so I'm fresh on this).

Again, well-done, and good luck!

 

[dbsb]

Good for you, Bud!

What period of time was that food taken in? 7 eggs, 3/4# steak & ~2oz of sausage? That's more cals that I target for a whole day (been planning a cut, so I'm fresh on this).

Again, well-done, and good luck!

Wow really? I have been trying not to go too far below maintenance. My schedule doesnt allow me to really eat until after work (5pm) unless i skip my lunch time workout.

basically
wake up at 8:45, run to work barely making a 9am meeting.
muscle milk right before meeting. It's all stored in my break room.

then lunch I lift 11:30-12:30
muscle milk.

off work at 5
run home and eggs/meat at 5:20ish

maybe cardio if I'm lucky. Mostly house crap. Car crap. guitar crap. watching my roomates drink until they are retarded and I attempt to stop them from breaking stuff.

Then another egg/meat combo around 7-8ish.

Go to sleep aroun midnight and start all over again.

Should I go lower on Calories? I have been forcing myself to eat.

.,

 

[AMTorres]

You should be used to crap in bags in SD! :toofunny:

Haha! I'd like to throw alot of their natives in crap bags, where they belong!

 

[dbsb]

Good for you, Bud!

What period of time was that food taken in? 7 eggs, 3/4# steak & ~2oz of sausage? That's more cals that I target for a whole day (been planning a cut, so I'm fresh on this).

Again, well-done, and good luck!

Re reading your post I think you were actually asking about my sunday food. Yeah thats far more spread out. Basically eat. go lift in the AM. eat then go run and do cardio for about 40 mins or so. then eat. do house work and stuff.

every sunday my dad likes to bbq so its always worth the trek over to his place for some tri-tip and ribs. It's kind of a tradition. He was our high school football and track couch for several years so its a big group thing.


with everyone around it's all i can do to just avoid the garlic bread (made with cream cheese and tons of butter, amazing) and beer. So I was just trying to pick at the tri-tip, but he made 5 different kinds so I might have over done it for a sitting.

 

[dbsb]

20 min run. Lunch break so i had to take what I could get.

I'm at 253 today. It doesn't seem real. It's been way too easy.

I am definitely noticing a lack of energy but it doesn't really bother me yet.

I'm almost scared for my carb load. I don't want to take a step backwards.


.

 

[AMTorres]

It's gonna feel wrong when you do your carb load, what kinds of simple and complex carbs do you have lined up? are you going to split them first half and second half?

 

[dbsb]

It's gonna feel wrong when you do your carb load, what kinds of simple and complex carbs do you have lined up? are you going to split them first half and second half?

Honestly any help would be greatly appreciated. I figured I was going to avoid sugars and all fats as well as "man made" products like Cheeto's and the like. Lots of grain breads and some dark beer.

I know the beer isn't a great idea but again this will fall on my girlfriends b-day and I'm not going to have time or resources to completely control my diet.

Also I was only planning on a 24 hour carb up.

Any advice as to what to avoid?

 

[AMTorres]

Lol, yes, biggest thing is HFCS (High Fructose Corn Syrup) When I first started reading up on CKD/Anabolic Diet I saw people drinking like 3-4 liters of soda during their carb-ups, well I did some investigation and come to find out, HFCS is not good for you especially when trying to get carbs to refill glycogen stores! I'm gonna look back to some old threads, there are a few other sugars to avoid but don't want to mislead you so I want to make sure I have my facts straight and then I'll get back to you with the rest of the sugars to avoid.

When I did my CKD, I did first 24 hours simple (sugar) carbs, the next 12-16 hours complex carbs. For simple carbs I would eat things like ice cream, cake/pie, and i would eat sweet tarts and smarties (great source of dextrose a.k.a. good sugar) I would still eat complex carbs on this day due to me not having full resources to control my diet, but would try to limit them.

What are you trying for on your macros? Are you going to go for a certain numbers of carbs, or just going to eat until you are full/bloated? I've heard of both methods working, but it just depends on how your body responds.

BTW, my days are all wacked out right now, can you tell me what date you are doing your carb-up on? Thanks, and I'll get back to you with the info on the sugars

DB, like I said your biggest thing to avoid is HFCS. From what I understand the reason you split your carbs on your carb up is because simple carbs fill up your muscle glycogen stores so your muscles look full again and they have the carbs stored in them for the upcoming low carb week. (That's why they look flat after your low carb week and then you look bloated after your carb up) And your complex carbs restore your liver glycogen which is what kicks you out of ketosis. Pretty sure this is how it works, dunno maybe i'm a little delirious right now because I've been up all night and it's now 6AM. lol.

Also, other than the above listed things to avoid, you can eat literally any carbs you want, for the first 24 hours or so, your body literally has immunity against carbs, your body is still in a fat burning state, and all your carbs are going to your muscles to restore muscle glycogen. Knowing this makes me feel better while I'm on the carb-up.

I'm probably just goin on and on about stuff you already know, but also keep in mind that even though you are expecting weight fluctuations from your carb up, some people's bodies fluctuate to extremes. I've seen people on these boards jump 25lbs on a 2 day carb up. Good luck buddy and sorry if I wasted your time by re-iterating things you already knew. I'll get back to you with the info on the sugars to avoid

 

[dbsb]

Lol, yes, biggest thing is HFCS (High Fructose Corn Syrup) When I first started reading up on CKD/Anabolic Diet I saw people drinking like 3-4 liters of soda during their carb-ups, well I did some investigation and come to find out, HFCS is not good for you especially when trying to get carbs to refill glycogen stores! I'm gonna look back to some old threads, there are a few other sugars to avoid but don't want to mislead you so I want to make sure I have my facts straight and then I'll get back to you with the rest of the sugars to avoid.

When I did my CKD, I did first 24 hours simple (sugar) carbs, the next 12-16 hours complex carbs. For simple carbs I would eat things like ice cream, cake/pie, and i would eat sweet tarts and smarties (great source of dextrose a.k.a. good sugar) I would still eat complex carbs on this day due to me not having full resources to control my diet, but would try to limit them.

What are you trying for on your macros? Are you going to go for a certain numbers of carbs, or just going to eat until you are full/bloated? I've heard of both methods working, but it just depends on how your body responds.

BTW, my days are all wacked out right now, can you tell me what date you are doing your carb-up on? Thanks, and I'll get back to you with the info on the sugars

DB, like I said your biggest thing to avoid is HFCS. From what I understand the reason you split your carbs on your carb up is because simple carbs fill up your muscle glycogen stores so your muscles look full again and they have the carbs stored in them for the upcoming low carb week. (That's why they look flat after your low carb week and then you look bloated after your carb up) And your complex carbs restore your liver glycogen which is what kicks you out of ketosis. Pretty sure this is how it works, dunno maybe i'm a little delirious right now because I've been up all night and it's now 6AM. lol.

Also, other than the above listed things to avoid, you can eat literally any carbs you want, for the first 24 hours or so, your body literally has immunity against carbs, your body is still in a fat burning state, and all your carbs are going to your muscles to restore muscle glycogen. Knowing this makes me feel better while I'm on the carb-up.

I'm probably just goin on and on about stuff you already know, but also keep in mind that even though you are expecting weight fluctuations from your carb up, some people's bodies fluctuate to extremes. I've seen people on these boards jump 25lbs on a 2 day carb up. Good luck buddy and sorry if I wasted your time by re-iterating things you already knew. I'll get back to you with the info on the sugars to avoid

Not at all. feel free to dispense whatever advice you have. someone will learn from it.

I am trying to carb up on friday the 30th. my tenth day of the diet.
yeah hfcs have been somthing ive avoided most of my life. I'm shocked to hear the ice cream cackes and such would be alright.

from what ive read i should shoot for. 10gs of carbs for each kg of weight. so... 1100gs... seems really really high. so i was going for full.
also as little to no fat as possible. and normal amount of protien.

So basically cereals, pizza with no cheese/toppings, beer, sushi, chow mein.

thats my plan for a 24 hour carb load. There is no way i will be able to choke down 5000+ calories but im sure ill eat what i can and feel nuts doing it.