CDK questions...

[JudoJosh]

Looking for just some clarification .. I got my base for the diet from this article CDK - Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

Now just to clear things up... I understand that the requirement is to eat a bunch of fat. I assume this is soupposed to be comprised of unsaturated fats like almonds right? or is all fat acceptable like bacon and mayo?

Also carb load weekends is it be better to eat whole wheat carbs? or is it all just the same and I can eat white carbs too (white bread)? seems like carb load is basically a controlled cheat day of some sort..

And lastly during the week, M-F, does the diet allows for veggies to be eaten so I can get some fiber in the diet? Like green beans and spinach? Or would that affect the ketosis state?...

Thanks for the answers...

*side not*

If anyone has a fitday log (or something similar) of them on the ckd diet would be good and very helpful

also any info on TKD would be awesome too.. this one intrests me too being I fight alot(box, judo, kickbox) and would think I would need carbs to keep my stamina and energy up..

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Looking for just some clarification .. I got my base for the diet from this article CDK - Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

Now just to clear things up... I understand that the requirement is to eat a bunch of fat. I assume this is soupposed to be comprised of unsaturated fats like almonds right? or is all fat acceptable like bacon and mayo?

Also carb load weekends is it be better to eat whole wheat carbs? or is it all just the same and I can eat white carbs too (white bread)? seems like carb load is basically a controlled cheat day of some sort..

And lastly during the week, M-F, does the diet allows for veggies to be eaten so I can get some fiber in the diet? Like green beans and spinach? Or would that affect the ketosis state?...

Thanks for the answers...

1. Some people like to get fats from fattier meats, or cheese. I usually stick to leaner meats, and get the majority of fat from EVOO, almond butter, peanut butter, almonds, peanuts, macadamia nut oil,coconut oil etc. Also Eggs are a good source for fat. Either way, it just comes down to what you prefer. Mix it up if ya want.

2.http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutrition-health/111954-refeed-carb-up.html#post1714778

3. Yes.. You need fiber.

 

[JudoJosh]

so peanutbutter and nuts are good... but still stay away from chocolate and bacon,thanks...I cant eat dairy I get allergic reactions to it but oddly enough I can drink pure whey shakes, so cheese is out of the question.. looks like i will try and stick with peanutbutter, almonds, chicken, turkey and eggs... so Should I not be concerned with trying to eat lean meats, just get the higher fat ones? and with the evoo and other oils how do you gauge what you actually eat cuz I would imagine most of it gets cooked away.

Thanks for the thread I will read up on it looks good!!!!!


how many grams of fiber carbs should be or allowed to be consumed daily?

 

[SilentBob187]

Don't stay away from bacon Josh, just don't have most of your fats coming from bacon.
Sat fats (eggs) are good for you too.

Hey yo, wtf. I'm hoping today is a refeed if I'm seeing cookies in your diet for today...

 

[Frank Reynolds]

As far as oils go, i usually put them in shakes, or just drink em down off a spoon.

Lean VS fatty meats, seems to be more personal preference. It is really up to you.

When/If your cals get low, you may not have room for much fatty meat. That is where i am at now. Plus i tend to feel better eating leaner meats, and getting fats from the sources i listed.. but thats me.. your results may vary.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Hey yo, wtf. I'm hoping today is a refeed if I'm seeing cookies in your diet for today...

lol..werd..

Not to mention id strive for more carbs less fat, right now ur at 40% fat, and only 30% carbs..

 

[JudoJosh]

Don't stay away from bacon Josh, just don't have most of your fats coming from bacon.
Sat fats (eggs) are good for you too.

Hey yo, wtf. I'm hoping today is a refeed if I'm seeing cookies in your diet for today...

lol.. yea my diet has been ass the past 2 weeks.. i didnt even log this past week!... I attribute it to having finals at school and the freakin holiday goodies everywhere talking and tempting me... so i am attempting to get back into the swing of things now just gave in on the cookies this morning..

I am tryna figure this keto diet out so i can start this bad boy.. looks real promising just want to do it right so it is worth it ...

also any info on TKD would be awesome too.. this one intrests me too being I fight alot and would think I would need carbs to keep my stamina and energy up..

thanks guys!!

 

[JudoJosh]

so I just ate lunch and entered my food into fitday I had

4oz Tilapia - cal. 145, fat 3g, carb 0g, prot. 29.7g
84g peanut butter - cal. 494, fat 42.3g, carb 16.4, prot. 21.1

so total for the meal was cal. 639, fat 45.3, carb 16.4, prot. 50.8

Would this be a good keto meal? Should I be concerned with the carbs in the peanut butter? I am not a huge nut fan but I can down peanut butter no problem.. being it has them carbs should I not eat as much of it and find another source of fat or is it fine?

I also noticed eggs have the same deal with the carbs.. so i am guessing that the carbs in meat and fats shouldnt be counted towards the diet goal of no carbs.. just no bread carbs... how about sugar carbs?

 

[AMTorres]

What is the ratio of fat to carbs to protein that you are supposed to have while on the CKD?

 

[ThomasRivera]

What is the ratio of fat to carbs to protein that you are supposed to have while on the CKD?

Depends. Usually people are alright with a

Fat: 60-70%
Protein:40-30%
Carbs: 20-30 grams not counting fiber.

 

[JudoJosh]

Depends. Usually people are alright with a

Fat: 60-70%
Protein:40-30%
Carbs: 20-30 grams not counting fiber.

what about the carbs that are in peanutbutter or eggs?

 

[Kc2554]

I have read Duchaine's Bodyopus, and all of Lyle McDonald's diary. Both are very informative. I have attached the skinny on Dave Polumbo's diet. Reading his take on CKD diet (through the attachment and on his forums) has helped me out quite a bit also.

 

[Kc2554]

what about the carbs that are in peanutbutter or eggs?

They are considered incidental carbs, and they will only add up to and estimate of 45-50 grams a day. You will use those up in weight training anyways.

I have not had a lot of success with a weekend long carb-up....causes to much damage IMO. My body responds better to one dirty cheat meal.

 

[ThomasRivera]

what about the carbs that are in peanutbutter or eggs?

You don't count fiber. Everything else you count. Peanutbutter you count the carbs, eggs have a low carb count. Unless your eating alot of them I honestly just disregard them.

 

[ThomasRivera]

They are considered incidental carbs, and they will only add up to and estimate of 45-50 grams a day. You will use those up in weight training anyways.

I have not had a lot of success with a weekend long carb-up....causes to much damage IMO. My body responds better to one dirty cheat meal.

How so?

 

[Kc2554]

How so?

Not sure exactly why...Posible reasons why:
1. I dont do the pre-carb up work out correctly
2. I consume too many calories overall, and produce too much insulin for too long.

My body type is a bit on the Endo side. The reason "why" is unknown to me. What I can vouch for is this:
1. I tried many weeks (around 5-6) practicing the 48 hour carb-up, and my body retained about the same amount of fat or gained.
2. I have been doing one high carb (dirty) meal a week for two weeks, and I feel like it works better for my body. I feel re-energized, but still am making progress.

 

[ThomasRivera]

The things I don't like about the palumbo diet are that some of the ideologies are flawed.

Suggesting against using MCT's. I don't see why he would do this, here's a link that describes some of the positive uses of MCt's on a ketogenic diet.
http://www.mynchen.demon.co.uk/Ketogenic_diet/Supplements/MCT_oil.html

Low intensity cardio only, why? And who would say that the rule of bodybuilding is low intensity?

HIIT is much more effective and can be done in a much shorter period of time than low intensity cardio and still give better results. Low intensity is for the mass monsters that are on so many meds that it would cause problems for them to do high intensity stuff.

And fat can create carbohydrates. The glycerol portion of a triglyceride molecule can act as a carbohydrate.

Then this

"How about drinking lots of cold water (I think this was even suggested by Elligton Darden) to help lose bodyfat?
Dave Palumbo: RIDICULOUS"

It's ridiculous that he would say that it's ridiculous.
[Only 500 ml water increased energy expenditure by 24% over the course of 60 min after ingestion...]
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17519319?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

500 ml is roughly 1/7th a gallon of water. So drinking said amount would increase metabolism and boost fat burning.

 

[JudoJosh]

should I be eating a sugar free peanut butter or is regular peanut butter ok? I am thinking of getting one of those omega fat jars

also thomas rivera if you can check this out and let me know what you think.. would this be a good day of eating?

 

[Kc2554]

The things I don't like about the palumbo diet are that some of the ideologies are flawed.

Suggesting against using MCT's. I don't see why he would do this, here's a link that describes some of the positive uses of MCt's on a ketogenic diet.
]

Low intensity cardio only, why? And who would say that the rule of bodybuilding is low intensity?

HIIT is much more effective and can be done in a much shorter period of time than low intensity cardio and still give better results. Low intensity is for the mass monsters that are on so many meds that it would cause problems for them to do high intensity stuff.

And fat can create carbohydrates. The glycerol portion of a triglyceride molecule can act as a carbohydrate.

Then this

"How about drinking lots of cold water (I think this was even suggested by Elligton Darden) to help lose bodyfat?
Dave Palumbo: RIDICULOUS"

It's ridiculous that he would say that it's ridiculous.
[Only 500 ml water increased energy expenditure by 24% over the course of 60 min after ingestion...]

500 ml is roughly 1/7th a gallon of water. So drinking said amount would increase metabolism and boost fat burning.

This is the first discussion I have ever had on AM, fun fun:
1. I have used coconut oil, and all it did was make me sick to my stomach. I was literally pulled over during Houston morning traffic puking my guts out. I may have taken in too much.
2. Chris Aceto also recommends HIIT in most of his books, and the trend in the magazines seems to be towards HIIT. I have given all cardio a chance (sprinting, high intensity for a long period of time, low intesnity, HIIT), but I dont have a confirmed opinion on which one is best for me. I believe they all have their place...when one stops working, switch to a different strategy.
3. I didnt know portions of fat can convert to carbohydrates. My assumption though, is that the portion is probably too small to have any affect on insulin levels.

I posted the Palumbo literature only to give the readers a different viewpoint if they wished.

 

[ThomasRivera]

This is the first discussion I have ever had on AM, fun fun:
1. I have used coconut oil, and all it did was make me sick to my stomach. I was literally pulled over during Houston morning traffic puking my guts out. I may have taken in too much.
2. Chris Aceto also recommends HIIT in most of his books, and the trend in the magazines seems to be towards HIIT. I have given all cardio a chance (sprinting, high intensity for a long period of time, low intesnity, HIIT), but I dont have a confirmed opinion on which one is best for me. I believe they all have their place...when one stops working, switch to a different strategy.
3. I didnt know portions of fat can convert to carbohydrates. My assumption though, is that the portion is probably too small to have any affect on insulin levels.

I posted the Palumbo literature only to give the readers a different viewpoint if they wished.

I tried coconut milk, it's not very palatable to be honest. I even put cinnamon and regular milk into it and some strawberry protein mix, it didn't taste good at all.

HIIT, sprint intervals, they are just superior to low intensity cardio in healthy subjects. LI cardio burns fat during the cardio and as the intensity increases it will start to use carb sources for energy. HIIT while it does use primarily a carb source for energy in muscle glycogen I like it on low carb diets and in general for a few reasons.

1. Uses out glycogen in the body during the sprinting intervals. Even in a 15 minute HIIT session, whats the average? 150 seconds of sprinting, about how much you would get in exercise in a set of squats.

2. Increases the efficiency of glycogen storage

3. Raises EPOC, causes hormonal/chemical changes which increases metabolism for hours after the exercise.

4. Has been shown to cause the body to use fats over carbohydrates, which is a positive shift in nutrient partitioning for the body.

According to the work put together by lyle mcdonald in his ketogenic dieting books, the incidence of fat turnover to glucose is up to 2-3 percent and protein up to 52 percent.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Not sure exactly why...Posible reasons why:
1. I dont do the pre-carb up work out correctly
2. I consume too many calories overall, and produce too much insulin for too long.

My body type is a bit on the Endo side. The reason "why" is unknown to me. What I can vouch for is this:
1. I tried many weeks (around 5-6) practicing the 48 hour carb-up, and my body retained about the same amount of fat or gained.
2. I have been doing one high carb (dirty) meal a week for two weeks, and I feel like it works better for my body. I feel re-energized, but still am making progress.

How was fat intake during these 48hr carb ups?

 

[Kc2554]

How was fat intake during these 48hr carb ups?

Not very high....also probably not enough protein either.

 

[ThomasRivera]

should I be eating a sugar free peanut butter or is regular peanut butter ok? I am thinking of getting one of those omega fat jars

also thomas rivera if you can check this out and let me know what you think.. would this be a good day of eating?

Fat and protein look good, check the fiber on the peanuts and almonds, then subtract it and tell me the total. I would try to get in some vegetables too, ones that are high in fiber.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

Not very high....also probably not enough protein either.

How many g of carbs per day, and what were some of the foods you were eating?

 

[Kc2554]

How many g of carbs per day, and what were some of the foods you were eating?

Not sure of the grams...but my sources were pretty dirty...hence why I like just to do one and get back on the wagon

I cant remember what the formula was in BO...but I kept within the limits.

 

[Kc2554]

I tried coconut milk, it's not very palatable to be honest. I even put cinnamon and regular milk into it and some strawberry protein mix, it didn't taste good at all.

HIIT, sprint intervals, they are just superior to low intensity cardio in healthy subjects. LI cardio burns fat during the cardio and as the intensity increases it will start to use carb sources for energy. HIIT while it does use primarily a carb source for energy in muscle glycogen I like it on low carb diets and in general for a few reasons.

1. Uses out glycogen in the body during the sprinting intervals. Even in a 15 minute HIIT session, whats the average? 150 seconds of sprinting, about how much you would get in exercise in a set of squats.

2. Increases the efficiency of glycogen storage

3. Raises EPOC, causes hormonal/chemical changes which increases metabolism for hours after the exercise.

4. Has been shown to cause the body to use fats over carbohydrates, which is a positive shift in nutrient partitioning for the body.

According to the work put together by lyle mcdonald in his ketogenic dieting books, the incidence of fat turnover to glucose is up to 2-3 percent and protein up to 52 percent.

I actually gave a co-worker a birds-eye view of the cardio schools of thought the other day. Here is what I told him:

1. One is high intensity (continuous > 65%) for 30-45 minutes. Theoretically, first 20 minutes uses glycogen, then after its about 50-50 between muscle and fat calories.
2. Second is low intensity (continually for < 120 bpm). Theoretically, this uses more calories from fat, but less calories overall.
3. Third is HIIT, and it is very popular right now. HIIT causes favorable hormonal changes as well as effectively uses calories. User runs in peaks, high to low. I didnt give duration recommendation, as my friend got the point.

I used slow cardio (around 110-117, age 25) last week, and I am looking leaner yet still keeping my fullness.

Thomas and imprezivr6,
What kind of carb-up do ya'll prefer?

 

[ThomasRivera]

Right now i'm running off of a 2 week low carb with a possible mid period carb up of about 100-150 carbs after a workout, with a two day carb load at the end. And the next week is 5 days low carb up and 2 days carb up.

 

[Frank Reynolds]

I consume about 120g post workout(m/w/f), and about 1500-2500 on reffed days(saturday)
Check this thread
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/nutrition-health/111954-refeed-carb-up.html#post1714778

 

[JudoJosh]

Fat and protein look good, check the fiber on the peanuts and almonds, then subtract it and tell me the total. I would try to get in some vegetables too, ones that are high in fiber.

the totals fitday gave me were

/ Grams / Calories / %-Cals
Total Calories 3,276
Fat / 197.8 / 1,716 / 52 %
Saturated /42.6 / 375 / 11 %
Polyunsaturated/ 45.3 / 391 / 12 %
Monounsaturated /94.3/ 813 / 25 %
Carbohydrate /45.8 / 185 / 6 %
Dietary Fiber / 19.1
Protein 338.0 1,374 42 %
Alcohol 0.0 0 0 %

so i guess 45.8 total carbs and I subtract 19.1 dietary fiber and it leaves me with 26.7...sounds good?

 

[ThomasRivera]

26.7 is right smack dab in the middle of good. 20-30 is generally the safest range to play it.

When using fitday or any nutrition site, substitute the caloric information on the nutrition labels that your food has if it has any.

 

[Condition1]

This should be interesting, i'm subbed. Lots of info being passed around here.

 

[JudoJosh]

When using fitday or any nutrition site, substitute the caloric information on the nutrition labels that your food has if it has any.

dont follow???? what am i soupposed to do when entering food info?

 

[ThomasRivera]

dont follow???? what am i soupposed to do when entering food info?

You see how on fitday you can enter custom data?

If you ever have food at your house that has a nutrition label on it, use the nutrition label that the food has, not the information that fitday has.

 

[JudoJosh]

oh ok ... no prob thanks for the tip..

on a side note, started the day out today with some omega 3 eggs!!!

 

[Kc2554]

oh ok ... no prob thanks for the tip..

on a side note, started the day out today with some omega 3 eggs!!!

Same Here! Had 6 on the way to work!

 

[JudoJosh]

okay got another question.. so I downloaded the anabolic diet as it looked most promosing for me and been making changes to my eating habits to get into the flow of it.

I am about halfway though the book (to the cutting phase) and havent noticed anywhere about a workout schedule..

what kind of workouts do I want to be doing to maxamize the results for this diet?

would it be best to follow the workout suggested in this keto diet as they are similar CDK - Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

I am a fan of the scivation workouts.. (hypertrophy workout) would this be ok? .. also looking at those 2 day workout regiments like this one http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/32256-2x-week-routine.html seems good as I am pretty busy with school, work, gym, fighting.., would any of those be ok or should i stick with the workout above in the ckd link??

thanks buds

 

[AMTorres]

I just started my CKD and this is what food i ate today and i wanted to know if it fits around the guidelines for what i should be eating:

2 omelettes- 1-2 eggs, onions, peppers, tomatoes, diced ham
3 cheeseburgers
10 oz prime rib
4 scoops protein powder- 62g protein, 32g carbs
4 hard boiled eggs
handful of nuts

Keep in mind, im controlling my diet to the best of my abilities, but me being in iraq i only have certain foods out here

 

[AMTorres]

Also, on another thread, someone said "you don't count fiber in your carb count and you are encouraged to get your fair share of it." What do you make of this? Does that mean I can have all the carbs i want from fiber? and is this preferred or non-preferred, and how would this effect me while i'm in a state of ketosis?

 

[JudoJosh]

yea I was told you just subtract it... so if you eat say green beans and it says 10g carbs and 7g fiber then you only count 3g carb towards you 30g limit.. (the numbers i made up)

 

[AMTorres]

If you eat enough carbs that don't count because of fiber, would the carbs bring you out of a state of ketosis? and why/how does fiber cancel out carbs?

 

[Kc2554]

If you eat enough carbs that don't count because of fiber, would the carbs bring you out of a state of ketosis? and why/how does fiber cancel out carbs?

The fiber will most likely not bring you out of Ketosis. The fiber moves through the digestive system more or less untouched (absorbing water and easing bathroom visits). The fiber does not provide the body with any (or trace amounts im guessing) glucose, therefore the brain will continue to use Ketones as a fuel source.

The fiber is not canceling out other carbs per se...they just dont count towards your daily allowable 30-40 grams.

 

[SilentBob187]

You're fine with the fiber but my concern in the whey powder as most of the carbs from whey protein are sugars or impact carbs.

Do you have access to psyllium? I heard it grows in Middle Eastern countries so it may be easily accessible. Fiber, good!

 

[ThomasRivera]

okay got another question.. so I downloaded the anabolic diet as it looked most promosing for me and been making changes to my eating habits to get into the flow of it.

I am about halfway though the book (to the cutting phase) and havent noticed anywhere about a workout schedule..

what kind of workouts do I want to be doing to maxamize the results for this diet?

would it be best to follow the workout suggested in this keto diet as they are similar CDK - Cyclical Ketogenic Diet

I am a fan of the scivation workouts.. (hypertrophy workout) would this be ok? .. also looking at those 2 day workout regiments like this one http://anabolicminds.com/forum/exercise-science/32256-2x-week-routine.html seems good as I am pretty busy with school, work, gym, fighting.., would any of those be ok or should i stick with the workout above in the ckd link??

thanks buds

You can stick to what works best for you to be honest. You don't really need to specialize your training any.

 

[ThomasRivera]

The fiber will most likely not bring you out of Ketosis. The fiber moves through the digestive system more or less untouched (absorbing water and easing bathroom visits). The fiber does not provide the body with any (or trace amounts im guessing) glucose, therefore the brain will continue to use Ketones as a fuel source.

The fiber is not canceling out other carbs per se...they just dont count towards your daily allowable 30-40 grams.

Exactly.

Fiber won't bring you out of ketosis, it has a negligible effect on glucose levels.

 

[AMTorres]

You're fine with the fiber but my concern in the whey powder as most of the carbs from whey protein are sugars or impact carbs.

Do you have access to psyllium? I heard it grows in Middle Eastern countries so it may be easily accessible. Fiber, good!

haha, im deployed to iraq, dont live here. I dont think i will be able to get any of that

 

[SilentBob187]

haha, im deployed to iraq, dont live here. I dont think i will be able to get any of that

Maybe find some of it growing on base? It's a weed I think. :thumbsup:

 

[AMTorres]

26.7 is right smack dab in the middle of good. 20-30 is generally the safest range to play it.

When using fitday or any nutrition site, substitute the caloric information on the nutrition labels that your food has if it has any.

So...should i go 12 days low carb and do a smell refeed in between on the 6th or 7th day. Say 100-120 liquid carbs?

And, Gatorade is a good source of post workout carbs, would 40g carbs immediately after every workout take my body out of a state of ketosis? Or what affects would that have on my body?

 

[AMTorres]

Maybe find some of it growing on base? It's a weed I think. :thumbsup:

Haha, i'm about to wikipedia the **** out of it, and then go on a scavenger hunt

 

[Kc2554]

So...should i go 12 days low carb and do a smell refeed in between on the 6th or 7th day. Say 100-120 liquid carbs?

And, Gatorade is a good source of post workout carbs, would 40g carbs immediately after every workout take my body out of a state of ketosis? Or what affects would that have on my body?

No post-workout carbs. They will take you out of Ketosis.

 

[ThomasRivera]

^^^^ Yup, it will stall you out.

That kind of technique is used on a TKD.