Protein + fat post workout (for cutting)

[pinchharmonic]

I've been reading this article over and over and I'm really curious if anyone's tried this yet. It's an article by Mauro Di Pasquale titled Post-Exercise Carbohydrates May Be Counterproductive [i can't post the link]

It stresses taking protein + fat after lifting, as increasing insulin blunts GH and IGF-1 as well as the potential for fat burn if you don't have carbs.

I think a typical PWO shake would have your basic aminos, 40 grams of whey, and 10 grams of fat.

and with this type of PWO, since you don't raise insulin, you won't go into "store" mode, so cardio afterward, whether HIIT or low intensity for longer times would both work nicely.

any thoughts?

 

[LuckyKid57]

I really don't think that is a good idea. I am not some nutritionist or anything, and normally I am up to testing "unorthodox" ideas...but this just seems ridiculous...

1. The primary source of energy is glucose. The body can derive energy from fats, this is obviously true since keto diets do work to a degree. However, the issue is that the nervous system can only work so hard to get enough energy from ketones until it has to convert proteins as well.

2. The transportation of nutrients has been shown to be much more efficient when there is glucose running through the body...after workouts (I'm sure I don't have to tell you this) the body muscle needs to replenish that store.

I see that what you are saying...is protein plus fat in your PWO when CUTTING. I still don't agree, since fats will slow down the digestion of even whey to a certain degree.

I still believe that, when cutting, pre, intra, and post workout carb utilization is the way to go. On serious keto cuts, maybe 20 grams of just post carbs to maintain some gains.

 

[futurepilot]

I like it, I used to consume simple carbs/protein mix after I worked out, but ever since I started having just like a chicken breast, steak or other whole food after working out my muscle quality has gone up. More solid feeling, more defined, less bulky, more dense. So I think there may be some thing too it.

 

[pinchharmonic]

Thanks for all the responses.

The interesting thing is that insulin blunts GH and IGF-1. So it was explained that it's an either or thing. You either jack up insulin with carbs, and you have an anabolic environment with high insulin and super saturated muscles OR, you take protein and fats and the natural rise in GH is uninhibited as well as IGF-1, and your glycogen replenishment is based on what the first responder said, converting fats and proteins to glycogen.

THe writer of the article recommends a particular LOCarb PWO meal replacement that is 10 grams of fat with I think 40 grams of whey AND casein (the product even has fiber!!). So it seems he doesn't really care about the speed of nutrients going in. It was also explained that the recovery process is hours long, so hence the casein and fiber.

For the responder that still uses carbs post workout, how do you fit in your cardio? Is it HIIT or regular low intensity or some other type?

Thanks!

 

[Hank Vangut]

i'm a huge fan of keeping carbs low and comsumming mostly protein + fat both pre and post workout!

 

[rolandajoint]

yo man find a way to post this link. or i can pm you my email if its possible to email it.

 

[Johnnywalts]

I agree with this, I used to carbs/protein mix and always used Fruits after I moved on work out. I also take at least 10-12 glasses of water in a day.

 

[ozarkaBRAND]

Theoretically, you should be able to burn more fat that way. The body has to work harder to digest protein/fat than it does carbohydrates. A mix of protein and fat will increase the already high thermic effect of feeding post-workout.

 

[rolandajoint]

Theoretically, you should be able to burn more fat that way. The body has to work harder to digest protein/fat than it does carbohydrates. A mix of protein and fat will increase the already high thermic effect of feeding post-workout.

:goodpost:

 

[Nitrox]

and with this type of PWO, since you don't raise insulin, you won't go into "store" mode,

Incorrect.

Rate of energy uptake (quantity x rate) is what determines when and how far you go into 'store' mode. Protein, fats, and carbs all provide energy - although at different rates. Per calorie, carbs require more insulin than fat or protein so comparing the degree of anabolism (or fat gain) between different macros on the basis of insulin response is inaccurate.

 

[Nitrox]

Theoretically, you should be able to burn more fat that way. The body has to work harder to digest protein/fat than it does carbohydrates. A mix of protein and fat will increase the already high thermic effect of feeding post-workout.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermic_effect_of_food

Dietary fat is very easy to process and has very little thermic effect, while protein is hard to process and has a much larger thermic effect.

The thermic effect of food is increased by both aerobic training of sufficient duration and intensity and by anaerobic weight training. However, the increase is marginal, amounting to 7-8 cal per hour.1 The primary determinants of daily TEF are the quantity and composition of the food ingested.


AFAIK TEFs are: fats ~ 2-3%, carbs ~ 8-10%, protein ~ 25-30% thus protein+carbs would give a higher overall TEF than protein+fat - if that is what you are after.

 

[Pemmican]

a little bit of fat post workout is a good thing, because, as mentioned above, it (as well as carbs) will help to spike the insulin that carries protein into cells.

Understandably, during a cutting cycle, you dont want too much fat in your diet, however, if you keep it to a minimum, you will be fine. A little bit post workout isnt going to kill you, or your cut. by sacrificing a little fat to spike insulin to carry protein, you are aiding in keeping the muscles from going into a catabolic state, and therefore making it easier to burn fat over the long run.

 

[Jag]

i'm a huge fan of keeping carbs low and comsumming mostly protein + fat both pre and post workout!

Judging from your avatar it hasn't done you any harm!!

Hank, how does the rest of your diet look?

Jag

 

[Hank Vangut]

to summarize his pasquaele's article -

he first highlights a recent study that shows that adding adding carbs post workout did not improve protein synthesis rates over consumming straight protein.

he then goes on to state replenishing glycogen reduces insulin sensitivity (our window of opportunity).
by delaying/prolonging the glycogen replenishment stage, you prolong the window of opportunity allowing your body to synthesize more protein over a longer period.

which all leads to his conclusion that carbs can be detrimental if your goal is maximizing protein synthesis following a workout.

 

[Hank Vangut]

Judging from your avatar it hasn't done you any harm!!

Hank, how does the rest of your diet look?

Jag

i posted a summary of a few days of my diet in the first page (i think) of my current log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/103250-tnt.html

 

[beebab]

I've always been interested by the idea of fat consumption over heavy carb consumption. I played around with a ketogenic diet this past summer for over 2 months and leaned up very nicely. My abs, which previously had never really shown, became fully visible and I also looked a lot dryer. I am a proponent of high fat consumption in a diet.

Even now, after I cycled back in carbs, I consume 250 grams of protein a day, 200 carbs a day and 100 grams of fat per day (about 20 grams per meal). I have not lost my shape - though I have gained some water (probably the mix of eating carbs again and creatine mono). Regardless, I believe fats are crucial and a diet saturated in healthy fats can prove very beneficial to musclebuilding (b/c of effects on hormone production, etc).

Nevertheless, I did notice that I lost a lot of bulky mass after I eliminated the carbs. I got dryer looking, but obviously at the expense of losing size. This was good for cutting, but now that I am trying to bulk again - and on a 6 weeker of Epi and S4 - I am hesitant to rule out carbs.

I guess I just want further clarification of all this - what's the best way to use all three macros to build muscle? As of now I mix Whey protein isolate, 25-30 grams waxy maize, creatine and beta alanine in my PWO shake. Would I be better off eliminating the Waxy Maize?

 

[Jag]

yo man find a way to post this link. or i can pm you my email if its possible to email it.

Copy and Paste the name of the article and the author into google and it will come up first.

Jag

 

[Jag]

i'm a huge fan of keeping carbs low and comsumming mostly protein + fat both pre and post workout!

Hank, I know the pump isn't important to building muscle but it is nice, what sort of pump do you get with this type of eating?

Jag

 

[striking]

Doing just CKD I had pretty poor pumps, the stregth was still there and I felt good but I didn't feel like tearing things apart haha.

Now when I did a more TKD eating then I enjoyed leaning up with that added energy in the gym. It was nice since the carbs I took in (being on low carb 95% of the day) went right to use. It gave me a great pump.