CKD Diet + Fruits

[rleechb]

So I've been on the CKD diet for a week now. Naturally, I'm a skinny guy (5'10" 170), but I'd like lose ~5lbs of fat, particularly in the ab region (I'm on the verge of a 6-pack, but have a thin layer + love handles/a little back fat).

Currently, I lift 5 times a day, fairly heavy, for an hour at lunch, and do 20 minutes on a spin bike at medium intensity after work. I eat whatever I want (burgers, pizza) on saturdays, but try to stay in moderation. I don't count calories (although maybe I should) because I'm well, lazy. I just try to make sure I don't overeat/stuff myself everytime I have a meal (which happens 4-5 times a day).

Anyways, I'm told that a variety of fruits are just fine, and don't really count for carbs (from some reading I've been doing through these boards)? Any validity to that? If so, what kinds of fruits can I consume without spiking blood sugar? I'm pretty big on fruit, but I've cut it completely out of my diet (sans saturday) for this diet.

Any other suggestions are also welcome. Ideally, I'd like to stay on this diet as short as possible, so I can start bulking again (I've noticed some muscle loss already, which is frustrating).

 

[ThomasRivera]

Generally, I avoid too much fruit on CKD or any ketogenic diet. When getting carbs your looking to increase muscle glycogen levels. Fruits increase liver glycogen levels.

CKD is a body recomposition diet, not a traditional cutting diet, keep that in mind. Ideally you should lose fat during the low carb portion of the week while maintaining as much muscle as possible and gaining muscle back/adding muscle with a training session near your carb load.

About your muscles looking smaller, thats normal, during CKD muscles tend to look "flat" because of the loss of muscle glycogen which holds water. This isn't a diet you can follow a scale with either, depending on how quickly you deplete glycogen and how many carbs you get in during your carb load your weight loss and gain can differ greatly.

You should really read the ketogenic diet by Lyle Mcdonald.

 

[Nitrox]

Yes fruits count for carbs. Like vegetables they also have a cellulose (fibre) component that is not digestible by humans and therefore does not contribute to energy intake. However, fruit in general also has simple carbs.

A blood sugar/insulin spike is a result of not only what you eat but also how much. If you're not counting calories or portions, discussing this is moot.

IMO the ideology that fruit cannot replenish muscle glycogen is erroneous. While fructose must be metabolized in the liver, that does not prevent it from reaching the bloodstream and being available for uptake by muscles. There is just an intermediate step.

 

[ThomasRivera]

Yes fruits count for carbs. Like vegetables they also have a cellulose (fibre) component that is not digestible by humans and therefore does not contribute to energy intake. However, fruit in general also has simple carbs.

A blood sugar/insulin spike is a result of not only what you eat but also how much. If you're not counting calories or portions, discussing this is moot.

IMO the ideology that fruit cannot replenish muscle glycogen is erroneous. While fructose must be metabolized in the liver, that does not prevent it from reaching the bloodstream and being available for uptake by muscles. There is just an intermediate step.

Heres what I based my statement on. Unless you can find something thats more up to date, which i would be very interested in reading.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3592616

In athletics, muscle and liver glycogen content is critical to endurance. This study compared the effectiveness of glucose and fructose feeding on restoring glycogen content after glycogen was decreased by exercise (90-min swim) or fasting (24 h). After 2 h of recovery from either exercise or fasting there was no measurable glycogen repletion in red vastus lateralis muscle in response to fructose.

 

[Nitrox]

Heres what I based my statement on. Unless you can find something thats more up to date, which i would be very interested in reading.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3592616

In athletics, muscle and liver glycogen content is critical to endurance. This study compared the effectiveness of glucose and fructose feeding on restoring glycogen content after glycogen was decreased by exercise (90-min swim) or fasting (24 h). After 2 h of recovery from either exercise or fasting there was no measurable glycogen repletion in red vastus lateralis muscle in response to fructose.

Couple things:

First off, the useable carbohydrate in fruit is often more than just fructose. For example in bananas, the carbs are approx 2/5 fructose, 2/5 glucose, and 1/5 sucrose (50:50 glucose:fructose). So it is unfair to label all fruit as strictly a fructose source and thus inappropriate according that study.

Secondly, I question the applicability of the study itself - the context is too specific.
- Why were the subjects fasting if this was a study for athletic purposes?
- For those that were not fasting, what were their pre-activity meals like? How much did they eat?
- If liver stores are full, surplus glucose should spill over into the blood stream to be stored as muscle glycogen or converted to fat.
- How does 90 mins swimming compare to 45 mins of weight training?
- Why did they not investigate the effectiveness when taken pre workout?

 

[dank311]

the only fruit I eat on CKD, is an apple before each workout. Its low in GI, GL, overall carbs, has fiber, and vitamins and nutrients, and gives me great workouts! For post w/o I use to use fruits sometimes, but read to much about the liver glycogen as well. So, now I have protein waffles and maple syrup. (usually just one waffle and about 30ml of syrup to equal to ~30 carbs.)

But, in generality, a carb is a carb, what really matters is how much you eat of it and when you eat it. I know a guy who did a CDK and the only source of carbs he had was the sugar from coca-cola post w/o. (50g exactly carbs from coke after each w/o) and he steadily lost 2lbs a week no sweat.

You just gotta find your own sweet spot on the amount and how your body reacts.

 

[ThomasRivera]

Couple things:

First off, the useable carbohydrate in fruit is often more than just fructose. For example in bananas, the carbs are approx 2/5 fructose, 2/5 glucose, and 1/5 sucrose (50:50 glucose:fructose). So it is unfair to label all fruit as strictly a fructose source and thus inappropriate according that study.

Secondly, I question the applicability of the study itself - the context is too specific.
- Why were the subjects fasting if this was a study for athletic purposes?
- For those that were not fasting, what were their pre-activity meals like? How much did they eat?
- If liver stores are full, surplus glucose should spill over into the blood stream to be stored as muscle glycogen or converted to fat.
- How does 90 mins swimming compare to 45 mins of weight training?
- Why did they not investigate the effectiveness when taken pre workout?

I dont think it was tailored towards the pure athlete, more just of the recomposition itself. I've never read anywhere that fructose spills over into the blood and is used like glucose. Do you have any links to information of that on hand?

Your right, fruits like bananas have a good balance of glucose, but there are fruits that have large amounts of fructose vs glucose.

 

[ThomasRivera]

the only fruit I eat on CKD, is an apple before each workout. Its low in GI, GL, overall carbs, has fiber, and vitamins and nutrients, and gives me great workouts! For post w/o I use to use fruits sometimes, but read to much about the liver glycogen as well. So, now I have protein waffles and maple syrup. (usually just one waffle and about 30ml of syrup to equal to ~30 carbs.)

But, in generality, a carb is a carb, what really matters is how much you eat of it and when you eat it. I know a guy who did a CDK and the only source of carbs he had was the sugar from coca-cola post w/o. (50g exactly carbs from coke after each w/o) and he steadily lost 2lbs a week no sweat.

You just gotta find your own sweet spot on the amount and how your body reacts.

Ever had the vermont sugar free maple syrup? Pretty good stuff, I made these improvised crepes with just eggs, heavy cream and a tad of vanilla and it was pretty good.