[USPLabs]

Originally Posted by jasonschaffin

The thing is though I badly want a product that is good for tendons/ligaments. This was my hope, but if the joint confort comes from estrogen effects I want to know how this phytoestrogen effects the rest of me, particularly HPTA. Apparently (and I have not researched this yet) diazdein doesn't increase testosterone nor is it selective to ERb. We know very little about cissus phyto e's, just wanna know more is all.

I can't blame but I applaud you for that.

[jasonschaffin]

Journal of Endocrinology, Vol 170, Issue 3, 591-599
Copyright © 2001 by Society for Endocrinology

Articles

Dietary soy-phytoestrogens decrease testosterone levels and prostate weight without altering LH, prostate 5alpha-reductase or testicular steroidogenic acute regulatory peptide levels in adult male Sprague-Dawley rats
KS Weber, KD Setchell, DM Stocco, and ED Lephart



Nutritional factors, especially phytoestrogens, have been extensively studied for their potential beneficial effects against hormone-dependent and age-related diseases. The present study describes the short-term effects of dietary phytoestrogens on regulatory behaviors (food/water intake, locomotor activity and body weight), prostate weight, prostate 5alpha-reductase enzyme activity, reproductive hormone levels, and testicular steroidogenic acute regulatory peptide (StAR) levels in adult Sprague-Dawley rats. Animals were fed either a phytoestrogen-rich diet containing approximately 600 microg/g isoflavones (as determined by HPLC) or a phytoestrogen-free diet. After 5 weeks of consuming these diets, plasma phytoestrogen levels were 35 times higher in animals fed the phytoestrogen-rich vs phytoestrogen-free diets. Body and prostate weights were significantly decreased in animals fed the phytoestrogen-rich diet vs the phytoestrogen-free fed animals; however, no significant change in prostate 5alpha-reductase enzyme activity was observed between the treatment groups. Locomotor activity levels were higher in the phytoestrogen-rich vs the phytoestrogen-free animals during the course of the treatment interval. Plasma testosterone and androstenedione levels were significantly lower in the animals fed the phytoestrogen-rich diet compared with animals fed the phytoestrogen-free diet. However, there were no significant differences in plasma LH or estradiol levels between the diet groups. Testicular StAR levels were not significantly different between the phytoestrogen-rich vs the phytoestrogen-free fed animals. These results indicated that consumption of dietary phytoestrogens resulting in very high plasma isoflavone levels over a relatively short period can significantly alter body and prostate weight and plasma androgen hormone levels without affecting gonadotropin or testicular StAR levels. The findings of this study identify the biological actions of phytoestrogens on male reproductive endocrinology and provide insights into the protective effects these estrogen mimics exert in male reproductive disorders such as benign prostatic hyperplasia and prostate cancer.

Obviously in rats and I'm sure anybody can find another study to refute it. But they are at least male rats.

[USPLabs]

Originally Posted by jasonschaffin

If we find out cissus phyto's increase LH and test expect me to be first in line for some. The thing is we don't know.

There a lot of FDA drugs without a definite mechanism of action but they work. Food for thought..

[jasonschaffin]

Huh, hadn't heard this one before. There is no 'proof' here by any means but more food for thought.

Phytoestrogen supplementation: a case report of male breast cancer.

Research papers

European Journal of Cancer Prevention. 13(6):481-484, December 2004.
Dimitrakakis, C 1; Gosselink, L 1; Gaki, V 2; Bredakis, N 2; Keramopoulos, A 2
Abstract:
Patients seeking alternatives to hormone replacement are increasingly using non-prescription phytoestrogen supplements. The potential of these herbal remedies to prevent bone loss, heart disease, menopausal symptoms or breast cancer has been a focus of attention in scientific and lay literature. It is important to understand the effects of phytoestrogens, particularly whether excess exposure can promote hyperplasia or neoplasia of breast tissue. We report the case of a man diagnosed with breast cancer whose history was notable for extensive use of supplemental phytoestrogens and the absence of family history of breast cancer or BRCA1/BRCA2 mutation. In conclusion, breast tissue effects of phytoestrogens remain unclear. The increasing popularity and availability of phytoestrogen dietary supplements necessitates additional research in order to counsel patients regarding their safety and efficacy.

(C) 2004 Lippincott Williams & Wilkins, Inc.

[jasonschaffin]

Originally Posted by USPLabs

There a lot of FDA drugs without a definite mechanism of action but they work. Food for thought..

Very true. Well I am done study searching for the night. Goodnight all.

[matthew76]

This has to be one of the best threads here!

Jacob - you've got a PM bro...

[dinoiii]

Originally Posted by USPLabs

Funny, He states that he has been preaching for years that Cisuss is estogenic but produces a 2007 study that is specific to bone and compares it to a SERM that increases LH and testosterone....Not such a bad thing in my opinion.

Yes, I have and will continue to do so...the mechanism is NOT new nor limited to the study I posted and you KNOW that...what I did that morning as I told you over at LB is find but one example from a plethora (claim what you will to suit your plight as this has seemed typical).

And here, I thought posting the most recent would be beneficial - instead I get chastized for that too, so I concede - do what you will, because this is beyond just defending your brand - this is complete misrepresentation to suit your purposes.

That said, Raloxifene has minimal immpact on the HPTA! In fact, when compared head to head as an FYI...the only "SERM" and it kind of doesn't fit the class "cleanly" that had good impact on the HPTA is Clomid...so - do what you will and continue doing it. Again, bathe in the stuff for all I care, but do NOT tell me its release may not have been premature in the way it has been touted.

You can attempt to chastize my work (Agmatine for instance, though in order to get to the bottom line here, I fortunately used to work with the people who studied the compound directly and as for the Eucommia - if there wasn't a true patented extraction method for the phytoandrogen, it would NOT have made the Primal Male formula...I assure you). You will never hear me claiming chasing any animal to get saliva or doing some super-duper, beat-em-all extract (completely rare to the industry ummm, and DSHEA compliant through and through)...no that is delusional and downright dishonest...but hey, who the hell am I...apparently just another guy with an "ego" - shocking, I'm sure.



And for the record...NO, I have NOT been involved in any joint formulation so my vested interest is NOT there.

Still, might appreciate an answer to the original compound as it was asked of me...and hey - if you go review that thread...what did I say? I have NO IDEA what the compound is and am UNFAMILIAR WITH THE NOMENCLATURE. That really sounds like someone who claims to "know it all."

Anyway - thanks for playing...gimme a break. Geesh!


D_

[USPLabs]

Originally Posted by dinoiii

Yes, I have and will continue to do so...the mechanism is NOT new nor limited to the study I posted and you KNOW that...what I did that morning as I told you over at LB is find but one example from a plethora (claim what you will to suit your plight as this has seemed typical).

And here, I thought posting the most recent would be beneficial - instead I get chastized for that too, so I concede - do what you will, because this is beyond just defending your brand - this is complete misrepresentation to suit your purposes.

That said, Raloxifene has minimal immpact on the HPTA! In fact, when compared head to head as an FYI...the only "SERM" and it kind of doesn't fit the class "cleanly" that had good impact on the HPTA is Clomid...so - do what you will and continue doing it. Again, bathe in the stuff for all I care, but do NOT tell me its release may not have been premature in the way it has been touted.

You can attempt to chastize my work (Agmatine for instance, though in order to get to the bottom line here, I fortunately used to work with the people who studied the compound directly and as for the Eucommia - if there wasn't a true patented extraction method for the phytoandrogen, it would NOT have made the Primal Male formula...I assure you). You will never hear me claiming chasing any animal to get saliva or doing some super-duper, beat-em-all extract (completely rare to the industry ummm, and DSHEA compliant through and through)...no that is delusional and downright dishonest...but hey, who the hell am I...apparently just another guy with an "ego" - shocking, I'm sure.



And for the record...NO, I have NOT been involved in any joint formulation so my vested interest is NOT there.

Still, might appreciate an answer to the original compound as it was asked of me...and hey - if you go review that thread...what did I say? I have NO IDEA what the compound is and am UNFAMILIAR WITH THE NOMENCLATURE. That really sounds like someone who claims to "know it all."

Anyway - thanks for playing...gimme a break. Geesh!


D_

Assume as you may Doc about our operations because you excel at thinking you know it all. With our next release Recreate, USPlabs will release 2 new compounds and 3 new extractions. After recreate, we have a brand new Testosterone releasing compound. I assure you our products are not smoke and mirrors. You can chastise and criticize all you like, and I must admit you are soooo good with your Internet acronyms like OMIgod and capitalization of specific words.

For a doctor, you've become childish and condescending in debate, or the word "troll" may fit your internet lingo better so OMIgod, I'm done with your silliness.

[USPLabs]

Originally Posted by dr ozz

I read in the other forums that people wrote about cissus and gyno and it made me a little worried. Is this a side-effect that has been reported in many cases? I didn't know cissus and powerfull has estrogenic properties, do they?

Oscar

Ps. Im dosing 2/2/2 each + Anagen

In 3 years and thousands and thousands of users and repeat users(meaning the use for 6--8 months straight or longer) not 1 report and many many consumers with pre existing GYNO conditions have reported 0 agitation of symptoms.

Pretty conclusive.

[Colin]

Leucine and my use of other supplements has no relevance to this matter.

I do not have access to the study,otherwise I would not have asked USPLabs to provide the text.Given the fact that USPLabs sells cissus products I would think that you or Jacob would be happy to post up a study indicating cissus to be devoid of any chance of inducing gyno.

The abstract I provided is enough to raise healthy skepticism,as is the bulk of Dinoii's commentary.USPLabs merely dismissing my request as unfounded ,as well as labeling D's words as childish when D has presented a grounded arguement,does not paint USPLabs as a whole in a good light.

As a representative I think I would not hesitate to step up to defend my product,I would one surely do so if Avant product was called into question.

Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier

It's odd, there is an imposition for a burden of proof here, where the charges lack a leg to stand on.

Colin,

You first provide me with something beyond that single abstract to imply Cissus contains androgens and/or other gyno-inducing constituents, and I will do the legwork to dig up that whole study. If one abstract, unfounded, then legitimately refuted, is enough to sway your use, you should stay away from supplements in general.

I have read probably over 100 studies on Leucine alone and I am still undecided.

[Colin]

Originally Posted by USPLabs

Please link me to the study, However, I have the full-text study and they didn't have access to NMR nor
did they indicate any specific molecule. They used IR spectra and only gave clues to the molecule's identity.
The study was Posted by PA over at Avant. PA claimed it contained androstendione.

We been studing Cissus for over a year and if it where a progestrin it would not be a hidden fact.

This only serves to illustrate the point of my last post further;USPLabs has the full text study on hand yet has not posted it after my (a consumer who has purchased USPLabs cissus in the past) request to do so.

[USPLabs]

Originally Posted by Colin

Leucine and my use of other supplements has no relevance to this matter.

I do not have access to the study,otherwise I would not have asked USPLabs to provide the text.Given the fact that USPLabs sells cissus products I would think that you or Jacob would be happy to post up a study indicating cissus to be devoid of any chance of inducing gyno.

The abstract I provided is enough to raise healthy skepticism,as is the bulk of Dinoii's commentary.USPLabs merely dismissing my request as unfounded ,as well as labeling D's words as childish when D has presented a grounded arguement,does not paint USPLabs as a whole in a good light.

As a representative I think I would not hesitate to step up to defend my product,I would one surely do so if Avant product was called into question.

What you posted was a copy and paste from another forum..that abstract is fabricated. I addressed the issue just go back to the thread that you copied and pasted from.

This was almost 2 years ago..

[Mulletsoldier]

Originally Posted by Colin

Leucine and my use of other supplements has no relevance to this matter.

I do not have access to the study,otherwise I would not have asked USPLabs to provide the text.Given the fact that USPLabs sells cissus products I would think that you or Jacob would be happy to post up a study indicating cissus to be devoid of any chance of inducing gyno.

The abstract I provided is enough to raise healthy skepticism,as is the bulk of Dinoii's commentary.USPLabs merely dismissing my request as unfounded ,as well as labeling D's words as childish when D has presented a grounded arguement,does not paint USPLabs as a whole in a good light.

As a representative I think I would not hesitate to step up to defend my product,I would one surely do so if Avant product was called into question.

Firstly, do not speak to me about jumping to the defense of USP Labs; I was this company's first and, at one time, only representative. I've littered this and other boards with exorbitant amount of data on our products.

Secondly, the issue at hand is a nuanced understanding of Phytos., and their interplay with Alpha and Beta ERs. As has been stated, they have a low binding affinity to Alpha-1 ERs which are expressed heavily in breast tissue, leading to a low chance of Cissus inducing gyno.

Thirdly, it would seem you didn't understand to the allusion to Leucine; my point was recognizing emergent patterns from bodies of data, not a single abstract without a leg to stand on.

Not to sway towards arbitrariness and subjectiveness, but, the fact is, the 'real-world' most often produces the emergent patterns I spoke of earlier. I.e., we have all seen lauded ingredients and supplements fail to produce in real-world scenarios because of unforeseen complexities. Now, Cissus, and I speak of the ingredient as a whole not merely our product, has been prominent in this capacity since 2005 (fair assumption). If there was a tangible danger of it inducing or exacerbating gyno., then the reports would exist, but, they do not. This is mere speculation and conjecture which, to this point, has not been validated by real-world occurrence.

Literally thousands of individuals have ingested Cissus and I have actually never seen a single report of this. That is what is deemed as an emergent pattern in a body of real-world data.

[USPLabs]

Originally Posted by Colin

This only serves to illustrate the point of my last post further;USPLabs has the full text study on hand yet has not posted it after my (a consumer who has purchased USPLabs cissus in the past) request to do so.

It's at the school's medical libary. It should not be our job to defend an ficticious report. You should e-mail Pat Arnold and ask him for the full text.