[treningsfrik75]

I have gyno from puberty and it also grows if i go overboard with carbs in my diet. The lumps start to ich as hell.
I have tried both powerfull and cissus and it has not done anything to my gyno.
I also have gone pretty high on the cissus ( megadose)
Have a 10% half kilo powder from USP.

So i doubt strongly cissus is causing gyno. not for me anyway

[dadream]

FWIW i have a slight case of gyno and i use about 6grams/day of cissus and it has not made it any worse or better so i wouldn't worry bout it, especially to cause gyno.

[Colin]

Why don't you just post the full study to clear your Cissus product line of containing progestins?

As you are the one who stands to profit from cissus (and not us/the consumers) I think this is a reasonable request.

Intil then,I will not be using cissus in any form.

I would like to use cissus but cannot do so as I'm unsure as to wether or not progestins will be had along with the benefits of cissus,this which would be a a huge drawback IMO.

Originally Posted by USPLabs

If you do not believe me Please find that study

Active constituents (oxo steroids) of Cissus quadrangularis. Sen, S. P. Dept. Pharmacol., Banaras Hindu Univ., Indian Journal of Pharmacy (1964), 26(9), 247-8. CODEN: IJPAAO ISSN: 0019-5472. Journal written in English. CAN 62:22726 AN 1965:22726 CAPLUS

Abstract

An ether ext. of C. quadrangularis, purified by column chromatography, yielded an oxo steroid, m. 134-6°; Ac deriv. m. 124°. The uv and ir spectra suggested an a,b-unsatd. ketone.

Once you find that study, Please replicate the below info. I gurantee you can not...

Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-
(nuclear magnetic resonance of)

57-83-0, Progesterone
63-05-8, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione
152-58-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-
600-48-6, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-
640-87-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-, 21-acetate
803-08-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-
1235-92-3, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 7a,14-dihydroxy-
1758-12-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1758-13-0, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 21-acetate
1758-14-1, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1974-64-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-, diacetate

[matthew76]

W T F?

Cissus/PF runs wild through my veins as if it was pumping straight from my heart and I've done nothing but get great results with NO GYNO!

Man, I bet if PA said that Creatine can cure limp-d!ck if you snort it, some people would actually do it. WTF!?!

[jasonschaffin]

Originally Posted by matthew76

W T F?

Cissus/PF runs wild through my veins as if it was pumping straight from my heart and I've done nothing but get great results with NO GYNO!

Man, I bet if PA said that Creatine can cure limp-d!ck if you snort it, some people would actually do it. WTF!?!

This isn't a PA said so thing. PA posted an abstract with this info. USP says the full text doesn't have this info, but we have not seen the full text. Somebody needs to find it and post it. I read a post from PA awhile ago claiming that after he looked at his own cissus (I think, maybe someone elses) he found no traces of androgens.

P.S. I have used the ol' 5% extract with no problems as well as the 40% primaforce. Will be using the supercissus on my next big bulk to keep the joints strong too. I'm not scared.

[Mulletsoldier]

It's odd, there is an imposition for a burden of proof here, where the charges lack a leg to stand on.

Colin,

You first provide me with something beyond that single abstract to imply Cissus contains androgens and/or other gyno-inducing constituents, and I will do the legwork to dig up that whole study. If one abstract, unfounded, then legitimately refuted, is enough to sway your use, you should stay away from supplements in general.

I have read probably over 100 studies on Leucine alone and I am still undecided.

[jasonschaffin]

Ha, maybe I spoke too soon about using cissus. Got this from a Doc on a Lean Bulk

Pharmacologyonline 3: 190-202 (2007) Rao et al. CISSUS QUADRANGULARIS PLANT EXTRACT ENHANCES THE DEVELOPMENT OF CORTICAL BONE AND TRABECULAE IN THE FETAL FEMUR Muddanna S.Rao 1*,Bhagath Kumar P1, Narayana Swamy V.B3,Gopalan Kutty N2, 1Department of Anatomy, KMC Maniple, 2Department of Pharmacology, MCOPSManipal, 3Department of Pharmacognosy, MCOPS Manipal*Address for correspondence: Associate Professor, Dept. of Anatomy, KMC, Manipal, Manipal University, 576104, India, e-mail: muddannas@yahoo.com Summary Traditional recipes for treatment of physical and mental ailments exist in all major ancient civilizations of the world. One such recipe popular in the Indian subcontinentinvolves the use of the extract of Cissus quadrangularis plant .Cissus quadrangularis is ashrub, with thick and fleshy quadrangular stem. The roots and stem are most useful forhealing of fracture of the bones. The question whether the plant Cissus quadrangularis, which is proved to contain phyto-estrogens will increase the bone mass during fetalgrowth is not addressed. Accordingly the objective of the present study was to evaluatethe effect of alcoholic extract of Cissus quadrangularis on the intrauterine growth oftrabeculae in the long bones in rats. Pregnant rats were administered with Ethanol extract of Cissus quadrangularis (CQ), orally, at the dose of 750 mg/kg body weight from 9thday of gestation till delivery. Femur bone of the newborn pups were collected, decalcified and processed for paraffin sectioning. Thickness of cortical bone at mid shaft level,thickness of individual trabeculae were measured using a calibrated ocular micrometer. Results showed a significantly increase in thickness of the cortical bone at mid shaft levelcompared to control rats. The thickness of individual trabecula was increasedsignificantly. The present study demonstrates enhanced bone formation during fetal growth by CQ, which may be related to rich content of calcium, phosphorus and phytoestrogenic property of the plant. Key words: Ossification, Cissus quadrangularis, Cortical bone, Trabeculae,Femur

Phytoestrogenicsteroids have been isolated from Cissus quadrangularis plant (13, 14, 15), has beenshown to influence early regeneration and quick mineralization of bone fracture healing process

The question whether the plant Cissus quadrangularis, which is proved to contain phyto-estrogens will increase the bone mass during fetal growth is not addressed.

In the present experimental study we have reported an increased bone mass in the pups born to the treated pregnant rats. This may be attributed to the phytoestrogenic compounds isolated from this plant (13) which might have altered the maternal estrogen level. The plant extract increased the trabecular density of bone the effect was identical on both male and female pups. Hence data was analyzed together. Alternatively, the phyto-estrogenic compounds or other unidentified chemicalcompounds might have altered the steroidal hormonal levels in the pregnant rats, there byinfluencing the skeleton of the fetus/neonatal pups. Another possibility is that the phytoestrogens present in the plant extract might have crossed the placental barrier and reached the developing fetus and influenced the skeletal system

The calcium ions, phosphorous and phytoestrogens present in this plant extract may be made use in the process of ossification and fracture healing.

Now I know not all phytoestrogens are bad, but we don't know about this one. Especially direct effects in males. I doubt I would use it anytime I would be susceptible(sp) to gyno (on cycle, PCT).

[Mulletsoldier]

A few things here. Firstly, the vast majority of phyto-oestrogens are non-steroidal, and, what isn't being understood here, is their effect on bone density is being mitigated through non-steroidal pathways; secondly, we have two dominant oestrogen receptor types, alpha, and beta. Phytoestrogens, though this is obviously dependent on the phyto., in question, almost exclusively activate the beta receptor. Beta is mostly expressed in the brain, bone tissue, bladder, and a few other tissues. As well, and this is important, Phytos have EXTREMELY LOW binding affinity, meaning the intrinsic action on an ER1 receptor, if it were to occur, would be very little.

Not to be a ****, but it's easy to accuse/doubt when the necessary research has been conducted. Oestrogen/gyno., is the cancer of the bodybuilding world; everything causes it. The interplay between Alpha/Beta ER and Phytos is complex and nuanced, and it's a misstep to characterize Cissus in this gyno-inducing capacity.

Feel free to do some more research on phytos if you think I am being an ass or pulling your chain.

[poopypants]

Originally Posted by RenegadeRows

Can somebody post who has gyno or has had it in the past who is dosing Cissus, comment on whether or not it aggrivated them, and @ what doses? I highly doubt cissus alone could CAUSE gyno, whether or not it makes an already established condition worse, I'd like to hear feedback.

I personally haven't seen anybody using Cissus claim it caused a flareup...

I have had severe gyno, most peple following my logs know this, Had it from superdrol and got rid of alot of it with an Epi, torem and HDX2 cycle.... Im now taking 6g's ED of Super Cissus bulk and dont have a SINGLE problem with any kind of flare up or pain, which if it was a truel strong progestin I would know and would be in immense pain like I was with propadrol.

This sounds bogus to me. Powerfull is slightly ANTI-progestenic but thats the extent of the relation to progesterone that I think either of these have. You cant take single persons accounts of gyno flare up for fact, one they might not even have any real gyno and two who knows what else they are taking or have taken in the last couple months???

[jasonschaffin]

Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier

A few things here. Firstly, the vast majority of phyto-oestrogens are non-steroidal, and, what isn't being understood here, is their effect on bone density is being mitigated through non-steroidal pathways; secondly, we have two dominant oestrogen receptor types, alpha, and beta. Phytoestrogens, though this is obviously dependent on the phyto., in question, almost exclusively activate the beta receptor. Beta is mostly expressed in the brain, bone tissue, bladder, and a few other tissues. As well, and this is important, Phytos have EXTREMELY LOW binding affinity, meaning the intrinsic action on an ER1 receptor, if it were to occur, would be very little.

Not to be a ****, but it's easy to accuse/doubt when the necessary research has been conducted. Oestrogen/gyno., is the cancer of the bodybuilding world; everything causes it. The interplay between Alpha/Beta ER and Phytos is complex and nuanced, and it's a misstep to characterize Cissus in this gyno-inducing capacity.

Feel free to do some more research on phytos if you think I am being an ass or pulling your chain.

You're going to make me quote myself.

Now I know not all phytoestrogens are bad, but we don't know about this one. Especially direct effects in males. I doubt I would use it anytime I would be susceptible(sp) to gyno (on cycle, post cycle therapy).

This was my response since Jacob said:

Please post research proving cissus's phytoestrogenic acitivity.

after he said this:

You are responsible for the creation of a product (I will not be specific), but one ingredient is proven to bind to the ER, but I do not see it your write up, Why is that? I really hate the hypocrisy in the industry. We selectively attack but still have skeletons in the closet. Is that ethical?

Jacob is talking about hypocrisy, calls out a product put out that has a ingredient binding to the ER. Isn't that hypocrisy on his part? Cissus is estrogenic, it's not is his write up. I just want everyone to know.
I do doubt it causes gyno in anyway, but if my bones are not broken I will not need the cissus anyways. We have no medical proof it does anything for ligaments/tendons the use I would have used it for. And we have proof it is estrogenic, how much we don't know. I know I have read posting (almost sure by Jacob, but not positive) not to use Formadrol Extreme for the Diazedin. Why is it that phytoestrogen is bad but it is stupid to think that the one in cissus, with no real research behind might not be. Anybody report gyno from FormExtreme? Not that I have heard of. The more we know the better off we all are.

[jasonschaffin]

well I can't find the post about diazedin i thought i remembered. anybody know anything about its effects?

[USPLabs]

Originally Posted by jasonschaffin

You're going to make me quote myself.

This was my response since Jacob said:


after he said this:


Jacob is talking about hypocrisy, calls out a product put out that has a ingredient binding to the ER. Isn't that hypocrisy on his part? Cissus is estrogenic, it's not is his write up. I just want everyone to know.
I do doubt it causes gyno in anyway, but if my bones are not broken I will not need the cissus anyways. We have no medical proof it does anything for ligaments/tendons the use I would have used it for. And we have proof it is estrogenic, how much we don't know. I know I have read posting (almost sure by Jacob, but not positive) not to use Formadrol Extreme for the Diazedin. Why is it that phytoestrogen is bad but it is stupid to think that the one in cissus, with no real research behind might not be. Anybody report gyno from FormExtreme? Not that I have heard of. The more we know the better off we all are.

Whoa whoa whoa.

He is posting 1 study just released in 2007 so please yield on the hypocrisy talk.

We have studies that prove that Cissus also contians Keto Steroids.

Please remember we use SERMS(estrogens) for post cycle theraphy. Instead of jumping to conclusions, Please allow some time for our science team to address the questions instead of reacting so hastely.

On the bright side, Cissus could work as a SERM and has proven independent anabolic properties. The good old DOC just might have given us another positive mechanism of action.

[USPLabs]

Originally Posted by Colin

Why don't you just post the full study to clear your Cissus product line of containing progestins?

As you are the one who stands to profit from cissus (and not us/the consumers) I think this is a reasonable request.

Intil then,I will not be using cissus in any form.

I would like to use cissus but cannot do so as I'm unsure as to wether or not progestins will be had along with the benefits of cissus,this which would be a a huge drawback IMO.

All you have to do is look up that study to get your answer.

This addition below was fabricated. You can find the old post at mind and muscle or avant..not sure

Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-
(nuclear magnetic resonance of)

57-83-0, Progesterone
63-05-8, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione
152-58-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-
600-48-6, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-
640-87-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 17,21-dihydroxy-, 21-acetate
803-08-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-
1235-92-3, Androst-4-ene-3,17-dione, 7a,14-dihydroxy-
1758-12-9, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15a,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1758-13-0, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 21-acetate
1758-14-1, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 15b,17,21-trihydroxy-, 15,21-diacetate
1974-64-7, Pregn-4-ene-3,20-dione, 6b,11a-dihydroxy-, diacetate

[USPLabs]

Originally Posted by jasonschaffin

well I can't find the post about diazedin i thought i remembered. anybody know anything about its effects?

I have no idea this product existed FormExtreme. You are confused.