Do you mean, that the method of measurement does not apply?
It was (or used to) be 5:1 right?
I'm sorry I started this thread because USPLabs answered this many months ago on this board.
USPLabs uses the entire plant not just the stems. Extract ratios at bulk herb sellers denote concentration derived from the stems alone. To quote USPLabs: "Its the total content of cissus that makes it unique. The extract would provide a pure Keto-steriod product, but its the whole plant thats medicinal."
The Cissus Quadrangularis plant is made up of the stems, leaves when young, flowers, and fruit as well as the roots.
In addition to medicinal properties UspLabs' product CissusRX appears to exhibit anabolic properties not present or limited in bulk extracts.
Originally Posted by meowmeow
Why are you sorry?? I thought Cissus was marketed on the basis of the keto-steroids.
I'd like an answer from usplabs.
Marcus darling (lol boomerang sorry).Originally Posted by MarcusG
What answer to you want? Our patent pending answer or the general answer quoted by my good friend meow?
?Originally Posted by USPLabs
Why would the patent pending make it difficult to reveal the concentration?? And you did say :-
"I will put in a good word. your chance is now 50:1:}"
So are you now repudiating your own statement?
Do you have any links to studies about ergogenic substances which are supposed to be present in the roots/leaves?
At this point with some many copy cat companies, This will have to be kept secret.Originally Posted by MarcusG
So is going to be revealed once you get the patent and how long is it supposed to take?Originally Posted by USPLabs
I think when you implied 50:1, I have a right to know if its true. Please pm if you like to keep it private.
And what exactly is the difference between the substances between the leaves/root/stems? Can you produce any literature?
I did a search but couldn't find the references I thought I saw a long time ago.
The difference is our extraction process used so our ratio are just a bit higher then commercially avialable cissus.Originally Posted by MarcusG
you have no right to know, you have the choice of taking it or not. what the hell is with you getting off on demanding the ratio and the rest of this info?Originally Posted by MarcusG
this is a good company, just buy thier product and support them. they are cheap, cheaper probably then buying in bulk form some foreign country and taking in that powder straight.
Last edited by Pioneer; 11-15-2005 at 03:20 PM.
If you're extraction ratio is higher then what the reticence in letting people know?
You and meow implied that your products concentration is lower but contains other different substances contained in the leaves/roots as opposed to only the stems.
So what does higher mean? So is it higher than 20:1? Is it 50:1?
And what about studies/links about these new substances?
Very funny.Originally Posted by Pioneer
do a pubmed search or read our product description at synergymuscle.com. I never implied anything about our concentrate sir.Originally Posted by MarcusG
Ok. The description at your website reads 1220mg 5% extract keto-sterones. So is it a 5:1 concentration?Originally Posted by USPLabs
Anecdotally speaking I have used both CissusRX and bulk at an extract ratio of 20:1. In terms of medicinal value CissusRX was superior in both relative and absolute terms. In addition the muscle preserving aspects of CissusRX were not present in the bulk. For me CissusRX has the same anti-catabolic effect as daily Ma Huang use without the sides.
Extracts are simply concentrated forms of what the maker "deems" to be the most important part of an herb, obtained through extracting the properties of a crude herb using a solvent. At this time bulk Cissus quadrangularis is not sold by anyone as a standardized extract. It is not manufactured, tested and guaranteed to contain a said amount of "active constituents". Therefore comparing ratios has limited value.
When we speak of extract ratios we should ask what is being extracted. Traditional herbalists argue that this process causes a loss of "other" compounds therefore degrading any synergistic actions which are still unexplained but known to happen.
It has been documented in a recent study on the anti-oxidant properties of Cissus quadrangularis that the stem part of Cissus quadrangularis contains 479 mg of vitamin C, 267 units of carotenoids, 0.73% of calcium, steroidal and phenolic substances. Phytochemical studies on the extract used in the study revealed the presence of triterpenes including a- and ß- amyrins, ß-sitosterol, ketosteroid, phenols, tannins, carotene and vitamin C. See: African Journal of Biomedical Research, Vol. 8, No. 2, 2005, pp.95-99
It is very important to note that the afore-mentioned study used properly cultivated high-grade Cissus, a vacuum drier to remove extraction solvents and a standardized freeze temperature for storage.
It is probable that USPLabs:
1. Views parts of Cissus not present in bulk as important "active constituents".
2. Has identified synergistic actions of compounds present in the whole herb but lost in typical extracts.
3. Takes measures to insure their Cissus is high-grade thus preserving easily degraded compounds.
4. Has spent more time, effort, and energy on reviewing studies and gathering a broad base of user reports than any other non-academic entity.
5. As a consequence has spent time, effort, energy and financial resources in developing their product CissusRX which differs substantially from the currently available bulk Cissus.
I appreciate your feedback especially since you tried 2 products.
A moderator reported good pumps, libido boost with a different product so it isn't all bunk.
And I know what USPlabs meant. I was just a little surprised because the more potent herb extracts usually only use a certain portion of the plant like the berries or root or leaves. This is the first time, I've seen a product marketed as superior by using the whole plant.
I don't know how you came to the conclusion of points 3-5 since its not documented in Synergy's website.
I am planning to try a few cissus products after a long rehab.
For what its worth I think (some others also believe) that kava kava is more effective as a whole herb than taking straight kavalactones.
cant wait any longer...