Cissus vs. Tendonitis cycle log
02-25-2005 04:21 PM
Cissus vs. Tendonitis cycle log
Just recieved my Cissus Quadrangularis from USPLabs/Synergy.
After reading supaman's cAMPHIBOLIC log on the Synergy forum, I was intrigued by his reported amelioration of tendonitis symptoms from a chronic brachialis injury. The reason for my interest is that I just happen to be suffering from INTENSE tendonitis in both elbows and right shoulder. After a long layoff, I have recently decided to resume MMA/Brazilian jiu-jitsu training. Aside from the usual aches and pains of being in poor shape, things were going fine until my 3rd week. Suddenly, I began to experience debilitating pain in the elbows and shoulder after training sessions. Over the next several days, the pain grew to the point that presently, I am only able to drill technique and MAYBE grapple for a single 6 minute session applying ice packs to both arms immediately following. I have noticed that if I "push it" to a second or third session, the tendonitis is more intense, and lasts longer with each recurring irritation.
So I have decided to see if Cissus will help me with this condition and hopefully I can provide some useful feedback for board members that may be trying to cope with similar nagging injuries.
From the text that Bobo posted, here are the "highlights" that grabbed my attention:
Although the bulk of the research on Cissus centers around bone healing, the possibility exists that Cissus may act to improve bone healing it may improve the healing rate of connective tissue in general, including tendons. If this is the case it would be of great benefit to bodybuilders and athletes.
The typical recommended daily dosage of Cissus extract is between 100 and 500 mg, depending on the concentration of the extract and the severity of symptoms. For the powder of the dried plant, the Ayurvedic texts recommend a dosage of 3 to 6 grams to accelerate fracture healing. Safety studies in rats showed no toxic effects at dosages as high as 2000 mg/kg of body weight. So not only is Cissus efficacious, it is also quite safe, in either the dried powder form or the commercially available extract
Cissus also possess analgesic properties on a mg per mg basis comparable to aspirin or anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen. The mechanism through which Cissus exerts its analgesic and anti-inflammatory properties has not been well characterized. It may act centrally, but the anti-inflammatory features suggest that it acts by preventing the conversion of arachidonic acid to inflammatory prostaglandins.
So basically, I'm looking for a supplement that is safe to take which:
A. Reduces pain and inflammation
B. Promotes more rapid healing of the tendons
I have received 195 x 600mg capsules of the Cissus Quadrangularis (found in cAMPHIBOLIC) from USPLabs. My first experience ordering from them was nothing short of excellent as I have noted in a previous post.
Dosing protocol will be slightly above the midrange outlined in the referenced article (3-6g daily) at 4.8g. I plan to take 4 caps AM and 4 caps PM (most likely 30 minutes before training to gauge the analgesic effect).
As my purpose is to provide the most helpful feedback possible, I will be taking no other supplements during this experiment and I will remain open to suggestions on dosage and timing to those more knowledgeable about this product than myself.
The only "X factor" I can think of offhand in this log will be my training. Initially, I will only be training jiu-jitsu/MMA 3 days per week. Training consists of approx. 1 hour of technique instruction and 4 "sets" of live grappling available at 5-6 minutes per session with a 2-3 minute rest between sets. Currently, I am only able to do technique drills and 1 "set" of grappling before the tendonitis sets in. My goal is to reach 4 "sets" 3 days per week. Once I have achieved that goal, I will look to add an additional training day and some weight training/ bodyweight conditioning.
I will begin tomorrow (Saturday Feb. 26th) with 4 caps and a 10:30am training session.
Wish me luck!
02-25-2005 04:28 PM
Good luck JS, ju jitsu is pretty harsh on the old forearm and wrist tendons. This should be interesting.
Not to suggest anything that would complicate your test but you might want to look into big doses of flax oil later on if the symptoms persist.
I found celery seed to be an excellent analgesic as well.
02-25-2005 07:42 PM
i dont know if you do any anatagonist training or not but ironmind.com has
plenty of equip designed specifically to train antagonist muscles..finger extensors and
wrist pronators. Doing pushups helps some people to if their triceps are really weak.
The Cissus really helps with the pain though. I stopped for a day and noticed it was masking
some "new" tweaked finger injuries... =) It may be a good idea to cease use a day or 2
after an intense workout to see if you have any new injuries (j/k--or not?)
02-26-2005 02:36 PM
Bioman and Supaman,
Thanks for looking in.
If I don't get any results with the cissus, I'll definitely be interested in upping my flax oil intake. The celery seed is interesting too. Seems like I remember reading somewhere on this board that it was beneficial for blood pressure control as well. Can't go wrong with that combination.
I haven't done any antagonist training up to this point. I've visited ironmind before, and I have the crush grippers #1 and #2. A strong grip is a fine thing to have in jiu-jitsu, (not as much as in rock climbing, though! ) so I'm looking forward to adding them to my training regimen when I get the tendonitis under control. I'm glad you mentioned the issue of cissus possibly "masking" injury. It's something I'm quite concerned about. I think I'll take your advice once I'm down the road a bit and see if I have a similar experience to yours.
Thanks again to both of you for your thoughtful input.
OK... Day 1 update:
I should mention quickly that I was previously grappling at every available (4-5 sessions per class) opportunity prior to the onset of the tendonitis. I have since cut that by AT LEAST half (1 or 2 sessions at most icing between sessions) prior to the start of this experiment.
Took 4 caps at 10:30AM (start of class) in hopes of receiving the bulk of any analgesic benefit prior to grappling session. After technique drills, my first session was 6 minutes at full speed. Elbows felt fine immediately after, but I sat out the next session and iced down. Next session was 6 minutes at half speed with a new student, and I felt good immediately afterward.
In the interest of science (and because I'm just not that bright in general... ) I decided to enjoy a third 6 minute session at full speed. Immediately following, I began to feel the familiar throb in both elbows. I was tempted to take the remaining dose immediately, but I decided to ride it out to see if I could feel any difference in the level of pain today. My experience with tendonitis is that the pain increases gradually (like slowly turning up the volume knob on a stereo) to a certain threshold of discomfort and then fades back down more slowly than it arrived. I anticipated maximum volume, but it never came. I was able to drive home right away (35 minutes to the house) and by the time I got home the pain was a mild inconvenience.
This is a sharp contrast to previous experience where I would have to ice down just to drive home from the dojo, and then continue icing at home for a couple of hours before the pain would subside. At this point, I attribute the difference to my reduced activity and icing regimen. I know that Supaman reported positive effects as early as Day 2, but I'm thinking that a single dose is just a bit too early to draw any conclusions. I do feel, however, that I now have a good reference point from which to begin this evaluation.
02-27-2005 03:49 PM
Great detail so far! Keep it up bro, I am interested not only for me, but for my injury prone workout partner and for my parents who are aching in their old age! Thank you bro, you are doing a big service to the board with this thread!
02-27-2005 08:44 PM
Maniak1027 - Thanks for the encouragement!
I am hoping that this little experiment will prove useful. It's a bit of luck that cAMPHIBOLIC and supaman's log "showed up" at the same time that I began having trouble with tendonitis.
I think it's an excellent opportunity to take cissus out for a test drive and see what she'll do!
Day 2 - Not much to report. It's Sunday, and I took FULL advantage of the opportunity to lay around the house and rest up. I'm feeling some of the usual aches and pains, but nothing more or less than I normally have. The only thing out of the ordinary that I can report is that last night while sleeping, I had 2 or 3 sharp pains in my right elbow. I really don't think it's anything to worry about, but I wanted to make a note of it just in case.
Oops! Almost forgot.... Took 4 caps at 9:30AM and 4 caps at 8PM.
Last edited by jsutter55; 02-27-2005 at 08:47 PM.
Reason: add dosage and time
03-01-2005 08:24 AM
Not much to report for Monday. Took 4 caps at 9:30AM and the other 4 at about 10PM. Noticed a bit of soreness in my hands/knuckles today, but other than that symptoms were very mild. My right shoulder has quieted down considerably, and I am looking forward to training days to get a stronger sense of how well the cissus performs vs. how much of my reduced symptoms might just be from time off.
For Tuesday night, I am toying with the idea of taking cissus immediately before AND immediately after training instead of splitting the dose across the entire day.
03-01-2005 10:46 PM
OK sports fans.... this just got interesting.
I decided to switch up the dosage per my last update by taking 4 caps at the start of training (7:30PM) and 4 caps immediately after (9PM). I participated in technique drills and 3 back-to-back grappling sessions (6min. each). I was actually going to attempt a 4th session, but there were an odd number of students left for the final session and I was "odd man out". So I found a spot to watch the final session where I could ice down and noticed that I had NO PAIN WHATSOEVER.
I took the remaining dose immediately after grappling according to plan and it's well over an hour later. Still no pain.
I'm not ready to completely discount the fact that I have reduced my training, and thereby alleviated some of the excessive strain on my tendons... but I'll admit that I am VERY surprised that I have NO pain.
I'll update tomorrow, but my next class is on Thursday. I'm planning to follow the same training and dosage protocol to see if I can reproduce these results.
Bottom line is this:
If I grapple full sessions on both Thursday and Saturday and still remain pain free.... I'll have a REAL difficult time maintaining any healthy skepticism about this product.
03-02-2005 04:39 PM
We have gotten wonderful feedback on Cissus. We strongly believe that Cissus is not only killing pain but heeling the injury. Really not the best idea to mask pain but Cissus kills pain and Heels which is currently unheard of in our industry!
I love you dosing protocol. I was at a wedding party after party and starting horse playing with a friend. I excuted a bueatiful double leg take down but instead of hurting my friend, I braced my a fall and jacked up my wrist.
On monday, I stayed out of class for the techinque session but once everyone started rolling. I had to be stuborn and get on the matt rolling with one hand. Hence, the next day my bicep on by good hand was in great pain that restricted my movement(So I strained the muscle and could not reach full extension without pain).
Yesterday, I took 4 cissus caps before training and was able to use my bad wrist with some pain but the next day my bicep was pain free and my wrist is healing considerably!
stay tuned...Love your log and Since BJJ changed my life, I have a new website comming next month that is all about training and nutrition in bjj/mma!
03-02-2005 08:58 PM
Originally Posted by USPLabs
I'll be the first one to stand up and cheer if cissus is healing my tendons.
I'm doing my best to remain objective, but of course I'm hopeful that cissus will turn out to be "all that". I'd love to see a natural supplement that outperforms many over-the-counter drugs. Ibuprophen did exactly SQUAT for my symptoms.
Always great to meet another kindred soul.
Originally Posted by USPLabs
BJJ has meant quite a lot to me, too. Please keep us posted on the progress of your site, and I'll be sure to visit as soon as you have it up and running.
Hmmm... double leg takedown at the wedding after-party?
I can see how that might happen.
DAY 5 - Not much to report. Some slight soreness in my left hand (middle and ring finger from my knuckles back to my wrist). Odd... and no idea why. Also some minor aches and pains that normally accompany training. Elbows feel GREAT... shoulders feel GREAT. 4 caps at 9:30AM and 4 caps at 8PM. Looking forward to tomorrow's report.
I have decided to split my dosage into AM/PM on non-training days and before/after grappling (both PM) on training days.
03-03-2005 08:27 AM
I didnt find it on the site... is this camphiblolic?
03-03-2005 10:15 AM
Maybe a pm?
Originally Posted by judge-mental
Cissus is just one of the main ingredients in cAMPHIBOLIC. Synergy/USPLabs has the capability to cap and send you just the Cissus by itself. That's what I did. You can probably send USPLabs a pm or send them an e-mail over at their website. If you have a free minute or two (and if you haven't already) check out Bobo's post a little further down about Cissus Quadrangularis.
I don't know what the availability is for Cissus, or what their pricing structure will be, but they made it happen for me. I have a hunch that they might offer Cissus as a stand alone product if the feedback remains positive.
On the other hand, if you were planning to try cAMPHIBOLIC, it is my understanding you will get more than enough Cissus to alleviate (and possibly heal...) tendonitis, plus you will get the additional benefit of the forskolin and other ingredients.
03-03-2005 10:24 AM
thanks! whats the comperable dose of camphibolic caps youre taking?
03-03-2005 11:51 AM
Should be plenty either way...
I'm taking Cissus only. The caps that USPLabs/Synergy sent me are 600mg (195 caps). I'm taking 8 per day for a total of 4.8g of Cissus per day.
Originally Posted by judge-mental
I arrived at that dosage from the article that Bobo posted which puts the effective "powder" dose at 3 to 6 grams to facilitate fracture healing. I wanted to target my dosage for the midrange and 4.8g was as close as I could get with 600mg caps.
As far as cAMPHIBOLIC goes, the formula is proprietary so we have no way of knowing how much Cissus is in there. USPLabs, in another thread, stated that the amount of Cissus contained in the recommended dose of cAMPHIBOLIC is more than sufficient to reach that level.
Hope that helped.
03-03-2005 11:09 PM
Day 6 update -
Well, all I can say is that anyone with nagging tendonitis should probably start paying closer attention to Cissus Quadrangularis. Today I took 4 caps immediately prior to and immediately following training (technique drills, 3 x 5 minute grappling "sets") and once again I am pain free. There is no pain in either elbow, and my shoulders feel just fine. I was debating throwing in an extra day of training tomorrow (Friday), but I've decided against it. I'm just going to rest tomorrow, train again on Saturday, and see how I'm feeling next week.
I am very pleasantly surprised with the lack of pain. I keep catching myself rotating my arms, elbows and shoulders in disbelief. As far as masking the symptoms go... I can only compare it in terms of ibuprophen or a similar analgesic. Once the medicine "wears off", the pain can return or you can at least feel some residual ache or stiffness (in my experience). There seems to be none of that with Cissus.
I'm happy about it, for sure... but I'm just... surprised. I hoped that it would work, but I don't think I expected it to be this soon or this dramatic. I'll continue to report my experience over the next couple of weeks, but at this point (as I mentioned before) I think those that are tempted to give this product a try really have nothing to lose.
OK... nothing to lose except some nagging pain.
03-04-2005 11:55 PM
Day 7 - Again, nothing much to report. Days off from training were relatively pain free even when my tendonitis flare ups were at their worst. So I'm not surprised that I feel good when I have days off. I'll train all available sessions tomorrow and if things are still going well into next week I may even consider adding a Friday session just to mix things up.
Dosage was 4 caps 10AM and 4 caps 9:30PM.
Elbows and shoulders feeling just fine. One item that might be worth mentioning... In one of my previous posts I pointed out that I have sore knuckles and a strained feeling on the back of my left hand. It has remained sore for the last few days. I really don't remember injuring it, but little knocks (and even some that are not so little) tend to be ignored when scrambling to attack or defend in grappling. My reason for bringing this up? I don't seem to be enjoying any analgesic effect on this particular injury which leads me to wonder if Cissus might not be effective for some impact injuries or possibly even strained/arthritic joints. I'm not making any REAL judgment one way or another... just wondering out loud.
Works like crazy on elbow tendonitis though!
03-05-2005 02:42 PM
Day 8 - 2 caps at 10:30 immediately before technique drills. Again today there were an odd number of students, so I did technique drills with two people instead of just one. I decided to "go for it" today, and I ended up grappling 5 times (5 minutes each set). I felt good the entire time, and took the other 4 caps immediately after class. Driving home I experienced just the slightest hint of tendonitis. If my previous level of pain was a 10, then this was a 1-1.5 at most. It had subsided completely by the time I got back home (approx. 30 min. later).
At this point, I am more than impressed with the results I've gotten from Cissus. In eight days, my condition has improved so dramatically that it's literally hard to believe. I hoped Cissus would work, but this is well beyond my expectations. I do think there are a couple of points to illustrate just for the sake of being thorough, and they are:
1. I did not suffer from CHRONIC tendonitis before this experiment began. It was definitely acute, and brought on by a sudden increased workload from jiu-jitsu/MMA training.
2. I have other pains in my body (knee, left hand, right hip) that seem to be unaffected by Cissus. At this point, anyway. So perhaps there are certain types of injuries that it will provide benefit for, and some that it will not.
3. After experiencing just the slightest symptoms following class today, I am inclined to believe that even with the assistance of Cissus you can still "overdo it". Increasing your workload too soon or reaching beyond what you were previously capable of may well negate the positive effects of Cissus.
4. This experiment is not over. I have enough caps for another 3 weeks, and I will continue to update so the abscence of symptoms at 1 week doesn't mean that I'm home free. There's a lot of training to be done before the month is up.
With all of that being said, at this point I am ready to give Cissus credit where credit is due. Anyone that is on the fence about giving this a product a try should come on down. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised, if not completely amazed as I am.
03-06-2005 02:57 PM
jsutter55 vbmenu_register("postmenu_2558 63", true);
I think it is specific to tendon injuries as of today.
03-06-2005 11:23 PM
Day 9 - Today was a typical day off. Being pain free on my "off days" seems to be the norm so far with Cissus. Every now and then (maybe once every 2-4 hours) I'll get what I can only describe as a "twinge" of pain in my elbow, forearm, or bicep. It only lasts for a second, and disappears immediately. No schedule or order of occurrence that I can discern, and the pain is only a 2 or 3 on a scale of 1-10. Just making a note here in case it should become relevant later.
Since there is virtually nothing to report on days that I do not train... I may begin updating this log only on Tuesday, Thursday, and Saturday unless something out of the ordinary happens on an off day. Not 100% certain yet and I will be sure to state that clearly if I decide to go that route.
4 caps 11AM and 4 caps 9:30PM
All is well.
03-07-2005 04:14 PM
I am aware if you used anabolic substances that are not legal or even good prohormones. Do you by any chance feel like "flexing" while of cissus. Do you feel anabolic and have the urge to flex? Do you feel stronger when you roll?
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