Can A Rep Shed Some Light...

Koz

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On this study:

h t t p ://diabetes.diabetesjournals.org/content/early/2010/05/26/db10-0207.abstract

(spaces added to allow me to post link)

berberine impairs muscle metabolism by two novel mechanisms...not only stimulated protein degradation but also suppressed protein synthesis, causing muscle atrophy.

It would seem to me that someone using AP on a bulk, then, would not only be gaining fat - as they are in a caloric surplus - but also losing muscle. Which is exactly the opposite of the goal (and the product's claims)
 

hardknock

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bump,

This is something that I looked into a few months ago and was wondering the same thing.
 
crazyfool405

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i havent seen the full study may be explained more with doses used ect.
 

Koz

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On the USP boards, MulletSoldier replied with this:

Great question!

I unfortunately do not have access to this full journal, so my commentary will be mostly speculative at this time. This being said, I will address the comments as best as possible.

As we see from the abstract, it appears that berberine extract-induced decreased muscle protein synthesis and increased muscle protein degradation is dependent on an increased expression of both atrogin-1, a key proteolytic gene present in a variety of catabolic states, and eIF3-f, a key component of the mTOR activation pathway. At first blush, this obviously appears to be indefensibly negative, as the atrogin-1 induction was not dependent upon the Atk/PI3K transcription pathway, and is thus entirely the result of berberine.

With that being said, we need to remember an important fact: these were diabetic mice. Insulin resistance is often associated with an increased in the activity of the ubiquitin-proteasome proteolytic pathway, and in particular, the expression of atrogin-1 to promote muscle atrophy. The mechanisms here are complex, but for a reference, the expression of both atrogin-1 and atrogin-1 transcription promoters have been shown to be increased by 15 fold in insulin resistant states.


Still a bit unnerving though...
 
matthew76

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Article or not, AP is hands down one of my favorite supplements for lean bulk, recomp, and cutting. Fasted cardio on AP helps in muscle sparring from my experience. I am trying to obtain the full-text.; although, like mullet stated, this was done with diabetic mice. Interested in duscussion, of course.
 
crazyfool405

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On the USP boards, MulletSoldier replied with this:

Great question!

I unfortunately do not have access to this full journal, so my commentary will be mostly speculative at this time. This being said, I will address the comments as best as possible.

As we see from the abstract, it appears that berberine extract-induced decreased muscle protein synthesis and increased muscle protein degradation is dependent on an increased expression of both atrogin-1, a key proteolytic gene present in a variety of catabolic states, and eIF3-f, a key component of the mTOR activation pathway. At first blush, this obviously appears to be indefensibly negative, as the atrogin-1 induction was not dependent upon the Atk/PI3K transcription pathway, and is thus entirely the result of berberine.

With that being said, we need to remember an important fact: these were diabetic mice. Insulin resistance is often associated with an increased in the activity of the ubiquitin-proteasome proteolytic pathway, and in particular, the expression of atrogin-1 to promote muscle atrophy. The mechanisms here are complex, but for a reference, the expression of both atrogin-1 and atrogin-1 transcription promoters have been shown to be increased by 15 fold in insulin resistant states.


Still a bit unnerving though...
i think it was answered quite well,

once he sees the full article, im sure there will be more input to the question.
 
borobulker

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On the USP boards, MulletSoldier replied with this:

Great question!

I unfortunately do not have access to this full journal, so my commentary will be mostly speculative at this time. This being said, I will address the comments as best as possible.

As we see from the abstract, it appears that berberine extract-induced decreased muscle protein synthesis and increased muscle protein degradation is dependent on an increased expression of both atrogin-1, a key proteolytic gene present in a variety of catabolic states, and eIF3-f, a key component of the mTOR activation pathway. At first blush, this obviously appears to be indefensibly negative, as the atrogin-1 induction was not dependent upon the Atk/PI3K transcription pathway, and is thus entirely the result of berberine.

With that being said, we need to remember an important fact: these were diabetic mice. Insulin resistance is often associated with an increased in the activity of the ubiquitin-proteasome proteolytic pathway, and in particular, the expression of atrogin-1 to promote muscle atrophy. The mechanisms here are complex, but for a reference, the expression of both atrogin-1 and atrogin-1 transcription promoters have been shown to be increased by 15 fold in insulin resistant states.


Still a bit unnerving though...
thank you for posting this! Mullet answered this yesterday.
 

Koz

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I think in the future I may simply reserve AP and similar berberine supps for cuts and recomps when caloric intake is maintenance or less. Though, similar to Matthew, I have found them very useful for fat loss on fasted cardio days.
 
crazyfool405

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I think in the future I may simply reserve AP and similar berberine supps for cuts and recomps when caloric intake is maintenance or less. Though, similar to Matthew, I have found them very useful for fat loss on fasted cardio days.
you know now that i think about it,

a lot of diabetic supplements sometime dont show the same effect on non diabetics, there fore, we may not have an increases expression of the gene, and since we dont the drop may be very little if not hardly significant in trained healthy people..
 

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