Super CissusRX within PCT

Colin

Board Sponsor
I have some SuperCissusRX on hand which I am considering using after my current oxandrolone (60mg ED) cycle is completed,in order to offset the cortisol spike coming off of an AAS assisted cut.

What I would like to know is just how potent 800mg of Super CissusRX is WRT cortisol manipulation e.g. is it comparable in terms of efficacy with 7-keto,7-OXO and 7-OH?
 
Bump....should I buy a 7-keto type supp in its place and unload the cissus on someone else?
 
Come on now,not a single USP rep is willing to address the potential role of cissus as an aid in staving off heightened cortisol levels stemming from either AAS or PH usage (and thus fat rebound).???

It's been established that 7-keto can accomplish this,is this true of USP's Super CixxusRX as well.I'd like more than a "yes,it lowers cortisol signifigantly,bla bla misc. qoute the writeup" Dexterium sort of reply.

I apologize if my tone seems harsh but if an Avant supp was being put to the task I would stand up ASAP.I would think Mullet or StrategicMove,whouldn't mind fielding this query.

If it is in fact on par with 7-OXO/7-keto WRT lowering of systematic cortisol ,I'd be inclined to buy more and use it regularly as part of any PCT protocol I embark on in the future.
 
TheUnlikelyToad said:
Use Relora, PS and 7-OH instead... much better options.
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Thanks for the tips but I'm trying to find out the potency of cissus's cortisol reduction properties as I alerady have purchased a good amount of it.

Off topic but seriously man,your avatar is impressive.Your physique has improved a lot since I saw pics of you over on M&M a couple years back.Looks like you gained around 10-15 pounds LBM and dropped pretty much all of your b/f.Nice Work.

You're looking a lot better than I am and I've ran a couple test,anavar and havoc cycles since you last posted pics :insert sad panda emoticon right here:




Regarding 7-OH and the like,I'd rather not put out the money for more supps ATM as I just bought my first house and my money is stretched thin as it is.

The thing of it is though that I have 2 bottles (left out of 4) of bulk Super Cissus RX which I have pretty much no other use for other than any effect they may have on lowering cortisol.I had hoped that using cissuss over an extended period of time would help with repair of connective tissue but I didn't get any improvement whatsoever so I dropped it after 2 months of 1600mg twice ED on an empty stomach (AM+PM).

Of course a good percentage of people get a lot of full or near/full recovery from injuries via cissus,I'm not slamming the product itself.I would think that USP Labs reps wouldn;t mind helping out with some advice here considering the following

Cissus does have a practical e.g. marketable application to PH/AAS users via staving off fat rebound from high cort levels as no matter what androgen one takes cort levels shoot up when the PH/AAS is dropped.Joint pain is also more likely to be an issue at this time,if coming off of something like deca,test or var or their PH derivitive versions.fat gain is ALWAYS an issue after a cycle is completed due to the heightened cortisol so cissus could kill two birds with one stone.Cissus would also further aid PCT as far as helping to retore test ,the same line of thought involved with forskolin usage PCT could be applied here.My primary concern is how potent cisus is WRT the lowering of cortisol,this isn't a loaded question nor should it be difficult for USPLabs to address.

Not only that,I've bought several of their other supps over the years as well;3-4 bottles of C2 and and 3-4 bottles of their cAMPhobolic.I've went so far as to reccommend both of these supps on message boards for nootropic and fat loss effects,a little courtesy on USPLAB's part would be nice.

i repsect Mullet and Strategic Move's opions a good deal,they obviously know their ****,speaking bluntly.I only know of Dexterium through his presence on M&M where he seems to qoute USP's ad copy verbatim or defer questions to Mullet.

USPLabs has nothing to offer here?
 
It's cortisol lowering properties have been blown out of proportion due it's marketing, it is USPlabs after all. ;)

I've seen where mullet as touched on it, but in every response there has never been a definitive answer as to what degree.

At this point it sounds as though you have nothing to lose. I've gone as as high as 8 caps a day (6 grams) in divided doses to reap an anabolic / anti-cort response.
 
7-OH, 7-KETO and other DHEA derivatives are systemic Cortisol inhibitors, primarily by inhibiting key enzymatic conversions of Glucocorticoid derivatives (i.e., selective inhibition of 11B-HSD1, or second level enzymes such as 3B-HSD and so on).

Cissus, on the other hand, operates like A.A.S., in its anti-Glucocorticoidal action: Via competitive receptor inhibition. It is this receptor inhibition (and also attenuation of pro-inflammatory Cytokines) which cause Cissus' reparative action on bone tissue.

Now, in respects to a quantitative answer in an environment of heightened Cortisol, specifically on muscle tissue, such an answer does not exist (unfortunately). The research on Cissus Q., focuses exclusively on managing metabolic syndrome (not USP Labs' concern), bone-repair, and its anti-oxidant/microbial action (which eventually leads back to reparative action on bone via pro-inflammatory inhibition, attenuation of lipid peroxidase and DNA fragmentation and so forth). I am inclined to say it is substantial, due to the unwieldy success of Cissus Q., extracts in reversing Cortisone-induced bone fracture in clinical trials, but that is conjecture.

I would definitively say, though, that the combination of a DHEA-derivative and Cissus Q., would not be detrimental; the combination of a receptor-specific and systemic anti-Glucocorticoid can only serve to be beneficial.
 
Mullet has nicely summarized the salient points. An equivalent anti-glucocorticoid action of 800mg SuperCissus Rx in terms of 7-keto,7-OXO and 7-OH can only be speculatively determined. Even though some of these DHEA derivatives share cortisol-inhibition and non-cortisol-related fat-burning (7-Keto essentially via raising resting metabolic rate, and cissus via lipase and amylase inhibition) properties with cissus, cissus additionally delivers anti-inflammatory/opoid-like analgesic action via COX-inhibition without halting protein synthesis (unlike NSAIDs), not mention its anti-oxidant and anti-bacterial activities, on top of the higher collagen turnover, bone re-modelling, and maintenance of ligament and tendon integrity. So, cissus appears to provide an array of benefits on top of its anti-catabolic and anti-glucocorticoidal action. Some users take cissus stand-alone; some others stack it with the DHEA metabolites mentioned earlier (as Mullet also stated), or even with other cortisol-fighting compounds such as phosphatidylserine, Relora, and so on. No need to unload your cissus, Colin! :)
 
TheUnlikelyToad said:
It's cortisol lowering properties have been blown out of proportion due it's marketing, it is USPlabs after all. ;)

I've seen where mullet as touched on it, but in every response there has never been a definitive answer as to what degree.

At this point it sounds as though you have nothing to lose. I've gone as as high as 8 caps a day (6 grams) in divided doses to reap an anabolic / anti-cort response.
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We do not focus much on cortisol with Cissus but nutrient delivery to injuries.

The cortisol aspect is from forum discussions not USP related.
 
Mulletsoldier said:
I have seen certain studies that suggest Cissus directly inhibits the AA pathway but, I am not certain!
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that is true, ive read it also i may have some study on it, id have to dig it up

on another note,

i was taking bulk cissus (dont remember the brand but was discontinued) post workout while on cycle, for 7 weeks, bones felt great definetly felt good while one it , however when i stopped it i did put on a good 3-4 pounds, in 4 weeks leading me to believe it did inhibit the cox enzyme necessary for prostoglandin formation and muscle growth.

do you have a study that shows that?
 
crazyfool405 said:
that is true, ive read it also i may have some study on it, id have to dig it up

on another note,

i was taking bulk cissus (dont remember the brand but was discontinued) post workout while on cycle, for 7 weeks, bones felt great definetly felt good while one it , however when i stopped it i did put on a good 3-4 pounds, in 4 weeks leading me to believe it did inhibit the cox enzyme necessary for prostoglandin formation and muscle growth.

do you have a study that shows that?
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At the moment, we do not know whether or not COX inhibition is the key analgesic mechanism of Cissus Q., Even then, it would depend on whether COX-II or COX-I was being inhibited - COX-II inhibitors do not actually lower serum COX levels, and therefore are not as implicated in attenuating muscle growth via the AA pathway! This is why people over-exaggerate the ability of COX-II specific inhibitors to attenuate muscle growth!

While COX inhibition is a postulate, it is not definitive enough to say that is what caused your 'Post-Cissus' gains!
 
TheUnlikelyToad said:
Do you believe Cissus to be a welcome addition to an X-Factor cycle?

From what I've read, thoughts / feedback appears split.
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To the extent that cissus is an anti-oxidant and an anti-inflammatory, its addition to ab X-Factor cycle may not be a "welcome addition". As you are aware, there are essentially three pathways in the arachidonic-acid synthesis. The first is its conversion by the COX-1 (cyclooxygenase-1) enzyme into Thromboxane A2, leading to abnormal platelet aggregation. The second is its conversion by the COX-2 enzyme into Prostaglandin E2, leading to inflammation and compromising of joint integrity. The third is its conversion by 5-LOX (5-Lipoxygenase) into Leukotriene B4, also leading to inflammation and joint issues. Now, cissus has been severally categorized as a COX-2 inhibitor. This means that stacking it with X-Factor may compromise the intended inflammatory effects of X-Factor. This result may be more likely, if the cissus product is standardized such that most of the natural constituents are available in the final product.
 
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