homebrew transdermal joint gel

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    homebrew transdermal joint gel


    Just mixed up my first batch of a homebrew transdermal joint gel. The formula for the carrier is:

    50% Aloe (99.3 % Pure)
    20% Water
    10% PG
    10% Peppermint Oil
    10% IPM
    Carbomer 934 and Triethanolamine to desired consistency

    The solutes comprise of:

    44.4% MSM
    16.6% Glucosamine Sulfate
    16.6% N-Acetyl Glucosamine
    22.2% Chondroitin Sulfate

    Glucosamine Sulfate and Chondroitin sulfate have relatively poor bioavailability (26% and 13% respectively). I chose the ingredients in the carrier to provide a balance between delivering the solutes to the targeted deep joint tissue and increasing plasma blood solute concentrations by bypassing first pass metabolism. In addition to having poor bioavailability, glucosamine sulfate also has a very short half life in the bloodstream. In most of the clinical cases I found, blood concentrations (after oral administration) peaked between 1.1 and 2 hours after ingestion and then fell off quickly. While there is 50% less glucosamine in n-acetyl glucosamine as compared to glucosamine sulfate, the half life is much longer. Studies have shown that after oral administration of n-acetyl glucosamine, blood plasma levels remained high as long as 48 hours after ingestion. N-acetyl glucosamine has another unique benefit in that like chondroitin it can inhibit the release of the leukocyte-elastase enzyme, thus reducing cartilage degradation.

    I chose to include MSM as a solute due to its natural anti-inflammatory properties. MSM is a derivative of DMSO. I found that my joints ached much less during my last couple homebrew cycles. I can only assume it was the addition of the DMSO that helped.

    My goal was to create a carrier that would allow me to apply approximately 1000 mgs of MSM, 750 mgs of glucosamine and 500 mgs of chondroitin a day. At a concentration of 50 mgs/mL, this would equate to a volume of 45 mL/day. If applied twice per day, this volume was not practical. There simply is not enough skin around the joints I needed to target. Thus, I mixed the solutes in the carrier at 100 mgs/mL. While this concentration may seem high, I found that MSM, glucosamine and chondroitin were all very soluble. In addition, after application, there is no sign of the solutes on the skin. They appear to have absorbed completely.

    At 31 years old, my joints have been hacked. Between professional Kick-Boxing and Skiing, my shoulder, elbow and knees are always aching. I underwent ACL (Knee) replacement surgery in May and I have been unable to lift more than a 10 RM weight on bench due to my shoulder injuries. I am constantly looking for something that may help. I will report the results.

    BTW, my sinuses are also very clear from the peppermint oil.

  2. Brewing Anabolic Minds
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    This is what the forum is all about!  Good post bros...karma for you

    Chemo
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    Sounds awesome bro. Im curious as to why you chose the msm over just straight dmso. I thought the dmso had equal anti-inflammatory action as its derivative msm. If this is so the questoin becomes does the msm have the skin penetrating power of dmso? Would like to know your throught process and reasoning....
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    Bow I remember you talking about this awhile back. Glad to see your finally going through with it. Please keep us updated on how it goes. The formular is great as well as the dosages for the active ingredients.

    TMack: While DMSO is a great carrier/solvent to use to get hormones into the bloodstream. With this particular homebrew blood stream delivery is not what we are aiming for. MSM is a natural derivative of DMSO and just as DMSO it posses great joint pain relieving property just without the penetration properties. So it should work well.

     
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    I see what your saying diablo, but even with the ingredients listed its going to get absorbed by the blood stream no? Furthermore, wouldnt one want this to actually happen. Obviously the solvents arent going to be able to get to the joints any other way without going through the bloodstream. Site application would make it relevant as the joints closest to the application site would get first crack at the ingredients. (Kind of the like the principle behind site injections) So wouldnt you want to use dmso to make sure your gettin as much of the solvent in there as possible? I might be slightly confused, please elaborate on your former point if my arguments do not make sense. Thanks bro.
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    BDC, when you going to start selling this as a premixed product?
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    do we know how well it works yet?
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    Originally posted by TMack40
    I see what your saying diablo, but even with the ingredients listed its going to get absorbed by the blood stream no? Furthermore, wouldnt one want this to actually happen. Obviously the solvents arent going to be able to get to the joints any other way without going through the bloodstream. Site application would make it relevant as the joints closest to the application site would get first crack at the ingredients. (Kind of the like the principle behind site injections) So wouldnt you want to use dmso to make sure your gettin as much of the solvent in there as possible? I might be slightly confused, please elaborate on your former point if my arguments do not make sense. Thanks bro.
    I want the ingredients to be absorbed in the bloodstream, but slowly and gradually. My rationale for this is twofold. First, I want a time released formula. Second, glucosamine has a very short half life in the blood. If we can deliver the glucosamine in a time released fashion, we will extend the steady state flux of glucosamine in your circulatory system. Hence the addition of the 10% IPM. However, first I want to deliver the actives to the deep tissue I am trying to target. IPM is not nearly as strong of a penetration enhancer as DMSO. We know that a combination of aloe and menthol is effective at penetrating and holding solutes in deep tissue. The IPM should then slowly deliver the solutes from the deep tissue to the circulatory system. DMSO would speed the solutes directly past the targeted joint tissue. This is the compromise between delivering to deep tissue and delivering to blood that I spoke of when designing the carrier.


    Originally posted by BigBenn
    do we know how well it works yet?
    In terms of short term joint pain, it works great. I noticed that if I apply to problematic joints immediately before working out, the typical discomfort is reduced significantly. I can not yet speculate regarding the long term effects as I have only been applying the gel for a couple of days now.
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    That def makes a lot of sense. Youve really done your reasearch on this bro, good job! Ive had an achy shoulder for years; i may just have to brew up a batch. Keep us posted on results. Thanks and good luck!
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    This is a great thread. Please post results ASAP and let us know. I too would like to give this a go.
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    my hat off to you bow. great and informative thread. i also would like to hear the results, and possibly make me a bottle for my pains and joints.
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    Its been a few months now since I started this experiment, so I figured I would post the results.

    I have continued with the protocol described above since December with one exception. I tapered back the dosage to about 15 ml/day (just a matter of convenience).

    My shoulder feels great. The range of motion is back to 100%. There are still some movements that are bothersome, but nowhere near the discomfort I had prior to December. The best part is that I can actually perform a 1RM max on bench again without screaming like a banshee. My knee also feels very good, although I dont consider it that great of a metric being that it has been cut on.

    I have not taken any other OTC or prescription meds since beginning the experiment. I truly believe that this transdermal does work very well for damaged joints. I went from barely being able to perform a 10RM bench to a 1RM bench without pain in less than four months. Considering that I dealt with severe joint discomfort for over a year, this was a dramatic improvement.

    Id be curious to see if anyone else with joint pain experiences the same results.
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    I was thinking of making a homebrew transdermal for joints but I want to incorporate emu oil and menthol in the gel. Any ideas?????
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    Originally posted by he_hate_me
    I was thinking of making a homebrew transdermal for joints but I want to incorporate emu oil and menthol in the gel. Any ideas?????

    Peppermint oil contains 50-78% methanol. The active ingredient in emu oil is oleic acid. Oleic acid is known as being effective at disrupting the stratum corneum lipid membrane. Thus, oleic acid should also work well as a shallow tissue penetration enhancer. This should work well. Keep us posted on your results.
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    Originally posted by bow



    Peppermint oil contains 50-78% methanol. The active ingredient in emu oil is oleic acid. Oleic acid is known as being effective at disrupting the stratum corneum lipid membrane. Thus, oleic acid should also work well as a shallow tissue penetration enhancer. This should work well. Keep us posted on your results.
    The reason I was thinking of using menthol insetead of peppermint oil was cuz I want menthol to be atleast 12-13% of the gel and emu oil to be about 7%. So how would you suggest I should tweak the other ingredients to get the desired homebrew.
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    I would run 60% aloe and 20% water for the remainder of the solvent solution. Mix your solutes at 100 mgs/ml. Go for approx 1000 mgs of MSM, 750 mgs of glucosamine and 500 mgs of chondroitin a day.
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    Originally posted by bow
    I would run 60% aloe and 20% water for the remainder of the solvent solution. Mix your solutes at 100 mgs/ml. Go for approx 1000 mgs of MSM, 750 mgs of glucosamine and 500 mgs of chondroitin a day.
    So no IPM or PG?
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    Originally posted by he_hate_me


    So no IPM or PG?
    Not with the emu oil. The purpose of the IPM is to disrupt the stratum corneum and provide slow but stead absorption to the circulatory system. Too high of a concentration of penetration enhancers and you are going to speed the solutes right past the target tissue. The emu oil (via the oleic acid) should be ample. I might increase the concentration of the emu oil by 5-10% and decrease the aloe %.
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    Originally posted by bow


    Not with the emu oil. The purpose of the IPM is to disrupt the stratum corneum and provide slow but stead absorption to the circulatory system. Too high of a concentration of penetration enhancers and you are going to speed the solutes right past the target tissue. The emu oil (via the oleic acid) should be ample. I might increase the concentration of the emu oil by 5-10% and decrease the aloe %.
    ok sounds good, but how about PG as it will used for consistency.
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    In Reference to Glucosamine Solution


    This is what I came up with for a glucosamine sterile solution, but I may have to try a transdermal without the menthol ( can't tolerate it), but anyway no responses to my post as of yet. This is what I came up with posted below, but the emu oil may be an option if no replies to my post. I just wish I could get some comments in reference to my post.


    Ok, This is the best I can figure a recipe in development for a sterile glucosamine solution.

    Step 1
    Use Cottonseed Oil, Peg 400, BA 3%, likely BB, and powder.

    First boil water in sauce pan to use at 212 F degrees for 10 minutes. Empty water out of pan, and add 52 ml oil to sauce pan. At slow heat, bring oil to 212 F degrees, maintain for 5 minutes. Perhaps use syringe and transfer oil to pre-sterilized vial using sterial filter on the syringe and set aside. This should be sterile oil in the vial if I understand correctly.

    Step 2
    In a open 100 ml vial, put in 15 grams of glucosamine powder, and add 2 ml or 200 cc of BA to the powder, add 6 ml of Peg 400, and likely some BB. Transfer some warm oil if need be. Close the vial with a lid, and roll/ shake vial to attempt to dissolve the powder. If powder dissolves, filter through a coffee filter once or twice, and place inside a new open vial.

    Step 3
    Take the dissolved powder mix, and draw up into a syringe, and sterial filter the powder solution into the 100 ml vial containing the oil using a syringe and a sterile filter on the syringe.


    Now if I understand all that I have read, I should have a sterile solution of 60ml inside a pre-sterilized 100 ml vial.
    ============================== ===============


    For those that know how to do this process, did I end up with a sterile soultion? If not, what did i do wrong, or what do you think may be a potential problem with the solution?


    Regards,
    CNN
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    Sorry CNN. Wish I could help, but my conversion to injectible knowledge is limited. You might try Dazed.
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    [QUOTE]Originally posted by bow
    [B]Just mixed up my first batch of a homebrew transdermal joint gel. The formula for the carrier is:

    50% Aloe (99.3 % Pure)
    20% Water
    10% PG
    10% Peppermint Oil
    10% IPM
    Carbomer 934 and Triethanolamine to desired consistency

    The solutes comprise of:
    44.4% MSM
    16.6% Glucosamine Sulfate
    16.6% N-Acetyl Glucosamine
    22.2% Chondroitin Sulfate
    ============================== ============================== ============================== ==

    HI Bow,


    I found your recipe for a transdermal joint gel to peek my interest
    I too suffer from joint pains, and have tried Glucosamine, Chrondroiton, and MSM orally, and I believe there is some extra relief. However, they don't seem to set with my intestines very well, so I have been looking for an alternative way to get the ingrediants in my system hopefully without intestinal disturbance.

    Your recipe was interesting, but for me menthol does not set well with my skin even at low concentrations, so I picked up on the other person's suggestion of Emu oil, and came up with the following after reading all the posts, and was curious as to what your opinion was of the following recipe.

    52% Aloe
    25% Water
    20& Emu oil
    3% DSMO
    Carbomer 934 and Triethanolamine to desired consistency

    USE MSM, Glucosamine & Chondroitin at a desired range similar to yours.

    Although I would like some local effect, I have multiple joint trouble, and would like the ingrediants to get absorbed into the blood stream as well, and take on a systemic effect. However, something that might concern me would be too much absorbtion of some ingrediants into the blood stream, mainly the Carbomer 934 and Triethanolamine.

    What are your thoughts, or suggestions you might have regarding this recipe? Might I be better off trying to do it as a liquid rather than a gel and drop the Carbomer 934 and Triethanolamine? Thanks for any suggestions.


    Regards,
    On1Mission
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    I am personally skeptical of using DMSO as a penetration enhancer for a local delivery. DMSO it not only effective at disrupting the lipid membrane (like Oleic Acid and IPM) but it also interacts with the intercellular proteins. My concern is that any amount of DMSO is going to speed the actives past the target tissue. Will it still work effectively for systematic delivery, probably. But I would skip it. You will get the desired systematic effect and local delivery without the addition of DMSO. Otherwise, your choice of solvents and ratios look good.

    Dont worry about the carbomer or triethanolamine. They are both non-toxic. However, I have read studies on pubmed showing that they may hinder absorption slightly. This would follow being that absorption is a function of viscosity, and the purpose of those two ingredients is to increase viscosity. So, if you dont mind the inconvenience of a liquid, it may actually be more effective.

    Good luck.
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    Thumbs up


    Bow,

    Thanks for the comments. I appreciate it.


    Reagrds,
    On1Mission
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    Question


    Say Bow,

    Would you mind sharing what brand(s) of the following products you used, and perhaps where you bought them? There are so many brands out there claiming to have the best. I finally settled on Cardinal Nutrition for the MSM. You can PM if you wish. By the way, how many days does your transdermal gel last?


    MSM
    Glucosamine Sulfate
    N-Acetyl Glucosamine
    Chondroitin Sulfate
    Aloe vera


    Regards,
    On1Mission
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    Originally posted by bow
    Its been a few months now since I started this experiment, so I figured I would post the results.

    I have continued with the protocol described above since December with one exception. I tapered back the dosage to about 15 ml/day (just a matter of convenience).

    My shoulder feels great. The range of motion is back to 100%. There are still some movements that are bothersome, but nowhere near the discomfort I had prior to December. The best part is that I can actually perform a 1RM max on bench again without screaming like a banshee. My knee also feels very good, although I dont consider it that great of a metric being that it has been cut on.

    I have not taken any other OTC or prescription meds since beginning the experiment. I truly believe that this transdermal does work very well for damaged joints. I went from barely being able to perform a 10RM bench to a 1RM bench without pain in less than four months. Considering that I dealt with severe joint discomfort for over a year, this was a dramatic improvement.

    Id be curious to see if anyone else with joint pain experiences the same results.
    Awesome! I'm glad your pain has subsided. I'm definitely going to have to try this formula. Thanks alot for the info man, it's appreciated...
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    Originally posted by On1Mission
    Say Bow,

    Would you mind sharing what brand(s) of the following products you used, and perhaps where you bought them? There are so many brands out there claiming to have the best. I finally settled on Cardinal Nutrition for the MSM. You can PM if you wish. By the way, how many days does your transdermal gel last?


    MSM
    Glucosamine Sulfate
    N-Acetyl Glucosamine
    Chondroitin Sulfate
    Aloe vera

    The Glucosamine Sulfate, MSM, N-Acetyl Glucosamine and Chondroitin are all from Beyond A Century. I got the Aloe Vera Gell at a local health food store, its is manufactured by Herbal Authority.

    A 240 mL batch lasts about 10-15 days.
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    Originally posted by bow



    The Glucosamine Sulfate, MSM, N-Acetyl Glucosamine and Chondroitin are all from Beyond A Century. I got the Aloe Vera Gell at a local health food store, its is manufactured by Herbal Authority.

    A 240 mL batch lasts about 10-15 days.
    hey I was curious how much you spend, oh lets say, per 240mL batch.
    my father has been training his whole life and goes on mountain bike trips almost every weekend. He was on his way to becoming a professional soccer player while he was in his early 20's, but he got hit by a truck and it messed up his legs bad (almost killed him). So for the past 20 years he has had constant joint pain in his shoulders and knees. He has to get surgerys to repair these things almost yearly, as hes not gonna stop lifting and riding.

    I was reading this thread and thought "damn" this would be an excellent recipe to put under the Christmas tree (If it works I would try and hook him up year round if I can afford it ).

    So what are your opinions of this formula now? is it cost effective and worth the money being put in?

    BTW he hasnt came across anything prescription or otherwise that doesnt make him drowsy or even works.
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    Prescription wise, meds for pain will make most drowsy or even feel just plain weird. However, with continued use drowsiness and other funny feeling side effects will diminish.

    The downside is becoming physically or mentally dependent on narcotics.
    For continued use of a narcotic substance, patients have been being referred to Pain management specialist over the last three to perhaps ten years.

    I myself have been prone to a nerve irritation since High School after a genital hernia repair. In 1993, a surgeon suspected an irritated nerve and sent me to a Pain management specialist. After an hour or so of questions and answers, I was told my past history of symptoms fit the profile for an irritated nerve.

    A nerve block was the chosen method of treatment consisting of a cortisone derivitive and an anesthetic by injection. After two weeks the pain was totally gone. I couldn't believe a medical treatment option existed. I was able to go about six years before needing another nerve block. Thus, since 1993 I have had a total of 3 nerve blocks done, and it has worked out quite well for me. Oral pain killers did nothing for my problem.

    Anyway, a nerve block may be a possible effective option for your dad, but I will say that a nerve block would not likely be as effective if your dad continues to put strain on the affected areas. Then again, it may work and keep the pain down for several months despite the physical activity, but doctors are more cautious about injecting a cortisone type medication into joints, but if it was needed only once a year, may be no problem.

    Got off the main track of what is usually discussed, but I thought I'd throw this in as a possible effective option.


    Regards,
    On1Mission
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    Originally posted by On1Mission
    Prescription wise, meds for pain will make most drowsy or even feel just plain weird. However, with continued use drowsiness and other funny feeling side effects will diminish.

    The downside is becoming physically or mentally dependent on narcotics.
    For continued use of a narcotic substance, patients have been being referred to Pain management specialist over the last three to perhaps ten years.

    I myself have been prone to a nerve irritation since High School after a genital hernia repair. In 1993, a surgeon suspected an irritated nerve and sent me to a Pain management specialist. After an hour or so of questions and answers, I was told my past history of symptoms fit the profile for an irritated nerve.

    A nerve block was the chosen method of treatment consisting of a cortisone derivitive and an anesthetic by injection. After two weeks the pain was totally gone. I couldn't believe a medical treatment option existed. I was able to go about six years before needing another nerve block. Thus, since 1993 I have had a total of 3 nerve blocks done, and it has worked out quite well for me. Oral pain killers did nothing for my problem.

    Anyway, a nerve block may be a possible effective option for your dad, but I will say that a nerve block would not likely be as effective if your dad continues to put strain on the affected areas. Then again, it may work and keep the pain down for several months despite the physical activity, but doctors are more cautious about injecting a cortisone type medication into joints, but if it was needed only once a year, may be no problem.

    Got off the main track of what is usually discussed, but I thought I'd throw this in as a possible effective option.


    Regards,
    On1Mission

    hmm Ive never heard of a nerve block, he does however get cortisone shots.

    thanks I will mention this to him today.
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    Originally posted by bow
    Just mixed up my first batch of a homebrew transdermal joint gel. The formula for the carrier is:

    50% Aloe (99.3 % Pure)
    20% Water
    10% PG
    10% Peppermint Oil
    10% IPM
    Carbomer 934 and Triethanolamine to desired consistency

    The solutes comprise of:

    44.4% MSM
    16.6% Glucosamine Sulfate
    16.6% N-Acetyl Glucosamine
    22.2% Chondroitin Sulfate

    Glucosamine Sulfate and Chondroitin sulfate have relatively poor bioavailability (26% and 13% respectively). I chose the ingredients in the carrier to provide a balance between delivering the solutes to the targeted deep joint tissue and increasing plasma blood solute concentrations by bypassing first pass metabolism. In addition to having poor bioavailability, glucosamine sulfate also has a very short half life in the bloodstream. In most of the clinical cases I found, blood concentrations (after oral administration) peaked between 1.1 and 2 hours after ingestion and then fell off quickly. While there is 50% less glucosamine in n-acetyl glucosamine as compared to glucosamine sulfate, the half life is much longer. Studies have shown that after oral administration of n-acetyl glucosamine, blood plasma levels remained high as long as 48 hours after ingestion. N-acetyl glucosamine has another unique benefit in that like chondroitin it can inhibit the release of the leukocyte-elastase enzyme, thus reducing cartilage degradation.

    I chose to include MSM as a solute due to its natural anti-inflammatory properties. MSM is a derivative of DMSO. I found that my joints ached much less during my last couple homebrew cycles. I can only assume it was the addition of the DMSO that helped.

    My goal was to create a carrier that would allow me to apply approximately 1000 mgs of MSM, 750 mgs of glucosamine and 500 mgs of chondroitin a day. At a concentration of 50 mgs/mL, this would equate to a volume of 45 mL/day. If applied twice per day, this volume was not practical. There simply is not enough skin around the joints I needed to target. Thus, I mixed the solutes in the carrier at 100 mgs/mL. While this concentration may seem high, I found that MSM, glucosamine and chondroitin were all very soluble. In addition, after application, there is no sign of the solutes on the skin. They appear to have absorbed completely.

    At 31 years old, my joints have been hacked. Between professional Kick-Boxing and Skiing, my shoulder, elbow and knees are always aching. I underwent ACL (Knee) replacement surgery in May and I have been unable to lift more than a 10 RM weight on bench due to my shoulder injuries. I am constantly looking for something that may help. I will report the results.

    BTW, my sinuses are also very clear from the peppermint oil.
    This may sound stupid, but I just get the % amounts. How can you have 100% liquid and 100% solid, that's 200% of substance in one bottle. What do you base these percentages on? Do you base them on the bottle amount (ie 8oz bottle)?
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    Re: Re: homebrew transdermal joint gel


    Originally posted by spike326
    What do you base these percentages on? Do you base them on the bottle amount (ie 8oz bottle)?
    I first mix the solvents based on the bottle volume. For example, if I had a 240 mL bottle and 40% of solven A and 60% of solvent B, I would have a total of

    A: .4 x 240 = 96 mL
    B: .6 x 240 = 144 mL

    I then calc the mass of the solutes using the same procedure at the proper concentration of solutes to solvent.

    Hope that helps.
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    Re: Re: Re: homebrew transdermal joint gel


    Originally posted by bow


    I first mix the solvents based on the bottle volume. For example, if I had a 240 mL bottle and 40% of solven A and 60% of solvent B, I would have a total of

    A: .4 x 240 = 96 mL
    B: .6 x 240 = 144 mL

    I then calc the mass of the solutes using the same procedure at the proper concentration of solutes to solvent.

    Hope that helps.
    I understand the solvents, but what about solutes, how do you determine the total amount of solute when it's in mass, and the bottle is in volume?
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    Spike,

    Bow mixed his at 100 mg per ml. So, if you're going with 240 ml of transdermal (aka solvent) then you're going to need to weigh out 24 grams (aka 24000 mgs) of powder (aka solute).

    ~Todd
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    Originally posted by tatortodd
    Spike,

    Bow mixed his at 100 mg per ml. So, if you're going with 240 ml of transdermal (aka solvent) then you're going to need to weigh out 24 grams (aka 24000 mgs) of powder (aka solute).

    ~Todd

    Exactally. Thanks Todd.
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    Thanks guys, and is Aloe Jelly preferred rather than liquid Aloe?
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