Thinking of making my own trans carrier need input

warriorway

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I'm planning on making my own transdermal carrier, I want to offset the costs a little by offering up some on the auction page. I'm just looking for some input to see if anyones interested, and if I should order extra bottles.
I can get the two main ingredients that's found in most of the commercial brands, the other ingredients I don't think are all that necessary, I will substitute them for something I think will be better. I'm leaning towards apricot oil, it's used mainly in massage oils.
It will be nonscented and usp grade. So let me know what yall think.

This is mainly an experiment for entertainment purposes and not a business venture. I read the rules before I posted this and I think I'm okay.

Thanks!
 
dsade

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What would make you think the other ingredients are not necessary?

For an increase in cost of a few dollars you get enhanced absorption of the precious active ingredients.

Don't skimp on carrier quality..it makes no sense.
 
warriorway

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Well, From what I've looked at I don't think a chemical that's used mainly in sunscreens for uv protection is necessary,and I think the triglyceride complex is some kind of vegetable oil, which I feel a quality oil would be a little nicer hence the apricot kernel oil, and I don't think a lemon scent is really all that necessary. That's my reasoning.
I was thinking of adding an aroma therapy essential oil for a nice scent but then I thought nawh.
 
warriorway

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You actually gave me a super good idea dsade! I shouldn't skimp out on carriers or enhancers. I should try and improve on the product.
I really liked t-gel but the problem was the thickeners retarded the solvents ability to dissolve the powder added. But a thicker gel has many advantages with absorbtion and keeping the powder on your skin.
What if a thickening agent was included that you could add after you dissolved the powder in the carrier?
Sometimes the powder crystalizes and feels gritty what if I added something that prevented that? What's funny though is that's what chemical is used in regular antifreeze for your car so I don't know how safe that would be. More research is needed.
Thanks!
 
jonny21

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Well, From what I've looked at I don't think a chemical that's used mainly in sunscreens for uv protection is necessary,and I think the triglyceride complex is some kind of vegetable oil, which I feel a quality oil would be a little nicer hence the apricot kernel oil, and I don't think a lemon scent is really all that necessary. That's my reasoning.
I was thinking of adding an aroma therapy essential oil for a nice scent but then I thought nawh.
If you refer to the D-limonene it is not just for a lemon scent. It is an excellent penetration enhancer. Maybe you should do some research on each ingredient and find out what its function is. don't try to recreate the wheel.
 
warriorway

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Yes I will keep looking. I just want to use the best products that we have available.
Researching d-limolene I see the key words are penetration enhancer.

I did find one study with a chart that showed d-limolene worked well but only half as well as this patented stuff azone, which is the enhancer in most prescription transdermals. Then I found the book Transdermal and Topical Drug Delivery By Adrian Williams which had some info on azone saying it was made of some fatty acids. Then it said the most potent straight chain fatty acid enhancer appears to be lauric acid. Which is coconut oil.
So I think I will use that and the d-limolene.

Maybe tomorrow I will be ready to order some of my raw materials, and then try and make a good gel formula.
 
jonny21

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Yes I will keep looking. I just want to use the best products that we have available.
Researching d-limolene I see the key words are penetration enhancer.

I did find one study with a chart that showed d-limolene worked well but only half as well as this patented stuff azone, which is the enhancer in most prescription transdermals. Then I found the book Transdermal and Topical Drug Delivery By Adrian Williams which had some info on azone saying it was made of some fatty acids. Then it said the most potent straight chain fatty acid enhancer appears to be lauric acid. Which is coconut oil.
So I think I will use that and the d-limolene.

Maybe tomorrow I will be ready to order some of my raw materials, and then try and make a good gel formula.
If you are making your own blend oleic acid is also something to consider. DMFA, is yet another penetration enhancer/solvent. One that is difficult to find but is probably the best is Diethylene glycol monoethyl ether(DGME)

I've had some extensive experience with Transdermals ;-)
 
jminis

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DMFA is probably the best PE you can use, it's just hard to get. As for Tgel with the proper techniques I could easily dissolve 15gs of a powder in 8oz's. The problem most have with trying to make a gel rather then a liquid is find the proper ratio of thickening agents.
 
warriorway

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If you are making your own blend oleic acid is also something to consider. DMFA, is yet another penetration enhancer/solvent. One that is difficult to find but is probably the best is Diethylene glycol monoethyl ether(DGME)

I've had some extensive experience with Transdermals ;-)

Don't know if I want to use stuff that's hard to find but thanks, I will look into it.

I read earlier today that oleic acid wasn't a good penetrater, but more a permeater, it was ideal for massage oil because it just spreads around and stays on the surface.
 
jonny21

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warriorway

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I think I found that dmfa it doesn't look too terribly expensive either.
Dimethylformamide
500ml $16.35
1 liter $24.21
 
jonny21

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I think I found that dmfa it doesn't look too terribly expensive either.
Dimethylformamide
500ml $16.35
1 liter $24.21
Just do some reading up on it. If I remember correctly there are some issues with carcinogens. I can't remember the details but it kept me from use it it after I read it.

Besides, like i stated earlier the DMGE is probably a more efficient PE/Solvent. I used it for a Test base TD and it was perfect.
 
warriorway

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whoa I haven't looked at bass killer stuff in ages. I couldn't find really any research on dmso as an enhancer so I kind of dismissed that even though it's easy to get.
I see your point about oleic acid too. Now I have alot to look over to decide which enhancer to use.
 
warriorway

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Johnny, I did manage to find the dmge from an art suppy place, it's a bit pricey about 40 bucks a liter. But it should make for a pretty rockin' formula.

What do you think is better for a main solvent Ethyl Alcohol or Isopropyl? I think the ethyl might be better but it's hard to find at the stores because people drink it or something. I might try Sams club.

Anyone else that might be interested in trying this out I'm not really sure if I want to spend the extra dough on the gelling agents if I'm gonna spring for a really good penetration enhancer. We shall see.
 
jonny21

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Isopropyl. Make sure you get some propylene glycol. It keeps skin moist which is necessary when using chemical such as isopropyl which will dry out skin subsequently reducing aborption.
 
warriorway

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Well I've got everything ordered except the dmge, It turns out shipping for that would be around 50 dollars due to to hazard shipping. So I'm not sure if I want to invest that much, because I don't know if anyone would be interested in buying some of my batch on the auction.
My goal was to make something better than at retailers but way cheaper for everybody, but if I used the dmge I think it would be about the same price, and I don't know why anyone would take a chance on mine when the other stuff is proven to be acceptable. So I may just use the limolene instead of the dmge (aka transcutol).
I know my product will be different from the rest. I'm going to try to make it into a lotion like t-gel. But if that doesn't work I will make it a gel.
I can't wait to get my materials and start experimenting with the formula I came up with.
 
warriorway

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My first formula hasn't worked. I bought this lotion base and a polymer thickener. But the thickener doesn't seem to work all that well, I doubled the amount that was recommended. There isn't any mention about lowering ph to thicken, that's usually used for a carbomer, which I will look into.

A natural thickener that looks promising is Cetearyl Alcohol
Cetearyl Alcohol is a fatty alcohol derived from natural oils and fats (cetyl and stearyl alcohol) that can be used to thicken and stabilize formulations.

It imparts an emollient feel to the skin. It can be used in water-in-oil emulsions, oil-in-water emulsions, and anhydrous formulations-----cream, lotion, ointment, body butter, salt scrubs. It is in the form of white flakes. Recommended usage level: 1-25%.

The key word for me is anhydrous- without water for that's what I'm working with.

If the lotion base and polymer thickener don't work, that's cool because I can make 2.5 gallons of regular lotion with it.

I like that you can use your limonene for a natural cleaner-degreaser as well.
 
warriorway

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I think I've got this figured out a little more. The polymer thickener I had only works with water, no problem, its no good.

My two options are to use an emulsifying wax which is mainly that Cetearyl Alcohol I mentioned earlier. This I believe will make my product a lotion. It's usually used in a ratio up to 5% It's pretty cheap and should be easy to work with.

I found a good recipe for a carbomer gel. That stuff costs about the same as the emulsifying wax but is only used in a ratio up to 1%. So basically it's 5 times cheaper to use. But you do need to adjust ph which shouldn't be to hard with the basic formula. But I'm not sure how hard it would be to do that with all the limonene, and lauric acid that's in my formula.

Simple hand sanitizer recipe
http://www.snowdriftfarm.com/form_handsan.html

I may just go the route of easier.
 
dsade

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I'd probably be interested in buying some of the DMGE from you.
 
jonny21

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I'd probably be interested in buying some of the DMGE from you.
It's worth it. I used it to fix a few experimental batches of Test TD and Bold TD. It was the only thing that resolved problematic grittiness in AAS TD compounds with concentrations at or above 100mg/ml in my experiments :D

Just play with it in a well ventilated area, lol
 
dsade

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It's worth it. I used it to fix a few experimental batches of Test TD and Bold TD. It was the only thing that resolved problematic grittiness in anabolic steroids TD compounds with concentrations at or above 100mg/ml in my experiments :D

Just play with it in a well ventilated area, lol
Anyone know the legality of using this in OTC products?
 
jonny21

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Anyone know the legality of using this in OTC products?
I think it is already. Transcutol is a trade name for it I think.

Carbitol is another.
 
dsade

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I think it is already. Transcutol is a trade name for it I think.

Carbitol is another.
Sweet...so much I can do with this...definitely interested in picking up some trial material.
 
warriorway

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Johnny I didn't get all the way through your log yet without getting sidetracked. But what was the consistency of phlogel, was it a gel or lotion?
 
dsade

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jonny21

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Sweet...so much I can do with this...definitely interested in picking up some trial material.
I purchased some online 2 years ago thru a chemical company in NJ.

If you do make something as far as TD carrier let me know. I'll be the first to buy and I'll log the experience in detail. I did a bunch of TD carrier experiments, mostly with phlojel-ultra but with a wide variety of CPE's and solvents. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/39429-40-day-transdermal.html
 
jonny21

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Johnny I didn't get all the way through your log yet without getting sidetracked. But what was the consistency of phlogel, was it a gel or lotion?
Think mayonaisse, lol

Not quite a gel but thicker than most lotions.
 
dsade

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I purchased some online 2 years ago thru a chemical company in NJ.

If you do make something as far as TD carrier let me know. I'll be the first to buy and I'll log the experience in detail. I did a bunch of TD carrier experiments, mostly with phlojel-ultra but with a wide variety of CPE's and solvents. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/39429-40-day-transdermal.html
We have a formula that will be marketed for Varicose/Spider veins...so definitely looking to finalize the carrier.

Any sort of irritation on sensitive tissues?
 
jonny21

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We have a formula that will be marketed for Varicose/Spider veins...so definitely looking to finalize the carrier.

Any sort of irritation on sensitive tissues?
None at all on application. Working with it in a closed room did elevate my BP though.

I think the place I got it was Chemsavers.com. Found them on e-bay: http://cgi.*********/Diethylene-glycol-monoethyl-ether-99-1L_W0QQitemZ300156816924QQihZ020QQcategoryZ104233QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQ_trksidZp1638.m118.l1247QQcmdZViewItem
 
jonny21

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Wow, I didn't know DMSO came in a gel also. That can be useful.
 
fatsuperman

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wow this is getting interesting..glad to see there are at least a few TD people out there in this day of orals vs. injectables
 
warriorway

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Well I finally found a formula that works. After 4 failed attempts I finally succeeded. I pretty much knew a minute after I was stirring it that it worked, it became thick and white, just how I wanted it. Right now it is just a thin lotion, but I will know just how thick it will get once it finishes cooling.
It actually felt pretty good on my hands, it feels like there's a soft protective layer over them and they have coconut-lemony smell.

My formula is-
Hand sanitizer 65%
propylene glycol 10%
d-limonene 10%
organic coconut oil extra virgin 10%
emulsifying wax 5%

The reason I chose to use hand sanitizer was that it was the missing key I needed, and it was easier for me to just use that than it was to make my own hand sanitizer with the formula I put a link too already.

I have some 4ad and 1t powder to mix in, I will let you know how much I get in and how well it works. This product should be about the same as t-gel or phlogel. I think it's much better than the non lotion products which need shaking because the ingredients seperate. This stuff will not separate because of the emulsifiers and will keep the powders suspended because of the thickeners.

I can't wait to whip up a big batch and see if I can auction some off! I think I will call it tranny-gel.
 

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warriorway

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I may have spoke too soon, my other formula which I made before the one I wrote about gelled up quite nicely too, with that stuff I did not use hand sanitizer I used.
isopropyl alcohol 85grams
water 71 g
Lotion base 10%
polyacrylate thickener .03%
emulsifying wax 10%
coconut oil .03%
propylene glycol .03%
d-limonene .03%

This stuff seems thicker in consistency, more gel like but not as smooth, more bubbly than lotion, like the earlier formula. It also seems like the alcohol content is much too high. I think it needs less alcohol and water and more glycol, limonene, and coconut oil.

I honestly think I like the feel and look of the hand sanitizer one better. The lotion base and thickener are meant for water based lotions, it just doesn't seem to work quite right with an alcohol base.
 
jonny21

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I honestly think I like the feel and look of the hand sanitizer one better.
You might like the look and feel of hand sanitizer but it is an extremely poor carrier. Minimal penetration, maximal drying of skin. Good luck though.
 
warriorway

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Now that my other formula's settled they both actually look about the same. The hand sanitizer one looks thinner but cleaner, I don't know why you think it would be poor it's 65% ethyl alcohol which is the primary solvent in some of the script formulas I looked at.
I haven't decided which formula I want to use yet, but I'm going to rework the second one, I think that's the one I want to use.
 
jonny21

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I don't know why you think it would be poor it's 65% ethyl alcohol which is the primary solvent in some of the script formulas I looked at.
I haven't decided which formula I want to use yet, but I'm going to rework the second one, I think that's the one I want to use.
Ethyl alcohol is a solvent with minimal penetration capabilites. The d-limonene is the only penetration enhancer in your formula. It is always best to add a few so they can work synergistically.
The hand sanitzier is useless. It was never meant to penetrate. Just work topically on bacteria.
 
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fatsuperman

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Why does hand sanitizer seem so interesting to so many people, I don't get it?
 
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poopypants

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I'm planning on making my own transdermal carrier, I want to offset the costs a little by offering up some on the auction page. I'm just looking for some input to see if anyones interested, and if I should order extra bottles.
I can get the two main ingredients that's found in most of the commercial brands, the other ingredients I don't think are all that necessary, I will substitute them for something I think will be better. I'm leaning towards apricot oil, it's used mainly in massage oils.
It will be nonscented and usp grade. So let me know what yall think.

This is mainly an experiment for entertainment purposes and not a business venture. I read the rules before I posted this and I think I'm okay.

Thanks!
isnt penetrate like cheap as hell??? can you really make an equivalent transderm for a similar cost and know it will work just as well too boot?

If anything Id just get something like Penetrate then add DMSO or something it doesnt have to make it all that much better. JMO.
 
warriorway

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Why does hand sanitizer seem so interesting to so many people, I don't get it?
Basically to use carbomer as a thickener, you make hand sanitizer for the first phase of the formula, you do this because the carbomer takes time to swell. So you make that first, then add the other ingredients later. All it is is alcohol, water, carbomer, and the ph adjuster.
 
warriorway

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Penetrate doesn't seem that cheap to me, and I don't like it. It's oily, runny, it separates and all the powder falls down to the bottom. The stuff I'm making is like t-gel, which used to cost me 20 bucks for 4 ounces. I was thinking of offering up 10 oz for about 12 bucks.
 
warriorway

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Ethyle alcohol is a solvent without any penetration capabilites. The d-limonene is the only penetration enhancer in your formula. It is always best to add a few so they can work synergistically.
The hand sanitzier is useless. It was never meant to penetrate. Just work topically on bacteria.
I don't know if this helps to explain my reasoning, but all the formulas I've researched places ethylene as preferred over isopropyl, they always list it first anyways. I've also found other research that said alcohol is a penetration enhancer, and coconut oil is pure lauric acid, and that it's the best natural penetration enhancer of all the oils.

Pasted from Hormone replacement therapy drug formulations for topical application to the skin
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5968919.html

SUMMARY OF INVENTION
The present invention has as a principal object to provide stable topical compositions effective for the transdermal application of testosterone, estradiol, or other hormone compounds by the application of the composition to the skin.
The above and other objects of the invention, which will become more apparent from the following more detailed description and preferred embodiments is achieved, according to a first aspect of the invention, by an hormonal drug containing alcoholic or aqueous alcoholic composition which comprises, on a weight basis, of the total composition:
a therapeutically effective amount of hormonal drug;
a skin penetration enhancing effective amount, in the range of from about 0.5 to 25%, of a C 7 to C 14 -hydrocarbyl substituted 1,3-dioxolane, 1,3-dioxane or acetal (which may hereinafter be collectively referred to as SPE);
0 to about 30% of 1,2-diol having from 3 to 6 carbon atoms;
at least about 35% of volatile alcohol selected from the group consisting of ethanol, propanol and mixture thereof;
0 to about 40% water; and,
optionally, a gelling agent effective to thicken the composition to avoid or minimize run-off when applied to the skin.
In preferred embodiments of this aspect of the invention the ingredients are included in the formulation in the following ranges:
from about 0.01 to 10%, preferably 1 to 6%, especially preferably 1.0 to 4% hormone;
from about 2 to 15%, preferably 5 to 10% of SPE wherein the hydrocarbyl group substituent has from about 7 to 10 carbon atoms;
from about 5 to 30%, preferably 5 to 20% propylene glycol;
from about 35 to 70% ethanol, isopropanol or mixture thereof;
from about 0 to 35% water; and,
up to about 4% of cellulosic thickener.
 
jonny21

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If you read the link it states that they add a Chemical Penetration Enhancer (CPE) to increase penetration: ...have enhanced penetration through skin by including in the formulation 2-n-nonyl-1,3-dioxolane or other hydrocarbyl derivative of 1,3-dioxolane or 1,3-dioxane or acetal, as skin penetration enhancing compound

Honestly, I really do not want to argue with you. You sound pretty set in your mind so have a ball. Rub as much hand sanitizer on as you like.
 
warriorway

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I'm trying one more formula here without the hand sanitizer, or the lotion base/acrylate thickener. This one should be it, I think I've got the hang of this now. Before when I was having trouble it was because I was leaving out the water.
 
warriorway

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If you read the link it states that they add a Chemical Penetration Enhancer (CPE) to increase penetration: ...have enhanced penetration through skin by including in the formulation 2-n-nonyl-1,3-dioxolane or other hydrocarbyl derivative of 1,3-dioxolane or 1,3-dioxane or acetal, as skin penetration enhancing compound

Honestly, I really do not want to argue with you. You sound pretty set in your mind so have a ball. Rub as much hand sanitizer on as you like.
I was never set on using hand sanitizer in the first place, if you read what I wrote in the next post after I posted a pic, I said Oh my other formula gelled up too in which I didn't use any hand sanitizer.
 
poopypants

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Penetrate doesn't seem that cheap to me, and I don't like it. It's oily, runny, it separates and all the powder falls down to the bottom. The stuff I'm making is like t-gel, which used to cost me 20 bucks for 4 ounces. I was thinking of offering up 10 oz for about 12 bucks.
I dont know what your relatively thinking but 12 bucks for 8oz penetrate isnt much, the DMSO in gel form would thicken it up as well and keep it from crashing so much..... JMO but how do you know youll even get close to the same absorption rate with your formula considering your not using nearly the same amount of stuff in a penatrate DMSO combo for pure penetration.
 
warriorway

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I dont know what your relatively thinking but 12 bucks for 8oz penetrate isnt much, the DMSO in gel form would thicken it up as well and keep it from crashing so much..... JMO but how do you know youll even get close to the same absorption rate with your formula considering your not using nearly the same amount of stuff in a penatrate DMSO combo for pure penetration.
12.00 for penetrate+7.00 shipping, 8.00 dmso plus 6.00 shipping = kinda spendy

I can only speculate the ammounts of the ingredients that's in penetrate. I'm more or less copying the ratio's for prescription test gel. While I don't have the chemical penetration enhancer available due to high cost of hazard shipping, I can use limonene at the same ratio the test gel would use for it's enhancer, which is 10% So I'm using the proper ratio's is what I'm saying.

There are also advantages to using a gel base, which I've already listed but are, a gel base product spreads the hormone more evenly and holds it on the skin better. That alone more than makes up for anything my stuff might be lacking, you know? You get even distribution for proper absorbtion, and not nearly as much product loss due to it flaking off as you would with a watery base product.
 
jonny21

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12.00 for penetrate+7.00 shipping, 8.00 dmso plus 6.00 shipping = kinda spendy

I can only speculate the ammounts of the ingredients that's in penetrate. I'm more or less copying the ratio's for prescription test gel. While I don't have the chemical penetration enhancer available due to high cost of hazard shipping, I can use limonene at the same ratio the test gel would use for it's enhancer, which is 10% So I'm using the proper ratio's is what I'm saying.

There are also advantages to using a gel base, which I've already listed but are, a gel base product spreads the hormone more evenly and holds it on the skin better. That alone more than makes up for anything my stuff might be lacking, you know? You get even distribution for proper absorbtion, and not nearly as much product loss due to it flaking off as you would with a watery base product.
I would hope that you also considered what the maximum concentration of your carrier will be to provide maximum absorption. Now I know for sure that Penetrate will hold up to a 50% final concentration (50mg/ml) of test. I would assume that since you are modeling your gel off of commercial Test gels it would achieve similar concentrations (1%) for maximum efficacy. Do you have any idea how many ml of gel you will need to apply to reach a decent dosage? do you actually think you are going to recreate the wheel with your carrier?

I use phlojel with d-limonene and dmge and can get 100mg/ml without residual and i would venture to guess a much higher absorption rate than your formula. Granted, phlojel costs more but when you factor in absorption, concentration and ease of application I think the cost is insignificant.
 
warriorway

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I would hope that you also considered what the maximum concentration of your carrier will be to provide maximum absorption. Now I know for sure that Penetrate will hold up to a 50% final concentration (50mg/ml) of test. I would assume that since you are modeling your gel off of commercial Test gels it would achieve similar concentrations (1%) for maximum efficacy. Do you have any idea how many ml of gel you will need to apply to reach a decent dosage? do you actually think you are going to recreate the wheel with your carrier?

I use phlojel with d-limonene and dmge and can get 100mg/ml without residual and i would venture to guess a much higher absorption rate than your formula. Granted, phlojel costs more but when you factor in absorption, concentration and ease of application I think the cost is insignificant.
It should be similar to penetrate. What are you trying to get at about recreating the wheel? I'm not trying to recreate anything! I'm just defending my thread. You tell me ethylene sucks, when I have tons of research where ethylene is the ideal solvent. You haven't even read half the things I wrote in this thread. If you did you would know I had more than one formula for a t-gel that worked, and you would know I haven't tried to see how much 1t-4ad powder I can get in it yet. It should be up to 5% with 4 being ideal.
I'm not mad at you, but this is my thread and I will defend it. I have researched tons, I know how to make this stuff, believe it or not, I don't care. I've been on this board longer than you by the way. :cheers:
 

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