Thinking of making my own trans carrier need input

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    We have a formula that will be marketed for Varicose/Spider veins...so definitely looking to finalize the carrier.

    Any sort of irritation on sensitive tissues?
    None at all on application. Working with it in a closed room did elevate my BP though.

    I think the place I got it was Chemsavers.com. Found them on e-bay: http://cgi.*********/Diethylene-glyc...QQcmdZViewItem
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    Wow, I didn't know DMSO came in a gel also. That can be useful.
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    wow this is getting interesting..glad to see there are at least a few TD people out there in this day of orals vs. injectables
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    Well I finally found a formula that works. After 4 failed attempts I finally succeeded. I pretty much knew a minute after I was stirring it that it worked, it became thick and white, just how I wanted it. Right now it is just a thin lotion, but I will know just how thick it will get once it finishes cooling.
    It actually felt pretty good on my hands, it feels like there's a soft protective layer over them and they have coconut-lemony smell.

    My formula is-
    Hand sanitizer 65%
    propylene glycol 10%
    d-limonene 10%
    organic coconut oil extra virgin 10%
    emulsifying wax 5%

    The reason I chose to use hand sanitizer was that it was the missing key I needed, and it was easier for me to just use that than it was to make my own hand sanitizer with the formula I put a link too already.

    I have some 4ad and 1t powder to mix in, I will let you know how much I get in and how well it works. This product should be about the same as t-gel or phlogel. I think it's much better than the non lotion products which need shaking because the ingredients seperate. This stuff will not separate because of the emulsifiers and will keep the powders suspended because of the thickeners.

    I can't wait to whip up a big batch and see if I can auction some off! I think I will call it tranny-gel.
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    I may have spoke too soon, my other formula which I made before the one I wrote about gelled up quite nicely too, with that stuff I did not use hand sanitizer I used.
    isopropyl alcohol 85grams
    water 71 g
    Lotion base 10%
    polyacrylate thickener .03%
    emulsifying wax 10%
    coconut oil .03%
    propylene glycol .03%
    d-limonene .03%

    This stuff seems thicker in consistency, more gel like but not as smooth, more bubbly than lotion, like the earlier formula. It also seems like the alcohol content is much too high. I think it needs less alcohol and water and more glycol, limonene, and coconut oil.

    I honestly think I like the feel and look of the hand sanitizer one better. The lotion base and thickener are meant for water based lotions, it just doesn't seem to work quite right with an alcohol base.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    I honestly think I like the feel and look of the hand sanitizer one better.
    You might like the look and feel of hand sanitizer but it is an extremely poor carrier. Minimal penetration, maximal drying of skin. Good luck though.
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    Now that my other formula's settled they both actually look about the same. The hand sanitizer one looks thinner but cleaner, I don't know why you think it would be poor it's 65% ethyl alcohol which is the primary solvent in some of the script formulas I looked at.
    I haven't decided which formula I want to use yet, but I'm going to rework the second one, I think that's the one I want to use.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    I don't know why you think it would be poor it's 65% ethyl alcohol which is the primary solvent in some of the script formulas I looked at.
    I haven't decided which formula I want to use yet, but I'm going to rework the second one, I think that's the one I want to use.
    Ethyl alcohol is a solvent with minimal penetration capabilites. The d-limonene is the only penetration enhancer in your formula. It is always best to add a few so they can work synergistically.
    The hand sanitzier is useless. It was never meant to penetrate. Just work topically on bacteria.
    Last edited by jonny21; 03-17-2008 at 04:28 PM.
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    Why does hand sanitizer seem so interesting to so many people, I don't get it?
    Last edited by fatsuperman; 03-17-2008 at 02:03 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    I'm planning on making my own transdermal carrier, I want to offset the costs a little by offering up some on the auction page. I'm just looking for some input to see if anyones interested, and if I should order extra bottles.
    I can get the two main ingredients that's found in most of the commercial brands, the other ingredients I don't think are all that necessary, I will substitute them for something I think will be better. I'm leaning towards apricot oil, it's used mainly in massage oils.
    It will be nonscented and usp grade. So let me know what yall think.

    This is mainly an experiment for entertainment purposes and not a business venture. I read the rules before I posted this and I think I'm okay.

    Thanks!
    isnt penetrate like cheap as hell??? can you really make an equivalent transderm for a similar cost and know it will work just as well too boot?

    If anything Id just get something like Penetrate then add DMSO or something it doesnt have to make it all that much better. JMO.
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatsuperman View Post
    Why does hand sanitizer seem so interesting to so many people, I don't get it?
    Basically to use carbomer as a thickener, you make hand sanitizer for the first phase of the formula, you do this because the carbomer takes time to swell. So you make that first, then add the other ingredients later. All it is is alcohol, water, carbomer, and the ph adjuster.
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    Poopy
    Penetrate doesn't seem that cheap to me, and I don't like it. It's oily, runny, it separates and all the powder falls down to the bottom. The stuff I'm making is like t-gel, which used to cost me 20 bucks for 4 ounces. I was thinking of offering up 10 oz for about 12 bucks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny21 View Post
    Ethyle alcohol is a solvent without any penetration capabilites. The d-limonene is the only penetration enhancer in your formula. It is always best to add a few so they can work synergistically.
    The hand sanitzier is useless. It was never meant to penetrate. Just work topically on bacteria.
    I don't know if this helps to explain my reasoning, but all the formulas I've researched places ethylene as preferred over isopropyl, they always list it first anyways. I've also found other research that said alcohol is a penetration enhancer, and coconut oil is pure lauric acid, and that it's the best natural penetration enhancer of all the oils.

    Pasted from Hormone replacement therapy drug formulations for topical application to the skin
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5968919.html

    SUMMARY OF INVENTION
    The present invention has as a principal object to provide stable topical compositions effective for the transdermal application of testosterone, estradiol, or other hormone compounds by the application of the composition to the skin.
    The above and other objects of the invention, which will become more apparent from the following more detailed description and preferred embodiments is achieved, according to a first aspect of the invention, by an hormonal drug containing alcoholic or aqueous alcoholic composition which comprises, on a weight basis, of the total composition:
    a therapeutically effective amount of hormonal drug;
    a skin penetration enhancing effective amount, in the range of from about 0.5 to 25%, of a C 7 to C 14 -hydrocarbyl substituted 1,3-dioxolane, 1,3-dioxane or acetal (which may hereinafter be collectively referred to as SPE);
    0 to about 30% of 1,2-diol having from 3 to 6 carbon atoms;
    at least about 35% of volatile alcohol selected from the group consisting of ethanol, propanol and mixture thereof;
    0 to about 40% water; and,
    optionally, a gelling agent effective to thicken the composition to avoid or minimize run-off when applied to the skin.
    In preferred embodiments of this aspect of the invention the ingredients are included in the formulation in the following ranges:
    from about 0.01 to 10%, preferably 1 to 6%, especially preferably 1.0 to 4% hormone;
    from about 2 to 15%, preferably 5 to 10% of SPE wherein the hydrocarbyl group substituent has from about 7 to 10 carbon atoms;
    from about 5 to 30%, preferably 5 to 20% propylene glycol;
    from about 35 to 70% ethanol, isopropanol or mixture thereof;
    from about 0 to 35% water; and,
    up to about 4% of cellulosic thickener.
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    If you read the link it states that they add a Chemical Penetration Enhancer (CPE) to increase penetration: ...have enhanced penetration through skin by including in the formulation 2-n-nonyl-1,3-dioxolane or other hydrocarbyl derivative of 1,3-dioxolane or 1,3-dioxane or acetal, as skin penetration enhancing compound

    Honestly, I really do not want to argue with you. You sound pretty set in your mind so have a ball. Rub as much hand sanitizer on as you like.
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    I'm trying one more formula here without the hand sanitizer, or the lotion base/acrylate thickener. This one should be it, I think I've got the hang of this now. Before when I was having trouble it was because I was leaving out the water.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny21 View Post
    If you read the link it states that they add a Chemical Penetration Enhancer (CPE) to increase penetration: ...have enhanced penetration through skin by including in the formulation 2-n-nonyl-1,3-dioxolane or other hydrocarbyl derivative of 1,3-dioxolane or 1,3-dioxane or acetal, as skin penetration enhancing compound

    Honestly, I really do not want to argue with you. You sound pretty set in your mind so have a ball. Rub as much hand sanitizer on as you like.
    I was never set on using hand sanitizer in the first place, if you read what I wrote in the next post after I posted a pic, I said Oh my other formula gelled up too in which I didn't use any hand sanitizer.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    Poopy
    Penetrate doesn't seem that cheap to me, and I don't like it. It's oily, runny, it separates and all the powder falls down to the bottom. The stuff I'm making is like t-gel, which used to cost me 20 bucks for 4 ounces. I was thinking of offering up 10 oz for about 12 bucks.
    I dont know what your relatively thinking but 12 bucks for 8oz penetrate isnt much, the DMSO in gel form would thicken it up as well and keep it from crashing so much..... JMO but how do you know youll even get close to the same absorption rate with your formula considering your not using nearly the same amount of stuff in a penatrate DMSO combo for pure penetration.
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    Quote Originally Posted by poopypants View Post
    I dont know what your relatively thinking but 12 bucks for 8oz penetrate isnt much, the DMSO in gel form would thicken it up as well and keep it from crashing so much..... JMO but how do you know youll even get close to the same absorption rate with your formula considering your not using nearly the same amount of stuff in a penatrate DMSO combo for pure penetration.
    12.00 for penetrate+7.00 shipping, 8.00 dmso plus 6.00 shipping = kinda spendy

    I can only speculate the ammounts of the ingredients that's in penetrate. I'm more or less copying the ratio's for prescription test gel. While I don't have the chemical penetration enhancer available due to high cost of hazard shipping, I can use limonene at the same ratio the test gel would use for it's enhancer, which is 10% So I'm using the proper ratio's is what I'm saying.

    There are also advantages to using a gel base, which I've already listed but are, a gel base product spreads the hormone more evenly and holds it on the skin better. That alone more than makes up for anything my stuff might be lacking, you know? You get even distribution for proper absorbtion, and not nearly as much product loss due to it flaking off as you would with a watery base product.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    12.00 for penetrate+7.00 shipping, 8.00 dmso plus 6.00 shipping = kinda spendy

    I can only speculate the ammounts of the ingredients that's in penetrate. I'm more or less copying the ratio's for prescription test gel. While I don't have the chemical penetration enhancer available due to high cost of hazard shipping, I can use limonene at the same ratio the test gel would use for it's enhancer, which is 10% So I'm using the proper ratio's is what I'm saying.

    There are also advantages to using a gel base, which I've already listed but are, a gel base product spreads the hormone more evenly and holds it on the skin better. That alone more than makes up for anything my stuff might be lacking, you know? You get even distribution for proper absorbtion, and not nearly as much product loss due to it flaking off as you would with a watery base product.
    I would hope that you also considered what the maximum concentration of your carrier will be to provide maximum absorption. Now I know for sure that Penetrate will hold up to a 50% final concentration (50mg/ml) of test. I would assume that since you are modeling your gel off of commercial Test gels it would achieve similar concentrations (1%) for maximum efficacy. Do you have any idea how many ml of gel you will need to apply to reach a decent dosage? do you actually think you are going to recreate the wheel with your carrier?

    I use phlojel with d-limonene and dmge and can get 100mg/ml without residual and i would venture to guess a much higher absorption rate than your formula. Granted, phlojel costs more but when you factor in absorption, concentration and ease of application I think the cost is insignificant.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny21 View Post
    I would hope that you also considered what the maximum concentration of your carrier will be to provide maximum absorption. Now I know for sure that Penetrate will hold up to a 50% final concentration (50mg/ml) of test. I would assume that since you are modeling your gel off of commercial Test gels it would achieve similar concentrations (1%) for maximum efficacy. Do you have any idea how many ml of gel you will need to apply to reach a decent dosage? do you actually think you are going to recreate the wheel with your carrier?

    I use phlojel with d-limonene and dmge and can get 100mg/ml without residual and i would venture to guess a much higher absorption rate than your formula. Granted, phlojel costs more but when you factor in absorption, concentration and ease of application I think the cost is insignificant.
    It should be similar to penetrate. What are you trying to get at about recreating the wheel? I'm not trying to recreate anything! I'm just defending my thread. You tell me ethylene sucks, when I have tons of research where ethylene is the ideal solvent. You haven't even read half the things I wrote in this thread. If you did you would know I had more than one formula for a t-gel that worked, and you would know I haven't tried to see how much 1t-4ad powder I can get in it yet. It should be up to 5% with 4 being ideal.
    I'm not mad at you, but this is my thread and I will defend it. I have researched tons, I know how to make this stuff, believe it or not, I don't care. I've been on this board longer than you by the way.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    It should be similar to penetrate. What are you trying to get at about recreating the wheel? I'm not trying to recreate anything! I'm just defending my thread. You tell me ethylene sucks, when I have tons of research where ethylene is the ideal solvent. You haven't even read half the things I wrote in this thread. If you did you would know I had more than one formula for a t-gel that worked, and you would know I haven't tried to see how much 1t-4ad powder I can get in it yet. It should be up to 5% with 4 being ideal.
    I'm not mad at you, but this is my thread and I will defend it. I have researched tons, I know how to make this stuff, believe it or not, I don't care. I've been on this board longer than you by the way.
    WOW!!! did you just pull rank of 5 months on a guy whos been here a total of almost 3 years himself??? you also shoot yourself in the foot with that one since you dont even have 1/4 the posts this gentleman has. Most of which are all very informative and show how muck knowledge he has regarding anabolics and their use. How do you know how many years he may have lurked before that and how many other boards that he may have been part of that might of been shut down without you ever knowing they exists???

    Im sorry that was about the most immature thing Ive seen posted on these boards when coming from a guy who is saying hes done so much research claiming intelligence right before it.

    I agree you may know what your doing and have the right to defend your thread but that was just silly sir. Good luck with your transdermal but I think Ill stick to what I know to work for a few more bucks.
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    Well he needs to lay off and the smiley guys mean it was a joke, duh?
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    lets just simma down now... SIMMA DOWN NOW!!!!

    cant even remember whats that from but its awesome....

    theres one for you too then
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    It should be similar to penetrate. What are you trying to get at about recreating the wheel? I'm not trying to recreate anything! I'm just defending my thread. You tell me ethylene sucks, when I have tons of research where ethylene is the ideal solvent. You haven't even read half the things I wrote in this thread. If you did you would know I had more than one formula for a t-gel that worked, and you would know I haven't tried to see how much 1t-4ad powder I can get in it yet. It should be up to 5% with 4 being ideal.
    I'm not mad at you, but this is my thread and I will defend it. I have researched tons, I know how to make this stuff, believe it or not, I don't care. I've been on this board longer than you by the way.
    Why are you defending your thread? Ethylene or ethyl alcohol?

    There is a difference between solvent and penetration enhancer.

    Your time on the forum means what? I'll tell you, nothing.

    I have been walking the planet longer, does that mean anything? No

    I have read what you have been posting. I just disagree. I'll unsubscribe now. You do realize that with a .5% compound you will probably have to apply close to 20ml a day? Oh wait of course you do, you have been on the board longer than I
    Last edited by jonny21; 03-20-2008 at 06:12 PM.
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    The formula I tried out yesterday didn't seem to work that well, it's a wonder I even did anything spending all my free time answering redundant questions yesterday. Being ganged up on got me really TO'd by the end of the night.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny21 View Post
    Why are you defending your thread? Ethylene or ethyl alcohol?

    There is a difference between solvent and penetration enhancer.

    Your time on the forum means what? I'll tell you, nothing.

    I have been walking the planet longer, does that mean anything? No

    I have read what you have been posting. I just disagree. I'll unsubscribe now. You do realize that with a 5% compound you will probably have to apply close to 20ml a day? Oh wait of course you do, you have been on the board longer than I
    I don't know why he's trying to make me look bad? In 10oz of gel 5%= roughly 14 grams of powder, not too shabby. We'll see how much more I can get into it later once I've decided on the best formula. Anyways at that ratio I would have 46.6mg per ml in a 300 ml batch.
    8ml per day would last 37 days, that would have me on a dose of 372.8mg per day, which I think is more than adequate.

    Hopefully my math is correct, I think it is, but when I'm wrong I will admit to it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    I don't know why he's trying to make me look bad? In 10oz of gel 5%= roughly 14 grams of powder, not too shabby. We'll see how much more I can get into it later once I've decided on the best formula. Anyways at that ratio I would have 46.6mg per ml in a 300 ml batch.
    8ml per day would last 37 days, that would have me on a dose of 372.8mg per day, which I think is more than adequate.

    Hopefully my math is correct, I think it is, but when I'm wrong I will admit to it.
    I am not trying to make you look bad. Just trying to explain and show that some of your logic is flawed.

    Its actually my fault. I should have tried to explain that a compound like Androgel, which you are mimicking your carrier, only delivers 5mg Testosterone per 5 grams (http://www.androgel.com/hcp/benefits_androgel.html). Now, when you work with gel you have to figure ~1g:1.1ml, at least that is what pharmacists do for phlojel ultra. Do the math 5.5ml=5mg. When I wrote 5% I think it should have been .5% since Androgel is labeled as 1% but only delivers 5mg per 5g which is actually .1%

    Really, all I am saying is there is better ways and premade carriers that surpass the efficay of products like Androgel.
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    Ok I get it 1ml to 50mg ratio=50% That seems like a strange way of putting it. I would be perfectly happy with that ratio and who knows, maybe I can get it higher than that.

    That seems like a bold statement about being better carriers than what's in androgel, you simply cannot compete with the money and resources pharmaceutical companies have. You seem to prefer your phlogel, what makes it so different? I can't find anything on it, it's made by avant labs correct?
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    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    Ok I get it 1ml to 50mg ratio=50% That seems like a strange way of putting it. I would be perfectly happy with that ratio and who knows, maybe I can get it higher than that.
    No, that was my error. 5% is 50mg/ml. My concern was that you will get much less than that, hopefully I am wrong.


    Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    That seems like a bold statement about being better carriers than what's in androgel, you simply cannot compete with the money and resources pharmaceutical companies have. You seem to prefer your phlogel, what makes it so different? I can't find anything on it, it's made by avant labs correct?
    No, it is made by JAR pharmaceuticals (jarpharma2007 - Products)

    This is what some pharmacists use for compounding transdermal products.

    The original Avant formula is now Dermabolics transport matrix and the same formula as Penetrate.
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    That looks cool, but it's not for me. I don't have health insurance and it costs like 150 dollars just to see a doctor.
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    By destro19 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 01-20-2003, 03:18 PM

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