Thinking of making my own trans carrier need input

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    Shipping was way too expensive for me to order. More power to ya if you want to order some. I don't think there's any legal issues with this, it is used in many many products.

    http://www.artchemicals.com/2-2-Etho...46418C627.aspx
    Might go ahead and clock the shipping charge into my R&D budget.

    If I do, I would be happy to pass some along for you.
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless


  2. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Sweet...so much I can do with this...definitely interested in picking up some trial material.
    I purchased some online 2 years ago thru a chemical company in NJ.

    If you do make something as far as TD carrier let me know. I'll be the first to buy and I'll log the experience in detail. I did a bunch of TD carrier experiments, mostly with phlojel-ultra but with a wide variety of CPE's and solvents. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle...ansdermal.html
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    Johnny I didn't get all the way through your log yet without getting sidetracked. But what was the consistency of phlogel, was it a gel or lotion?
    Think mayonaisse, lol

    Not quite a gel but thicker than most lotions.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  4. Quote Originally Posted by jonny21 View Post
    I purchased some online 2 years ago thru a chemical company in NJ.

    If you do make something as far as TD carrier let me know. I'll be the first to buy and I'll log the experience in detail. I did a bunch of TD carrier experiments, mostly with phlojel-ultra but with a wide variety of CPE's and solvents. http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle...ansdermal.html
    We have a formula that will be marketed for Varicose/Spider veins...so definitely looking to finalize the carrier.

    Any sort of irritation on sensitive tissues?
    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Flawless Skin Couture - We give you the tools to make you Flawless

  5. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    Might go ahead and clock the shipping charge into my R&D budget.

    If I do, I would be happy to pass some along for you.

    Wow, yeah I'd take some, sweet!
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by dsade View Post
    We have a formula that will be marketed for Varicose/Spider veins...so definitely looking to finalize the carrier.

    Any sort of irritation on sensitive tissues?
    None at all on application. Working with it in a closed room did elevate my BP though.

    I think the place I got it was Chemsavers.com. Found them on e-bay: http://cgi.*********/Diethylene-glyc...QQcmdZViewItem
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  7. Wow, I didn't know DMSO came in a gel also. That can be useful.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  8. wow this is getting interesting..glad to see there are at least a few TD people out there in this day of orals vs. injectables

  9. Well I finally found a formula that works. After 4 failed attempts I finally succeeded. I pretty much knew a minute after I was stirring it that it worked, it became thick and white, just how I wanted it. Right now it is just a thin lotion, but I will know just how thick it will get once it finishes cooling.
    It actually felt pretty good on my hands, it feels like there's a soft protective layer over them and they have coconut-lemony smell.

    My formula is-
    Hand sanitizer 65%
    propylene glycol 10%
    d-limonene 10%
    organic coconut oil extra virgin 10%
    emulsifying wax 5%

    The reason I chose to use hand sanitizer was that it was the missing key I needed, and it was easier for me to just use that than it was to make my own hand sanitizer with the formula I put a link too already.

    I have some 4ad and 1t powder to mix in, I will let you know how much I get in and how well it works. This product should be about the same as t-gel or phlogel. I think it's much better than the non lotion products which need shaking because the ingredients seperate. This stuff will not separate because of the emulsifiers and will keep the powders suspended because of the thickeners.

    I can't wait to whip up a big batch and see if I can auction some off! I think I will call it tranny-gel.
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  10. I may have spoke too soon, my other formula which I made before the one I wrote about gelled up quite nicely too, with that stuff I did not use hand sanitizer I used.
    isopropyl alcohol 85grams
    water 71 g
    Lotion base 10%
    polyacrylate thickener .03%
    emulsifying wax 10%
    coconut oil .03%
    propylene glycol .03%
    d-limonene .03%

    This stuff seems thicker in consistency, more gel like but not as smooth, more bubbly than lotion, like the earlier formula. It also seems like the alcohol content is much too high. I think it needs less alcohol and water and more glycol, limonene, and coconut oil.

    I honestly think I like the feel and look of the hand sanitizer one better. The lotion base and thickener are meant for water based lotions, it just doesn't seem to work quite right with an alcohol base.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    I honestly think I like the feel and look of the hand sanitizer one better.
    You might like the look and feel of hand sanitizer but it is an extremely poor carrier. Minimal penetration, maximal drying of skin. Good luck though.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  12. Now that my other formula's settled they both actually look about the same. The hand sanitizer one looks thinner but cleaner, I don't know why you think it would be poor it's 65% ethyl alcohol which is the primary solvent in some of the script formulas I looked at.
    I haven't decided which formula I want to use yet, but I'm going to rework the second one, I think that's the one I want to use.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    I don't know why you think it would be poor it's 65% ethyl alcohol which is the primary solvent in some of the script formulas I looked at.
    I haven't decided which formula I want to use yet, but I'm going to rework the second one, I think that's the one I want to use.
    Ethyl alcohol is a solvent with minimal penetration capabilites. The d-limonene is the only penetration enhancer in your formula. It is always best to add a few so they can work synergistically.
    The hand sanitzier is useless. It was never meant to penetrate. Just work topically on bacteria.
    Last edited by jonny21; 03-17-2008 at 05:28 PM.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  14. Why does hand sanitizer seem so interesting to so many people, I don't get it?
    Last edited by fatsuperman; 03-17-2008 at 03:03 AM.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    I'm planning on making my own transdermal carrier, I want to offset the costs a little by offering up some on the auction page. I'm just looking for some input to see if anyones interested, and if I should order extra bottles.
    I can get the two main ingredients that's found in most of the commercial brands, the other ingredients I don't think are all that necessary, I will substitute them for something I think will be better. I'm leaning towards apricot oil, it's used mainly in massage oils.
    It will be nonscented and usp grade. So let me know what yall think.

    This is mainly an experiment for entertainment purposes and not a business venture. I read the rules before I posted this and I think I'm okay.

    Thanks!
    isnt penetrate like cheap as hell??? can you really make an equivalent transderm for a similar cost and know it will work just as well too boot?

    If anything Id just get something like Penetrate then add DMSO or something it doesnt have to make it all that much better. JMO.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by fatsuperman View Post
    Why does hand sanitizer seem so interesting to so many people, I don't get it?
    Basically to use carbomer as a thickener, you make hand sanitizer for the first phase of the formula, you do this because the carbomer takes time to swell. So you make that first, then add the other ingredients later. All it is is alcohol, water, carbomer, and the ph adjuster.

  17. Poopy
    Penetrate doesn't seem that cheap to me, and I don't like it. It's oily, runny, it separates and all the powder falls down to the bottom. The stuff I'm making is like t-gel, which used to cost me 20 bucks for 4 ounces. I was thinking of offering up 10 oz for about 12 bucks.

  18. Quote Originally Posted by jonny21 View Post
    Ethyle alcohol is a solvent without any penetration capabilites. The d-limonene is the only penetration enhancer in your formula. It is always best to add a few so they can work synergistically.
    The hand sanitzier is useless. It was never meant to penetrate. Just work topically on bacteria.
    I don't know if this helps to explain my reasoning, but all the formulas I've researched places ethylene as preferred over isopropyl, they always list it first anyways. I've also found other research that said alcohol is a penetration enhancer, and coconut oil is pure lauric acid, and that it's the best natural penetration enhancer of all the oils.

    Pasted from Hormone replacement therapy drug formulations for topical application to the skin
    http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5968919.html

    SUMMARY OF INVENTION
    The present invention has as a principal object to provide stable topical compositions effective for the transdermal application of testosterone, estradiol, or other hormone compounds by the application of the composition to the skin.
    The above and other objects of the invention, which will become more apparent from the following more detailed description and preferred embodiments is achieved, according to a first aspect of the invention, by an hormonal drug containing alcoholic or aqueous alcoholic composition which comprises, on a weight basis, of the total composition:
    a therapeutically effective amount of hormonal drug;
    a skin penetration enhancing effective amount, in the range of from about 0.5 to 25%, of a C 7 to C 14 -hydrocarbyl substituted 1,3-dioxolane, 1,3-dioxane or acetal (which may hereinafter be collectively referred to as SPE);
    0 to about 30% of 1,2-diol having from 3 to 6 carbon atoms;
    at least about 35% of volatile alcohol selected from the group consisting of ethanol, propanol and mixture thereof;
    0 to about 40% water; and,
    optionally, a gelling agent effective to thicken the composition to avoid or minimize run-off when applied to the skin.
    In preferred embodiments of this aspect of the invention the ingredients are included in the formulation in the following ranges:
    from about 0.01 to 10%, preferably 1 to 6%, especially preferably 1.0 to 4% hormone;
    from about 2 to 15%, preferably 5 to 10% of SPE wherein the hydrocarbyl group substituent has from about 7 to 10 carbon atoms;
    from about 5 to 30%, preferably 5 to 20% propylene glycol;
    from about 35 to 70% ethanol, isopropanol or mixture thereof;
    from about 0 to 35% water; and,
    up to about 4% of cellulosic thickener.

  19. If you read the link it states that they add a Chemical Penetration Enhancer (CPE) to increase penetration: ...have enhanced penetration through skin by including in the formulation 2-n-nonyl-1,3-dioxolane or other hydrocarbyl derivative of 1,3-dioxolane or 1,3-dioxane or acetal, as skin penetration enhancing compound

    Honestly, I really do not want to argue with you. You sound pretty set in your mind so have a ball. Rub as much hand sanitizer on as you like.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  20. I'm trying one more formula here without the hand sanitizer, or the lotion base/acrylate thickener. This one should be it, I think I've got the hang of this now. Before when I was having trouble it was because I was leaving out the water.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by jonny21 View Post
    If you read the link it states that they add a Chemical Penetration Enhancer (CPE) to increase penetration: ...have enhanced penetration through skin by including in the formulation 2-n-nonyl-1,3-dioxolane or other hydrocarbyl derivative of 1,3-dioxolane or 1,3-dioxane or acetal, as skin penetration enhancing compound

    Honestly, I really do not want to argue with you. You sound pretty set in your mind so have a ball. Rub as much hand sanitizer on as you like.
    I was never set on using hand sanitizer in the first place, if you read what I wrote in the next post after I posted a pic, I said Oh my other formula gelled up too in which I didn't use any hand sanitizer.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    Poopy
    Penetrate doesn't seem that cheap to me, and I don't like it. It's oily, runny, it separates and all the powder falls down to the bottom. The stuff I'm making is like t-gel, which used to cost me 20 bucks for 4 ounces. I was thinking of offering up 10 oz for about 12 bucks.
    I dont know what your relatively thinking but 12 bucks for 8oz penetrate isnt much, the DMSO in gel form would thicken it up as well and keep it from crashing so much..... JMO but how do you know youll even get close to the same absorption rate with your formula considering your not using nearly the same amount of stuff in a penatrate DMSO combo for pure penetration.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by poopypants View Post
    I dont know what your relatively thinking but 12 bucks for 8oz penetrate isnt much, the DMSO in gel form would thicken it up as well and keep it from crashing so much..... JMO but how do you know youll even get close to the same absorption rate with your formula considering your not using nearly the same amount of stuff in a penatrate DMSO combo for pure penetration.
    12.00 for penetrate+7.00 shipping, 8.00 dmso plus 6.00 shipping = kinda spendy

    I can only speculate the ammounts of the ingredients that's in penetrate. I'm more or less copying the ratio's for prescription test gel. While I don't have the chemical penetration enhancer available due to high cost of hazard shipping, I can use limonene at the same ratio the test gel would use for it's enhancer, which is 10% So I'm using the proper ratio's is what I'm saying.

    There are also advantages to using a gel base, which I've already listed but are, a gel base product spreads the hormone more evenly and holds it on the skin better. That alone more than makes up for anything my stuff might be lacking, you know? You get even distribution for proper absorbtion, and not nearly as much product loss due to it flaking off as you would with a watery base product.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by warriorway View Post
    12.00 for penetrate+7.00 shipping, 8.00 dmso plus 6.00 shipping = kinda spendy

    I can only speculate the ammounts of the ingredients that's in penetrate. I'm more or less copying the ratio's for prescription test gel. While I don't have the chemical penetration enhancer available due to high cost of hazard shipping, I can use limonene at the same ratio the test gel would use for it's enhancer, which is 10% So I'm using the proper ratio's is what I'm saying.

    There are also advantages to using a gel base, which I've already listed but are, a gel base product spreads the hormone more evenly and holds it on the skin better. That alone more than makes up for anything my stuff might be lacking, you know? You get even distribution for proper absorbtion, and not nearly as much product loss due to it flaking off as you would with a watery base product.
    I would hope that you also considered what the maximum concentration of your carrier will be to provide maximum absorption. Now I know for sure that Penetrate will hold up to a 50% final concentration (50mg/ml) of test. I would assume that since you are modeling your gel off of commercial Test gels it would achieve similar concentrations (1%) for maximum efficacy. Do you have any idea how many ml of gel you will need to apply to reach a decent dosage? do you actually think you are going to recreate the wheel with your carrier?

    I use phlojel with d-limonene and dmge and can get 100mg/ml without residual and i would venture to guess a much higher absorption rate than your formula. Granted, phlojel costs more but when you factor in absorption, concentration and ease of application I think the cost is insignificant.
    Give a man a fish, feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, feed him for life. Lao Tse 6th century BC

  25. Quote Originally Posted by jonny21 View Post
    I would hope that you also considered what the maximum concentration of your carrier will be to provide maximum absorption. Now I know for sure that Penetrate will hold up to a 50% final concentration (50mg/ml) of test. I would assume that since you are modeling your gel off of commercial Test gels it would achieve similar concentrations (1%) for maximum efficacy. Do you have any idea how many ml of gel you will need to apply to reach a decent dosage? do you actually think you are going to recreate the wheel with your carrier?

    I use phlojel with d-limonene and dmge and can get 100mg/ml without residual and i would venture to guess a much higher absorption rate than your formula. Granted, phlojel costs more but when you factor in absorption, concentration and ease of application I think the cost is insignificant.
    It should be similar to penetrate. What are you trying to get at about recreating the wheel? I'm not trying to recreate anything! I'm just defending my thread. You tell me ethylene sucks, when I have tons of research where ethylene is the ideal solvent. You haven't even read half the things I wrote in this thread. If you did you would know I had more than one formula for a t-gel that worked, and you would know I haven't tried to see how much 1t-4ad powder I can get in it yet. It should be up to 5% with 4 being ideal.
    I'm not mad at you, but this is my thread and I will defend it. I have researched tons, I know how to make this stuff, believe it or not, I don't care. I've been on this board longer than you by the way.
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