too much??

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    too much??


    This is my first post on this board, so i just wanted to say whats up to everyone on here.

    Anyway now for my question. I have done a few ph cycles in the past and now i'm planning another. For this cycle i was thinking about using around 500mg of 1-test per day and 1g of 4-ad per day, using a transdermal method. Is this too much? Post cycle i would use 6oxo.

    My stats are:
    Weight-222lbs
    waist-36.75inches
    age-20
    height-6ft

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    That sounds like quite a bit of hormones. Are you trying to bulk or cut?

    That sounds like way too much 4ad, you'd probably be seeing a lot of water retention and more sides than you might like.

    Maybe some bros can give you some more input.
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    I personally kind og like it. I ran 1200 mg 4-AD transdermally and loved the hell out of it. I used viratase and it prevented water retention. The hormones were worse than on test. I was looking at 96 year old women with a gleam in my eye..lol

    No sides for me when I ran at that dosage. I wouldn't recommend it for a newbie, but if your experienced, give it a shot.
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    Originally posted by wardog
    The hormones were worse than on test. I was looking at 96 year old women with a gleam in my eye..lol  
    Ow Ow!
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    I'm bulking right now so i dont mind holding water. My worry is getting gyno. would this happen with 1g of 4-ad transdermally?

    wardog, the only side was drooling over an old woman? LOL you didnt get any nippple irritation.
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    Wardog....what dose of viritase did you use?? and for how long??

     

     

    LG.
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    Originally posted by Lifeguard
    Wardog....what dose of viritase did you use??
    If I remember right from Wardog's old post on BB.com, he ran this at 150 mg/day. FYI - Viratase comes in 50mg caps, so that's 3x spread throughout the day.

    and for how long??
    Not sure about this, but I would guess that he ran it the whole time he was on the 4-AD topical, since this was a cutting cycle. Not sure how long he was cutting for, however.
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    Originally posted by MA$$BUILDER
    I'm bulking right now so i dont mind hold water. My worry is getting gyno. would this happen with 1g of 4-ad transdermally?

    wardog, the only side was drooling over an old woman? LOL you didnt get any nippple irritation.
    Keep in mind that 1 gram of 4-AD daily will give roughly 400 mg absorbed with a good transdermal forumula.  This is 2.8 grams weekly!  Not for the inexperienced or timid of heart...

    Will that high of a dose increase the chance of gyno?  Hell yes...have your ancillaries on hand before starting.

    I am a staunch advocate of the lowest dose to illicit desired response.  I would highly suggest you review your past cycles and evaluate gains in terms of doseages and go from there.  It is a common misconception that double the dose will give double the gains...this is NEVER the case.

    Chemo
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    Yes, 400mg could get into the system, but doesnt only 15% get converted to actual test? If so then take that 400mg and times it by .15 and that would be 60mg. At 60mg per day times 7 would be 420mg of test per week.
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    Originally posted by MA$$BUILDER
    Yes, 400mg could get into the system, but doesnt only 15% get converted to actual test? If so then take that 400mg and times it by .15 and that would be 60mg. At 60mg per day times 7 would be 420mg of test per week.
    I'm a firm believer in the inherent activity of unconverted compounds like 4-AD.

    Chemo 
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    Since 4-ad is a diol doesnt it have no aromatisation prior to conversion? If so that would make the side effects still very low compared to 400mg a week of real test.
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    But 4ad has an anabolic effect in its un-converted form. I have heard that 4AD is 85% as anabolic as test but thats an over-estimate. Take notice that Wardog said 4AD had more effect than test (comparable doses after conversion), so there is something more to this than just conversion.
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    I'm getting my info. from Big Cat's article, and in the readings i get the impression that 4-ad does nothing until its converted to test. Is Big Cat wrong?
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    Here is the article:

    -diol or 4AD (4-androsten-3,17-diol)

    Target Hormone: Testosterone
    Molecular name of target hormone: 4-androstene-3-one,17ß-ol
    Target conversion: High (15.76 %)
    Conversion enzyme: 3-ß-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase (3HSD)
    DHT conversion: low, only from target hormone
    Estrogenic effects: no aromatisation from compound, some from target hormone

    According to many, this is the very best prohormones have to offer, but I beg to differ. Nonetheless my second choice. Because it's a diol it has no aromatisation prior to conversion, significantly lessening the risk of excessive estrogenic formation. It also doesn't make a direct conversion to DHT. Its structurally incapable of doing so. DHT is still a risk, because of the higher amount of testosterine produced and the fact that testosterine (through 5-alpha-reducates) can be converted to DHT in the Sertoli cells. This makes this a definite winner. If it doesn't give you results due to bad conversion, it also won't give you the side effects, because basically if it doesn't convert it can't make estrogens or DHT. That only makes the risk increase with the gains, and makes 4AD one of the safer prohormones.

    4-diol is also by far the most anabolic of the three testosterone prohormones, offering almost three times as much conversion as andro and over 20 times higher than DHEA or 5-diol. In the real world that translates to 310% greater increase in testosterone and 256% greater increase in free testosterone (available) than andro (based on results compared to a control group) and 129% more anabolic than 5-diol¹

    For testosterone conversion and pure legal anabolic, androgenic action, nothing beats 4-diol at this point. Especially once you pass 30 and your test levels begin to taper, the effects of 4-diol will exert a major effect on both gains and strength. 4-diol, after all, also seems to have a strong pre-workout energizing effect and a positive influence on libido.

    ¹ Ristovic L.J., Cobanovic M., Kem Ind, 24(7), 389-92
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    Originally posted by MA$$BUILDER
    I'm getting my info. from Big Cat's article, and in the readings i get the impression that 4-ad does nothing until its converted to test. Is Big Cat wrong?
    BigCat has been taken to school a few times my Pat Arnold and Bill L.

    Hey...4-AD's structure is so similar to Test that I would agree w/ BDC about the "anabolic activity before conversion"...

    And 4-AD was shown to be 95% as anabolic a Test....but I seriously doubt that....maybe like 65-75%....

    BigCat is not God....his articles were written a while ago and some of them are out-dated....I started with his articles and then started to become more interested then went to the boards ans coversed with Bill L and Pat Arnold and picked their brains...then I went to other sources of info.....like other sites on the internet that offered technical info on prohormones....there arent many...so you gotta look.

    Then came this site and all the bros on it...with all our combined knowledge, we are going to become one of the best boards out there.

     

    LG.
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    Yeah Big Cat isnt always right. So PA and Bill said that its still anabolic in its unconverted state?

    By the way thanks for all the help, there is still much to be learned about ph.
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    Originally posted by MA$$BUILDER

    By the way thanks for all the help, there is still much to be learned about ph.
    Hey, even with all that I know about prohormones....I still dont know jack compared to other guys on this board....most of us still have a long way to go

     

    LG.

    PS. I personally have not "heard" PA or Bill say anything about anabolic activity of unconverted PH's....but I have read other studies that have info on that....I cant remember where I did....so dont ask for links or quotes

     

     
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    Shadowjack, I ran it at six caps a day spread out to 3x a day. I ran it for 4 weeks just to cut, and it worked very well for me. No bloat to mention.
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    Wardog, my bad on reporting your dosage at 150mg per day instead of 300mg. You know what they say about the memory being the first thing to go...

    I agree with you on the no bloating issue. I've used Viratase myself, on a One / 4-AD homebrew cycle earlier this year. I ran Viratase at 3 caps a day, and it took away the bloating (I added Viratase about 2 weeks into the cycle). Strong stuff, even at the 150mg per day that I was using. Of course, my 4-AD dosage was a little lower than yours. Only 400mg per day, instead of 1200mg.
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