Transdermal Adrenosterone (11-oxo)
- 05-13-2010, 11:21 AM
- 05-25-2010, 08:07 PM
well, you asked the wrong one, this is the first time I got this bulk powder and i have never used penetrate.
The only thing I found today is, it even dissolved less well than formenstane. Formestane is already a pain if you want to put it in anything with water, but at least it's quite soluble in DMSO and the DMSO solution can be added in 98% ethanol or oil without any precepitation.
I tried to mix 1 gram of 11 oxo into 5ml of DMSO today, it's not good. Even dilute that with 20 times pure alcohol, it's still not dissolved well. This dilution is already too big volume thus not practical in sense of 200mg/day dosage.
DHEA is much much easier to handle.
- 06-02-2010, 11:25 AM
narrabooth, it is isoc, cant pm yet, try adding dmso, little by little to aid in the dissolving, anyone else with any other ideas please chime in, thanks.
06-04-2010, 12:13 PM
1g 11-oxo can dissolve in 15ml DMSO, if you heat up to 70'c
and after it cools down, not many particles appear. So I got a room-temperture-stable 67mg/ml solution.
However it's pure DMSO and I can't apply it on my skin directly; I got to dilute it at least 3 times in 70% alcohol, which means in the end i need to put on 9ml of final solution to get 200mg of 11-oxo, and there would be 3ml DMSO total in that shot.
The feeling of applying such a big volume of DMSO liquid on skin is not so great. After alcohol vaporized all the rest sticky thing on your skin would be DMSO+water.
I will try to make a 100mg/ml solution in DMSO and see if I can put in pure alcohol when it's still hot (I don't think it will be stable in room temperture but lots of alcohol diluting might help).
06-04-2010, 12:33 PM
I did not realize that it was that hard to dissolve, sounds like form, the only time I used form myself I was gritty constantly. I have never used td 11-oxo, the only td's I used have been test base, form and tren pellets. the test and tren I used straight dmso if I remember right and that was harsh, I remember smoke coming off my skin and under black lights you could see where it was applied, I do not recommend, I was young and dumb.
To be honest, if this was me, I would scrap the transdermal idea and use it orally. Somewhere there has risen a myth of transdermal 11-oxo being great. On another forum PA stated he thought it was maybe twice as powerful mg for mg, so 200 mgs would yield around same gains as 400-500 mgs orally (somewhere people have begun believing this would equate to about a gram orally, or people think about spot fat loss, imho neither of which is true), for the hassle and the cost not a good return. Also, to high dose with transdermal you have limiting factor of obvious solubility and then application area, whereas you dont have those with the caps. I dont think $$ you would come out much ahead. For cort reduction PA said that some of the metablites of 11-oxo made in the liver are also strong cort reducers. To sum this up, orally is the best way to go. I have seen old logs on td 11-oxo, and never saw anything much different than oral and dosage used was anywhere from 100-300mgs daily. Bulk 11-oxo is great product, glad it is around, but think people will be disappointed at transdermal use, you may use less 11-oxo, but when you factor in cost of carriers, etc, oral is way to go.
I dont like transdermals except for those rare things where oral absorption is horrendously low (11-oxo does not really fit this), and/or pinning is too painful (1-test, bold prop/ace, even test base for some people). These are just my opinions, I could be wrong, as I have never used it transdermally.
06-09-2010, 07:44 AM
strangely, 11-oxo is even harder to dissolve than form in sense of using DMSO. my current maximum conc of 11-oxo in DMSO is about 70mg/ml, while formestane I can do about 150mg/ml. The only difference is 11-oxo tolerate water slightly better: the 11-oxo/DMSO solution can be diluted in 70% alcohol, while form/DMSO one can only do in ~96% alcohol.
pure DMSO is harsh because when pure DMSO mix with water, it generates heat, so pure DMSO can burn your skin. As long as there are some water in it (even 80% DMSO) it won't burn. DMSO will be absorbed and give you garlic odor in big dose, but there is no evidence suggesting it's harmful. For my own experience, 25% DMSO in pure alcohol won't burn me at all (unlike some commercial TD base), although i am not sure how effective it is. I won't know exactly anyway unless I can test my urine on mass spectrometry.
The only problem is DMSO increase skin permeability, so one should avoid using any chemical skin product after applying DMSO. Other than that, DMSO is a bit sticky-gross on skin when there is water.
For the bioavailablity of 11-oxo, I think it's a bit tricky. People say it works at the dose of 300mg or more. I have seen a paper (as I posted in supplement article sub-forum) analysing the urine of someone who took only one capsule (75mg). There is no quantity analysis in that paper though.
However, you just need to think the fact: it almost doesn't dissolve in water, you would know the bioavailability can't be high. Someone suggested taking oilly food at the same time, but my experiment shows that the solubility in food oil is not that high either. (at most 10mg/ml after I heat the mixture to frying temp)
We all know that our guts can't absorb something not dissolved. So those who orally took 11-oxo and saw effects could react to just low dose of 11-oxo; otherwise the company made another form of 11-oxo to increase the solubility?
06-09-2010, 08:50 AM
06-09-2010, 10:05 AM
06-11-2010, 07:49 AM
11-keto is the target hormone of 11-oxo, so effects will be very similar as 11-oxo, reminiscent of how related the effects of 1-ad and 1-t are to eac other.
PA did theorize that the 11-kt spray would be about 3x's as potent mg for mg to oral 11-oxo. For what its worth, I have never heard PA talk about topical 11-oxo, I have only heard of him personally using it orally, although he did say that he uses topical 11-t.
06-13-2010, 05:45 PM
On oral vs. transdermal 11oxo, keep in mind that the pharmacokinetics will be different. Pat Arnold has guesstimated that 11oxo has a half-life of three hours -- so very short. Taking a single oral dose will spike up body levels, and then they will pretty quickly diminish. Transdermal will give you a slow release.
Does the slow release give you an added benefit? I'd just be guessing, but it might make the anti-catabolic part more effective. But if you are timing your dose around a workout, the pulse might be better.
I remember that PA said that transdermal 11oxo should work and might be a good idea, but that he had never personally got around to it.
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