[Ninjo]

I've been reading threads both on this board and on others and need some clarification on whether it would be okay for me to make a transdermal 4-AD out of my Ergopharm Select 300 pills. The info I've seen thus far is contradictory to say the least.

The main arguments against doing this seem to be that the fillers in the pills would either be harmful if mixed in a transdermal solution or that they would clog the spray bottle. Could someone who perhaps has tried this with 4-AD caps chime in and clear things up for me?

[thesinner]

Haven't tried this, but maybe I can help . Read the back of the label, and let's see what filler's we're working with.

We can always pre-dissolve the hormone in a solvent (which the fillers would not be soluble in), evaporate the solvent, and add in the remaining hormone to the TD carrier.

[Ninjo]

Originally Posted by thesinner

Haven't tried this, but maybe I can help . Read the back of the label, and let's see what filler's we're working with.

We can always pre-dissolve the hormone in a solvent (which the fillers would not be soluble in), evaporate the solvent, and add in the remaining hormone to the TD carrier.

Sounds interesting...okay, the fillers are as follows:

gelatin
modified cornstarch
magnesium stearate
silica

I believe the last filler listed is the contents of the little pillow pack often included in pill bottles to observe moisture.

Appreciate the help!

[thesinner]

[quote=Ninjo;784118]
I believe the last filler listed is the contents of the little pillow pack often included in pill bottles to observe moisture./QUOTE]
You are correct! Silica is a potent desicant.

gelatin
modified cornstarch
magnesium stearate


Ok, we should be able to dissolve gelatin and modified cornstarch in distilled water. Whatever sinks to the bottom will be 4-AD and magnesium stearate. Now, I'm not 100% sure as how to get rid of the magnesium stearate, but we've got over 2/3's of the filler done with, I'd go with 'good enough' but I'm not the one trying to get the results from it. If I can figure something out, I'll be sure to let you know.

[Ninjo]

Originally Posted by thesinner

Ok, we should be able to dissolve gelatin and modified cornstarch in distilled water. Whatever sinks to the bottom will be 4-AD and magnesium stearate.

First of all, thanks again for your help.

Now for the stupid question - how would I evaporate the solvent, distilled water in this case, to end up with just the 4-AD/magnesium stearate powder mixture??

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by Ninjo

First of all, thanks again for your help.

Now for the stupid question - how would I evaporate the solvent, distilled water in this case, to end up with just the 4-AD/magnesium stearate powder mixture??

Ok, I kinda switched gears after seeing what fillers we had to work with. Evaporation is not needed in this process.

Here's how we'll go about it:
1) get a big assed bowl, and fill it with distilled water (the more water, the more filler gets removed).
2) Break the caps, and dump the powder in the bowl.
3) Stir it up a little bit (to make sure we get all the filler dissolved)
4) Pour out the water, leaving whatever solids remain at the bottom of the bowl.


Whatever is left in the bottom of the bowl is what you want. Let it air dry over night, and you should be good to go.

[Ninjo]

Originally Posted by thesinner

Ok, I kinda switched gears after seeing what fillers we had to work with. Evaporation is not needed in this process.

Here's how we'll go about it:
1) get a big assed bowl, and fill it with distilled water (the more water, the more filler gets removed).
2) Break the caps, and dump the powder in the bowl.
3) Stir it up a little bit (to make sure we get all the filler dissolved)
4) Pour out the water, leaving whatever solids remain at the bottom of the bowl.


Whatever is left in the bottom of the bowl is what you want. Let it air dry over night, and you should be good to go.

Okay sounds good...I remember reading in another post some time ago of a similar technique that poured the dissolved liquid through a coffee filter...do you think that would be a good idea to ensure as little of the active as possible is lost?

[thesinner]

yeah, you can filter it with a coffee filter if you want. Whatever makes it easier to ensure that you obtain all of the solids.

[Ninjo]

Originally Posted by thesinner

yeah, you can filter it with a coffee filter if you want. Whatever makes it easier to ensure that you obtain all of the solids.

Cool...one last question though, how can we be sure that the 4-AD powder does not dissolve in the distilled water?

[thesinner]

steroids won't dissolve in water

[Ninjo]

Originally Posted by thesinner

gelatin
modified cornstarch
magnesium stearate


Ok, we should be able to dissolve gelatin and modified cornstarch in distilled water. Whatever sinks to the bottom will be 4-AD and magnesium stearate. Now, I'm not 100% sure as how to get rid of the magnesium stearate, but we've got over 2/3's of the filler done with, I'd go with 'good enough' but I'm not the one trying to get the results from it.

I've been thinking about this a little more and doing some research...I believe the gelatin that's listed may be the caps themelves and not an additive to the powder.

If that's the case, then the only fillers would be the cornstarch and magnesium stearate.

Given that the magnesium stearate has a molecular weight of approx. 590, it will neither dissolve in the transport solution nor be absorbed into my bloodstream...I am not really concerned about clogging the sprayer because I think I will use a syringe to dose anyways...I'm therefore now thinking I will try dissolving the powder directly into the solution without trying to remove any of the fillers. Can the cornstarch cause me any harm if it is absorbed transdermally?

In any case, I have ordered a scale that will hopefully provide me with an indication of how much filler is in each cap. It measures to 0.01g so if a cap comes out to 0.30, the implication is that there is less than 10mg of filler per cap and I will be more comfortable dumping the caps directly into the transdermal solution.

Hope that all makes sense.

[thesinner]

Originally Posted by Ninjo

I've been thinking about this a little more and doing some research...I believe the gelatin that's listed may be the caps themelves and not an additive to the powder.

If that's the case, then the only fillers would be the cornstarch and magnesium stearate.

Given that the magnesium stearate has a molecular weight of approx. 590, it will neither dissolve in the transport solution nor be absorbed into my bloodstream...I am not really concerned about clogging the sprayer because I think I will use a syringe to dose anyways...I'm therefore now thinking I will try dissolving the powder directly into the solution without trying to remove any of the fillers. Can the cornstarch cause me any harm if it is absorbed transdermally?

In any case, I have ordered a scale that will hopefully provide me with an indication of how much filler is in each cap. It measures to 0.01g so if a cap comes out to 0.30, the implication is that there is less than 10mg of filler per cap and I will be more comfortable dumping the caps directly into the transdermal solution.

Hope that all makes sense.

1) Molecular weight has nothing to do with solubility.

2) I wouldn't imagine cornstach being an issue. The worst thing that would happen is that you'd get trivial amounts of carbohydrates taken into your bloodstream. I'm not sure what carbohydrates in featured in cornstarch, but some of them might be to big to even be absorbed.

[Ninjo]

Okay Sinner, I have one more idea...let me know what you think please...I will pour the contents of the caps (filters and all) into the transdermal solution...the 4-ad will dissolve in the solution with just the right amount of heating and vigorous shaking...the cornstarch and magnesium stearate will presumably not dissolve...then I will pass the solution through a coffee filter and voila, transdermal solution and 4-ad passes through and the fillers remain in the coffee filter...okay let me have it, why won't this work?!

[thesinner]

No, the filler will more than likely dissolve as well. The coffee filter will also abosorb a few doses worth of your 4AD solution like a sponge. I think your best bet is to let it all dissolve, and not worry about the fillers. I doubt that the traces of mag stearate and cornstarch in solution are going to have any significant hindering or other negative effects.

[Ninjo]

Originally Posted by thesinner

No, the filler will more than likely dissolve as well. The coffee filter will also abosorb a few doses worth of your 4AD solution like a sponge. I think your best bet is to let it all dissolve, and not worry about the fillers. I doubt that the traces of mag stearate and cornstarch in solution are going to have any significant hindering or other negative effects.

Thanks bro...I think you're right...anyway, I won't be doing this until end of June or early July to run along superdrol...will let everyone know how it goes.