Finaplix, can I save it?
- 01-18-2007, 09:59 PM
Finaplix, can I save it?
I am hoping someone can help me out, and yes i have searched the board to find this answer but can't. I have made this in the past. I attempted to make one cart finaplix for transdermal. I wasn't thinking right and used a whole yellow bottle of heet to dissolve the pellets ,filtered, i then removed the ester with lye let it sit for a day etc. Now once i've added the distilled water to the mixture it turns white but doesnt clump up just stays a white liquid. I think I used too much heet is there any way to save this or is it going down the drain? I would appreciate anyones thoughts , thank you in advance.
- 01-19-2007, 12:13 AM
Fina crystals are hard to get out of solution, the water has to be added slowly.
You can let the whole mixture dry out completely, (methenol takes weeks) unfortunatly the time thing may play havoc with the sodium hydroxide you added. It will probably deystroy the remainder of the hormone with enough time.
I know everyone says use tren base, but honestly with molecular weight of tren ace being not that high using it for a transdermal is very practicle. I know many frown but it will get through the skin in respectable quanities.
The amount wasted on lower absorbtion is less than the material wasted removing the ester.
Personally if you are going to use fina, I would just crush the pellets up and use them in your transdermal recipe.
You could always get some powders from china, since tren base sells a little more expensive than the test powders do, a minimum $$$ order would be a very descrete package and would likely make it through no issues.
- 01-19-2007, 09:36 AM
Thanks for the response fatsuperman, appreciate it.
02-01-2007, 12:14 PM
Not to hi-jack your thread, but what does your finaplix cycle look like? I am considering TD tren, but don't have enough literature on it to make a decision.
Also, If you run a fan over it, that will lower the fugacity of the solvent, and it'll dry tons quicker.
02-02-2007, 02:24 AM
Yea, I bet a fan would help, but it won't deal with the fact that after 12 hours or so (depending on the concentration) the tren will have been consumed by the base.
02-02-2007, 05:14 AM
02-03-2007, 02:32 AM
I'm no chemist, but I would love to know what the molar minimum required to saponify the esters from
I did a lot of experementing and found an ideal time vs. concentration to sapponify test prop to tne. I would love to know what the idea amount would be so the time element wouldn't be so critical.
I've never seen the correct molar ratios posted to sapponify either
02-03-2007, 08:37 AM
Let's see Molar weight of:
Tren Ace is 330.42 g/mol. So just divide the mass of your tren ace by that number, and that's how many moles you've got.
Tren base is 270.37 g/mol. So 163.7mg of tren base is equivalent to 200mg tren ace.
Test Prop is 360.4 g/mol. Test base is 288.3. 160 mg of Test best is equal to 200mg of test.
Last edited by thesinner; 02-03-2007 at 08:46 AM. Reason: added t prop
02-03-2007, 09:23 AM
got that, so how much sodium hydroxide would be required to sapponify
1 gram of tren ace
1 gram of test prop
02-03-2007, 11:05 AM
I figured you would ask that. It depends on the concentration of what you've got. What are you using? Are you using a pre-made solution? Does it have a concentration written on the label?
If you've got straight up lye. NaOH (lye) is about 40 g/mol. Thus, to saponify 1g of test Prop and 1 gram of Tren Ace, you should only need about 250mg of NaOH.
Here's the math:
Tren Ace: 1000mg * 1mmol/330.42mg (tren ace) * 40 mg (NaOH) / 1 mmol = 121.058 mg of NaOH
Test Prop: 1000mg * 1mmol/360.4mg (test Prop) * 40mg (NaOH)/ 1 mmol = 111.111 mg of NaOH
121.058mg + 111.111mg = 232.169
PM me if you ever need any help with conversions. I'm a junior chemical engineering student, I can do these in my sleep.
02-03-2007, 05:23 PM
I think this belongs in this forum it is good information.
So basically most folks supersaturate methanol with the hormone powder. In other words placing an amount of powder in a container and using the bare minimum of "heet" to pull it into solution.
Here is the technique I found that I trialed and errored my way into. Remember these are crystals I have purified via supersaturation/selective recrystalization to remove the estrogen.
so basically this is my test prop stripping technique, critique it from your knowledge and see if it could be improved or simplified. (my apologies to those who have seen this before)
1. dissolve crystals in 30 cc methenol (heet) per each gram of crystals used
2. In a seperate small glass container dissolve .5 grams of NAOH per each gram of crystals used.
3. In this second small glass container Add 10 cc of distilled water per each .5 grams of NAOH used. In other words if you were converting 2 grams of Test Prop crystals you should be adding 1 gram of NAOH and 20 cc of distilled water
4. Add the super saturated NAOH solution to the heet/test prop solution, and weight exactly 2 hours / 120 minutes. Any more time any your crystals will turn yellow and you will lose test base yield. Less time means you won't convert all of your test prop to test base.
5. Drip wise add water to the solution, adding water more slowly creates better crystals, that are easier to filter.
6. Filter this via coffee filter and rinse with Distilled water until the rinse through water has the same PH as the distilled water. I don't trust PH strips, I prefer a PH meter but I can imagine most people don't have one lying around. Since you are only using this as a transdermal you only have to get it close enough not to create skin irritation.
7. Dry the crystals, if you are unsure if the conversion worked you can test the melting point, if it is above 145 C then you have stripped the ester. If you are still hovering in the 120 - 125 C range you still have Test Prop.
The conversion should yield around 70% of the Test Prop weight. Remember that test base only weights 83% of what test prop does so if you conversion is above 75% you probably have some ester still left on the test.
02-03-2007, 06:41 PM
2.) I would imagine you could use less NaOH, occasionally stirring the mixture, and still get a pretty good yield. In the conversions I posted earlier, we saw that an equimolar solution was only 111mg per gram of test prop. I think 0.25g might work fairly well. Of course, I've never homebrewed cow-pellets, I'm just going off my knowledge of chemistry.
5.) Add really cold water, put your solution container in an icebath, and try to drop the temperature of your solution as much as possible. This will give you a higher yield because coldness lowers solubility.
8.) As an 8th step, you could try, after filtering, take your filtered solution, and stick it in the freezer. It may get some of that extra test out of solution, and it's not like it would hurt to try.
02-03-2007, 07:20 PM
Yea, I do swirl the mixture occassionally in the jar, you have to be careful though, because if you solution deposits itself on the side of the glass it will dry, and you will loose some of your yield to glass residue.
I like the idea of cold water and cold solution! I could also use the cold thing when recrystalizing the solution.
I definite to try if I ever do again. With test powder so cheap it seems silly, but this arcane knowledge may come in handy some day. The minimum orders for powder are very scary stuff, so if I get a good enough technique I might not order any more.
BTW, are you aware of the debate concerning whether the NAOH will "salt" out the estradoil in the pellets? Some claim it will and others claim it will not. You may not be an organic chemist, so it may be a more specialized question.
Additionally, I wonder if the cool solution with cool water added to form crystals, would improve the yield of the pesty fina conversions. The tren crystals are notoriosly hard to get to form, you have to add the water at a ridiculesly low rate, like a couple cc's every few hours, in my experience.
02-03-2007, 07:39 PM
I'm not aware of the methods used for separating estradiol. What does this process look like?
02-03-2007, 08:27 PM
well most people use the mystery substance from the kit guys like universal kits. No one really knows what it is except them.
One chemical that gets mentioned is Sodium tert. butylate, but I dunno, if it is or not.
whatever this "mystery e solubulizer" is, it supposidly removes the estrogen from the mix, and leaves the test prop intact.
Some claim that using sodium hydroxide on the syno pellets, cleaves the ester, and "salts" the estradoil so it washes away with the water.... (this is a matter of debate)
The method I have used consists of dazed's "syno solution" google it if you want to see it in full. Basically you super saturate methenol with the test/estrogen crystals you get from the pellets, then you add the bare minimum of water to get crystals. Super saturation and selective recrystalization.
Then you dry the crystals, and do the process again and again until you have only pure test prop left.
The theory being that solution will be supersaturated with test prop and the test will be on the edge of crystalizing since there is 200mg of test to 20 mg of estrogen. The estrogen will be diluted in the solution and will be less likely to produce crystals. Each time the result will be more % test and less % estrogen.
It is way too labor intensive for anyone except a goober like me who likes to tinker with this stuff. Espcecially since test base power is very very cheap per gram.
02-03-2007, 09:19 PM
I believe the mystery solublizer is sodium tertbutoxide. Not sure how it makes estradiol more soluble though. Organic chemistry is funny like that. No logic, just dumb luck and a theory as to how it works.
I'm wondering right now if there might be a process to turn estro into andro or test (andro being the easier of the two). It probably wouldn't be very cost effective, but at least interesting. I'll keep you posted if I find any interesting reagents.
When you do TD cycles, how much do you take? I've been looking into running fina over the summer.
02-03-2007, 11:50 PM
Well as probably has been mentioned before, doing a Fina only cycle whether TD or IM, is a unadvisable.
You should seriously seriously consider using Test with it.
As for dosages, most beginner dosages for Fina (Tren Ace) seem to float in at the 50 mg to 75 mg eod. That is along side some test in the stack.
Using Phlo jel which clinical studies with test base show it to be absorbed at a rate between 10 and 50%, it starts to be a little bit of a guessing game. Most user of TD's estimate the absorbtion to be between 25 to 40%.
My personal opinion is that phlo jel runs at the low end of that at around 25 to 30%. If you work with that figure you probably won't be disappointed with your td cyle.
BTW, from your knowledge does the supersaturation, selective recrystalization method for seperating test from estrogen seem to have any merit?
The biggest mistake and the biggest reason people claim TD's don't work is because they overestimate the absorbtion rate.
With that being said you should apply 40 to 75mgs (two times daily) to be equivalant to injecting 50 to 75 mg eod of tren ace.
02-04-2007, 12:22 PM
Thanks, I was really wondering how they stacked up against IM injections. I take it test is recommended to fight against tren-****.
The supersaturation/recrystallization method holds some logic. Judging from their structures, Estradiol (notice the suffix 'diol') has two hydroxyl groups, and would be more soluble in HEET; therefore, test would crystallize before estro. You'll still get some estra in your product, but more test than estra.
02-04-2007, 04:17 PM
Yep, test is to stop the dreaded fina d1ck.
IM injections are superior, hands down, but many people dismiss the effectiveness of carefully thought out transdermal methods. Yes, many of the folks are just needle *********, but there are several other reasons folks do transdermals as well.
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