Transdermal Carrier Absorption

CHAPS

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How much actually product would you be getting if your using T-gel? In the near future i'd like to use some tren base+Test Base in t-gel (seperate bottles) and i just wanna know how much i'll actually be getting into my system, isn't it like 30%?
 
Iron Warrior

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I got with 30% and it seems to be fair assumption
 
Mulletsoldier

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Yeah, 30% seems to be a fair estimate. There are always things you can do to try and increase absorption though.
 

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What can be done to increase absorption?
 
jonny21

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What can be done to increase absorption?
Rotate application locations, add chemical penetration enhancers e.g. DMSO, DMFA, D-Limonene, remove hair from application area, exfolliate.
 

TUCKER

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whoa whoa whoa...where did you get ahold of some t-gel?
 

TUCKER

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does anyome still sell that or does chemo even still make it?
 

Moyer

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EDIT: CNW used to carry it. :sad:
 
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BioHazzard

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Make your own. It is very simple. Even if you just throw together alcohol, IPM, and a few PE, you can get excellent result. Excellent as in result not that different from the complex formular.
 
jonny21

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Make your own. It is very simple. Even if you just throw together alcohol, IPM, and a few PE, you can get excellent result. Excellent as in result not that different from the complex formular.
Alcohol is not the best base since it tends to dry skin which decreases absorption. Penetrate is a decent alternative and is available at one of the board sponsors (Nutraplanet). I have never used it but Universalkits also make a carrier. I have some experience with quite a few penetration enhancers, check out my transdermal log for details.
http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/39429-40-day-transdermal-test-oral-turinabol.html
 

BioHazzard

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Alcohol is the solvent. Even Penetrate has Isopropyl alcohol.

You can use either Isopropyl or ethanol (EverClear). For simplicity sake, I just wrote alcohol. The drying problem is solved with the other oil based ingredients. You can add glycerol if you are so inclined. But Oleic acid, propylene glycol will more than take care of the drying issue. Hell, if you have made your own transdermal, you would know the problem is not dryness. The problem is to get it to dry fast enough. :D We are talking about 10-15 minutes before you can get dressed. lol (I miss those days of brave experimenting with different formulation on your own skin. :D )

Unless you are talking about Biotest's original Androsol... That's a horse with a different color. Them lying bastards. :D 40% absorption rate using ISO only. :rolleyes:
 
jonny21

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I was not referring to the immediate dryness of the skin but the long term effect of applying a solution that is 40% isopropyl alcohol. I personally think phlo-jel ultra is the way to go but none of the board sponsors carry it so I won't push the subject.
Alcohol is the solvent. Even Penetrate has Isopropyl alcohol.

You can use either Isopropyl or ethanol (EverClear). For simplicity sake, I just wrote alcohol. The drying problem is solved with the other oil based ingredients. You can add glycerol if you are so inclined. But Oleic acid, propylene glycol will more than take care of the drying issue. Hell, if you have made your own transdermal, you would know the problem is not dryness. The problem is to get it to dry fast enough. :D We are talking about 10-15 minutes before you can get dressed. lol (I miss those days of brave experimenting with different formulation on your own skin. :D )

Unless you are talking about Biotest's original Androsol... That's a horse with a different color. Them lying bastards. :D 40% absorption rate using ISO only. :rolleyes:
 

BioHazzard

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There is simply no drying effect whatsoever, long or short term. It is simply mitigated by the other ingredients. Like I said, if one just experiments with the formulation, it would be obvious. The biggest problem is oiliness, not dryness.

If you prefer Phlogel, that is fine. But it is wrong to state that alcohol base will cause dryness long term, as the typical TD formulation does not call for using alcohol as the only ingredient. (Unless you are Biotest...) I am willing to bet you that the Penetrate you recommended is at least 30-40% Iso.
 
jonny21

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There is simply no drying effect whatsoever, long or short term. It is simply mitigated by the other ingredients. Like I said, if one just experiments with the formulation, it would be obvious. The biggest problem is oiliness, not dryness.

If you prefer Phlogel, that is fine. But it is wrong to state that alcohol base will cause dryness long term. I am willing to bet you that the Penetrate you recommended is at least 30-40% Iso.
I am sure it is and that is my point. I have used Penetrate and experienced drying.
 

BioHazzard

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Add some Oleic acid and you would never know what dryness is. Absorption will also improve too.

Penetrate is not the end all be all of TD. It is lacking in a couple of ingredients. It is a decent one tho, judging from the ingredients listed. One can enhance it by adding a couple of ingredients, assuming the original product is not BS (ie., does not contain what are listed as ingredients).

Like I said, anyone can roll his own. The formular is out there. My friends and I have experimented with dozens of variations. We have used Iso. We have used ethanol. We even added DMSO. With glycerine, Oleic acid and IPM added, dryness is never a problem. The DMSO may irritate your skin after awhile. Other than that, dryness is the least of all concerns. May be Penetrate just sucks. So, FWIW.....


BTW, I see where you get the dryness from...:D Phlojel Ultra's ad. :D "....PHLOJEL Ultra is a superior base that has only a token amount of alcohol for solubility purposes. Predominantly alcohol based transdermals, over time, will dry the skin and make the transdermal properties less effective...."

The operative word is 'predominantly'. Add a few ingredients and the problem is mitigated.

My biggest peeve with our homebrew TD is oiliness.

P.S. I got nothing against Phlojel Ultra, just don't have the need for it.
 
fatsuperman

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you going to post a few home brew recipes bio hazzard? or do you have any threads with some good suggestions?

how do these stack up against the gold standard these days ...phlo jel?
 

BioHazzard

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There are 2 gold standard recipes out there. One would be the granddaddy of all TD, the Avantlab's formular. That one has been reverse engineered years ago (someone had it analyzed by a lab, needless to say, Caleb dismissed it) and was first published in BB.com. From that, BDC's formular was derived and modified a bit (BDC may claim that he created it from scratch). Those 2 would be the gold standard. The formulae are out there. I don't have them handy, as I have just restored my HD and those files are archived on CDs and I am too lazy to go through them. Didn't someone just post the BDC recipe? I can think of one recipe now and it would most likely be just as good. lol 40% Iso, 35%IPM, 5% OA, 10%OS, 5% propylene glycol, 2.5% dlimonene, 2.5% glycerine.
(The % don't have to be exact. You just need to be careful with the OA, the OS and d-limonene. OA >5% may cause skin lesion. Your skin may be wrecked if you use too much d-limonene.)

If you really want to push the envelop, then pretreat the site with DMSO and then apply the TD. I doubt anything can beat that approach.

Phlojel is marketed (or rumoured, to be more precise) as between 40-60%. That would beat the 40% theorized by Caleb Stone. But in reality, Phlojel is probably anywhere between 5% and 50%, depending on the skin condition and the actives you put in it. That is my educated (aka blind :D ) guess. I don't have anything against Phlojel as it has good feedback. I have yet to see it superior or inferrior to homebrew.

Universal kit claims their Finaderm 75% absorption. Until it is proven, I would be hesitated to accept that.

P.S. Be real careful with DMSO treated site. It may be permeable to all sort of organic chemicals (carcinogen) that you don't want into your body.
 
fatsuperman

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I guess when I said gold standard, it was in reference to the total convienence of phlojel.

From what i gather DMSO done properly can yield marginally better transfer efficiencies that Phlojel. But DMSO has the obvious drawback of the skin irritation, skin penetration by less than desirables (bacteria etc.), and the smell ugggghh!

I tried the pretreat thing, and my ancedotal application to "hard on" test with test base showed it worked!, instantaneously but, with the wierd freaky chemical taste in the mouth... yuk!

The 5 to 50% figure for phlojel comes from an old folks home study where nurses applied it to old dudes in the screen actors guilde old folks home. These nurses I imagine were less than enthusiastic about getting chased around by geezers in wheel chairs (with boners) so I imagine their efforts to achieve maximum xfer effieciency were less than ideal (eg hair removal thin skin areas)

What this study shows is that a 50 % ratio CAN be achieved. T-gel and DMSo have no similar studies that can be scrutinized.

I bet the homebrew formulation that was qouted can do just as well, but after brewing up test base I didn't want to gather up anymore ingredients.

Frankly the transfer effieciency isn't so important as the consistency of it. If I knew I was getting 33% consistently I would opt for any formula because then I could adjust dosage.

As for that ludicros 75% figure for finaderm I don't need to need to comment. Educated people understand what advertising is all about!
 
jonny21

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There are 2 gold standard recipes out there. One would be the granddaddy of all TD, the Avantlab's formular. That one has been reverse engineered years ago (someone had it analyzed by a lab, needless to say, Caleb dismissed it) and was first published in BB.com. From that, BDC's formular was derived and modified a bit (BDC may claim that he created it from scratch). Those 2 would be the gold standard.
I could only piece together what happened to Avant's formula. It looks like they sold it to Dermabolics and from a look at the ingredients in that it appears very similar to Penetrate. Now despite what you state regarding adding Propylene glycol I have found that a Test base transdermal made with Penetrate (Isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol, ocytl salicylate, triglyceride complex, water, d-limonene) left not only a faint white residual (even at a 5% concentration), but dried out the area of application (and they were rotated).
 

BioHazzard

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I could only piece together what happened to Avant's formula. It looks like they sold it to Dermabolics and from a look at the ingredients in that it appears very similar to Penetrate. Now despite what you state regarding adding Propylene glycol I have found that a Test base transdermal made with Penetrate (Isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol, ocytl salicylate, triglyceride complex, water, d-limonene) left not only a faint white residual (even at a 5% concentration), but dried out the area of application (and they were rotated).
I didn't say to add Propylene glycol. Penetrate already has PG in it. I said to add Oleic acid, which is a fatty acid. It enhances penetration.

From your experience, I can only conclude that Penetrate must have a very high alcohol %. Your description matches the exprience we have with Androsol which is 100% Iso.

Penetrate lists the ingredients but they don't tell you the %. You can have 80-90% alcohol, and the rest of the ingredients make up the remaining %. Who knows what the deal is? If it has a drying effect, then it definitely has too high a % in alcohol.

The formular I posted, will guarantee NOT to leave you 'faint white residual'. If anything, people will mostly complain of it being too oily and takes forever to dry. And they would prefer Phlojel better, in that regards. I don't blame them. :D
 

BioHazzard

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I guess when I said gold standard, it was in reference to the total convienence of phlojel.

From what i gather DMSO done properly can yield marginally better transfer efficiencies that Phlojel. But DMSO has the obvious drawback of the skin irritation, skin penetration by less than desirables (bacteria etc.), and the smell ugggghh!

I tried the pretreat thing, and my ancedotal application to "hard on" test with test base showed it worked!, instantaneously but, with the wierd freaky chemical taste in the mouth... yuk!

The 5 to 50% figure for phlojel comes from an old folks home study where nurses applied it to old dudes in the screen actors guilde old folks home. These nurses I imagine were less than enthusiastic about getting chased around by geezers in wheel chairs (with boners) so I imagine their efforts to achieve maximum xfer effieciency were less than ideal (eg hair removal thin skin areas)

What this study shows is that a 50 % ratio CAN be achieved. T-gel and DMSo have no similar studies that can be scrutinized.

I bet the homebrew formulation that was qouted can do just as well, but after brewing up test base I didn't want to gather up anymore ingredients.

Frankly the transfer effieciency isn't so important as the consistency of it. If I knew I was getting 33% consistently I would opt for any formula because then I could adjust dosage.

As for that ludicros 75% figure for finaderm I don't need to need to comment. Educated people understand what advertising is all about!
If you don't want to be bothered with DMSO, and the complication of a full blown recipe, I would go with 60% EverClear, 30% IPM, and 10% OS, and use a 25-30% absorption estimate for dose measurement. To qualify it, I am 'VERY highly confident' of the 25-30% absorption, based on my observation of several dozens of Fina logs that used only Everclear +IPM.
 
Rostam

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If you really want to push the envelop, then pretreat the site with DMSO and then apply the TD. I doubt anything can beat that approach.
What about adding DMSO to the carrier instead of pretreating with DMSO. Would it be any better? Would it be more harmful? Some say not to add the DMSO to your carrier because it will dissolve the chemicals present in the carrier and let them into your body. But preatreating the application site would be the same no? the harmful chemical of the carrier will still get absorbed since they are applied shortly after DMSO treatment and the skin is still permeable. What do you guys think?
 

BioHazzard

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Once you add DMSO in the mix, you can't take it out. IF you use it separately, then if your skin starts to get irritated, you can opt out of using DMSO. I remember spraying a bottle that has DMSO, onto my skin for a couple of weeks and then the whole endeavor became untolerable. My skin would burn like it was on fire for several minutes, after each application. I was screaming in pain. After I stopped the cycle, the skin on my whole chest just peeled off and I got a new layer of skin. :) That was DMSO +1-test. Nasty!!

Your skin may respond differently to different androgen and DMSO mix. To be conservative and not to risk ruining a perfectly fine bottle of homebrew, I would rather use the DMSO separately.
 
Rostam

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My concern regarding adding DMSO to the homebrew was more on toxicity (chemical/carcinogenic agents carried into the body) than skin irritation. I never had skin irritation issue with DMSO (under 10% of the total of my homebrew) exept in a 1T homebrew.
 

BioHazzard

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If you are going to be exposed to carcinogens, I doubt there is any safe way to use DMSO w/o escalating the risk of unwanted absorption.

As for 'harmful chemicals of the carriers'... what harmful chemicals are they? The ingredients used in the TD recipes are not carcinogens. There is a reason that you only use USP grade chemicals. There may be contaminants if you don't use USP grade. Some companies will tell you that they repackage USP grade ingredients into smaller packaging and thus cannot claim USP grade..... So, deal with reputable sources.
 
Rostam

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Thanks.
I'm not going to be exposed to carcinogens (other than what we find in our everyday life). But was worrying about the impure/contaminated carrier. Commercial carrier do not specify if they are USP grade or not and buying "real" USP grade (not repackaged) ingredients may be very expensive. So I was thinking of applying the dmso first, let it dry and then apply the transdermal PH. By doing this I was hoping to be able to avoid some of the impurities/contaminant to penetrate my skin. But I don't know if this is valid or not.What do you think?
 
SJA

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Bio.....have you ever made a TD containing real test base or tren base or bold base? It's a whole different ball game than 1-test or 4AD.

I would suggest checking out Jonny's log. It's a long read but well worth it IMO. Also, I just put up the latest and greatest of all TD formulas for "hard to dissolve" bases. Some of what you suggest above is plausible.....but not practical for all bases.

For example - Penetrate will work for 1-T easily....but don't try using it solo for test base. Same goes for T-gel (my personal stand alone).
 
fatsuperman

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Are we talking about Tren Base minus the ester (acetate), or are we speaking about just using the ground fina pellets.

Does anyone have any experience removing the ester from the fina pellets? I'm curious to find out he a solid method. From what I understand it is much more difficult to get crystals.
 

BioHazzard

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Bio.....have you ever made a TD containing real test base or tren base or bold base? It's a whole different ball game than 1-test or 4AD.

I would suggest checking out Jonny's log. It's a long read but well worth it IMO. Also, I just put up the latest and greatest of all TD formulas for "hard to dissolve" bases. Some of what you suggest above is plausible.....but not practical for all bases.

For example - Penetrate will work for 1-T easily....but don't try using it solo for test base. Same goes for T-gel (my personal stand alone).
I looked at his log briefly. I broke out a cold sweat when he talked about going to the hardware store to get acetone.... But far be it for me to get between people and their happiness if mixing industrial grade chemicals with DMSO is ok with them.

I am not going to go through 12 pages to figure out what he did right or did wrong with his phlogel adventure, for the simple reason that I am happy with my homebrew and have bottles of ingredients sitting around. I am happy for him, that he is happy with the result. There is no practical need for me to mess with Phlogel. As for Penetrate, why bother to figure out what its problems are? I can mix or clone one functioning recipe up right now. I have no use for Penetrate. If it dries your skin and yet does not dissolve well, then there is even more reason not to be bothered with it.

I don't really know what your point is. If you can be more specific, then perhads I can shed some light. If you are just here to say you have the best recipe.. well.. okay, I am happy for ya ...:D Honestly, if I ever feel like mixing Dermabolics with Phlogel and DMSO, I will borrow your recipe.

BTW, are you saying you are having problem dissolving 12 g of t or f base in 240ml of Dermabolics? I have done 12 g of Fina in 240 ml of something similar to Dermabolics as well as something vastly different from Dermabolics. No problem what so ever. Other people have gone with 15g of a mix of 1-t, 4-ad, and fina, in 240ml of Dermabolics. They just warm it up and no problem whatsoever. I have heard of many people putting 12 g of t base in recipe similar to Dermabolics. If you had problem with 12g of t or f base in 240 ml of Dermabolics, then you are the first and only case I have come across.

FWIW, I have read about 2 dozen cases of 12g of Fina in 240 ml of Everclear+IPM, and got 25-30% absorption, vs the injectable. Personally, I would go to the bank with that number any time of the day, b/c 2 dozens of cases provide very good empirical data. People have gone with a lot less.. :D
 

BioHazzard

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Are we talking about Tren Base minus the ester (acetate), or are we speaking about just using the ground fina pellets.

Does anyone have any experience removing the ester from the fina pellets? I'm curious to find out he a solid method. From what I understand it is much more difficult to get crystals.
Some bro posted this... I saved it but don't remember who the good bro is anymore..


"...I would recommend getting some good glassware and an accurate gram/milligram scale before doing such conversions. It really does make the process go more smoothly.

--NaOH preparation--
Accurately weigh 4g of NaOH (pellets) and place them in a 100mL volumetric flask. Add ~75mL of water and allow the pellets to fully dissolve. Dilute the flask to the 100mL mark and mix the solution well.

--Saponification--
In a 400mL beaker, dissolve 4g of tren ace in 100mL of methanol. Using a syringe, draw up 14mL of the NaOH solution and squirt it into the tren-methanol solution. Swirl the beaker for a few seconds, and allow it to stand at room temperature for an hour.

--Crystallization--
Using a syringe, slowly add water to the beaker (while swirling) until the precipitate refuses to redissolve into the solution. At this point, add an additional 3mL of water to the beaker and allow it to stand for an hour. Continue to add 3mL of water every 45 minutes, allowing the solution to stand undisturbed in between the water addition. (This is the longest part of the procedure; it can take many hours).

When a precipitate doesn't form from adding additional water, filter the contents of the beaker through a coffee filter. Rinse the crystals well with water many (~5) times. Allow the crystals to thoroughly dry (~3 days).

I must mention that I have not personally crystallized tren no ester. The MeOH + water method generally works well for steroid hormones, but sometimes oddball substances refuse to play nice. Hopefully, tren no ester is not an oddball substance.

*Note: This procedure is for tren powder. If one is using fina as the starting material, it is necessary to filter out the methyl cellulose binders first before saponification...."
 
SJA

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BTW, are you saying you are having problem dissolving 12 g of t or f base in 240ml of Dermabolics? I have done 12 g of Fina in 240 ml of something similar to Dermabolics as well as something vastly different from Dermabolics. No problem what so ever. Other people have gone with 15g of a mix of 1-t, 4-ad, and fina, in 240ml of Dermabolics. They just warm it up and no problem whatsoever. I have heard of many people putting 12 g of t base in recipe similar to Dermabolics. If you had problem with 12g of t or f base in 240 ml of Dermabolics, then you are the first and only case I have come across.
I'm talking about tren base....not fina. I'm also talking about 100mg/ml not 50mg/ml.......50 is easy. The less carrier that you need....the better IMO.

FWIW, I have read about 2 dozen cases of 12g of Fina in 240 ml of Everclear+IPM, and got 25-30% absorption, vs the injectable. Personally, I would go to the bank with that number any time of the day, b/c 2 dozens of cases provide very good empirical data. People have gone with a lot less..
I'm not sure how they quantified this....but I question it. I'd like to see the data to back this up. If it's true.....then I'm in :D That would be an easy and inexpensive carrier. But I don't believe that the penetration would be all that great.
 

BioHazzard

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We have been using 50mg/ml and that has no solubility problem.

If you insist on stuffing 100mg into each ml and have a problem doing it, then I am sorry to hear that. :D What do you want from me? lol If I could make 100mg soluble into each ml, I would make it so for you. :D You are talking about stuffing 24g into a 240ml mix. I have never heard of that being done. Correction, I have heard about people experimenting with getting 100mg per ml in oil (for injection obviously). But I have yet to come across anyone dissolving that amount in TD. (Then again, I don't get out often...:D )

As for the 25-30% number, well, try using 200-300mg of Fina TD ED... the result should be in the ball park of injecting 75mg ED into your mouse. That is what we observed, FWIW. YMMV.
 
fatsuperman

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Biohazzard doesn't worry about being stingy with his TD carrier because he brews it up himself.

Dosing appears to be an issue at both ends of the spectrum when it comes to mg/ml.

Too little concentration and you run out of good spots to put it on your body. Seems like more than 3 ml starts to be a pain in the ass.

Too concentrated seems to make it difficult to monitor effectivly what you are putting on your body as far as mg a day.

Although the person who wrote the de-esterfying procedure for tren said he had not performed it himself on tren, it does however look like a nice starting point.

Notice how he stated that a scale is a must to get the ratios right, Notice also that he as well puts a time frame on the exposure to NAOH. This mirrors my test prop experience. I love to tinker with stuff. Gonna work on that tomorrow.

I'm not sure how much you gain though by using converting fina (tren acetate) to tren base

Tren Acetate has a molecular weight of 312
Tren Base has a molecular weight of 270

Relative to test base which runs around 288

I'm not sure it is really worth the effort considering the low cost of finaplix.
 

BioHazzard

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Well... I do need to get some more Everclear... and some lime and lemonade/OJ...:D EverClear + OJ + Icecubes = :drunk: As for the rest, I have more than enough for 2 life time.
 
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We have been using 50mg/ml and that has no solubility problem.

If you insist on stuffing 100mg into each ml and have a problem doing it, then I am sorry to hear that. :D What do you want from me? lol If I could make 100mg soluble into each ml, I would make it so for you. :D You are talking about stuffing 24g into a 240ml mix. I have never heard of that being done. Correction, I have heard about people experimenting with getting 100mg per ml in oil (for injection obviously). But I have yet to come across anyone dissolving that amount in TD. (Then again, I don't get out often...:D )
It has been done using T-Gel with tren and test base from my personal experience. Pestal/mortar, heat, patience. :)

As for the 25-30% number, well, try using 200-300mg of Fina TD ED... the result should be in the ball park of injecting 75mg ED into your mouse. That is what we observed, FWIW. YMMV.
The point SJA is making is that data is fact. Anecdotal responses to X amount of Y very vague. I may not respond to X amount of Y the same as someone else does. If I am applying X amount of Y I want to know how much Y is actually being absorbed regardless of anecdotal response.

Someone I know will soon be experimenting with test base in T-Gel. He already has a basline testosterone level for what a 62.5mg (6.25g AndroGel) daily yield him from AndroGel (~10% absorbed).

The test will be a 1.25ml (62.5mg) application of T-Gel at 50mg/ml to see what his test levels are. Not exactly absorbtion rate but a correlative to a (clinically tested) lesser absorbing product. If indeed these OTC/homebrew carriers are more absorbent (greater than the 10% of Androgel) then total test levels should be increased with the same amounts of active applied. I am skeptical but optomistic. More than 10% is surely believeable. Greater than 20% is not expected but we will see.
 
SJA

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We have been using 50mg/ml and that has no solubility problem.

If you insist on stuffing 100mg into each ml and have a problem doing it, then I am sorry to hear that. :D What do you want from me? lol If I could make 100mg soluble into each ml, I would make it so for you. :D You are talking about stuffing 24g into a 240ml mix. I have never heard of that being done. Correction, I have heard about people experimenting with getting 100mg per ml in oil (for injection obviously). But I have yet to come across anyone dissolving that amount in TD. (Then again, I don't get out often...:D )

As for the 25-30% number, well, try using 200-300mg of Fina TD ED... the result should be in the ball park of injecting 75mg ED into your mouse. That is what we observed, FWIW. YMMV.
I prefer to use as little TD carrier as possible. 100mg/Ml is definitely doable. I still question your absorption claims as you do not have bloodwork to back things up.....other than how you feel. I do not have a need for you to mix things for me as I'm well versed in such....but thanks anyway ;)

You have now come across someone (or two) who can get 100mg/ml into a TD successfully. You are now officially "out" :D
 

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Well, ok... I am certainly happy for ya'all :D Bottoms up! lol

The absorption claim is for internal use. Note, neither I nor my friends are selling anything. We tried to figure out how much to dose and we took what we observed and worked backward. Not to be rude, none of us really care if people believe it or not. It is only for our own use. I am just sharing what we have worked with. No one has to believe in or use what we use. (I am sure it is no surprise that none of us is going to invest the time and effort and resources to carry out a scientific research to get you to use the absorption rate. :D . )

As for the comment that absorption rate of t-gel >20% would be a surprise, the coming experiment is of mild interest to me when you have N=1 to begin with.

We got a couple dozen guys who got 15-20 lb gains using 200-300mg tren Ace TD ED. Well, they were getting higher than 10% for sure. For all practical purposes, I think the goal has been achieved. Do we want to discover the best TD recipe or to get the max gain out of Fina TD? If you are a scientist interested in the transdermal delivery of medication, you would want to know the details and the precise absorption. If you are only interested in getting the max benefit of using Fina, then you have reached the goal. There is little else you can change or add that will bump your gain to 30lb per cycle. The only improvement is on the cost side. If you manage to bump absorption rate higher by tweaking the formular, then you get to use less and save some moolah... But you are not going to get 30lb gain. lol Whether you stuff it to 50 mg/ml or 100mg/ml, or whether you use fast drying Phlogel or slow drying homebrew moonshine, you are still looking at the same ceiling of 15-20lb gains, at best. I have seen people achieve that with Everclear +IPM @ 200-300mg ED. IT doesn't matter what else you do, your chances of improving on the gain is really pushing the limit big time.
 
B5150

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EDIT: You know what...nevermind. You are rude and arrogant. I would rather not continue to discuss anything with you.
 

BioHazzard

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What exactly is your point in this whole matter.

Gaining 15-20lbs a cycle, or 30lbs a cycle? There is a whole lot that you can do different that will change your results. How about calories.

No one is selling anything. If people are going to make statements like 25-30% then they need to back it up.

If you want to discuss absorption rate by variable formulas then lets discuss it and provide some means of correclating this with data.

Anecdotal evidence is all that you have. Anecdotal even when N=20 is still worthless.
My point? My point is just to share what I have come across in this area, because someone asked. Do you have a problem with that?

This a forum. I am offering my information. You don't have to believe it nor use it. I don't need to prove anything as I have made it abundantly clear that the information is what it is. I am just offering my experience. I am not making scientific claims. Feel free to take it or leave it.
 

BioHazzard

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EDIT: You know what...nevermind. You are rude and arrogant. I would rather not continue to discuss anything with you.
I have been called worse. You are really breaking my heart.
 
B5150

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Oh, I called you worse, but was kind enough not to post it.

The editted addition of 'you are really breaking my heart' was golden and quite in line with your persona. You got that going for you. You should be real proud of it and yourself, which you obviously already are.

Don't be a prick!
 
SJA

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The absorption claim is for internal use.
I thought that we were talking transdermal here? :think:
Are you saying that you take this internally/orally???

It this what you are referring to???

FWIW, I have read about 2 dozen cases of 12g of Fina in 240 ml of Everclear+IPM, and got 25-30% absorption, vs the injectable. Personally, I would go to the bank with that number any time of the day, b/c 2 dozens of cases provide very good empirical data. People have gone with a lot less..
 

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