How much actually product would you be getting if your using T-gel? In the near future i'd like to use some tren base+Test Base in t-gel (seperate bottles) and i just wanna know how much i'll actually be getting into my system, isn't it like 30%?
Rotate application locations, add chemical penetration enhancers e.g. DMSO, DMFA, D-Limonene, remove hair from application area, exfolliate.What can be done to increase absorption?
Been out of stock for quite a while.
Alcohol is not the best base since it tends to dry skin which decreases absorption. Penetrate is a decent alternative and is available at one of the board sponsors (Nutraplanet). I have never used it but Universalkits also make a carrier. I have some experience with quite a few penetration enhancers, check out my transdermal log for details.Make your own. It is very simple. Even if you just throw together alcohol, IPM, and a few PE, you can get excellent result. Excellent as in result not that different from the complex formular.
Alcohol is the solvent. Even Penetrate has Isopropyl alcohol.
You can use either Isopropyl or ethanol (EverClear). For simplicity sake, I just wrote alcohol. The drying problem is solved with the other oil based ingredients. You can add glycerol if you are so inclined. But Oleic acid, propylene glycol will more than take care of the drying issue. Hell, if you have made your own transdermal, you would know the problem is not dryness. The problem is to get it to dry fast enough. We are talking about 10-15 minutes before you can get dressed. lol (I miss those days of brave experimenting with different formulation on your own skin. )
Unless you are talking about Biotest's original Androsol... That's a horse with a different color. Them lying bastards. 40% absorption rate using ISO only.
I am sure it is and that is my point. I have used Penetrate and experienced drying.There is simply no drying effect whatsoever, long or short term. It is simply mitigated by the other ingredients. Like I said, if one just experiments with the formulation, it would be obvious. The biggest problem is oiliness, not dryness.
If you prefer Phlogel, that is fine. But it is wrong to state that alcohol base will cause dryness long term. I am willing to bet you that the Penetrate you recommended is at least 30-40% Iso.
I could only piece together what happened to Avant's formula. It looks like they sold it to Dermabolics and from a look at the ingredients in that it appears very similar to Penetrate. Now despite what you state regarding adding Propylene glycol I have found that a Test base transdermal made with Penetrate (Isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol, ocytl salicylate, triglyceride complex, water, d-limonene) left not only a faint white residual (even at a 5% concentration), but dried out the area of application (and they were rotated).There are 2 gold standard recipes out there. One would be the granddaddy of all TD, the Avantlab's formular. That one has been reverse engineered years ago (someone had it analyzed by a lab, needless to say, Caleb dismissed it) and was first published in BB.com. From that, BDC's formular was derived and modified a bit (BDC may claim that he created it from scratch). Those 2 would be the gold standard.
I didn't say to add Propylene glycol. Penetrate already has PG in it. I said to add Oleic acid, which is a fatty acid. It enhances penetration.I could only piece together what happened to Avant's formula. It looks like they sold it to Dermabolics and from a look at the ingredients in that it appears very similar to Penetrate. Now despite what you state regarding adding Propylene glycol I have found that a Test base transdermal made with Penetrate (Isopropyl alcohol, propylene glycol, ocytl salicylate, triglyceride complex, water, d-limonene) left not only a faint white residual (even at a 5% concentration), but dried out the area of application (and they were rotated).
If you don't want to be bothered with DMSO, and the complication of a full blown recipe, I would go with 60% EverClear, 30% IPM, and 10% OS, and use a 25-30% absorption estimate for dose measurement. To qualify it, I am 'VERY highly confident' of the 25-30% absorption, based on my observation of several dozens of Fina logs that used only Everclear +IPM.I guess when I said gold standard, it was in reference to the total convienence of phlojel.
From what i gather DMSO done properly can yield marginally better transfer efficiencies that Phlojel. But DMSO has the obvious drawback of the skin irritation, skin penetration by less than desirables (bacteria etc.), and the smell ugggghh!
I tried the pretreat thing, and my ancedotal application to "hard on" test with test base showed it worked!, instantaneously but, with the wierd freaky chemical taste in the mouth... yuk!
The 5 to 50% figure for phlojel comes from an old folks home study where nurses applied it to old dudes in the screen actors guilde old folks home. These nurses I imagine were less than enthusiastic about getting chased around by geezers in wheel chairs (with boners) so I imagine their efforts to achieve maximum xfer effieciency were less than ideal (eg hair removal thin skin areas)
What this study shows is that a 50 % ratio CAN be achieved. T-gel and DMSo have no similar studies that can be scrutinized.
I bet the homebrew formulation that was qouted can do just as well, but after brewing up test base I didn't want to gather up anymore ingredients.
Frankly the transfer effieciency isn't so important as the consistency of it. If I knew I was getting 33% consistently I would opt for any formula because then I could adjust dosage.
As for that ludicros 75% figure for finaderm I don't need to need to comment. Educated people understand what advertising is all about!
What about adding DMSO to the carrier instead of pretreating with DMSO. Would it be any better? Would it be more harmful? Some say not to add the DMSO to your carrier because it will dissolve the chemicals present in the carrier and let them into your body. But preatreating the application site would be the same no? the harmful chemical of the carrier will still get absorbed since they are applied shortly after DMSO treatment and the skin is still permeable. What do you guys think?If you really want to push the envelop, then pretreat the site with DMSO and then apply the TD. I doubt anything can beat that approach.
I looked at his log briefly. I broke out a cold sweat when he talked about going to the hardware store to get acetone.... But far be it for me to get between people and their happiness if mixing industrial grade chemicals with DMSO is ok with them.Bio.....have you ever made a TD containing real test base or tren base or bold base? It's a whole different ball game than 1-test or 4AD.
I would suggest checking out Jonny's log. It's a long read but well worth it IMO. Also, I just put up the latest and greatest of all TD formulas for "hard to dissolve" bases. Some of what you suggest above is plausible.....but not practical for all bases.
For example - Penetrate will work for 1-T easily....but don't try using it solo for test base. Same goes for T-gel (my personal stand alone).
Some bro posted this... I saved it but don't remember who the good bro is anymore..Are we talking about Tren Base minus the ester (acetate), or are we speaking about just using the ground fina pellets.
Does anyone have any experience removing the ester from the fina pellets? I'm curious to find out he a solid method. From what I understand it is much more difficult to get crystals.
"...I would recommend getting some good glassware and an accurate gram/milligram scale before doing such conversions. It really does make the process go more smoothly.
--NaOH preparation--
Accurately weigh 4g of NaOH (pellets) and place them in a 100mL volumetric flask. Add ~75mL of water and allow the pellets to fully dissolve. Dilute the flask to the 100mL mark and mix the solution well.
--Saponification--
In a 400mL beaker, dissolve 4g of tren ace in 100mL of methanol. Using a syringe, draw up 14mL of the NaOH solution and squirt it into the tren-methanol solution. Swirl the beaker for a few seconds, and allow it to stand at room temperature for an hour.
--Crystallization--
Using a syringe, slowly add water to the beaker (while swirling) until the precipitate refuses to redissolve into the solution. At this point, add an additional 3mL of water to the beaker and allow it to stand for an hour. Continue to add 3mL of water every 45 minutes, allowing the solution to stand undisturbed in between the water addition. (This is the longest part of the procedure; it can take many hours).
When a precipitate doesn't form from adding additional water, filter the contents of the beaker through a coffee filter. Rinse the crystals well with water many (~5) times. Allow the crystals to thoroughly dry (~3 days).
I must mention that I have not personally crystallized tren no ester. The MeOH + water method generally works well for steroid hormones, but sometimes oddball substances refuse to play nice. Hopefully, tren no ester is not an oddball substance.
*Note: This procedure is for tren powder. If one is using fina as the starting material, it is necessary to filter out the methyl cellulose binders first before saponification...."
I'm talking about tren base....not fina. I'm also talking about 100mg/ml not 50mg/ml.......50 is easy. The less carrier that you need....the better IMO.BTW, are you saying you are having problem dissolving 12 g of t or f base in 240ml of Dermabolics? I have done 12 g of Fina in 240 ml of something similar to Dermabolics as well as something vastly different from Dermabolics. No problem what so ever. Other people have gone with 15g of a mix of 1-t, 4-ad, and fina, in 240ml of Dermabolics. They just warm it up and no problem whatsoever. I have heard of many people putting 12 g of t base in recipe similar to Dermabolics. If you had problem with 12g of t or f base in 240 ml of Dermabolics, then you are the first and only case I have come across.
I'm not sure how they quantified this....but I question it. I'd like to see the data to back this up. If it's true.....then I'm in That would be an easy and inexpensive carrier. But I don't believe that the penetration would be all that great.FWIW, I have read about 2 dozen cases of 12g of Fina in 240 ml of Everclear+IPM, and got 25-30% absorption, vs the injectable. Personally, I would go to the bank with that number any time of the day, b/c 2 dozens of cases provide very good empirical data. People have gone with a lot less..
It has been done using T-Gel with tren and test base from my personal experience. Pestal/mortar, heat, patience.We have been using 50mg/ml and that has no solubility problem.
If you insist on stuffing 100mg into each ml and have a problem doing it, then I am sorry to hear that. What do you want from me? lol If I could make 100mg soluble into each ml, I would make it so for you. You are talking about stuffing 24g into a 240ml mix. I have never heard of that being done. Correction, I have heard about people experimenting with getting 100mg per ml in oil (for injection obviously). But I have yet to come across anyone dissolving that amount in TD. (Then again, I don't get out often... )
The point SJA is making is that data is fact. Anecdotal responses to X amount of Y very vague. I may not respond to X amount of Y the same as someone else does. If I am applying X amount of Y I want to know how much Y is actually being absorbed regardless of anecdotal response.As for the 25-30% number, well, try using 200-300mg of Fina TD ED... the result should be in the ball park of injecting 75mg ED into your mouse. That is what we observed, FWIW. YMMV.
I prefer to use as little TD carrier as possible. 100mg/Ml is definitely doable. I still question your absorption claims as you do not have bloodwork to back things up.....other than how you feel. I do not have a need for you to mix things for me as I'm well versed in such....but thanks anywayWe have been using 50mg/ml and that has no solubility problem.
If you insist on stuffing 100mg into each ml and have a problem doing it, then I am sorry to hear that. What do you want from me? lol If I could make 100mg soluble into each ml, I would make it so for you. You are talking about stuffing 24g into a 240ml mix. I have never heard of that being done. Correction, I have heard about people experimenting with getting 100mg per ml in oil (for injection obviously). But I have yet to come across anyone dissolving that amount in TD. (Then again, I don't get out often... )
As for the 25-30% number, well, try using 200-300mg of Fina TD ED... the result should be in the ball park of injecting 75mg ED into your mouse. That is what we observed, FWIW. YMMV.
My point? My point is just to share what I have come across in this area, because someone asked. Do you have a problem with that?What exactly is your point in this whole matter.
Gaining 15-20lbs a cycle, or 30lbs a cycle? There is a whole lot that you can do different that will change your results. How about calories.
No one is selling anything. If people are going to make statements like 25-30% then they need to back it up.
If you want to discuss absorption rate by variable formulas then lets discuss it and provide some means of correclating this with data.
Anecdotal evidence is all that you have. Anecdotal even when N=20 is still worthless.
I have been called worse. You are really breaking my heart.EDIT: You know what...nevermind. You are rude and arrogant. I would rather not continue to discuss anything with you.
I thought that we were talking transdermal here? :think:The absorption claim is for internal use.
FWIW, I have read about 2 dozen cases of 12g of Fina in 240 ml of Everclear+IPM, and got 25-30% absorption, vs the injectable. Personally, I would go to the bank with that number any time of the day, b/c 2 dozens of cases provide very good empirical data. People have gone with a lot less..
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