[fatsuperman]

Are we talking about Tren Base minus the ester (acetate), or are we speaking about just using the ground fina pellets.

Does anyone have any experience removing the ester from the fina pellets? I'm curious to find out he a solid method. From what I understand it is much more difficult to get crystals.

[BioHazzard]

Originally Posted by SJA

Bio.....have you ever made a TD containing real test base or tren base or bold base? It's a whole different ball game than 1-test or 4AD.

I would suggest checking out Jonny's log. It's a long read but well worth it IMO. Also, I just put up the latest and greatest of all TD formulas for "hard to dissolve" bases. Some of what you suggest above is plausible.....but not practical for all bases.

For example - Penetrate will work for 1-T easily....but don't try using it solo for test base. Same goes for T-gel (my personal stand alone).

I looked at his log briefly. I broke out a cold sweat when he talked about going to the hardware store to get acetone.... But far be it for me to get between people and their happiness if mixing industrial grade chemicals with DMSO is ok with them.

I am not going to go through 12 pages to figure out what he did right or did wrong with his phlogel adventure, for the simple reason that I am happy with my homebrew and have bottles of ingredients sitting around. I am happy for him, that he is happy with the result. There is no practical need for me to mess with Phlogel. As for Penetrate, why bother to figure out what its problems are? I can mix or clone one functioning recipe up right now. I have no use for Penetrate. If it dries your skin and yet does not dissolve well, then there is even more reason not to be bothered with it.

I don't really know what your point is. If you can be more specific, then perhads I can shed some light. If you are just here to say you have the best recipe.. well.. okay, I am happy for ya ... Honestly, if I ever feel like mixing Dermabolics with Phlogel and DMSO, I will borrow your recipe.

BTW, are you saying you are having problem dissolving 12 g of t or f base in 240ml of Dermabolics? I have done 12 g of Fina in 240 ml of something similar to Dermabolics as well as something vastly different from Dermabolics. No problem what so ever. Other people have gone with 15g of a mix of 1-t, 4-ad, and fina, in 240ml of Dermabolics. They just warm it up and no problem whatsoever. I have heard of many people putting 12 g of t base in recipe similar to Dermabolics. If you had problem with 12g of t or f base in 240 ml of Dermabolics, then you are the first and only case I have come across.

FWIW, I have read about 2 dozen cases of 12g of Fina in 240 ml of Everclear+IPM, and got 25-30% absorption, vs the injectable. Personally, I would go to the bank with that number any time of the day, b/c 2 dozens of cases provide very good empirical data. People have gone with a lot less..

[BioHazzard]

Originally Posted by fatsuperman

Are we talking about Tren Base minus the ester (acetate), or are we speaking about just using the ground fina pellets.

Does anyone have any experience removing the ester from the fina pellets? I'm curious to find out he a solid method. From what I understand it is much more difficult to get crystals.

Some bro posted this... I saved it but don't remember who the good bro is anymore..

"...I would recommend getting some good glassware and an accurate gram/milligram scale before doing such conversions. It really does make the process go more smoothly.

--NaOH preparation--
Accurately weigh 4g of NaOH (pellets) and place them in a 100mL volumetric flask. Add ~75mL of water and allow the pellets to fully dissolve. Dilute the flask to the 100mL mark and mix the solution well.

--Saponification--
In a 400mL beaker, dissolve 4g of tren ace in 100mL of methanol. Using a syringe, draw up 14mL of the NaOH solution and squirt it into the tren-methanol solution. Swirl the beaker for a few seconds, and allow it to stand at room temperature for an hour.

--Crystallization--
Using a syringe, slowly add water to the beaker (while swirling) until the precipitate refuses to redissolve into the solution. At this point, add an additional 3mL of water to the beaker and allow it to stand for an hour. Continue to add 3mL of water every 45 minutes, allowing the solution to stand undisturbed in between the water addition. (This is the longest part of the procedure; it can take many hours).

When a precipitate doesn't form from adding additional water, filter the contents of the beaker through a coffee filter. Rinse the crystals well with water many (~5) times. Allow the crystals to thoroughly dry (~3 days).

I must mention that I have not personally crystallized tren no ester. The MeOH + water method generally works well for steroid hormones, but sometimes oddball substances refuse to play nice. Hopefully, tren no ester is not an oddball substance.

*Note: This procedure is for tren powder. If one is using fina as the starting material, it is necessary to filter out the methyl cellulose binders first before saponification...."

[SJA]

BTW, are you saying you are having problem dissolving 12 g of t or f base in 240ml of Dermabolics? I have done 12 g of Fina in 240 ml of something similar to Dermabolics as well as something vastly different from Dermabolics. No problem what so ever. Other people have gone with 15g of a mix of 1-t, 4-ad, and fina, in 240ml of Dermabolics. They just warm it up and no problem whatsoever. I have heard of many people putting 12 g of t base in recipe similar to Dermabolics. If you had problem with 12g of t or f base in 240 ml of Dermabolics, then you are the first and only case I have come across.

I'm talking about tren base....not fina. I'm also talking about 100mg/ml not 50mg/ml.......50 is easy. The less carrier that you need....the better IMO.

FWIW, I have read about 2 dozen cases of 12g of Fina in 240 ml of Everclear+IPM, and got 25-30% absorption, vs the injectable. Personally, I would go to the bank with that number any time of the day, b/c 2 dozens of cases provide very good empirical data. People have gone with a lot less..

I'm not sure how they quantified this....but I question it. I'd like to see the data to back this up. If it's true.....then I'm in That would be an easy and inexpensive carrier. But I don't believe that the penetration would be all that great.

[BioHazzard]

We have been using 50mg/ml and that has no solubility problem.

If you insist on stuffing 100mg into each ml and have a problem doing it, then I am sorry to hear that. What do you want from me? lol If I could make 100mg soluble into each ml, I would make it so for you. You are talking about stuffing 24g into a 240ml mix. I have never heard of that being done. Correction, I have heard about people experimenting with getting 100mg per ml in oil (for injection obviously). But I have yet to come across anyone dissolving that amount in TD. (Then again, I don't get out often... )

As for the 25-30% number, well, try using 200-300mg of Fina TD ED... the result should be in the ball park of injecting 75mg ED into your mouse. That is what we observed, FWIW. YMMV.

[fatsuperman]

BTW
Biohazzard doesn't worry about being stingy with his TD carrier because he brews it up himself.

Dosing appears to be an issue at both ends of the spectrum when it comes to mg/ml.

Too little concentration and you run out of good spots to put it on your body. Seems like more than 3 ml starts to be a pain in the ass.

Too concentrated seems to make it difficult to monitor effectivly what you are putting on your body as far as mg a day.

Although the person who wrote the de-esterfying procedure for tren said he had not performed it himself on tren, it does however look like a nice starting point.

Notice how he stated that a scale is a must to get the ratios right, Notice also that he as well puts a time frame on the exposure to NAOH. This mirrors my test prop experience. I love to tinker with stuff. Gonna work on that tomorrow.

I'm not sure how much you gain though by using converting fina (tren acetate) to tren base

Tren Acetate has a molecular weight of 312
Tren Base has a molecular weight of 270

Relative to test base which runs around 288

I'm not sure it is really worth the effort considering the low cost of finaplix.

[BioHazzard]

Well... I do need to get some more Everclear... and some lime and lemonade/OJ... EverClear + OJ + Icecubes = As for the rest, I have more than enough for 2 life time.

[Heat Miser]

Originally Posted by BioHazzard

We have been using 50mg/ml and that has no solubility problem.

If you insist on stuffing 100mg into each ml and have a problem doing it, then I am sorry to hear that. What do you want from me? lol If I could make 100mg soluble into each ml, I would make it so for you. You are talking about stuffing 24g into a 240ml mix. I have never heard of that being done. Correction, I have heard about people experimenting with getting 100mg per ml in oil (for injection obviously). But I have yet to come across anyone dissolving that amount in TD. (Then again, I don't get out often... )

It has been done using T-Gel with tren and test base from my personal experience. Pestal/mortar, heat, patience.

As for the 25-30% number, well, try using 200-300mg of Fina TD ED... the result should be in the ball park of injecting 75mg ED into your mouse. That is what we observed, FWIW. YMMV.

The point SJA is making is that data is fact. Anecdotal responses to X amount of Y very vague. I may not respond to X amount of Y the same as someone else does. If I am applying X amount of Y I want to know how much Y is actually being absorbed regardless of anecdotal response.

Someone I know will soon be experimenting with test base in T-Gel. He already has a basline testosterone level for what a 62.5mg (6.25g AndroGel) daily yield him from AndroGel (~10% absorbed).

The test will be a 1.25ml (62.5mg) application of T-Gel at 50mg/ml to see what his test levels are. Not exactly absorbtion rate but a correlative to a (clinically tested) lesser absorbing product. If indeed these OTC/homebrew carriers are more absorbent (greater than the 10% of Androgel) then total test levels should be increased with the same amounts of active applied. I am skeptical but optomistic. More than 10% is surely believeable. Greater than 20% is not expected but we will see.

[SJA]

Originally Posted by BioHazzard

We have been using 50mg/ml and that has no solubility problem.

If you insist on stuffing 100mg into each ml and have a problem doing it, then I am sorry to hear that. What do you want from me? lol If I could make 100mg soluble into each ml, I would make it so for you. You are talking about stuffing 24g into a 240ml mix. I have never heard of that being done. Correction, I have heard about people experimenting with getting 100mg per ml in oil (for injection obviously). But I have yet to come across anyone dissolving that amount in TD. (Then again, I don't get out often... )

As for the 25-30% number, well, try using 200-300mg of Fina TD ED... the result should be in the ball park of injecting 75mg ED into your mouse. That is what we observed, FWIW. YMMV.

I prefer to use as little TD carrier as possible. 100mg/Ml is definitely doable. I still question your absorption claims as you do not have bloodwork to back things up.....other than how you feel. I do not have a need for you to mix things for me as I'm well versed in such....but thanks anyway

You have now come across someone (or two) who can get 100mg/ml into a TD successfully. You are now officially "out"

[BioHazzard]

Well, ok... I am certainly happy for ya'all Bottoms up! lol

The absorption claim is for internal use. Note, neither I nor my friends are selling anything. We tried to figure out how much to dose and we took what we observed and worked backward. Not to be rude, none of us really care if people believe it or not. It is only for our own use. I am just sharing what we have worked with. No one has to believe in or use what we use. (I am sure it is no surprise that none of us is going to invest the time and effort and resources to carry out a scientific research to get you to use the absorption rate. . )

As for the comment that absorption rate of t-gel >20% would be a surprise, the coming experiment is of mild interest to me when you have N=1 to begin with.

We got a couple dozen guys who got 15-20 lb gains using 200-300mg tren Ace TD ED. Well, they were getting higher than 10% for sure. For all practical purposes, I think the goal has been achieved. Do we want to discover the best TD recipe or to get the max gain out of Fina TD? If you are a scientist interested in the transdermal delivery of medication, you would want to know the details and the precise absorption. If you are only interested in getting the max benefit of using Fina, then you have reached the goal. There is little else you can change or add that will bump your gain to 30lb per cycle. The only improvement is on the cost side. If you manage to bump absorption rate higher by tweaking the formular, then you get to use less and save some moolah... But you are not going to get 30lb gain. lol Whether you stuff it to 50 mg/ml or 100mg/ml, or whether you use fast drying Phlogel or slow drying homebrew moonshine, you are still looking at the same ceiling of 15-20lb gains, at best. I have seen people achieve that with Everclear +IPM @ 200-300mg ED. IT doesn't matter what else you do, your chances of improving on the gain is really pushing the limit big time.

[Heat Miser]

EDIT: You know what...nevermind. You are rude and arrogant. I would rather not continue to discuss anything with you.

[BioHazzard]

Originally Posted by B5150

What exactly is your point in this whole matter.

Gaining 15-20lbs a cycle, or 30lbs a cycle? There is a whole lot that you can do different that will change your results. How about calories.

No one is selling anything. If people are going to make statements like 25-30% then they need to back it up.

If you want to discuss absorption rate by variable formulas then lets discuss it and provide some means of correclating this with data.

Anecdotal evidence is all that you have. Anecdotal even when N=20 is still worthless.

My point? My point is just to share what I have come across in this area, because someone asked. Do you have a problem with that?

This a forum. I am offering my information. You don't have to believe it nor use it. I don't need to prove anything as I have made it abundantly clear that the information is what it is. I am just offering my experience. I am not making scientific claims. Feel free to take it or leave it.

[Heat Miser]

Thanks for everything.

[BioHazzard]

Originally Posted by B5150

EDIT: You know what...nevermind. You are rude and arrogant. I would rather not continue to discuss anything with you.

I have been called worse. You are really breaking my heart.

[Heat Miser]

Oh, I called you worse, but was kind enough not to post it.

The editted addition of 'you are really breaking my heart' was golden and quite in line with your persona. You got that going for you. You should be real proud of it and yourself, which you obviously already are.

Don't be a prick!