From Cap-HP in a tub to Cap-HP as a Spray?
- 05-07-2006, 04:19 PM
From Cap-HP in a tub to Cap-HP as a Spray?
That title pretty much speaks for itself. Let me fill you in though. I recently (about a month or two ago) saw some decent results when applying Cap-HP before my Lipoderm-Ultra in terms of spot reducing my problem areas. I have some Pgf2a on the way, which I plan on adding to my Lipo-U. It should work well without going systematic. I have added clen to my Lipo-U before and noticed no systematic sides from it (i.e., elevated heart rate, shakes, ect.).
That being said, instead of applying my Cap-HP out of the tube, I want to spray it on -- hence the title of this thread. If compounded right, the spray should provide a consistent and even application. Cap-HP by itself will NOT penetrate the dermis. To fix this problem slightly and help aid in the penetration process before Lipo-U is applied (with the added Pgf2a), I'm going to add a little DMSO and/or ISO.A, ALO, and H20. The only problem is I'm a little unsure as to how these other ingredients will effect the Cap-HP. I'm also not sure how much, in terms of volume per tub of Cap, I should make; 4oz to 16oz for instance. & this is where I was hoping to get some help.
The tub of Cap-HP is 1.5oz @ .1% Capsaicin (active ingredient). Its ingredients consist of BA, cetyl alcohol, glyceryl stearate, isopropyl acohol, PEG-40 stearate, petrolatum, sorbitol, & water.
This is a recipe for Yohim HCL:
- 48% aloe
- 25% water
- 15% menthol(in alcohol) solution
- 10% PG
- 2% DMSO
- Y-hcl 3.5g for 1month supply...
But the total volume of this particular recipe was never mentioned (i.e., how many ounces it is). I was going to take from this recipe and make my Cap-HP spray. My initial questions still exist; how much and will these ingredients effect the CAP.
Any information regarding this issue will be greatly appreciated. There are some smart guys here at this board, I know this. Lets see what you have to say.
- 05-07-2006, 04:47 PM
I found this info in an older thread:
By Rogue Drone:
I use a 30% DMSO and water
First off DMSO should not be used as a carrier. It is an effective penetration enhancer and should be used 10 mins prior application of trans and 30 mins after to pull through residue. The link provide was for topical not transdermal carriers but most of the principles still apply. You could use dmso in the trans itself at a rate of upto 20%, 10% is probably sufficient. Old transdermal products used 40% even upto 80% but they were using dmso as the carrier. Isopropyl Alcohol is often used as a carrier or you can use carbomer 940/934 if you want a gel. I think there was another chemical to add to the carbomer to get the consistency you desire but I can't recall it at the moment.
As for other penetration enhancers you can use DMFA, oleic acid, and octyl salicylate. Some people confuse d-limonene as a PE but it's oil from citrus rinds and functions as a solvent and as a substitute for propylene glycol which is used to retain moisture in the skin. D-limonene may also have a citrus smell to mask the smell of lower quality dmso.
- 05-08-2006, 12:50 AM
lol, 16 views and no replys. No one care to comment? No one have any personal experience they would like to share? Where is all the "know it alls."
If you guys arnt using Cap-HP in conjuntion with your TD spot reducers, I strongly suggest you reconsider.
I'm off to Avant to find my answers.
05-08-2006, 10:55 AM
05-08-2006, 03:35 PM
lol, you ass ...Originally Posted by MaynardMeek
I'm over it. Apparently know how has the knowledge to answer these questions ... I know I certainly don't, otherwise I wouldn't have asked. So its all good. It's unfortunate, however.
PS: I'm going to go ahead and compound my spray. Taking the information given by "ersatz" that I dug up:
I'm going to make an 8oz spray. This should be sufficient ... 10% DMSO, 10%IsoA, 10% Alo, 20% Cap-HP (roughly), & 50% H20.Originally Posted by ersatz
05-08-2006, 03:50 PM
I think you'd be wasting time trying to make the spray. If you are using a source of capsaicin (extracted) then making a spray is more of a possibility. Still, Cap-Hp does get absorbed into the skin quite effectively on its own and doesn't seem to go systemic at all. Even with a spray you still need to rub the stuff into your skin for it to be really effective, so what will be the difference then? You can always add capsaicin to the lipoderm instead, that method is very effective too.
05-08-2006, 06:05 PM
All right ... now we're getting some where. Finally I repeatable reply. Thank you.Originally Posted by tsc
That being said, however, all the information I have gathered seems to suggest that Cap-HP will not penetrate the dermis very well, if at al, and if it where to it is speculated the penetration would be minimal and not very deep; this coming from respected members of the Avant community. We have to also remember that Lipo-U will be applied with 10min after administering the spray, so there is really no sense in mixing the cap & Lipo. Besides, the lipo will contain Pgf2a.
Normally, I would simply take the Cap from the tube, apply it an area, rub in, and immediately after washing my hands I would then apply the Lipo-U. This worked fine except for the aftermath of it all (i.e., burning sensation in the palms of the hand after application and any time something warm or hot is touched). This "after math, as I called it -- a simple side effect I guess, isn't really a big deal. There is no pain or anything involved, but I would say it is rather annoying. Thus the idea to compound the Cap-HP (an arthritis cream) into a liquid spray.
The addition of DMSO & Iso.A should not only improve the Caps absorption rate, but also prime the skin and allow for better delivery of the Lipo-U/Pgf2a. At least this is what all the information suggests that I have run a crossed in the last 6months or so.
05-09-2006, 12:07 AM
a few points to think about:
1) if Cap-Hp and the like products didn't penetrate well they wouldn't be on the market still. Think about why they are normally used. The effect is not for the surface of the skin.
2) You are considering making a liquid from a cream that is at most .1 % of the active you want. The other 99.9% is filler that you are trying to dilute into a sprayable form. The "filler" was designed for transdermal absorption of capsaicin. Diluted down in might not amount to anything.
3) buy some cheap latex gloves to apply whatever method you end up with. Capsaicin burns like crap, and it doesn't wash off with soap or water easily (alcohol will work). best to never get it on your hands anyway. If you have any capsaicin on your skin (which is the point anyway) and you apply lipoderm your hands will get just as much of a burning sensation.
If you read the original thread on avant (I supposed it is now found on the m&m site (??)I outlined how to extract cap from "Pure Cap" I little time to do it, but its cheaper than anything else out there, and once done can be added directly to lipoderm without effecting the mix of the product.
05-09-2006, 02:31 AM
Nicely put ... & yes, Cap burns light a mug the first couple of applications. I found it interestingly bearable in as little as the third application. My first experience with the stuff honestly left me contemplating 911. I was in excruciating pain. New users beware.Originally Posted by tsc
As for the rubber gloves, I have them. Don't ask me why I don't use them. I didn't even use them to cap my DNP and as a result (like a dumbass) I have still have yellow hands 4-5 days later. I guess with as many applications as Pgf2a needs daily and since I plan to use the cap in conjunction with this Lipo/pgf2a, I would be going through quite a bit of gloves which seems wasteful. That and I'm a lazy son of a ...
Also, I honestly couldn't imagine why Cap-HP (sold as an arthritis cream) wouldn't penetrate the dermis. If it didn't, as you said it wouldn't be marketable. But that is what I have been told but some of the industry transdermal experts. Naturally, you think "why argue" & I'm not a science buff, so I simply took their word for it. Your words definitely got me thinking though.
That being said, I went ahead and compounded an 8oz mixture of the Cap-Hp cream. The ingredients are cheap & if needed I can always buy more. No harm, no foul. 15% DMSO, 15% Iso.A., 20% Cap-HP, and 50% water. I had no ALO so it was left out of the mix. I'll just have to moisturize between applications. It only took a few minutes and all the ingredients came together quite well.
I'm going to make an after spray to deal with left over residue. It will simply consist of DMSO, Iso.A., & H20. This will be used sparingly. I really dont like the thought of using so much DMSO and Iso.A.
Anyway ... I appreciate your response TSC. Thank you. It's good to see someone with a little common sense taking the time to give sound advice and putting things into perspective. I'm going to back track and questions these "experts."
05-09-2006, 10:07 AM
see when i reply.. everyone comes! I am the water.. no.. be i the sun of life that brushes onto dead threads.. and yay in my greatness i bringth forth doth thou thread....in my mercy....
05-10-2006, 02:04 PM
your makin it a little too hard.....the question is why?....its easier just to sqirt the transdermal in your hand and mix (or spray on) and rub in the cap
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