using Niacin in/with homebrews……
- 11-02-2002, 02:25 PM
using Niacin in/with homebrews……
....I have been doing some research on Niacin (Vitamin B3).
I found that Niacin causes increased blood flow to the skin by dilating the skin's microcirculation, a network of small capillaries near the surface of the skin, to provide oxygen and nutrition to the tissue cells and take away metabolic waste.
I was turned on to Niacin about 8 months ago and have been taking 500mg just before my workout. I chew the tablet and drink water. It’s not bad tasting, just a little gritty. It causes my skin to get red, tingly, and itchy (this is the flushing affect). It works best on an empty stomach.
It gets the blood flowing and makes for a great workout. I also did some research on indoor tanning lotions that have a “Tingle Factor”. I bought some and used it and it caused my skin to get real hot and itchy (it makes for a great tan also). These tanning lotions have some form of rubefacients that cause blood to flow to the surface of the skin.
I started chewing up 1 500mg tablet just before I applied my homebrew. It’s only been a week but it feels like my formula (I’m using a homebrew fina) is really getting into the bloodstream quickly. I was also reading that to make a topical solution of Niacin, you can crush up niacinamide (Niacin, B3) tablets into powder or buy niaciamide capsules to get the powder or just buy niaciamide powder. Then you can mix this powder into 100% aloe vera gel. This can be applied to only the areas that your AS or PH solution will be applied. Or, what about adding the crushed Niacin into the homebrew? I’m not sure of the mgs that would need to be added to the formula.
Any feedback or comments would be great!
- 11-02-2002, 02:49 PM
Good information, Niacin also helps reduce cholesterol. If you do not like the itching and tingling with Niacin, take an appirin with it....
- 11-02-2002, 02:56 PM
wow I never thought of that....well...time for me to go to my local pharmacy...and get me some niacin.
11-02-2002, 05:08 PM
Very good post! If it increases the circulation in the skin the absorption should be increased similiarly to heating your transdermal (also increases circulation locally). Let's get a few bros to try this out and report back!
I'm going to Wal-mart now to get some niacin...
11-03-2002, 04:53 AM
could you include it in the brew itself? or would that not work.
11-03-2002, 05:16 AM
seems like increasing absorption of ph's and taking the most advantage of transdermal application is endless. im hearing and learning new ideas everyday man...this good stuff. understand all these methods wont dramtically better absorption but all the little things help uknow
11-03-2002, 05:30 AM
If the molecules were small enough, they could be absorbed through the skin - but where the hell do you get niacin in powder form?
11-03-2002, 09:30 AM
The tanning lotion that I got has some ingredients that cause the area of application to get warm, and increase circulation. The idea is to get the blood flowing, the pores more clear, which allows better tanning (tanning salon style).
They recommend that one put on transdermal after shower cuz the skin is warm, and absorption would be higher. Any ingredients that does similar would be a neat idea...
11-06-2002, 11:38 PM
Fishbonz, why you may not want to train with niacin
I remember a while back I received some questions of whether or not one should supplement with Niacin, which has been touted as a performance enhancer for two and a half decades now. My usual reply, and I stick to that, is that its better to supplement with a total B-vitamin complex of 50-100 mg potency once or twice a day. Now just recently I received an email from someone asking me about a study a friend of him referred to on the use of Vitamin B3 (Niacin or Nicotinic acid) as a workout enhancer. I went and looked up the study¹, and here are my conclusions.
The purpose of this study was to assess how selected physiological and performance responses are affected when the normal increase in plasma free fatty acid concentration during exercise is blunted by ingesting nicotinic acid. It did so by using four randomly selected groups in a double-blind study. One group used a placebo drink (water), the second used water with 280 mg of Niacin added , the third group consumed a 6% carbohydrate and electrolyte drink and the last group used the same but again with Niacin added to it. The results clearly showed that both groups using the Niacin blunted a rise in Free Fatty acid (FFA) concentration. The low FFA levels corresponded with a 300 to 600% increase in the release of Human growth Hormone. And this was what the email I got was raving about.
However if we examine the study further, it also showed some other interesting details. The Niacin only group showed a significant decrease in exercise performance compared to the placebo group, a decrease of about 8% and an even greater decrease (21%) compared to the carb/electrolyte only group. The group that used the carbs and electrolytes plus the Niacin did improve on the placebo group, but had decreased peak performances compared to the carb and electrolyte only group. This could have correlated with the lower free fatty acid levels as high FFA levels are usually associated with exercise induced stress. Because of the high correlation it may be that FFA levels are a response to lower energy resources in the body, and consequently a drop in performance is noted when this response is decreased.
Now to the supposed GH benefits. First of all, to those who believe in GH supplements, I urge you to read on and carefully examine the next section of this article. But lets say we still believe in the benefits of hGH. The study used 280 mg of Niacin and it was administered every 15 minutes starting 15 minutes before the exercise and ending 15 minutes after the exercise. First of all the risk of toxicity would be high. Now toxic levels are in the neighborhood of 1500 mg. This is usually not a problem because common doses are usually 50 mg once a day to 500 mg twice a day and B3 is readily excreted in urine. So toxical effects are unlikely, but he we are talking a minimum of 6 doses of 280 over a short period of time which would definitely take you over the 1500 mark in no time. So not too healthy. On top of that Niacin supplementation can cause severe discomfort in high doses and as shown it decreases exercise performance when taken so close to a workout, so it would negatively impact your training. As a result, even if the GH increase was of any real benefit, it would have been negated by poor training.
What this does teach us, in the positive sense however, is that supplementing with carb/electrolyte drinks every 15 minutes during a workout can increase performance, recovery and glycogen replenishment. This is not surprising since the study was sponsored by Gatorade.
Also to put the notion out that B3 is somehow a magical supplement, I added in another study done on Vitamin B6² (pyridoxine) that shows it too has a result on increasing growth hormone release, albeit smaller. This one also shows it may reduce prolactin and speed up recovery. I guess the point I'm making here is that B-vitamins are very alike in action and also very synergistic. Therefore there is more benefit to be had from supplementing with a complete B-complex vitamin that supplies 50-100 mg of each, and preferably after or during a meal and not around exercise time since B-vitamins aid in digestive processes and comport themselves as enzymes in a great deal of body functions.
(Peter Van Mol, bodybuilding.com)
11-10-2002, 06:11 AM
I notice that the article by Van Mol aslo
contains links to adds for B-complex
I doubt that you will see niacin touted by
itself by purveyors of BB supplements, and/or their writers, due to the fact that it is both easy to get and dirt cheap.
In any event, the purpose of Niacin in the
context of this thread is to use the flush
to enhance PH absorption into the blood
This means taking enough Niacin to cause the flush. Also, aspirin should
not be taken at this time because the
flush is what you are looking for. Plain
niacin, as opposed to Niacinimide or
Timed Release Niacin is what is needed
here. The other forms are attempts to minimize the flush, which some find uncomfortable. Personally, I am fine with the flush. In fact I find it helps my energy, especially with several cups of
coffee...better than coffee alone.
When I get my T1, I will try it for
11-22-2002, 04:01 AM
I received my T1 and find that the Niacin
flush is not practical to use with the T1
in that the flush is not that predictable
as to exactly when it will hit.
If I wait for the flush, I have to reheat the T1. I might get it timed right ocassionally, but it would be more trouble
and not always possible to take the time.
11-22-2002, 07:00 AM
Ahhh..but I bring other news about Niacin. Supposedly, based on some bros at 'bolex, it reduces cholesterol. Now when we run anti-e's, they mess with our cholesterol levels. According to I believe FLEX over there:
naicin fush free-------don't get the time released or extended **** just the plain old simple naicin flush free(500mg caps)its natural and you can get it anywhere
you take the doseage on the way to bed at night and no sooner,you also take 1 asprin with it and go to bed
you start the first 2 days at 500mg's,then 1000mg's for the next 3 days and then 1500mg's a day from then on out---NO HIGHER
in 90 days it lowered mine 70 points,raised my good up 20 points,lowered my bad 15 points------got all counts back to normal except the tri's which where 10 over normal and wasn't a concern from the doc because of the calories i was consuming
ok now,i have had 6 other people around me try this that was having trouble and was fixing to go on meds and it dropped ALL 6 people's count down------only 1 hasn't gotten it down enough YET but he's watching it for another 30 days and is going to see if it drops it to normal even though it DID decrease it by 49 points all ready
11-22-2002, 08:09 AM
Great info Wardog! Man I'm glad your back around.
11-22-2002, 08:36 AM
Thanks win. I am going to try this my next cycle. I know this last one my BP jacked bigtime, and I suspect it was because of the 17-AA's and all the anti-Es. I know AAS screw up the cholesterol and anti _e's just make it worse..so I am hoping niacin may help that..which may positively impact the blood pressure while on cycle.
We will see.
11-22-2002, 07:10 PM
11-23-2002, 11:30 AM
I would say that ANYTHING that significantly reduces estrogen levels will screw up your lipid profile. I cannot see where it would hurt.
If you want to know for yourself, just while on cycle go to a wal-mart or drug store every 3 days or so and get a BP reading from one of those machines. Keep track of "on cycle" and post cycle. See what you find out.
11-24-2002, 12:17 AM
12-11-2002, 09:17 AM
I think the forum down time zapped my previous post on this, so I will restate it.
There has been some interest in using
niacin for its vasodilator properties with
I turns out that there is a topical form similar in effect. Methyl Nicotinate, used
in analgesic cream and liniments can cause the flushing where applied also. This would be useful of TDs.
There is a product marketed at BB.com
that contains this:
This probuct uses 1% in their formulation. There are also other ingredients in the BB.com product that
may make the above product unsuitable for use with TDs.
This stuff is probably
pretty strong so a little would go a long way. I do not know if it would
be toxic or a skin irritant, but since it
is used in preperations rubbed on the skin it probably isn't. I don't know if
it would be bad if absorbed into the blood stream either.
I have not found a place that offers
Methyl Nicotinate for sale and believe
this probably would be obtained through a chemical supply company.
Maybe BDC knows where this could be obtained.
12-11-2002, 01:18 PM
I asked Par Deus about methyl nicotinate on BB.com.
quote:Originally posted by Monte Cristo
Have you ever thought of using a topical
vasodilator such as methyl nicotinate to
increase local circulation to the area you
apply the product to?
Wrote this of HST, in regard to the same Q on niacin:
I don't think it would help, because the androgen will already partition into the bloodstream and be taken away readily (and we know this because basically all of an active is taken up by the bloodstream before it gets the chance diffuse into deep tissues, under normal conditions, so the backup (i.e. rate limiting step) is not happening here.
It happens in the aqeous layers of the dermis, which obviously are not conducive to the diffusion of a lipophilic androgen.
12-11-2002, 01:24 PM
Based on Par's response, it seems that niacin may be beneficial in a transdermal joint formula. With a joint transdermal carrier, we are trying to target the “deep tissues.” This my also apply to the yohimbine homebrew.
12-11-2002, 01:42 PM
Could be Bow. Now, if BDC could help find a source for Methyl Nicotinate, it
could be tried. The reason I mention BDC
is that he orders Chemical a lot and I don't find one myself. Maybe he would
I think the nicotinate would be applicable
to a TD better than Niacin. The beauty
of it is that it causes the flush where you
12-11-2002, 03:03 PM
What Par is saying in his reply basically amounts to the diffusion is the rate limiting step and not the uptake once it is eventually absorbed. In other words, once it gets in the body the current level of circulation is pretty effective at absorbing the PH and any increase may be of little value. I'm of the opinion that anything that can be done to increase uptake is desireable regardless of net return on absorption gain. Even if it only helps a few percent it will be worth it...
As for locating a reliable vendor for the MN I will look into it but may be hard to justify for the supplementation industry.
12-11-2002, 03:18 PM
"..As for locating a reliable vendor for the MN I will look into it but may be hard to justify for the supplementation industry."
Thanks for looking into it BDC.
As to justification, I suggest
that you approach it as for use in an analgesic or liniment type application. There many products like that that use that ingredient. Also, it is used in tanning products. I also linked a BB.com
product they market as a vasodilator and
pre-warmup or pump inhancer.
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